You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - An Interview With The Great Fred Hersch

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Adam and Peter interview Fred Hersch about his new course on Open Studio.  You can find the new course here. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey Peter. Yo. Yo, it's Just Friends today. Oh, man. I'm still on Cloud 9 from that discussion. I know. I love it. Just Friends.

We got a very special friend today. I'm Adamannis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you'll listen to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Jazz Explained. Man, we got a good one today. We have a great one today. Usually they're okay.

Well, usually we're talking about how we think they're going to be. We've already done the episode today. So now we can brag. Yeah. We can flap our proverbial wings a little bit. You know, we can, what is the peacock? to you when it primps its tail out. Flutters.

I don't know. I don't know. We've got the great Fred Hirsch on the show today. We had such a great talk with Fred. He's got a brand new open studio course called Just Friends, the Art of the Duo that features clarinetist Anach Cohen. Ever heard of her? Basist Drew Gress and vocalist Gabrielle Stravelli.

But I digress. We, we, we, we, sorry. You do Gress. But we had a great chat with Fred. Yeah. We're so excited to present this. Always. illuminating and

let's just jump right into it. Without further ado, Fred Hirsch. We are delighted to be joined today by the illustrious, the illuminus, the wonderful, tasteful doctor of solo and duo and trio and beyond piano.

Mr. Fred Hirsch, what's up, Fred, how are you? Hey, how's it going out there? Good, good. So good to see you. We are excited today to talk to you specifically. We always have so many things to talk about. But we love you being part of the Open Studio family because we know there's always that next time to talk.

But today we're talking specifically about your brand new course, which I know how this goes. It's like when you make records, I got to remind you of what it was because you did it a while ago and you might have moved on a little bit, but it's just friends, the art of the duo. And it's such a cool thing. And I thought we could just sort of jump right in. And I'd love to know kind of and just talk about how you came to this subject. Because your first course for us was, of course,

thoughts and experience on solo piano, a deep dive into something that you're really well known for, your solo playing. But this one, you chose the topic of duo playing, and how did that come about exactly? Well, I think in my discography, I have more duo albums than either solo or trio albums. I've done a lot of duos with horn players,

you know, vocalists, all kinds of guitar. It's a format that actually when I was a music student in the 70s at New England Conservatory, there wasn't really a fantastic school rhythm section. But I would be, there was a whole row of piano studios, and I would be in a piano studio doing whatever it was I was doing, and somebody would walk by with a saxophone. I'd just say, come on there, you know, or another pianist. There were always two pianists.

Come in and let's play do it. And then I really got into it. I did for about 13 years, I did an annual weekly series at the Jazz Standard, New York, called the Frederick Invitation Series. And mostly duos, so if you do the math, 13 years, probably 40 or 50 different guests, some of whom, like Anat Cohen and Julian Lodge and Miguel Senan, we have gone on to continue to have a music, relationship. We play together where we can. Some of them, frankly, you know, I was curious, what would you like to play with this person? And it was fine, but probably not anything that I wanted to do again. But I've always felt that, you know, there's kind of the term accompanist, which is maybe more traditionally in a, with a vocalist, you know, would say accompanist. But I really

prefer the idea of a partner. And for instance, with vocalists now, the only way that I'll play with a vocalist is in a duo. I'm not going to play with a trio backing a singer. That's just something I did, and I've just moved on. But if I'm playing with a great singer who's responsive and we're really creating something together, or horn player or guitar player or whoever it is, bassist, it's very rewarding. get to use the whole piano. I get to play solo. I get to be kind of a big band, an orchestra. You know, I can use the extreme outer parts of the piano. They could be in the middle. They go up, I go down. You know, there's all this kind of orchestration possibility with two instruments as long as the other instrumentalist or vocalist is a deep listener and is flexible.

