You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Can Public Radio Swing??

Episode Date: February 3, 2023

Peter and Adam investigate a recent NPR story on the physics of swing. Can scientists truly quantify the vibe?Want to check out that NPR story? You can find it here. Also, check out Christian McBride and Hutch's video on who's in charge of the time right here. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Yo, Adam. Yo, what's up? Is this swinging? I mean, I think kind of, but let's ask NPR's Steve Inskeep, Rachel Martin, and Noel King. I'm Adam Anas. And I'm... I'm...

I'm Peter Martin, and I'm swinging. You're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcasts. Oh, music advice coming at you. You got it, buddy. You know what's funny about that intro, Peter. I know you were trying kind of not to swing? Oh, I wasn't just trying. I was achieving.

No, I mean, but the thing is, is for most people, standards, it was kind of swinging. Well, then they need to tune into the rest of this episode. I know. I know. Because we're about to put to the test, some science put out there by NPR, because that was not swinging. Not from a spiritual, emotional, rhythmic, or scientific standpoint.

Definitely not from a facial level. You had it on your face, like a poker face. This is not swinging. But it is, and this is not a flex. It's going to sound like it. But it is hard for me to not swing because it doesn't feel good. It doesn't sound good. And it's weird, right? This is not part of your personality. Your whole personality is like...

Well, no, I'm not... No, it's true, man. I mean, but I think, yeah, hopefully my musical... I mean, that's the whole point of us studying this music, learning from the masters. But also just being part of the culture

of jazz music, I think, is... And this is not to say that, like, jazz is swing and it's supposed to be from this period. But that is one of the important and interesting grooves that I think that we infuse

our music with and connect with the music as that kind of layer, that rhythmic layer. and it's just a fun part of the music. So to not do it is not fun. It's not fun. So yeah,

we're referencing this really great story that NPR put out a few weeks ago about the science of swing. Like what makes things swing? And it's a question we get all the time here at Open Studios. We're trying to teach swing. Right.

And our stock answer is like, you know, really swing is kind of a vibe. Like it's hard to define. You can't really notate it out correctly. As Christian McBride, so beautifully puts it in the article, computers can't really nail it because it's such a human thing.

Like it is, it's almost like it's an attitude, it's a vibe, it's a reaction to what's happening around you and inside you. And it's really hard to put into words and traditional language, what is going on. Right. But I do think there's an interesting layer of science that we can apply to, you know, an artistic endeavor to sort of explain it, almost like the way music theory would go back. and kind of explain something that is very human and natural and doesn't need a scientific explanation, but sometimes it's sort of fun to do that if it's sort of valid. And I think that this, well, first of all,

the article we're talking about the story that appeared on NPR is called What Makes That Song Swing? At last, physicists unravel a jazz mystery. And that sort of sounds like, oh, yeah, so physics can explain it. But it is kind of interesting the way this goes down. So we thought, because this has been talked about, and this is from the finding time,

science desk actually at NPR. Not the music desk or not the music desk or the jazz, not in America or anything. This is really kind of coming from a, I think, a very interesting. And of course, it appeared on Morning Edition. We all love Morning Edition. We love Morning Edition. You know what, though? Like, I wonder, just a caveat on this, don't, I would just caution anybody who's

about to listen to this or definitely go check out the original story too. And we'll have a link to this. You know, you can hear the audio and everything. But if you're looking for advice on how to swing, you're probably not going to be able to physics your way into being able to swing. No, no. But that's what we talk about. It's interesting to go back and explain that. And so we thought we would just sort of play some of the article and sort of, I mean, play some of the story and kind of react. And it starts out with this great Lewis Armstrong track that

I'm ashamed to say I'd never heard before. Shame. Because I'm kind of a Lewis Armstrong, uh, aficionado and fan. But that's the fun thing to hear some. So here, let's check it out. Now a mystery about music. That's swinging. Yeah, for sure. about jazz. What is this thing

called swing? What is this thing called swing? Whatever you're doing, Louis. But what's interesting about that, obviously those horns are Pabap, Bipa, do, do pab da.

