You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Dealing With Minor 2-5-1's

Episode Date: February 13, 2020

Peter and Adam give a tutorial on minor 2-5-1 chord progressions and what voicings work well with them.Check out Geoffrey Keezer's new course from Open Studio: Elements of Solo Piano. He'll show you the strategies and techniques you need to know to become a better solo pianist. For a free sample, take a look at Keezer's excellent transcribed performance of "The Nearness of You" right here.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel and leave a comment for this episode.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Dark, very dark. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Daily music advice coming at you. Coming at you today, we're sponsored by Open Studio Jazz. Go to OpenStudioJazz.com for, oh, your jazz lesson. You know, I heard you doing that last week.

I saw you do it, and then I heard you do it because that's the way science works. You hear with your eyes first. Exactly. So that was a fun, and I remembered what the original reference, you may not even know, A little thing called WKRP in Cincinnati. See, I was more of the WNYC or something like that from the Howard Stern movie. There's that as well.

There's that as well. We're talking old school now. So we just did a really cool live stream event yesterday where we did a Q&A. We just played. I was like, that wasn't that cool. It wasn't that cool. It was cool. We didn't want to, we don't want to show our hand, man.

We did this live stream event all about solo piano. We got a couple questions about dealing with minor 251s. Yeah. And so I kind of realized, like, man, I don't think we've ever talked about minor 251s, which is crazy. Are we scared of them? Are we against them? I mean, traditionally, yes. Okay, I guess so.

They are. But I thought we could just maybe break down, like, the anatomy of a minor 251, each chord in the progression, how they relate to each other. And some things we can do to them, scales, voicing, substitutions, all kinds of stuff. Well, I think that that's a great idea. And considering today's episode is called dealing with minor two fives. I think we should do that. That makes a lot of sense, right? Let's do it.

All right. So what is a minor two five? What do we mean? When we say a minor 251. Well, it could mean a number of things, but I think typically

when a jazz musician says minor 251, what they mean is the two... Is a kid playing a 251? An underage person, right? It's a cadence... Yes, exactly. No, it's a cadence going

to a minor chord. Yep. And typically, the cadence is 251, and typically the two is a minor 7 flat 5 or half diminished. Yeah.

The 5 is a dominant 7, usually some kind of altered or alteration. I love it when you qualify with usually, but not always. That's right. And then the one chord is usually a minor sixth or minor major seven. Right. Occasionally.

Occasionally Dorian sound, like a minor seven sound. But when I'm talking about a minor 251. If you didn't give any more info. I mean that. You know, that's kind of what I mean. Well, and it's funny, you know, this takes me back to a day that young Alex over there would not understand, which is a little thing. called pre-internet when the world

existed before Google. And I remember hearing this like minor 25 and I was like, oh, you mean like a, like my understanding was so anecdotal and just like fabled. So I kind of learned what a 251 is. So I thought they meant, because you know, people say something, you're a kid and you don't want to like,

you want to be like, oh yeah, of course, minor two. I was like, wow, that's just like a regular 2-5-1. The minor I thought it was the 2-cord was minor. Like a minor 2-5-1. And you're like, oh yeah, isn't it always 2? The 2 is always minor. Exactly. But I was kind of, you know, a little bit afraid to speak up. Well, that's why I was kind of hedging my bets, though, too, when saying that typically, because sometimes you have a cadence going to a minor chord, where the two could be

a Dorian. Yeah, yeah. But it's still a minor 25, right? It just wouldn't be your typical usage. Definitely still a minor two five, but when I'm, you know, colloquially at the jam session, say minor two, I mean half to diminish two, altered five, and then... But the minor always means where you're going, the chord that you're going to. When we say minor two five, we mean the one is... This is not a minor two five, and that's what little young Peter thought it was. That's all I'm saying. Oh, so you thought this was a regular two-five. Yeah, that's right.

Exactly. I was a simple, I was a simple young lad. This is a major two-five-one. Well, but remember, I didn't know that it was between dominant and major seven, so it really didn't matter at that. Oh, man, I would have loved to have, like, hung with cocky young Peter. Oh, I was not cocky. Hard ideas about. Okay, so our first chord is the two chord, right?

So if we're in the key of C minor, which we are here, That's a half diminished, a minor 7, flat 5. It's a little bit of a despondent sound. Right? So just the basic chord itself here in root position is D, F, A flat, and C. Yeah. Right?

So what scales could we use over this half diminished? Crobatic. You can use that over anything. That's the safe bet, my friend. That's the safe bet. No, I think that the, isn't the typical would be that the B flat major? No, no, no, the E flat major

because it got that A flat in there. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. Ah, it's checking. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, because I can... Yeah, the Locrean, otherwise known as the Lochrian scale. Unless you want to play a wrong clashing note. Which is always cool, too.