And I just don't feel like I'm being a play-along record and they're just shredding. you know, that's really not that much fun. So all the people that I have are really deep listeners and really super responsive musicians on the course. Yeah, I'm so glad you made that differentiation between, differentiation is not a real word, between the trio and the duo, because I agree with you that there's something really, when all parties are listening, you know, a trio and a singer, there is this sort of like glass somehow between the group and the, and the, and the,

soloist and the vocalist. But in a duo, there's so much at risk for both parties if you're not connected. And like you said, this freedom that can happen. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that specific combination, the piano and the vocal. There's obviously so many great examples of this. But you and Gabrielle Stravelli, who's on this course, who is, I wasn't really that familiar with, but she's fantastic. She's really, really terrific vocalist. You two have such a great chemistry together. And I just wonder if maybe you could talk about playing with vocalists, but also you chose for the chorus vocalist,

faces Drew Gress, and you mentioned Anok Cohen, a clarinetist, and what those differences might be between accompanying, not a company, but playing duo. Watch it there. Use that word. You know, the term a company means to go with, you know, like accompany somebody on a walk. So, you know, I think there's no shame in being an accompanist, but sometimes, you know, back in the day when I played with singers who were not so great, they would sort of refer to me as my accompanist, you know, like my poodle or my handbag.

Yeah. Cleaning lady or whatever it was. With singer, you know, first of all, with many singers, you end up playing things in different keys. So that's interesting right there. Yeah. Singer world. Sometimes you learn some different songs than you might be playing in a more jazz jazz

instrumental situation. Also, they're good singers. They will sometimes sing a verse to a song. You know, you have to also learn how to play kind of out of tempo, you know, how to feel what out of tempo is like, which doesn't necessarily mean just playing slow. lower, you know, can be moving or not.

But also, the way that you voice your chords, you have to be prepared for a singer maybe choosing a different note that's not on the page. So you don't want to box a singer in and say by doubling the melody. That's kind of bad form. And also depending on the singer's range, I'm, Gregoriel has a really low, rich voice. She's got a nice top end as well. but she lives kind of more in the alto range. So I have to figure out how to either be under her or around her. So I'm giving her the maximum freedom to be as interpretive as she wants with the music.

The one thing that playing with singers and playing with bass players, that's kind of the same is, you know, the base, the bass sound doesn't just pop out the way a horn player does or a singer. The bass sound from a stage or from anywhere, it's a low sound and it takes a little time to develop and our ears are very much trained to hearing whatever is highest. It's just the natural way that we work. So with singers and bass players, the idea of really developing smooth voice leading that's open enough so you're not hemming them in

and it's not distracting. It's nothing punchy. You know, it's just how you make this kind of nice bed for them to kind of be in. And that's different than playing with the horn player. Yeah, I mean, I love the way you and Gabrielle, like when you started, when she did the verse on someone to watch over me, the way that just the beautiful way you guys play,

together, not accompanied, but played together. But also, like, your ability to kind of explain these nuances, you know, throughout the course and as you are going is just brilliant because it's not, you know, your explanation is so clear and you're giving like very specific choices and things that we need to do to, you know, or need to strive to do as pianists and playing in the duo situation. But you're also laying it out beautifully like it's a recording session right there at the same time. And I learned so much, you know, from that. that. And I also wanted to ask you about that, because I remember you sang about Gershwin, and I didn't want to misquote you, but I remember you saying something about you felt like

some of those standards, well, some of the Gershwin tunes being sort of jazz standards you thought were maybe a little overrated. But you did that tune. Was that because Gabrielle wanted to do it, and what's your feelings on that? Well, we knew it was, it has a long verse, which is actually a very the lyrics are actually really good. Yeah. It's a song that most people really would know. You know, it has stock changes, which I kind of largely avoided. You know, trying to find a little way to bring something different to that.

But Gabrielle and I never played a duo before that session. Never done that. when Brian Fielding said they were looking for a vocalist, I said, Gabrielle, you know, she's great energetic, great singer, great personality. She's an accomplished cabaret and Broadway singer. She's an excellent jazz singer, and she's got just a really effervescent vibe. She's just got the best vibe. So I'm really glad that that worked out to have her as part of this.