I mean, like that can't think. I mean, it's so swinging and so relevant still and not dated or corny sounding, I don't think. But what Lewis Armstrong is doing, are we going to overanalyze

the first 15 seconds of this? I think we might. It's some of the best part, but check out, What is this thing called swing? Like he's very much floating above it. He's swinging, but it's not like, you know, so like there's already that push and pull. They're going to talk about this later if we get that far into the story about that

and how pressing it that is to kind of what we actually feel as swing. Yeah. And if you're, by the way, if you call yourself a jazz musician and you haven't- Dogmatic, I love it. And you haven't gone back and checked out at least the like the rudimentary Lewis Armstrong stuff. Yeah. you know, the hot fives and hot seven stuff. West and blues, all that stuff. Like, go check it out. I got to sing the blues. Because that is the foundation of swing. Like, it is the foundation of the language still played today.

And the article references people like Nicholas Payton and Bramford Marcellus along with Lewis Armstrong. But what Brantford plays is a result of what Lewis played. It comes from that foundation of what Lewis Armstrong, you know, gave to the world. That's an amazing thing. Absolutely. Okay, we'll continue on. Louis Armstrong is a question that you, Musicians still debate. What creates the swing feel in jazz? Now, physicists think they've got an answer, and it all has to do with the subtle nuances in timing. Okay, so this is really interesting,

because at first, this is the kind of thing I think for us as musicians, as jazz lovers, of fans of the jazz culture, we would bristle at perhaps to be like, well, what is swing? And we've always talked about different ways to practice it, to learn it, to incorporate it over different times, stuff. All of a sudden, it's like, well, now, Physicists, yeah, hackles might come up for sure with that, yeah. But continue on with us, please.

Part of our science series Finding Time, NPR's Maria Godoy has a story. Don't mean a thing. Okay, big shout out to NPR and Maria and, is that, I'm sorry, who's doing this story? I should. Yeah, Maria Godoy, because we're not even 30 seconds into the thing. We've already got some of the swinging of stuff, Elephus Gerald, you know, Lewis Armstrong, and not just any Elephist. I mean, like, this is very thoughtfully put together.

100%. And they're saying science is explaining it, but they're very much presenting the sound of it. So, like, right in line with it. I love that. Do I, do I, do I, do I do I, do I do I. As Ella Fitzgerald and many others have sung, swing has long been considered an essential component of jazz.

It's hard to put into words. That's a little controversial, though, right? An essential component of jazz? I don't think so. No, it's not? Okay. No. So if you're not swinging, you're not playing jazz?

I think it's, yeah, I think shots fired. Maybe. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's for another day. It is. But you might describe swing as a rhythmic phenomenon. Propulsive, groovy feeling created when performers are playing off each other in a way that makes you just want to move the music.

So I do love the definition of swing is a rhythmic phenomenon. Oh, it's so great. I think that's a really fun. Instead of like, it's a specific rhythm or it's a vibe, right. It is a rhythmic phenomenon in that it encapsulates not just one. particular rhythm or one particular feel, but it's the entire ecosystem of rhythms that exist that create this feeling. I love that definition. Yeah, and I love that she's already touching on the interplay among musicians as being an element. Because that's missed with a lot of music theorists

and stuff. When you try to get technical, like they're coming in from a science standpoint, so it's a little bit more holistic as terms of like, this is not about do you play a C minor seven before an F7? Does that make it swing? Do you play a dotted triplet? You know what I mean? You like theoretically trying to describe it where you can pull the parts apart a little bit too much, but thinking about how it interplays with several musicians, so important.

Swing is a feel. There's a certain language. There's a certain inflection of rhythm. Christian McBride is a Grammy-winning jazz bassist, music educator and host of NPR's Jazz Night in America. And open studio artists and friend of the podcast. Yeah, don't forget that part. Don't forget that part.

Yeah, I love it. His, I mean, musical phenomena, rhythmic phenomenon. Yeah, language. And then it's a feel. I mean, this is so many different great lenses to kind of understand this. He says one defining component of swing is how eighth notes are played. Instead of playing them straight. And that is like, in jazz, these notes are swung, meaning the downbeat or every other eighth note is played just a little longer,

while the offbeat notes in between are shortened, creating a galloping rhythm like this. The jazz musicians know that technique alone can't explain swing. How do you like it so far? How do you like that explain? I love that. Now we're getting a little scientific with the actual subdivision of the beat. After all, even a computer can swing a note.

A computer just ain't going to swing that hard. But it's just interesting what he said. He said a computer ain't going to swing that hard. So it's kind of opening the door that you could, and we're going to hear some kind of almost AI computer generated type swing in a way. It's still sort of swinging. So like there's definitely different degrees. There's a gradient. There's a range of swinging.

