You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Bebop Scales

Episode Date: March 5, 2019

On today's episode, Peter and Adam answer a listener question about the importance of bebop scales. Wanna send a SpeakPipe of your own? Check out the bottom of the page at http://www.openstudionetwork.com/podcastLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel and leave a comment for this episode.Interested in more jazz advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter & Instagram at:https://www.facebook.com/heyopenstudiohttps://twitter.com/heyopenstudiohttps://www.instagram.com/heyopenstudio See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Spababababab do bit bit do bop b'ab b'ab. Sorry? That's Bbop, baby. Hey. I'm Adamannis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you.

Coming at me is a bunch of Bbop shouting. Well, I like to call that Bbop singing, but thank you. Because we're talking about the Bbop scale today, because we have a question for one of our lovely listeners. And so I was just getting in the mood, baby. Lovely listeners. This is from Lovely Elias. All right.

Yeah, let's hear it. Hey Peter and Adam, it's Elias. I have a question for you guys about bebop scales. How important are bebop scales to practicing, you know, and the principle of lining up the chord tones with the strong beats of the bar? It's not something that Peter stresses a whole lot in the jazz piano method. It comes up in the elements of jazz piano course, but when I do transcription of like great players, it's not always the case that the strong beats of the bar are lining up with the chord tones of the change. and for me at least it's like way too much to try to keep in mind when I'm improvising so I'm just curious like how important is this it seems to be like a really important principle of jazz pedagogy these days but it doesn't seem to bear out in practice anyway just kind of curious about this like this issue of bebop scales how important are they to you loving the podcast so far seven stars all the way thanks great thank you so much Elias and I love that he's like I'm loving it so far like that's good Keep us on our toes. He can turn it any minute. He can turn it any minute.

And I like, he's kind of bringing up a little bit of controversy there in that there might be some discrepancies in our, in general in the jazz world in our, you know, hither to, hitherto, you know, jazz theory being kind of soundproof in saying that there's that discrepancy between the actual practice and the usage and the application of this sort of concept. But this is true for almost all jazz theory. And I think BBOB, quote unquote, BBOP scales are another one of these things that I don't think it's like super universal. Yeah. Especially not for real players. Well, I love how you're all. You immediately threw shade on just the concept by saying quote unquote before you even said it. What do you mean by that?

So, you know, like a lot of things, the deeper that I've gotten into this and the more I've tried to explain it for our purposes here at Open Studio, it's kind of evolved on me a little bit. And I've talked to some other people. a great conversation with our friend John Ellis, great tenor sax scores. Oh yeah. North Carolina, big shout out. He brought up bebop scales and he's like, what is that? You know, like he's like, I just don't think about things like that. He's like, I think about using chromaticism to line up, you know, a phrase I'm trying to line up or to get anywhere.

But that chromaticism can happen anywhere. It doesn't have to be at some specified place. And I think in the way we've done it, the course he was referring to elements of jazz piano, which is our intermediate course. And we just kind of, we're trying to introduce that concept of a chromatic note in between to make it an eight note, turn a seven note scale into an eight note scale because it does happen to line up. I don't think it's crucial that it always lines up, but it's just another tool that you can use, this chromaticism. And it could really be between any tones. It doesn't have to be between, you know, the root and then the, you know, dominant seven or the five and the six,

like in the Barry Harris Sixth Dominus scale, which is some people call the major B-BBOB scale, right? Like, yeah. It can be between the root and the two or the two and the three. In fact, that sounds awesome. It can be really anywhere you want it to be. And it can be however many chromatic steps you want it to be. It's whatever your hearing is more important than any theory that anybody tells you. Yeah.

And when I like, you use the word tool. And I just realized maybe we can sort of frame this as like, how do we use this tool of the bebop scale? But not in a way that we end up sounding like a tool on our instrument. I knew you were going to go there. Did you know that? As I said the word tool, I was like, he's going to bring this back. No, but that's funny and witty, as often I am, but it's also, I think, no, but like the whole thing of like, we don't, you don't sit around with good players like John Ellis and talk about, man, I'm going to use the bebop scale on this. And so there is a little bit of shade from the standpoint that I think with good players and how we use this.

Yeah, we use the bebop scale, but not in the kind of acknowledged way that you would talk about the Dorian or the altered scale. I mean, look, we don't sit around and talk about any of these scales in terms of I'm going to use them here. But we do try to explain the application of them, you know, successful situations to use them. Certainly from a technical standpoint, like how do we master these scales so that we can draw upon the segments of them that we want to at the appropriate time. But I think the bebop scale for me, it's like I didn't really know what a bebop scale was until I knew almost every other scale for some reason. I don't know why it just wasn't introduced to me. I was playing parts of it, which is, you know, the foundation of it just being. Well, that's actually playing the entire scale.

define what a B-Bob scale is for people who are kind of in the dark. So traditionally, as it's been taught by jazz theorists, the B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-Scale is a Mixalidian scale with a half-step put in between the seventh degree and the octave. So if we're in, let's say, C, there's that little chromatic passage. Ah, Krennick-Bach is in poor shape. It is. It's stuck in the pod cave.