Yeah, she's, she's, she's a good one. Yeah, a knot too. You and a knot seems to have great chemistry together and I'll be honest, Fred, we've been trying to get a knot here in open studio for, I don't know, Peter.

Years. Years. Yeah. And Fred calls her once and she shows up, but she also... That was our back door. Yeah, I know. She also has such a playful vibe.

I mean, that's, I think, the word that best describes that duo with you and Gabrielle and you and a knot specifically is just there's a playfulness there with a knot that I think it looks like so much fun you could have. You know, we'll... She's a deep listener.

I play with her brother also, Avi Shai. And they're both just very, very deep listeners. One thing I love about Anat is she's, she gets into an idea and she doesn't just pitch it away. So it gives me a chance to kind of get in there with her and create something compositionally spontaneous compositionally. She's

just got great instincts and you can't ask for a more lovely or more lovely person to gig and travel with and I also love the Brazilian music that she plays. She seems to like my tunes a lot.

So it's kind of a happy thing. And she's also not afraid if we're playing together, she's playing solo. She's not afraid to just stop and just listen to what I'm doing. I think we talked about that with Drew like so many times over the years.

I'll finish a solo with an idea and then Drew will just steal it, you know, and so I'm not and I steal from each other a lot, which is, you know, part of the fun of it, really. Yeah. So, you know, in the course, you speak quite a bit, you know, at different times about adjustments from solo piano to duo piano and the specific things, which I love because you seem to make that, it seems to be such a kind of effortless transition for you in that when you're playing, all the different situations I've heard you in solo piano,

trio with the string quartet on your recording, with duo, with different instruments, it's always Fred, you know, and this is something. I was actually just talking to one of your former students, I think Jason Moran about this and kind of like some of your concepts and how they've, through your teaching, you know, with this generation of pianists and now through your solo piano course and with this course as well, how, you know, your spirit of the music and your approach to the piano, but also the specific adjustments and like techniques to use at the different times. Because a lot of the things that you say and that you teach, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, of course. It's not totally from left field, but the way that you put in like the organic flow of in your playing. And as you're showing it is kind of revolutionary. And it's very inspiring because it's sort of like, oh, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

There's a logic there, but there's an innovation to it too. I do think for a lot of us, it's kind of like you sit down to do it and you're like, oh, okay, well, there's a logic there. It's not going to be quite as easy as he just made it look, but there is a possibility there. There's a pathway there. I love that about, you know, your teaching. I'm just wondering if that's something that you've thought about or is that just kind of come naturally from your approach? Yeah, thank you for that. You know, I've been so fortunate to teach, you know, as you know, probably a lot of the, like, super heavy young mid-career piano players have been in my studio at one time or another.

And I mean, these are people that probably didn't, you know, they would have been successful with me or without me. But the way that I try to teach is like, okay, here's. an idea, try it, just like I did with a solo piano course. You know, occasionally I'll sit down and say, okay, you could do this, this, this, and demonstrate. But, you know, I'm kind of self-taught as a jazz pianist. So I grew up sort of having to solve problems on my own. I never, never occurred to me to transcribe a solo, just people didn't do that then. And, you know, now I find that young musicians, they have. so much information. It's like, say, a young tennis player who has all the shots, but doesn't

and can really thump the ball, but they don't really know when to use what shot, you know, and they don't quite understand how to win a match because they're in their head all the time or they're trying too hard or they're not flexible enough when it isn't going well. So that's kind of more of the way that I teach is, you know, it's all about solving problems, hopefully fun problems, like it was with the three wonderful musicians I played with, fun problems, but you know, you have to kind of solve them in real time. So I think a duo, what is also special about duos is like the combined sound of piano and clarinet is different than the combined sound of piano and guitar, or piano and saxophone, you know, and it. You know, and it

it's so you have two people contributing to this overall sound when you have a trio it's to me it's like it goes logarithmically it's like not three times more it's four times more complicated and a quartet it's eight times more complicated because all these different pathways from different musicians different musicians and a duo is just like direct here you are you don't have to worry about You know, if it feels like you should go out of time, you do. You don't have to tell anybody. You don't need to chart. If I want to play my solo in another key, because I'm getting a little bored, then I can just do that.

