You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Beyond The Bassist

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Peter and Adam interview legendary composer, educator, bass player, and Jazz Legend Maestro Ron Carter about his life and legacy. Check out Maestro's book Chartography here.You can also find Open Studio's Blueprint for Jazz Bass right here. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

We're excited and honored to welcome an artist who embodies the living spirit of the double bass, of music, of jazz, and well beyond. The maestro sits in a unique position having played and recorded with an expansive lineage of jazz luminaries from Miles Davis and Sunny Rollins up to today with Jonathan Battis and Nicholas Payton. But the maister has also played and recorded with an equally expansive lineage of pop soul and R&B artist from Roberta Flack, Aretha Franklin, tribe called Quest, of course. but all this while consistently leading his own bands and his own recordings, teaching and influencing several generations of bassists and musicians in general in jazz and beyond. He's authored numerous books on technique, method, transcription, as well as a comprehensive online course on Open Studio, Blueprint for Jazz Bass. Oh, and he's also a longtime fashion icon, in fact, the OG of Planet Elegance.

He's a father, a grandfather, a husband, as well as a member. mentor and a conscience to several generations of jazz musicians now on all instruments. We welcome the man, the legend, the maestro, Mr. Ron Carter. Hey, hey. Thank you. Who's a little introduction? Thank you. Just a little introduction.

Good morning to you. Yeah, good morning to you. It's always so great to see you to feel your spirit, you know, just as a legend, certainly, but as a little bit of a friend in getting to know you and just, you know, your humanity illuminates so many through your music. but those they get a chance to meet you. It's amazing over the years how many just different fans of the music that have said, oh, I got to meet him once in 1968.

Like they remember, folks remember meeting you. Of course, bassists do. And they remember your specific notes and lines and your choices and have you influenced that. But you're one of these kind of rare artists that touch people in a way, especially I think as a basis where you're in the middle, but you're kind of in the back. You're a tall gentleman. So people do see you up there.

but you have this connection with people that really transcends the instrument and the music. And I wonder just if we could start there and like, is there any secret to that? Or like, how do you see that from your side in terms of the thousands, the tens of, the hundreds of thousands of people that you've interacted with and brought pleasure to their life? Well, fortunately, for you guys and whoever sees this interview, I have a special screen that I place over my, computer screen like a drop-down screen like that and what it does

it prevents the interviewer in this case you two guys see me blush oh we can see you a little bit it looks more joy I got the screen it looks more like joy than blush to me that's what it is

yeah you know to hear those kind of introductory comments I'm not quite sure that you're talking about me because I just see me as being a guy who no longer accepts being behind the palm tree

for a long time. That's kind of my image of the bass players up recently, up until 25 years or so ago. I think the bass was the last instrument to start making the kind of progress piano made or saxophone made or drums made, you know. I think one reason is that happens that the bass players were not comfortable with their role

other than just being the feel of the beat not that notes weren't important to them of course they were but that was not the band's focus that's been changing now it's a whole other apex and what the bass is input and necessarily presence can be and to know that people who like you say come up to me

and tell me how they'd heard my music in college and helped them get through nights at school that's really amazing to know that back then the bass was starting to creep into their consciousness now. You know, it was no longer a real nice color wallpaper back there, you know, with a nice flowers on it. You know, they start to hear, not necessarily know who it was, but it began to impact them. It began to get their attention, you know. And it's nice to know

that I have meant some of these people down through the years who continued that love of music and their awareness of the bass player's presence to see me at a close. or the concert, you know, or the post office, you know. I'm trying to be incognitive to put my hand in like this and the sidways. So I know who you are, man, you know. They remember back in the day when base, as a general rule, was not the first name on the announcer's menu, you know. Again, I'm thankful for the screen that you can't see me a blessed the color I am,

so let's go to next something else. But it brings up a good point, but you are a part of people's understanding of the importance of the bass's role in music. And I also think that, you know, with modern production and the ability to hear the bass more and more clearly and the importance that's given so that people now grow up with understanding

that the base is the music. The bass gives you all of the feeling, like you said, of the pulse of the rhythm, of the foundation, of the harmony. And you have such a huge role in that, in adjusting the role of the bass over the course of music in the last few years. So it must feel like,

amazing to get that validation coming back at you. You know, I have a list of things that tell my students about how important the bass note is, singular note. And this one note does four or five things. It maintains the form. It maintains the chord. It maintains the groove. It maintains the pitch of the band.

It maintains the presence of the bass there. Each note we play. does all those things. Yeah. And they are responsible for all of those notes. And I think I've been responsible for, and what I understood, much of the power of the instrument, and I don't mean power in terms of volume, the volume of the bass's presence, and the volume of the notes responsibility for every note we played.

Once I became understanding, I was probably aware of it happening. I didn't have the vocabulary. I didn't have the scientific. the scientific curiosity necessarily. Why is it happening with these guys? Why is that passage? Why is that note? Why is that rhythm?