It's not an on and off switch. Still don't get the real proper swing feel, which is a human feel. You know what I mean? Okay. Did you hear that chord there? I think this is part of it too. Like that, they're not playing it all exactly together. Oh.

No, I mean, I think. Wait, let's check it out. In feel, which is a human feel. You know what I mean? That's true. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It sounds good, though.

Yeah, yeah. But it's right after he says a human feel. Yeah, it is human, yeah. Yeah. That's McBride, swinging with one of his bands. For me, I think you got to lock people in and say, okay, here's where the time is. here's what the rhythm is.

And then everybody collectively, the musicians and the listeners can go, ah, yeah, that feels, that feels right, right? So he's talking about two different things, like kind of elements to the actual sort of manifestation of the rhythmic phenomenon, right? Like, you've got to lock in. Yeah. The rhythm itself has to be, like the grid has to be locked in.

Right, right. You have to lock it in. And he says for the other musicians, now, of course, he's Christian McBride coming from the bass player's standpoint and coming from someone that knows how to lock in almost immediately. Yeah. But he says for the other musicians and the listeners. Yeah.

That's really interesting way to think about it. It's like it's a very inclusive thing, but it's also like we're locking in, but he is making kind of an antidote to like a computer locking something in where it's like it doesn't have that human element. So then it becomes one of these things. It's like, well, what is different about it then? Why can't, if it can be scientifically explained and it's like the eighth note is being altered by this amount, how come a computer can't do that?

What is the human element actually? Yeah, yeah. That's good. Exactly, are musicians playing off each other to create that swing feel? That's what Theo Geisel wanted to find out. Theo Geisel. I'm a professor for theoretical physics. Geisel is Director Emeritus of the Max Planck Institute for Dynamics and Self-Organization in Göttingen, Germany. Okay, I love this.

Swingen. Swangen. I love that we're going to Göttingen, which I've been to Germany. Have you really? Absolutely. To go to German. But full disclosure here, I have a little bit of a family connection here because he said, so my grandfather was a physicist and was actually was German.

And they said the Max Planck Institute at this university. My grandfather was Max Planck. He was not Max Planck, but he worked with Max Plan. Did he really? Yeah, we have a picture of them and stuff. But I don't know that they were defining swing at that point because that would be pre, you know, Lewis Armstrong and all this, very early days. But now the Germans have physicists perhaps, which are always known in some great physics. Man, I thought you were accomplished, but it turns out

in your family's life. Totally disconnect. I mean, this is very coincidental at this point. Physics of synchronization. For example, how the billions of neurons in your brain coordinate with each other. He's also a passion. So I love that, but there's this,

it's coming back to this element, too, about swing being a cooperative thing. Right? You know what I mean? Like, and what is the interaction? I think that's underrated in how we, and I mean, even us, how we talk about it to students.

but it is an interactive experience between two beings. Like it is not just isolated. Of course you can swing playing solo piano or whatever. Right. Or solo bass or, you know, trumpet or... But it is an interaction even in that setting. Right. It is like how much when we're playing solo piano are we, you know,

kind of duplicating or trying to simulate... It is an interaction between the hands or the lines. Yeah. I mean, we talk about it. Like that tension. We talk about like the... take your snare drum solo and then play half of what you sing, right? So if you're like,

a do, a, a do, uh, uh, do go do, uh, uh,

or that you hear on record, there's always that, like, and this is a very, like, subtle sort of music theorist, I think viewpoint on this, but, like, there's a tension between, but think, d-d-d-ding-g-ging. It's not, like, when they talk about, Christian McBride talks about locked-in,

there's not a precision of, like, on the grid. No, not at all. There's a tension between that riot symbol and oftentimes in the, with, I think, with some of the great rhythm sections, bass drum duos. Caleb, link to Christian and Hutch's video, with Open Studio about who's in charge of the tempo.

All right. Because they talk about even Ray Brown, you know, one of the, not even arguably one of the swing of this bass players of all time was always a little bit of the head of the beat and it was always tension with whatever drummer he would be playing with.

Right. But that tension is what caused of an incredible feel, right? This like tension of like where he's pushing, the drummer is maybe going to go with him but probably kind of hold back a little bit. And that's that interplay is what works. Well, it's great you bringing that up

because we're going to be getting in a little bit. Good, good, good. Let's go back to Guitting, Germany. He even has a band with other physicists. They play at conferences. Over the years, Gaisal has wondered, How do musicians synchronize when they try to create swing in general?