And so the reason why people say this is good is because then, And on the beat, you get C, E, G, B, flat, C. Is that good, though? I mean, it's kind of good. Well, here's the other, the second part of Elias' question here is that, like, isn't it fine for the ninth to land on the beat? Exactly. It sounds great. Yeah.

Or the 13th also sounds very, very good. Yeah. In fact, most good musicians could have the fourth land on the beat, and it sounds just fine, and it's not a problem. I think this has been part of sort of the institutional institutional institutional institutionization. Let me try this again. Institutionalization of this music of trying to find some kind of explanation for things, sounds that, you know, grates in the past have invented. Well, I think it's interesting that you even described it as you did as a dominant scale with the major seventh,

because I've always thought about this as a major, and this just shows how unimportant either way is, as a major scale with a dominant seven. There you go. Which obviously equals the same thing. But I think that the application of this is very different than other scales. It's not really a real scale. That's the first thing. It's a major scale or dominant scale, however we want to look at it with a passing tone.

No one uses this as a mode for anything. You build chords often or anything. It's not like, oh man, when I get to the C-7, I love to use the bebop scale. It's more of a melodic sort of technique, I would say, with a passing tone. And in that regard, so back to sort of Jay Buggy's point, that chromatic passing tone can go anywhere. Yeah. You know, so instead of, you can put it between the fifth and the six.

Yeah. Or between the second and the third. Or the first and the second. Right. For that matter, it doesn't really matter. It's just a chromatic passing tone. Yeah. And wherever you are, if you want to land on a G, use as many,

chromatic passing tones as you feel as appropriate to get there. Yeah. Now, I do think that there's an interesting part that Elias hit upon in terms of the timing and the number of notes in the scale and the other scale that comes to mind is the diminished scale

because that's an octatonic scale as well, eight notes in it, but it's a real scale unlike the Bebob scale. Damn! No, but I mean, the thing about the timing of it is like when it really gets interesting in fact, I'm trying to think if I would ever play just a straight beb

scale. Like almost any other scale, I might play that as part of a solo phrase, right? But that's going to be tough to kind of like, one, two, d, four, I mean, that's, you're getting into cornball category, but if you think about the timing of it is actually the

off beats being, as opposed to starting on the one, starting on the upbees, one, two, three, four. I mean, even that, it's not great, right? You're not smiling. The only thing I ever use it for is, is on a couple the keys that like I can rip off these little four note things really

fast. That's all I've ever used it for when I think about it like that. I know. And even if I play stuff like you know which kind of has the man what? Everything sounds corny on this piano. Why is that? Granik and Bach. It's falling apart on it. It's falling apart. Like that's all the notes of the C of

B-Bop scale. But I'm thinking of that more as like almost like an implied G minor over the C-7 and it's like a major third to minor third of blues thing. Yeah. You know like a passing around there. So it's, I don't know. So the sixth diminished scale, right?

Barry Harris is quote unquote six diminished scale, sometimes called the major bebop scale. That actually is a scale that you can build chords off of. Which one is that? I don't even know that one. Do I know that? It has the chromatic step between the fifth and the sixth. Yeah.

And so if you skip a note on that scale, you get a major six chord. Right. And then you move that up, you get a diminished chord. We're about to drop some twos. We've gone over this several times. So I don't need to go over that. but that actually is something that you can build harmony off of.

You can build obviously melodies off of, but there's a whole system to that. The other chromatic, the other scales that you would put this chromatic passing tone in, not so much. I mean, it just isn't as logical. I'm sure you could do it and figure that out for yourself, but it's not something that's used quite often in that regard.

And then, again, any note, a good player can make any note land anywhere and make it sound fine. I think, I think, band directors mostly use this B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-Scale to try to get their players from, you know, starting their solo like,

you know, you know, to try to get them on some stronger... Depending on where you resolve it, that could be okay. I mean, it didn't start great, though. Well, we would know how to do that, but like a 15-year-old alto saxophonist who's already 50 cents flat. Right. Well, and I think, too, it's like it really,

You hit on this a little bit earlier in talking about the chromatic passing tone can be anywhere. But if you look at, especially from the basic standpoint, like how does a high school saxophone player over the C7, it's like, once they get that dominant arpeger, then they're like confident, but they don't leave that at all. But the same way that the minor third to the major third, when you don't have a lot of harmonic ingenuity or just knowledge or experience, the minor third and major third can be one of the, like, introducing that element can be great. And the same thing with this major 7, which is sort of what makes the bebop scale. You know, basic saxophone high school player, but they're starting to get a little bit of personality, you know, with some hip rhythms.