I'm here, personally corrected. How come they can't hear it like that? Now that concept, it can be probably more easily explained now than I could X number of gigs ago or years ago. But it's nice to see that that concept has been gone to the next generation and how they're going to have this evolving of this awareness of not only is the base more present but now they've got a better way to record it got better pickups

they got better preempts they got better cables they got i wish they had better studios but they're almost all gone yeah yeah but more curious engineers all these factors now are in the in the basis toolbox can make the base a lot more present and a lot more effective even if he has not the best try some notes or rhythms. He hears it back in him. He'll make the changes because it's so clear to him, he just twice his hour. Yeah. Well, speaking of studios, the last time we saw you, Maestro, was in the studio in New York City

as we were recording your course for Open Studio here, Blueprint for Jazz Bass. That was about a year ago this week, actually, is when we were recording that. And you've had quite a year since that I was kind of looking over what you've done since the last time we saw you. So you had your 85th birthday celebration at Carnegie Hall, which is... Yeah, it was a huge success. You survived it. All the, all the music and the accolades and, oh, man, the amazing guest artists that you had.

You've had a PBS documentary come out in the last year. You went on. Yeah, you had several tours, I feel like with your band, Forsight, with Rini and Jimmy Green and Peyton Crossley. You had a lot going on, man. You played a Birdland. The Japan tour. You were one of the first back in Japan that I heard, I was like, Ron Carter's taking his group to Japan. I was like, are they opened yet?

I was like, well, that's the signal. They are open. Well, you know, just for the, your calendar, I just came back from a one night in San Francisco with Ambrose. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, Embrose, of course. Yeah. S.F. Jazz, the collection that it's called, I guess. Yep.

And they have a lovely 700, 800-eat-seat concert hall there. That's really well maintained. Then they got the most current sound gear. Yes. And they got sound people who are interested in and making the band sound like a great band, like the records make them sound, you know. Yeah. That was last Friday or Saturday.

I said, my schedule, given that we're now opening up to be able to have a schedule. Yeah. And the audiences, as I've been told from people who are really frequent, the nightclub and concert series, the people are really trying to come out again in droves because they want to see strangers. Right.

Want to see people in their environment, you know? So the clubs are getting filled. They're standing filled all night. Usually the second set is kind of the release crowd. Now they're filled with the whole house for the whole evening. Yeah. I think this public awareness of COVID not being so prominent in the club's function

and that there needs to have that kind of monitoring of their behavior pattern. so to speak. The audiences are coming back full force. And I'm looking forward to becoming active in that kind of musical environment within the next after the summer. How are you, you know, just looking at this past year, but I know your whole career, I mean, obviously you're at a point now

where you could, you know, do no gigs or as you say, be it at the palm dreams in Florida with maybe some other bass players playing bridge or something. But you're very, intentional decision not only to play for your 85th birthday at cardee hall of course but also to still be playing in the clubs when you don't have to be playing the big concerts writing books writing books you know giving back and as i said the beginning i think one of the things i you know i'm so interested in all that you've given beyond the basis because you know bassists all know you or even

like piano players like us that play baselines it's like you come up even when we're not thinking about you. You sort of seep into our musical lives. But I think this, you know, you being really the conscience of a couple of generations now, maybe going on three generations of jazz musicians in that like you keep the standard high, not only on the bandstand, but professionally. And like, everybody talks about that. They don't always talk about it in front of you because we're scared to, baby, sometimes. But I mean, you are one of those, that very small select group of players that has the experience, it has the chops, the knowledge, but also puts the pressure on everybody to be like, not even by saying you got to do this, but just like, hey, this is what we elevate

to. And you've been doing that for a long time. And so I just wonder, like, what, where do you find the energy and is it intentional for you to say, you know what? Instead of just like easing up and chilling and looking at all my beautiful art or going to Florida or whatever, like what keeps you going and doing these things that are really seen as more giving back? And how? And how. Yeah, and How, if you got any secrets too. Yeah, we're going to write those down. Both you guys know, you're still very active players. And you always looking for the best night you can have.

You hope it hasn't come yet, despite how good you're playing. Now, multiply that times 60 years. Each night I have a chance to play, I'm looking for that special note. I found one 1975 1, 1983 it stuck I'm looking for those moments

that will make the music just glow in the dark that's what it is you know and then you can't find that at home practicing you can't find that jamming somewhere

you've got to be in a kind of a controlled environment that allows you to continually stay outside the box, because not the box is the band. The envelope that we are involved in, it's just the band. And having the opportunity to play with all these wonderful people, who I have a high regard for. And I think I've kind of earned the right to have them regard me at a high level.

I'm in a position then to have the location and the time and the mindset that maybe this is a night for that note. Maybe I can finally resolve that based on I heard last night on this tune at this temple, because these guys are playing a different way than last night for wherever reasons they are. I think it's been a scientist. You know, I think a bass player were more scientists

than bass players, man, they would think differently about the bass to be aware of the sound, specifically the sound, to be aware of what it takes to make that sound, the sound night in and night out. They did they figure away how the bass works, and it's not their base for the base, they call the bass du jour. It's not their base.

What does this base allow me to do? And I mean that literally. Curves here, the strings, the distance, the strings are apart, what kind of strings they are, how new are they? How many pickups does a guy have attached to the bridge and below the tailpiece? If they understood how the base really works, man. Base tussure would not be such a frightening experience for them.