So that's a great, like, I love the way he puts that. How do musicians synchronize when they play swing? You know, so it's not about like how do you swing. What is the grid that you're attaching yourself? How do you synchronize? Yeah. And if you think about like synchronize swimming or like, I always think about like the relay thing when you're passing the baton along.

It's not just about the quickest way to get there. You have to synchronize the running, the feel, the human element, right? Yeah. Now, you would think that musicians should synchronize as best they can when they play together. This is true, of course, to some extent. But since the 1980s, some scientists and music scholars have claimed that the swing feel is actually created by minute timing deviations between different. Ray Brown comes through again.

You know what I'm saying? Gaisel and his colleagues took jazz recordings and used a community. computer to manipulate the timing of the soloist with respect to the rhythm section. We had experts, professional and semi-professional jazz musicians, rate how swinging these different versions of a tune were. I mean, but this has been proven again, again and again and again, between Dexter Gordon and Herbie Hancock and Brad Meldow, you know, that it's not super lined up with whatever's happening in the room section.

But I love that, and this is where we can really think about how science and the arts do not have, are in fact very much aligned when they're, when they are synchronized in an intelligent and human way is that he took, he didn't put this feed this into some algorithm for an AI computer to decide if something was doing. He said the science-tific approach was they took a group of professional jazz musicians to rate the swing as opposed to a computer or grid rating it. So that's the human element. Because as we say, it's a feeling. It's a musical phenomenon. It's a rhythmic phenomenon. And who's best able to be able to evaluate that? Yeah. But even amongst, like, you can think about different kinds of swings.

So you think about Dexter Gordon, you know, in the 50s and playing very behind. And maybe you think about Keith Jarrett, now he sings, now he sobs. Keith Jarrett, as much as it feels like, Keith Chick-Korea, now he's singing somebody stops, Chick-Korea, as much as it feels like he might be ahead, when he goes and does those big lines up and down the keyboard, he's actually pulling back a little bit from Roy Haines and Miroslav.

Like, he's a little bit, just a little tension, and they're on the front edge. And he's ahead before that. And he's ahead before that. Exactly. So, and you consider that to be a different kind of swing than Dexter, and it is, but it's still playing with that tension. That's good stuff right there. Well, this is great, too, because

then it's like you're going to professional musicians that know what swing feels like, you're not saying, does this swing? Well, does it sound like Lewis Armstrong? It's like, no, does it have that same kind of spirit and feel? Even if it's Chick-Korea, Herbie Hancock, Lewis Armstrong, because we understand that connection. I think when we get outside of our heads and being like,

no, this has to be like this and this has to be like this. Yeah. In one version, for example, the piano soloist started at the exact same time as a rhythm section, like this. See, look at that. expert right there. Wow, yeah. You like that?

That sounds like not swinging. In another version? So if it sounds like not swinging, is it not swinging? It is. But isn't that crazy? That's like, but what does that sound like to you? Like what does that remind? It sounds like AI jazz.

It does. It sounds like YouTube non-licensed AI. Sounds like Coffee House Jazz on Spotify. The soloist downbeat started. But check this out. Just the tiniest bit behind the rhythm section. But their offbeats were not delayed. That sounds like this.

Sounds better. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And that's taking the same thing. Yeah. Like, look, the drums are still not swinging on their own. Right. So they're already, they're having to battle that.

But just that little bit of offset is crazy, man. That's crazy. You hear a difference between the clips? It's okay. Geisel says most people probably won't. Well, we do. We do, and our listeners do, Geisel. Dr. Geisel.

Well, everyone's heart does for sure. Everyone's soul does 100% if you were listening to this. Yeah. Wasn't that Dr. Seuss's creator's name, Dr. Geisel? The author of Dr. Seuss? Dr. Seuss was the author. It might have been his real name. Oh, no, that's the cat.

That's the cat in the hat. Okay, that's the low. Dr. Seuss wasn't a character. His name was like Theodore Geisel. I think you're right about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the timing delays we're talking about are minuscule, just 30 milliseconds or a fraction of... Well, anyone who's ever played around in logic or Pro Tools knows that 30 milliseconds is not miniscule.