Yeah, so that is, like, sort of step one is the Lochrian, the seventh mode of the... And that's if you want to do it straight down the middle, like, very... like especially if you're kind of anticipating, which I know we'll get into a lot of alterations on the five. Right. So you can kind of start her out down the middle,

and then your curve is, the curving is hitting on the five. That's right. And this is straight down the middle. And it makes sense, right? Because the lochrean is part of the E flat modes of scales, right? And so if we're in C minor here, that's the relative minor to E flat.

So it would make sense. I don't even think of it as the locrian. Like, I never think of a lochrean. If I'm playing the scale, I'm more thinking of it as, like an F. Dorian. Same notes. We should do a field trip sometime. We talked about this before, to Greece, where we

identify a lochrean and ionic. Because we confuse the terms even, like, we know what they sound like. If we could associate them with a physical object, I feel like we could nail it. It would be amazing, actually. No, I don't know how you think about this. Do you think like Locrian, I mean, I don't really think about the notes like this anymore, but if I'm thinking about

this is the seventh of E flat. Right. So I think about it more like, and sometimes I'll even play, you know, F minor, like I'm almost like It's like a 2-5 going to E-flat. But I think that stuff can be important. Like we say, okay, it's the same notes as these different scales. E-flat major, F, Dorian, E-Locrian, or whatever. But when you think, some people are like, oh, it doesn't matter how you think about it.

But for the sake of improvisation and really just conceptualizing how you're going to move around this progression. Because remember, it's like we very rarely sit on this except for maybe, I was going to say. But that's really more of a fully diminished, although it goes back and forth. So there's a song. But otherwise, we don't sit on this chord a lot. So it's always part of a progression. Totally. So if you think about the F minor, I think that you mentioned,

you can kind of arpeggiate that in a way that would be different than if you're thinking about it as E flat major. So if we're thinking about a lochrean, like for pianists, the problem can kind of come up about the nine, right? Because the nine is E flat here. Right? I mean, this is kind of a little ugly. It clashes a little bit with the root.

So when I'm voicing this on the piano, I almost think of this more of like some F minor sixth voicing. Yes. You know, that gets me to where I want to be with it. Yeah, and then it gives you that major seventh as you're melodically, your passing tone in. Totally. Right now we're getting into the next one, which is the super lochrean.

I like that. It's the same scale as the lochrean, but now we raise that nine to an E natural. We like it. Now this works in a lot of situations, modern situations especially, but it's not appropriate at all times. Like, if we're playing softly as in a morning sunrise. Yeah. Oklahoma is actually illegal.

Fun fact. Like to go there when the melody note is on E flat, you got to know where the melody is at all time and really kind of know what era you're aiming for this. But if it's more open, the melody note is not on that nine. I think it's all good. Yeah, and then you have your other kind of emphasis, you know, rhythmically and just like how loud you're playing

and where you're placing it when you're not playing the melody. that could make it work or not. You know, if you're like, bam, if you're like, you know, it becomes this very, like, you know, kind of integral parts of what you're playing and noticeable. So if you're not, like, if you're not totally sure what, like I can say you're a pianist and you're comping, right,

and you have this two five, minor two five. And you don't hear, like, the saxophone play you're comping under, like specifically go, you know, you want to be safe. Stick to those F minor, 6,9 voice, things. Yeah. And that, you know, that also. leads me to the, like,

if you look at that voice in A, flat, C, D, G, which is kind of a typical F minor, 6-9. A-flat C-D-G. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But over the D, that kind of makes me think of B-flat 13. And I definitely use that with a sharp 11. For sure. Depending on if you're doing this, the E-natural.

Either one, really. You can do E-flat or E-natural. And you can treat them where you're using as like, a passing tone, so you're playing it. It's never just about, can I play it and sit on it? Well, probably not, but you can play it. Right. I love the idea of a passing tone, because that to me invokes the blues in

C minor. Yeah, right? Having the E flat and E together. Yeah, and it's a little foreshattering because that's where we're going. And I love that sound. That's a good point. And that pulls us into the realities of this and even stopping to talk so long about just the two chord

is remembering that your melody is playing over these two five ones. You're going to stretch them over. They've got to fit, and it's always great to be playing where you're going. Those are the two main scales that you really want to use over this two chord, and we'll get into more on the five chord, there's a little more options that you can also

drag over to the two, but really, when I'm thinking just the two of this one, I'm thinking. So, substitutions for this minor 7, flat 5, I mean, the obvious one is first, is the tritone. Yeah, and that doesn't mean doing a tritone minor 7 flat 5. That's probably not going to work. You want to do a dominant 7, a flat, like if we're