That shouldn't scare them. They should say, aha. Put on the Dr. Vandemar hat. You know, Dr. Mandamir, a mad scientist? Here's a chance, man, to fix all those rumors, you know, about bad things happening to a good bass player. The other thing, guys, is that my upbringing was one that assured me, that I can only be successful

if I was prepared to be successful. And by then I mean have a certain skill level, have a certain level of professionalism, a certain level of respect for everybody. And less but not least, I could do those things. And those four or five headlines

for each paragraph, they have their own story and you pull down the thing, you know. And I think it's a combination of all those things. And again, the last, but not least, this plan with great guys who expect something new. Occasionally, when I was working a lot of duels with wonderful panelists with Cedar Walton,

Kenny Barron, John Lewis. Yeah. You know, occasionally, Steve Cune, occasionally I would feel like, I mean, I had enough of doing me. Is it possible to do a whole course of not me? And that would mean for the night, I won't play any non-core tones for four choruses. Or it may mean not playing anything past D on the G string.

That kind of control. And at the end of the set, man, invariably, the piano player would say, are you okay? See, yeah, man, I feel, I feel great, man. I curse that for calling me not feeling very good. No, I feel wonderful, man. You said, were you playing different tonight? Oh, well, different. I'm afraid to ask what that means, but okay, let's try the next set.

And if we do the next set, that's how I would, I like to think that I can, what I'm known to do or whatever that is, put that screen down again so you can't see me a blush. And at the end of the set, I don't know if you're drinking that, but we've got to celebrate you coming back. So it's those kind of things, man. Don't you? To make that note that I'm looking for,

the right note, quote unquote. Really amazing. Yeah. That finding that, as you said, that magical note and the things you're mentioning here, I mean, it comes to mind that it's, what you're talking about is sort of that risk that happens when you're playing this music live

in front of people and anything can happen. And then you put, you know, as you mentioned, like kind of restricting yourself, I'm going to be a different, I'm not going to do me right now, I'm going to do this other things. Is there a certain alchemy in your experience, your vast experience with this,

to kind of find those magic notes more often than not? Is there a certain set of circumstances? Is it just being prepared, being open, as you said? Or is there anything that? I think it's all of that, plus memory. I think I'm going back to the bass prayer club now. I think the bass players remember what they played. I really remember the gems that they stumbled

for the last tune and try to transpose or transfer that gym to a different tune or a different tempo or maybe not behind a piano player but behind the horn player with no piano player playing you know it's those kind of things finding the right note is a nice way to say I'm looking for that that diamond in the sky you know and then I think you You know, at some point, my friend who was a real jazz fan, not that they are on, he said, look, my story, you guys start talking to the people more because they want to hear what you think,

not just what you play, you know? So while I haven't had chance to do that because of the long vacation, the biggest extended set we had off of the set, I've been telling people, I've told people several times that to really, that what they're seeing is a special event. It just happens to be that you're here. Every night, the ranchizer reached another level.

And every level of reach is acceptable to us. But we know that there's another golden leaf somewhere. And you, ladies and gentlemen, just saw that leaf. So they're part of the gross progress that this man goes through night in and night out, only because they remember what it felt like last night. And if I can kind of instill in them the things that we happen collectively during the course of the previous song, the previous night, and kind of to evolve, evolve that idea, that kind of development of a phrase or a range of an instrument, or all of a sudden the piano player may just reach in the piano and play a chord inside the piano keys. What happened to that possibility from last night? Is it tuned too fast?

Is it not the right chord to put the keys down to let what? What's wrong with that? It makes them more curious as to how the instrument can best affect the whole band. Not a lot of superfluous stuff that catches your eye necessarily. You know? And it's this kind of a scientist mentality that I've enjoyed maintaining for all these years. And I'm not like the oldest lab technician on the scene, but I'm okay with that. I got my own lab coat right now, a little headband, you know, stuff.

I'm okay. But I think it's that scientist of curiosity that makes inventions take place. I'm not necessarily trying to invent new notes, trying to find a new order of those notes that didn't work very well last night. This is the night for that note. I love that idea about thinking about the musical phrase over the course of several nights even. I'm not thinking about remembering what the band has done and what you've done. When I remember we've talked about this before and in one of your transcriptions books, you get into the kind of analysis of things that you played.

And this is going back to the early 60s, like over Autumn Leaves with those great lines on there. And like, you know, we had looked through that. And I had grown up listening to those lines and actually transcribing it, like, learn. I never wrote them out, but I would learn them. But I'd never thought about it. I remember when you first told me about, like, you know, thinking about it on that much of a macro level where it goes beyond, you know, where it goes to the whole tour and then you connected it with the story of like,

well, this place, I remember that bass sucked, but I had to come in and do this or whatever. Like the humanity of it all. It wasn't just, we're going into a recording. It was like the curtain opens and play. And but how are you able to make those connections? I think it's so instructive. And it goes, that's all I met is like it goes so far beyond bass players. Because if we could all think like this pianists and drummers and stuff, it's such an exciting

way and it's got to be a part of your secret to longevity of career inquisitiveness curiosity as you said your word you know in terms of approaching the music and i'm sure you're getting this a lot now especially after the 85th birthday celebration and everything you're probably sick of the like what's the secret to you know the fountain of youth and all that but you know being able to play at a high level but i'm wondering like is this just the way you've done things or did you make a conscious decision at a certain point to be like look, I want to keep doing this forever. So I'm going to do these things as a scientist, as you say, in order to make sure that I'm in a position

to be able to keep executing on an instrument that is probably the most physically demanding. Notorously. Yeah, I mean, just from a body standpoint as well. Well, I think, I'd like to think that I could control getting famous. I think that's kind of out of our control. It is. Yeah.