It is not, actually. It takes to blink an eye. Even so, the jazz musicians reading the clips picked up on it. They noticed the difference and they could feel the difference. They told us that they could hear friction between the rhythm section and the soloist, but they were amazed that they could not identify what was going on exactly. Gaisal says, yeah. Wait, is that Larry Golding's, um, uh, is that Hans Groiner?

Is that Hans Groiner? No, but I think he made a great point. he's just like, we were able, we, the professional jazz listeners, were able to pick up that it was more swinging. And we were not like, wow, that is killing. But we were like, that's better. Well, and again, I want to. We didn't know why, though.

I just want to put like a bit of a disclaimer on here. You will not be able to swing harder if you think, okay, 30 milliseconds pulled back or whatever. This is something that you just have to listen to a bunch of music and get it into your, like, you need to get the sound of it and that feeling of it so you can recognize it. If you didn't recognize the difference, you should be able to, feel that difference, at least to feel like one feels lame and one feels vibrant and life-like, you know? And generally, it's going to be a quicker pathway for most to be able to feel that and to hear

that than to actually play that. Yeah. Right. I mean, the same way, like, if you're looking at something that's considered apps, well, any kind of art, like an art museum, you go to see Picasso or, you know, big time stuff or whatever, but you want to learn about a certain style. Like, you're going to be able to start to understand. the way the colors interact, the way the shapes,

the way the proportions, the proportionality of it, it's quicker and appreciate that quicker than you can learn how to paint like that, I would think. But this is something that you can start to rely on yourself. The same way, like if you're getting into wine

and you're drinking like, well, I can't smell these different things, but you can figure out what you like and what tastes good. So this is what we're talking about is what feels good, I think. And that we are, as professional jazz musicians, do have and are supposed to have a better kind of grasp on, more intuitive,

grasp on that. Yeah, man. Also, listen, I was going to say, like, listen to life, too. Life can give you, like I was thinking, and I wonder if any of our dear listeners, who I know we have some super smart people and some super dumb people that listen to the show. Whoa! Shots fire! You know who you are. No, but if there's anybody who knows, I wonder if there's ever been studies, I'm sure there has been, on the effect of language and the music the culture produces, because I was listening to Lewis Armstrong play and even Ella play. I'm reminded of all the time I've spent in New Orleans, and I know Peter, you've lived there for decades,

but, you know, the language in that city swings, like crazy. Like, there's syncopation to it. There's the same feeling to it that you get in the music, you know. And that's been my experience in other places, even if I think about a place like England, who's got one of the most, you know, the richest choral traditions in all the world,

their vowels when they sing are incredibly round. Yeah. like these warm round vowels. And that's how, you know, most English in England is spoken with these big round vowels, or at least, you know, what is it called, presented English or whatever that is. You know what I mean? Right, right, right, right. And even, you know, I've been to, like, South Africa and worked with some choirs,

some Zulu Christian choirs that do, like, choral music. And, you know, they have a very specific English accent. Yes. And it's... The denunciation. and they're singing in English, has the same rhythmic feel. You know what I mean?

It's all kind of in 12-8. Like, the way they talk and the way they're saying, it's pretty amazing. It's got that lilt. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just wondering, and maybe someone knows, has there been a study just culturally

around the world, the effect of a culture's language on its music? It has to have something. Oh, absolutely. Because it's the heartbeat. It's like how we communicate. Portuguese and Brazil.

Right. It sounds like the phrasing. Yeah, yeah. Samba feel. Absolutely. Can you give me a swish there? All right, we've got some exciting stuff coming up,

but I wanted to just talk to you a little bit about Open Studio. I've heard of it. A couple times, yeah, I've heard. Is that pottery? Come on in, paint the pottery. Do your little thing on the weekend? No, it's just, it's really an exciting gathering place for jazz aficionados, jazz players. People that want to get better playing jazz, but also want to have a little bit of fun as they're doing and connect with other folks.

And our new Open Studio membership has just been amazing. We have all this fantastic content. the newest of which is your course on Harmony. Yeah, Hearing Great Harmony. Hearing Great Harmony and how you apply that to your practice and you're playing and everything. We have all these wonderful resources, and we want to invite folks in as our lead sponsor here.

Here Great Harmony is such a, was built out of the repertoire club, you know, on the Daily Guide of Practice, such an Open Studio Pro, and it's really been incredible to hear the feedback because I think a lot of people didn't know that there are these big motions that happen in tunes. Like, if I were to play this, Peter, Yes.