D half-timinish, A-flat, 7, Yeah, A flat 7 sharp 11 Yeah, 13, yeah And that's actually gonna fit to the one I think you're gonna say next It's a similar kind of harmony over It's still, if you go, if you check that same thing The A flat 13 sharp 11

But then you go back to the two Oh yeah, yeah, sorry, that should have been the first one, right No, no, it doesn't matter, either one. Like D alt But it's, but the harmony on top of it's really the same. Yeah, like just subbing out D7 alt for that D7 half to manage That's really well

And that's a very different sound that and that's sharp a letter you know whether you got the E flat or whether you're natural you can also sub out the Dorian sound you know if it's appropriate yeah if like you're in a place where you're kind of in control

of where that harmony goes like I do that all the time on the trio gig especially if I'm like wanting to change it up within the solo well there's some tunes I can't think of I'll think of one in a second maybe like

oh that goes the major right but like if there's some yeah yeah where there's any kind of melody how high the moon does that to a minor. Oh yeah, the first time it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, there's a few tunes to do that, but it's a great kind of sub when you're wanting to switch up the sound and just like take that expectation of... To all of a sudden bust out like a... And by sub, you know, what you're describing is really like, just to clarify everybody, we move faster sometimes at the You'll Hear Podcast. But if you're sending a sub on a gig, You want to make sure they learn these chords, right?

Is that what you mean by that? Make sure they go the Locrean first. That's right. But those are really the most common subs. We're not going to get too crazy on the two chord. It's really just a setup for the five. Now, this is the five. We've got loads of ideas for the subs.

We don't have to get in all of them. We don't have to mention it. But let's move on to the five. In this two five in C minor, the five is G7. And what will most often play is an altered sound. Yes. Going to that C, right? Yeah.

And the first one that you played there is probably the most, typical inversion and kind of sound either in terms of the melody that you have, the improvisation, or just the general sound, flat 13 sharp 9. Yeah, totally. And the scale on this is the altered scale. Right, which starts with the half hole. Yes. And then turns into a hole.

You listened to last week's episode. I did listen to last week, all about the altered. But we actually did do an episode last week all about the altered scale. So go check that out if you want to learn more. We have to get super into that today. Yeah. But that's our first choice on this minor two, five, one. For some really strong reasons, the altered scale just leans into the minor chord so easily.

It's got that E flat in it, which is the third of C minor. You know, it's got that movement of, right? Yep. One, like, there's different ways to think about it. We'll talk about some different possibilities, but I always like to clue people in in case you're already thinking about like this or you want another way to hear it, even if you know these. And that is to take this chord, Sharp 9, Flat 13, and make just one little alteration. which would be 13 with a sharp 9,

which you might think, oh, that doesn't work because you're going to the minor. But sliding down... Right. Gives it actually a little more tension, whereas normally this altered to a major would give it more attention because you're moving off of it.

It's just the option if you like the sound. But it also, if we take a step back to that superlocrean, right, that two chord with the E natural. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that'll fit in there with it. And often I'll find myself doing...

Yeah, a little movement in there. It doesn't have to just be bam, you know, you can move this stuff around. So another scale for this five chord. Chromatic, chromatic, chromatic. Chromatic, always works, of course. One of our members, Elias, hit me to this, that bebop musicians would often use the C harmonic minor, right?

So wherever our root is going, in this case, C, it's the harmonic minor. Yeah, absolutely. It works so well. And as soon as I started playing this, I was like, of course that's what they're playing. It sounds just like it, you know? Yeah, and I think it's nice, too.

That's another example of kind of getting that E natural, that major third, because you know you're going to be going to the minor third. Oh, yeah, yeah, getting it in there. Sure, sure. So voicing's for this, you already mentioned this one, this one. I mean, just keep it straight up. Another voicing concept for this that we talked about over the altar is the triads. Yeah.

You know, in this case, E flat and D flat. Triads work really well Over the shell Yeah, absolutely Yeah, you don't have to get all Yeah, if you have shell and room And then learn the different inversions Even if you know this

Sure And then think about these Not just as voicings But think about them as melodic You know jumping off points So you get like And you're not going to just use these It might be something like

And this works really well With the Crobatic I joke about the Crobachicaa But this is a great thing because of the timing of the chromatic scale, you can still, you know what I'm saying? Can I get a C.H? But you've got like, you know, so many great.

Hashtag chromaticism. Hashtag chromaticism. Hashtag triads. Not the, not the Mexican gang, the triads. Different time of triads. Sorry. Hashtag too soon. Too soon. I say too soon.