Yeah. What you can do, I think, is a recommendation of having a goal to look forward to is when you leave every gig, can you feel I played the best I could? That's always been my feeling. See, I didn't really play good tonight for a lot of reasons. The bass didn't sound good. They had the air conditioning on all night. My hands never got warm. The tunes were a little bit too fast or too slow for my ability to articulate what I'm trying to hear. I never thought that the gig was a bad gig. I never accepted that option. They've got five guys playing here. We can't all be terrible, man. Somebody's got to be the least terrible.

And maybe they'll be me tonight. Maybe I'll be the least terrible guy in this terrible band. But I think just the determination to make sure I'm helping these guys who I'm playing with and gals who I'm playing with play differently. Hopefully it's a better differently. But now I hope I've made them enough conscious of this information that's coming from this guy who's in the back. They can use his baseline concept, his baseline direction, to make the solo they practice at home not work right here right now.

If I can get that to happen, that's half my mind. my job. Yeah. Now I have their attention. And when I have their attention, my scientist says, okay, take off the head, take off the coat, let's go to the pool and let's really get down with this bad boy. Now we've got some tension coming here. You know, you're now the coach and the swimmer.

Let's go. Next. Okay. Now, stuff, because I have the attention because now their mind is open to these other possibilities that I'm determined to keep in my toolbox. in my toolbox. Having said that, I can't think of any gig I played that I have not thought was a free lesson from whoever was in the band. I'm listening to them. I'm watching band leaders who treat audience a certain way. I'm listening to band leaders who change the program because

the audience is responding, not as they want them to respond. I'm listening to piano players. I just have touched as the sound guy makes the sound louder than the sound check today. I'm listening how the drummer retones the bass drum because all of a sudden the bass drum that he had fixed, it sounds really booming loud on that because there are people in the audience. I'm watching the guitar player readjust his pickups

because the sound was nice and dry at the sound check and now he's ringing all over plays. I'm watching these guys make these constant adjustments. My job, guys, is to make them think, or to let them sink, that I'm encouraging this kind of adjustment, Because I'm making mine too. And when we get straight in that same line, man, the music has a chance to really be important and necessary.

We all can help that process. I think it's a bass player, I kind of turned up the line on the process, because that's what I do. My job is kind of make the notes I didn't expect to hear from last night. Or there's a same note in the same place on a different song. So why? Do we hear that last night?

Yes, but now it's over. over here. Can you make your solo work? Can you make the dynamic of the band work? You know, and if these kind of challenges that music allows me to not fear, you know, I don't mind the guy saying, man, what is that note? Be flat. I'm okay with that. Yeah. Wow. So I wonder how, because I wonder, you know, the chartographer you mentioned briefly. Yeah. One of the things I like that book. Yeah. It's a great book. is that it shows a baseline that evolves over five different performances and how the band responds to hearing this idea that's now five months old

that's been evolving for five attempts at getting it right, whatever that finally means. And they're so used to hearing this kind of idea management and idea development that they expected to not happen They expected to happen night in and night out. And when you plan on great players, how can you not accept that challenge? Yeah.

It's a great, it's really well done that book. And it's so cool to see the differences in the baselines and how they evolved. And then you have it marked when a substitution happens and when all like a pedal point happens. And we'll have Caleb put a link to that book chartography here in the show notes. We'll also link to your Open Studio course.

And when we were speaking in the Open Studio course, when you were recording that, like I said, this time last year. It was amazing to watch you in the studio, you know, in that environment. I've seen you live and, but I've obviously never been in a studio session where you've been. Is there any difference in your mind between a live performance and a studio? So like, how do you treat a studio session? Do you treat it just like a gig, like you might a concert, or do you treat it? Is there any special thing you do to prepare for that or that you need for those?

that's different from a live performance? I think two things come to mind. Number one, this recording session is permanent. This recording session is permanent. This recording session is permanent. Including all the terrible notes you play, this is permanent. And the same thing I think of is, are you willing to have your name attached

to a record that you play it terrible on? If you're not, what is it going to do on your part to make just record as good as you can. Are you focused for the whole arrangement? Are you thinking about your solo rather than helping the band sound better because your presence is there? So important.

I'm thinking, am I playing too hard, physically too hard? Yeah. Am I playing too loud, physically or too loud? Now that everyone is so close together, are you really playing in tune with the band? Are you playing in the right range of the studio? Range meaning a part of the bass sounds really great in this room. And we all have this kind of, there are those strange sounds in the room. Have you found the right area in this room sound to make your bass really play by itself?