You know, it's, you know, it's, it's really kind of like just learning the language really well. And then having this great inspiration with you. I mean, Drew and I go back, I don't know, 35 years. And then Gabrielle was the first time. So, you got different. And then Anna and I have an ongoing partnership. So you've got kind of three different views of that in terms of my experience with them. Well, and that's a great lesson for everybody, too, in watching to hear the, you know,

the high level of performance and interaction and partnership in all three of those duos, even though there isn't the many years of experience with all of the. them, but there is with some, but that kind of professionalism and commitment to the music, which is super inspiring and kind of a bonus that you get now that you know the, now that everybody knows the behind the scenes. Yeah, yeah. You know, Gabrielle and I had never played together before, so there was really no attachment to what happened.

It's like, okay, this is all, we don't, let's just see what happens. There's no right or wrong and no experience we have to draw from. We're just creating what we are in that moment. And also I thought of just friends, the art of the duo is kind of now that we're thankfully, hopefully over the worst of this last two and a half years, people are now playing with each other again. Right. You know, and who knows what I may do for you in the future. But I thought this would be, you know, a good way for, you know, people to get together and in

smaller configurations and and to for the role of the pianist to be much different than it might be in a trio setting. So that was that was another impetus for this course idea. Well, that's great too because like you said, with you getting exponentially more different possibilities as you add more people, the duo has a certain safety factor. Each person you add becomes less and less safe. So it's probably good for now. Well, the new course is called Just Friends, The Art of the Duo, and it's by Fred Hirsch, and we're proud to say that it's available here at OpenSudio. Exclusively. OpenStioJazz.com.

Yeah, Fred, thank you so much for joining us here today. Thank you so much for the beautiful work here. We're so proud of it, and we can't wait for people to check it out. And then you're doing a masterclass for us, one of your famous Open Studio masterclasses that are so popular with our members on October 14th. Yeah. Yeah, those are always fun and interesting. And actually now one of the few sort of online things that I do anymore, but always get such a nice variety of questions and levels of performance.

I think it seems to be like a great thing that you do with these master classes. And it's always fun for me. Oh, that's great to hear. Awesome. Yeah, so everybody can go. You can get the course now. And if you become a member, you'll get access, of course, to Fred Hurst. is brand new course as well as his last course and all of our piano courses.

And then you would get to see on the 14th, which is next Friday if you're hearing this podcast now. Or of course they're hearing it now because that's when they're listening. But yeah, it's really fun. I think I've seen all of your master classes and it's such a cool thing. And folks, you know, basically you critique in real time two or three of our members. They play and they're super nervous. So I think they're a little bit glad to have the virtual situation.

because they're really intimidated, but you, and you're not at all like, you know, you know, babying them at all. You can say, look, you need to do this, but, but you're so warm within the music and within the instruction that they all take so much away from that experience we've heard for them. So it's a lot of fun to be fun. You know, everybody gets a little nervous. And so sometimes we talk about that. Yeah, right. Totally. And you get nervous.

Yeah, that's right. It's part of it. It's part of it for all of us. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Fred. It's great to have you here. It's great to see you, man. And everybody, please go.

If you're an open studio member, check out your dashboard. Just Friends, The Art of the Duo is available now. That's right. Take care, Fred. Thank you. By the way, I love my open studio hoodie. Hey. Oh, good.

I still want to get one, man. It's coming, man. It's coming. I got to get in the club, man. Thank you, Fred. Okay. Thanks, guys. Thanks so much out there.

All right. Peace.