No, but you got those like very foundational sounds, even though they're upper extensions, I guess. Whenever you start hitting some triads, you can throw in some chromaticism and get away with a lot of it in a very interesting way, That's awesome. So subs for the five on this.

I mean, we have our typical, you know, you could just go straight up dominant, like we mentioned with the two. Yeah. A lot of drama. And then, of course, the tritone going to that D-flat 7, sharp 11. Same scale. Yeah, it works great. And then, you know. And that one, when it's D-flat, I would say the Lydian dominant is kind of your typical place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you know what? A sub on the backing up to the two that I just thought of that I used to love to do is, is the Neapolitan 6th. Oh, I love that sub. Text me her number. I want to use her on a gig coming up to sub for me. Yeah.

How great is that? Man, Naples, great substitutions, great pizza. Come on now. That's awesome. And then I think another great sub that you can use that, I don't know a lot if a lot of people are hit to, is the. Oh, I like that. Chromatically up from B7 altered.

Oh, yeah. A little sliding up from the low. A little gossip. feel. What's so great about this, going to the minor, so many common tones. Yeah.

Right? Because the B7 uses the C melodic minor as its scale. What about a little G2? Oh, you know what I'm saying. It's a C minor 11.

That's nice. Ooh, that's good. Yes. All right, let's get to the one. That's so pretty, though. Let's get to the one of our 251. Okay.

Too basic. Too soon. So the one in these minors is typically the minor six or the minor major seven. Minor major seven, can I get a what, what? Yeah, yeah. The minor six can be built off either the Dorian, right, or the melodic minor.

Either one. The ascending melodic minor? Well, it's in jazz. We do both ways. I know what you're talking about. Which way do we do it? Oh, that's right. It doesn't matter.

Oh, because this is Aeolian. Right. Back to Greece. Oh, boy. Are these actual structures? The Aolian-Ionian? Are we visiting Greece? I literally cannot say one word in Greek,

except for Dorian, Ionic, ironic. It's ironic that I can't say anything besides it. Hashtag wonderlust. Okay. So, hashtag Aphrodite. So, yes, we have our minor six, which could be the Dorian or the melodic minor, and then we have our minor major seven,

which is always going to be some kind of melodic minor, or harmonic minor, something with that D natural. If it's really scary, hashtag Medusa. Oh, whoa. Oh, you broke it. You broke it. Okay, the scale for that is any of your minor scales, either the Dorian, the melodic minor,

the harmonic minor. Absolutely. And then voicing, you know, melodic minor voicings, they're really fun because there's like, you know, just like for that D half diminish, you were saying like this is kind of like a B flat. Yeah, yeah, right? So these C minor six voicings,

I think a lot F, like F7. Yeah, yeah. And if you're going just left hand, you know, there's the typical, you know, minor 36-9. Yeah. You can throw the fourth in as it were. But these are really good diatonic movers. A lot necessarily for using every one of those is like a static thing. But for when you're like...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're sitting there for minutes. Because that gives you... That's chromatic. That's great. The diatonic stuff, I think, works good. That's great. All right.

Substitutions for the one. I love substituting the one. The first one that comes to mind is a little false cadence. Oh, well, yeah, you can do that. That's really false. That's the major. It's really, really taking them somewhere. I was going to set that up a little bit with maybe like a suss.

Oh, yeah. Right, so you get a little... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know where I'm going with that? Totally right. Another one you could do, though, is we got our D-Haffed-de-Fished. We got our G7. If the preacher's not done yet, you got a vamp on something.

A flat major seven. Oh, yeah. Is it really a minor 2-5 anymore? It's just how to repeat that. It's a false game, man. It totally counts. Yeah, and then you can still get there. That was a little ironic.

Yeah, and so, yeah, those are great. Really, anything? You could also think of the false ones is really just, you know, delaying the inevitable kind of, for sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's so good. You've done this before.

And then it's still good fall. I mean, if we're setting that up, we might as well just go. We're still going to Greece. Oh, come on. Let's let's stand with that. Nice. All right, so those are our minor 251s. And some bonus.

You know, that's not everything you can do, but that's just kind of a basic overview of what we are thinking about when we're playing these chords. And it changes basically, you know, with what's happening on stage at any given time. I think my whole attitude towards minor two, five, once has been uplifted from 17 minutes ago, man. Uplit my minor two. Oh, you need to get into that.

Young Peter thought that was a minor two. That Jacob Collier's super Lydian, super dynamic dynamite Lidion or whatever he calls it. Super parachute pants. Awesome. Well, till tomorrow. You'll hear it.