When you find that space in the room, man, you're on your own. The base takes care of everything. You can tie your tie, man, and it still sound great. Change your shoes, all that stuff, man, because the bass is taking care of the whole load of doing your job. So I tell guys, man, tonight, the basis plan by itself, they know what that means to me. The environment is so complete in terms of interest,

in terms of intensity, in terms of focus, in terms of respecting my notes. We're on in the car together now, man. Finally, it's only one set. We've got into the set to do. That's Max the first set. And the students are the same. kind of thing. It's so concentrated and so focused that it's hard not to be productive

if everyone's on the same level of intensity. And sometimes when that intensity is not there, you do take six, take nine, six, 25, eight, okay, one, two, and three, that. That's no good. Yeah. Pretty soon everyone's bad to everybody else. Yeah. Because everyone didn't have the same intent of making a record. Yeah. I've been called on several dates where the band that was hired didn't make a record, they didn't make a record.

Because they knew about playing in a nightclub or a concert, but they didn't know how to detune some things in the studio. playing really hard. Yep. And you have on the club, you have all night to get it right. And the studio date, you have two courses. And everyone's going to hear it. Not just your guy in the front row of the club. Right.

This is for real. This is it, man. Yeah. Some people get fooled in the studio, too, by thinking, oh, we got all these takes, but what you might not know is nothing good happens after take three. I agree with that, man. Yeah, you can't.

Yeah. Because musicians get so focused on them rather than the package. you know and they're like their solo but i'm sure you've been in situations where it's gone well past take three probably not because of your performance how do you keep that because and i'm i'm sure well now you could just be like i'm out peace but i mean how do you keep that same level of intensity and interest yourself knowing that it's going beyond where it should be knowing that no one's going to know that it wasn't you that they were on take 12 or whatever you got any secret tips for that selfishly i'm asking for

friend. I think it's a test, do I really mean what I say? Am I able to focus on this same tune that has four false starts and a terrible ending? One more chance. Can I maintain my character of an instrument? Yes, this is my test for today. Interesting. And I still be the guy who raises the level of the music 25% because he walked on the door. Right, right. That means I have the same level for whatever duration this tune is going to take. That's great. Or how many times, how many times they just had the tune doesn't work? I see this kind of jam on this tune for a minute.

I don't like to do that because it's just kind of, it's like a thorough way then. You know? These guys are serious about planning music and you just want to, okay, well, how about time? Guys, you know, please. So that's my job, my test. That's how disciplined am I?

to not allow my time clock of saying enough already, going to be extended enough already times, eight times. And can I still maintain the integrity of my intent for this music? To maintain that respect for the music and the guys. Of course, I don't like to do take 10 and take 12. But I can assure you that my take 10 or take 12 are going to be as intense and as well played

as my take 1, 2, and 3. I'm making sure that. That's my job to me. This is such an important message for young or any age musicians because I think a lot of folks see yourself and really just a small group of great players that are in this category of like, well, yeah, of course they're great,

but they're never having to go past take two because they're of that fame and prestige. But just for folks, because we got a chance to work a little bit with you in the studio just because, you know, I know about what your process and, like, what it takes to actually do this stuff, it's just important for folks to know that. It's kind of like when you hear, you know,

people will hear Herbie Hancock on a Faziole and be like, oh, of course he sounds great because of the Faziole. I'm like, no, I've heard him on, and I know you've heard him on a number of different pianos, some uprights and some janketing stuff. And folks just, you know, especially younger players, they don't understand that, some of them, some of them. And it's so exciting to hear you talk about that.

Because when I hear you say, like, you know, know all these things that you're thinking about doing a recording or on a gig like you're multitasking in terms of your communication and your senses on such a you're talking about the bass drum and like the sound and the engineer your strings that I mean like and I wonder how much of that is because the obvious question which I'm interested in is like how do you maintain that and keep doing that or is it the fact that you're doing all that what keeps your mind so engaged and so active and keeps then the playing at a high level because of your active thought process as you're going through these recordings or gigs.

I'm speaking about curious. I give you an example of how my curiosity but a solution. Every summer, of course, the air conditioning is real high in the nightclubs. In the dressing room, if there is one, it's really high in the dressing rooms. and with the new needs for fresh air given, the cold it's really even more cold than nightclubs. For me, that's terrible because my hands never get warm all night. So one day I went to a hardware store.

And I wasn't about some hardwareers. I said, do you have any hand warmers here? You said, here, you've got something back. See, it's just a little of a packet that's sand inside of some kind of chemical. You shake them up like this and they heat. Okay, so I bought two packs, one for me and one for my buddy who's playing guitar. We're both complaining about our hands being cold between sets. Enough, okay?

Let's try this if it works. And after the first, after the second set, and we were both amazed at how more ready our hands were to be played, used because he were no longer chilling from the cold and weren't... You're doing this for 20 minutes before the set started, you know? Now that kind of curiosity, that kind of willingness to go one more step. We've asked the club on to turn the air conditioning down, turn it off, turn the stuff that guys tolerate because they don't know what other choice they have. Well, my choice was to go to a hardware store.