You look like there's no hope anyway still, right? I mean, your impression of a basic high school player is so accurate that it's a little scary. But you have that sound down. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a new record in your future. Well, we'll see. Basic high school player, Peter Martin.

I'm going to be on saxophone, I'm actually sound like that too. That's the great thing. Elias, I think the answer to your question is it's not really that important. Yeah. And that, you know, great players don't think about it that way, really at all. And whenever I've taught just from a piano standpoint, like the important scales, or really from jazz improvisation, you know, we have that as an element to our program, but it's very de-emphasized, as Elias saw. Because it's just, I mean, because we focus so much on, even in elements of jazz piano, on a chromatic scale, almost pushing it in before most people were to introduce.

it. But that brings this element of the bebop scale out. And we talk about timing of phrases and accenting and stuff. And that's the real thing that I think most players have is this ability to add chromatic passages to their playing to make them not land on quote unquote the strong notes, but the notes that they're hearing that they want to land on. Now I do think, now I'm just remembering back to like some applications of this that for a basic player can really be helpful. Especially if you start at the top and go down on a bebop scale, you can start to get, you you know, kind of this thing of timing out of the notes that's sort of interesting. One, two, three, four.

At least hearing the difference between that. Are you going back on everything we just said? But I like that too because you're ending on the upbeat. There's no wrong with either one. But I'm just saying you can hear the difference that way. So you could take the major scale, the dominant scale, and the B-Bob scale and come down in-time, B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B, starting on the one, just basic eighth notes. Like, that is important to kind of, nah, maybe not.

I don't think it's important. I'm reaching, man. Because we're getting towards the end of the episode, man. I'm trying to give them something. here. Well, I hope this does answer a little bit. Maybe, Andrew, cut off that last like 25 seconds. No, no, no. No. Well, I...

Elias, we hope this answers your question a little bit. You know, notice Elias gave us seven stars. Did you hear that? He did, and we didn't ask, well, we didn't ask for that. But just a reminder that that's a thing we ask for. It's a thing that we get a lot of. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? We don't get, you can't get everything you want,

as the song says, but it turns out with this. Wow. Wow. Peter's showing off his Rolling Stones. Come on now. Come on now. Or lack thereof. Actually, just a big shout out to Tim. How did that go again? No, I just saw their saxophonists.

Tim, Tim Reese, great saxonauts in New York. I just saw them in a gig. I was talking about the Rolling Stones. Oh, cool. Yeah, wonderful saxonets. Jazz saxonist, plays with Rolling Stones. Okay, so. Can't get everything that you want.

Oh, yeah. I think that's a, I think I screwed up the words that. You might have. Yeah, yeah. This is, I pronated them. I transposed them is what I was doing. Okay, so today we're going to just, since you brought up the seven stars,

we did get a nice review from screaming Jimmy from the United States of America. Who? What's up? Jimmy. Nobody said five stars. Oh, no, you know, seven, whatever. This is a great podcast.

I just found this online. And after one podcast, I am hooked. Great job, guys. I'm sending my students to your site. Keep it up very much. That's how we do it. Give it away for free. Yeah, that's right.

When you come back, it's still free. Yeah. But I mean, I like that he must have got the right one episode that he's hooked, you know. Yeah, there's only one good one. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, we're going to... We've been getting some people complaining that we're talking about the stars too much.

And we don't really care about that because we love the stars. Nobody's complaining about that, except our one friend. We've gotten a couple. But I want you, you had, can, while I'm kind of riffing here, can you pull up that negative YouTube comment? Because we want to start balancing our positive, you know, we're always talking about the positive reviews, and we generally get those, but we are getting a little bit of shade on YouTube and the one that you had, and I want you to give him your answer to it as well.

Oh, okay. We got that shade of, I wish you guys would chill a little bit on the quote unquote humorous banter. So much filler, it's a little bit cringe. And then I responded, and I don't always respond to negative YouTube comments, although it is a fun pastime. Lately, you've started to, though. It is fun. Speaking of cringing. Because I responded, sorry, cringe filler is a crucial part of our sound.

And that is true. Boom. You know what I mean? If we didn't have cringe filler, this podcast would be about 35 seconds. And look, just to know for the listeners and for the viewers and the users, we're cringing just as much as you are. Okay, so it's a mutual thing. Don't feel like we're only causing you to cringe.

No, but we really appreciate all the feedback, positive and negative, and we love all the positive on the podcast channels. So you can, you know, hit us up. Just give us a comment, leave us a review, whatever you're feeling, wherever you listen to this podcast or on YouTube, if that's where you are. Give us a little like and follow. Turn on notifications. You know about that?

Ring, put the bell on. Put the bell on. I don't have my bell in for anything. I have no notifications, but I want you guys to do it. Yeah, I love it. Ring our bell. That's right. Well, until tomorrow.

You'll hear it.