You know, many people don't know that if you can identify what chords that I just played were diatonic seventh chords, what chords were secondary dominance, did we do any tonal center shifts? Did we go into any new tonal neighborhoods? That you can save yourself all of this brain power as you're working through this stuff. And eventually it helps to start bleeding into your improvisation so that you're not thinking at all. So you're just hearing these bigger movements as opposed to these are the seven notes that go with this chord. These are the seven notes that go with this chord. You just understand sort of the major pillars of the harmonic structure of what you're playing, and then you think less, play more.

That's sort of the goal of Open Studio, right? Is to sort of get this stuff ingrained. And being able to hear these big harmonic movements is something that I think we've underestimated in the music education system. Like understanding what is going on in those big movements. It could be a game changer. So hearing great harmony is there for that. We help you identify diatonic seventh chords in tune. We'll help you identify things like tritone substitutions, secondary dominance, secondary diminished.

What do you know about that? And then all of these great tonal center shifts, which help to, like, instead of thinking of this as like flat seven minor, flat third dominant, flat six major, oh, that's just a two five and G flat. We're just going to go there for a couple bars and then go back to the key of B flat. That kind of stuff, it just is immensely helpful as we're improvising so that we're not thinking all these little bits we're thinking the bigger picture. So great.

So here in great harmony, you get that as well as. all of Adams courses, the jazz piano method, Jeff Kieser, all of our offerings when you become a member, go to open studio jazz.com slash y-h-I. Now, why do I say Y-H-I? You'll hear it. You've got it. All right, back to our regularly special program. So back to swing.

Anybody, if anybody, anyway, if anybody knows of any resources there on language and music, I would love to check out any books or whatever articles that nobody has. Yeah, absolutely. All right, we're going to check out just a little bit more. Again, we're going to link to the. There's actually some great stuff here. But, oh, they're wet. Okay, we're going to link to this entire,

well, we may just listen to the entire thing here. But we're also going to link to it. Musicians were seven and a half times more likely to rate the version with the downbeat delays as swinging harder. The researchers also... This is the kind of research I've been waiting for years. Someone to ask you to rate swing? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Isn't that what this show is all about? Exactly. Seven and a half per seven, seven point five times swinging her. As proved by science. German approved. I believe that's what OG's react to IGs is all about. Recordings of jazz soloists. And they found that almost all of them were using tiny downbeat delays relative to the rhythm section.

There were very few exceptions. Geisel says these tiny timing delays aren't random. They're systematic. The musicians are probably just doing it intuitively. Important point. have scientists finally crack the code for swing? Well, we have cracked a lot of it. But he says there are

some mysteries of individual artistry that science might never be able to unwrap. And that's okay. As for jazz musicians seeking the secret to swing, McBride says, study the greats. There's the spiritual answer, and then there's the scientific answer.

You know, I think you just got to listen to people who did it well. Lewis Armstrong, start there. You know, you actually want to go hear somebody who can swing their butt off, Nicholas Payton would not be a bad start. Bam. Bramford, Marcellus would not be a bad start. He says, listen closely. Notice he mentioned two musicians famous for being from New Orleans, Louisiana.

I know. Yeah, and I think he, I don't think he did that purpose. I think he was just thinking about, like, stuff that swing, you know, stuff that you can hear now. And, yeah. Eventually, those mysteries of rhythm and timing will reveal themselves. Maria Godoy, NPR News. We talk about New Orleans a lot, but just another shout out to New Orleans for giving us swing, for giving us that feeling. Yes, amazing. Absolutely.

OGF swing. So it's a great piece by Maria Godoy and the whole NPR science and music team. Big shout out to Christian McBride, of course, friend of the pod for his eloquent, you know, analysis on that. And Professor Heisel, Geisel, Geisel, out of Grosgan, Dr. Seuss. Dr. Hans Groiner. With that great scientific analysis. analysis. So yeah, I was really inspired by this. Please let us know in the comments. We are on the YouTube. Did you know that? Big shout out to YouTube here. We're on the YouTube's. This is going to be

on the YouTubes, right? Oh, a little hands groin. But we invite you to come over there and join the dialogue. We've been having a lively dialogue. We're going to talk about that in next episode coming up, some of our wonderful commenters from our beautiful listeners. And until then, you'll hear it.