Say, hey man, any hand warmers, what is that? What is that? Now, they've got eight and nine brands, methods, style, yeah. The fact is they are affordable, it's not expensive, and between sets, my hands don't get cold anymore. So that's all the part of demonstrating the desire to leaving no stone unturned to allow me to play what I think I hear. And hopefully these warm hands are now between sets,

we'll have a chance to do it than before. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Great. I wonder if we could just switch gears just slightly and talk about, because we've talked about your books that you've written for bass instruction, specifically, your open studio course. And this is something that's kind of happened a little more recently in your career. But I wonder if you could talk about your process for teaching, because we do obviously a lot of it around here. And it's not playing. It's its own art form to kind of relay that information to students. I know you've done a lot of one-on-one instruction with talent. students and mentored great basis. But I wonder if you could talk about your process for, really, you've got such a clear mind on how you want to present, an organized mind on how you want to present the information.

Is there an inspiration or a process that you use to decide how you want to teach your methods? Well, I think the first thing I try to do is sound of what is their level. What do they think they can do? And so before I take a student, I'd ask them send me a MP4, which is the sound and the video. I just want to see what they do and how they do it. The second thing I ask them is, what do you, what do your strong points? And what do you think I can help you get better at?

Now, I ask that question, Nathan, how do they feel about themselves playing? It's not enough to come to me for a lesson. You need to have a view of what can you learn. when you walk out of my room. And that door closes, how much is it going to stick up here? Or here, as it may be. You know, what do you want to get better at?

I'm trying to see how they feel about them playing your base. You know, if you can do all these things, then what can they do for you? What's my input to make you play better than what you take your play already? And once I get a bead on what I think, they think they need, I show them what I have.

think they need. Now maybe I'll even demonstrate some things that they hadn't seen done live, maybe him on record, but how they have to live. This is how I have to do with this particular item, whatever it is. But to make this work, you got to know if my fingers on F on the D string, what notes are here? There's a big silence. That. That tells me one thing, they don't know the bass. Yeah, definitely not. Or they don't know the bass very well. If you have first finger B flat, first finger A flat on the G string, what notes are here? And how many chords can you play without doing this?

Say, well, okay, two things you've got to learn the bass better, you, student, and here's a method that helps that process. The next thing is that I'd ask him to play me an open string, open D, open A string. And they have a, you know, a chord note is 92. That's my favorite time. And I have them just go up on the A string, just play an F major scale for a moment. Okay, now just down the A string, you just play the open A. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

They keep doing that and then let the hand, the left hand go as if they play it. All happens, they let them let the right hand go out toward the scroll. And I said, okay, come back down. And I asked them, what did they hear? See, I heard the A string. Well, duh. Let's do it again and listen more carefully. So they start down here,

they slowly go up to the scroll and come back down again. What did you hear? Well, the sound, I think it changed. The sound is supposed to change. And what's happening right now is that as you go toward the scroll with the right hand pits, because the strength changes, the tension changes,

that you plan up here like you want the sound, like you plan down here. So the only way that's gonna work is if you stay down here and get the kind of quiet sound you want here, still down here by the end of the thinking of work where you have some substance, you have some body to the sound, you have some color to the sound, you have the notes clearly starting and clearly stopping

to let you control the lens of that sound. So once I explained that, this to them, they're only in my pocket, but they're getting close to my doorstep. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I'm showing them the subtleties of the instrument. Right. And they trust my judgment and take notes by hand on the pad of paper, now that's not this thing here, and read that every day before they practice, they will see some changing in their sound because they're hearing differently. You know, watching the process that we talk about in a lesson take place at their house.

Just to start with that. That's amazing. Yeah. Do you, so many basis, again, of several generations have taken one lesson or many lessons. I mean, I'm always hearing about, I'm like, wow, how did, he's in the Guinness Book of World Records for all these recordings. I've seen him on tour. And you've given a lot of lessons and you've given back a lot specifically to bassists. And then I think through your bands over the years, you know, I know that you've taught from the bandstand.

you know, to piano players and guitarists and horn players and stuff. But there's another side of your, you as an educator that I think is really legendary at this point in the jazz community and beyond, which is kind of like letting folks know this is the way we do things, you know, keeping certain traditions going on, letting everybody know beyond just the music, the level we're at. And I think about that story that I heard Jonathan Battise tell relatively recently of when he first met, I don't know if you remember this, when he first met you and you kind of schooled him.

And I think his whole thing was, and you know, I know Jonathan in New Orleans since he was 13 years old and I love Jonathan. But I could, when he told that story, I was like, I could totally picture it, knowing both of you. I was like, I know how this went down. And you kind of schooled him in front of some other musicians in a dressing room. But I'm just wondering, like, did this, like, did this become a master plan for you to be able to, like, you know, teach at the right time beyond the notes and the chords?

and the piano and all these different things but these things that are really about hold on a second now you know being able to look around the corner and be like you might be in Berlin next week having to do this with this person or going here to Brazil or whatever um you've provided a lot you know beyond what you probably even know because we're always all

talking about it amongst ourselves oh did you hear what happened with such and such man rank oh yeah he gave him that look and whatever but like how did you become that guy um be that there's a way to give someone respect, not patting them on the shoulder. There's a way to make someone feel important without doing like this.

And it's a small thing. My name is for a student or teacher, Maestro, and Mr. Carter. And I think that level of respect is a part of background. It's a part of your training, whatever you tell you, however you define that word training. You know, I never call my parents by their first name.

Hmm. We just didn't do that back in the day, in 1940. To da, you know, we always respected our neighbors Mr. Mrs. Williams, Mr. Mrs. Jackson. We never called them by their first name. I respect one for their age, for their seniority, for our respect for their experiences, and for our respect for them.

And so when I tell my students, when I question them about a statement or something, they say, yeah, no, I said, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now I'm 60 years older than you are, and I think I like the word, know with all the letters involved, both of them. And the second letter, second word, three letters, S-I-R, I like those five combination letters.

It shows me you respect my age, you respect my experience, you trust my judgment, and you accept that I've been there for a long time before you. And once you get that level of respect about just that simple greeting, yes sir, or no sir, or yes, no, Mr. Carter, or yes, Maestro. It changes their attitude toward a lesson, man,

because they know that this guy, me, is demanding of them without them playing two notes. And that's really important for me. And it's very important for them as he leave my space, my studio, and start going to work, meeting people. How do you address them? Are you courteous to them?

Do you show them, you appreciate their presence, that they hear because of your performance, of the group you're playing with. Can you convince them just by saying, yes, ma'am, that you respect the being of this person in front of me? Can you show them that you really are honored to be in their presence by saying, yes, sir, I know, sir. Now, yay, man, yes, that way, guy, please. What's up, bro? Don't get, you.

Stop, dog. No, no, no. Don't do that to you. I'm not standing there. I'm not standing there hearing that. Yeah. Well, I mean... It's not complicated, man.

And they want that kind of direction. Right, right. Because they're in the world. Not just in their neighborhood block. Right. You want big airports, train stations. They're seeing a lot of people, different people, every hour, man. Right.

Looking for some kind of guidance other than what they're small circle of guys. Give them. Well, I'm not on a one man. I'm not a language police or reading police, but it's a vibe. It's a added, it's a vibe, right? Yeah, it's a feeling. It's a feeling, right. Yeah, you know, and yes, I carry that feeling.

I've earned it. I mean, if I'm 85, 1, 86, well, I can do that and not feel any pain. Yes, ma'am, yes, sir. Yeah. Can I help you please? Well, I remember hearing, I think it was an interview, maybe I even heard him say it directly, but Herbie Hancock, it even goes well before 85. Because I remember hearing Herbie talk about Mr. Hancock,

talk about you and how, because I always, you know, Herbie, Ron and Tony, like, that's a legend. I mean, like, there's very few, like, three names that you, you know, be like, Magic and Kareem or whatever, you know, like, I came up with like, that's the Trinity right there. And so I always just figured you guys, you know, you never think about the interpersonal relationships at all the thing, But I remember Herbie Hancock talking about how when Miles put the band together,

you know, you were the one where he was like, yeah, me and Tony were like, oh, yeah, we wanted to play with Mike, but we wanted to play with Ron because you were a little more established. And like, he described you. I remember exactly what he said. He said, you were the base player. You were the next one. You were the guy in New York to play with. So he was like, I was excited for that.

I'd heard him. And his level of respect, it wasn't like, you know, and I know you guys are relatively close in age. But like, you were a little step ahead of him maybe in terms of, of, of, you're a little step ahead of him. just how people had heard experience yeah and what everybody knew but most importantly what the other musicians knew so there was that that respect there and so i think it's it's such a cool thing we've always seen that within the musical community but when you do these things and they're like almost public services like with jonathan i don't mean to pick on john i love that guy but i think yeah yeah i mean he's such a i mean i i look at him as kind of and maybe this could even be the last question thank you for

all the time yeah we can sit here all day i know but but you got more important stuff to do no No, but I was just thinking you're so well connected with, and the small group of like really jazz celebrities or just musical celebrities of which there's not a lot that are playing at your age. A lot of them, there's not even a lot of them, you know, but I think that you, I look at Jonathan of like the equivalent of that of kind of, not even our generation younger. And, you know, Winton and Bramford, of course,

you've seen different folks come and go, but you've always had some kind of connection with these leaders, and our music and some kind of an imprint on them, maybe directly like with Jonathan, and certainly I know Winton and Bramford, when you guys did that tour, how much that shaped their vision for music and everything, VSOP and all that.

But I just wonder, like, how do you feel about sort of the jazz celebrities of today and is this music in good hands beyond just the people playing it, but the real leaders like a Jonathan or something for us going forward? Well, now that the world is opening up, And there's more chances for those guys to play more often. Because we were all pre-limited in our visibility of our lives and our gigs for almost two and a half or three years. Now that there's some air moving around out there, I call it.

And it's air is for the people who want to hear some good music and some French play. Now that that's happening, I'll get out more often and hear people play and give you a better answer. Right now, my general sense of where they are is that they're wonderful players looking for somewhere to go. And I'm not sure they have found that yet. For every good player, that's a good concept. But I think the music right now

is needing someone to grab them all by the throat said, let's stop doing that, let's do this. And that sounds like a pretty vicious way of, giving your point across, but sometimes it takes, kind of takes that. I think Byrd didn't consciously do that, but clearly he did that, for example. Burden did it say, okay, look, guys, okay, this is it.

Miles kind of the blue record. Guys, this is it. Miles the second Quintet guys this is it they haven't found that yet and I think when they do

be a tremendous explosion because the guys out here are really a plan the horns great skill level, great concepts great concept concepts but no real concept yeah does that he or she that's going to say

come on let's do this that you're afraid Does that need to be kind of somebody, a young person, like 20s, 30s, maybe 40s? No matter. If they believe what they're doing and somebody here, they'll all know. You know, I'm glad our screen is up right now because I'm really starting to, my face is turning red now. I can really feel it coming. But it's like me in the base, once I started something doing whatever that was,

the bass players who I would never see, who I would never hear. part of what they do is because of me. Yeah. You know, and my screen is changing color right now. But it'll be the same when the music finally finds a leader of sorts. We're just taking about it. Okay. Right, right, right.

And they'll know it because all those guys play good already. Yeah. The performance level, the skill level is really high right now. and I think there's so many guys who play that real high level it just takes someone to say guys that's the right song or those are some terrible lyrics

check this out well that's such an inspiring place for us to end and to hear that from you because I mean I feel that way we talk about this all the time but to hear from somebody that has experienced you know for a long time

what that would take and seen these things happen for you to be hopeful in terms of that the skill levels there. I mean, I know with piano players, I'm like, I think there's more great young pianists, you know, Jonathan and Sullivan Fortner and Emmett Cohen. I mean, there's so many, you know, the talent is obviously there, so it's super exciting. Clearly, that's correct. Yeah. It just needs to mind in the States. Stop. Right, right, right, right.

I'm not going to do one gig at a time. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, amazing stuff. It's always an honor to talk to me, Maestro. Thanks for spending this hour with us. We'll link to all of your books and your Open Studio video course. And you have anything coming up that you were talking about? One thing. One thing. Yeah. I got a new book coming out for the next two weeks.

It's called Drops. Hey. Hey, now. That's something people are interested in with you. Is that something you might know about? Yes. There are 30 examples. All of cataloged correctly, all them notated correctly,

thanks to Dave Barron, good text, and then there are 30 drops with the QR codes to let you know how this looks and what it sounds like. Yeah. Over various changes, various temple, various backgrounds, these drops have their own life. And this new book, which you hope is out in the next two weeks, shows you exactly what this drop with Eddie Harris looks like. Okay. And with this drop on miles, what this drop really looks like and how it sounds that way. because what's preceding it and was after it. That's great.

I'm very happy with this project, man. There's a lot of work. He's too humble to say, but, you know, these are called, for those of you don't know, these are called amongst musicians Ron Carter drops. Exactly. It's appropriate that you would release a book on it. No, I'm excited to see that, and folks are going to, we'll definitely link to that. And, I mean, along with chartography, I think the exciting thing is, like,

with your educational concept, you do such a great job of actually, We've talked about this. This has really never been done. I would say with those transcriptions of Autumn leaves in that, like there's been so much great analysis, especially of that period in that band, obviously legendary band. I mean, people have picked that stuff apart. But nobody's ever like an important musical document or, you know, documentation of, you know, an album or kind of a band has never been analyzed by somebody that actually was in it in a way

that is so thoughtful. Like it's always somebody else, which is interesting. but there's nothing like, you know, and so I would just say for everybody, I know for me, it's always a little hearsay though when it's from someone. It is.

It's always like, and I mean, I think music theory in general, it's like if you're going to analyze Beethoven's music, well, he's gone, so he can't do it. But it would have been cool

to see what he thought of. And I think that you're really thoughtful analysis. People need to really pay attention to that. Especially piano players and drummers because we talk about like, you know, what's the one instrument that you're always going to be playing?

The drummer might lay out. The pianists might lay out. The horn players do lay out. And the bass players probably going to be playing. It's like, how do you learn how to play with a great bass player? Learn what it takes to be a great bass player. So I learned so much from those lines and your analysis.

It's like another prism of looking how this music evolved. And so thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. You're welcome, guys. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if it's foggy in the background or it's time for my nap. It could be both. It could be either or both.

We're going to go off and like have some more. lunch and celebrate our conversation and just thank you for the interest thank you for your time and thank you for this uh platform that allows me to talk to two nice guys over some very important musical concepts it's an open invitation anytime you want to talk we're we're open for the only problem is since you keep getting younger every time we talk and we're definitely getting old like we're going to there's going to be a point where we're going to cross over and you're going to be like who are these two old guys and why am i talking to them it's going to become dangerous and it's going to be like bench the last time i see i'll have a high chair

That's right. Thank you so much, Meister. Have a great best guy. Be well. Love you. Love you too. Peace.