You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Diminished Scales & When To Use Them

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

It's another live edition of You'll Hear It where Peter and Adam take your questions. Today, Peter and Adam take questions on diminished scale usage, what to do when you get fired, and how to learn to play what you're thinking.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Wednesday's Open Studio Live Events (All Times EST):1:00 PM - Adam's Daily Guided Practice Session (for Members Only)3:00 PM - Edu Ribeiro + Alex Acuña | Drum Conversations + Q&A on YouTubeFor the rest of this week's calendar, follow this linkLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Okay, Brian says, diminished scale usage. It's the same scale if you use it over a dominant seventh versus a diminished court, right? I hear you referred to it as whole half versus half. Does it matter? It does matter a little bit, but it is all the same notes, Brian. So, Peter, can I use you as my guinea pig here? Because I don't have you working. I still don't.

I tried to, can you hear that? Come on it. You got to get that right. You got to get it going to that right channel, Browski. Oh, my gosh. How do I do this? No, just tell me what's play. I got you, man. We're partners. Okay, so play in your left hand, play F, A, A, F, A, B, and E.

F. Am I left hand? In your left hand, F below middle C, F, A, A, flat, B, and E. F, A, A, F, B, and E. There you go. I can hear that. Okay. Now play an F whole half to him into scale over that. Right, so Brian, here's the whole half. It's F, G, A, flat, B, B, C-sharp, D, E, right? And as you notice, if you plays that voicing in the left hand of F, A, flat, B, and E, that's an F diminished voicing, and you would use the F whole half.

So the whole half, diminished scale, from the root, can be used over a diminished chord. Right? So the whole half diminished scale, so again, if you have, oh, look, he's got the cordy. Oh, my gosh, the cat. I don't want to show off, but, you know. Okay, so play, yeah, so there you go. That's right. So F diminished chord and then play this, that scale just above it, the F whole half-diminished scale above.

Right. Okay. Now, play that same voicing, but drop a G below it. Yeah, now play that scale starting on G, though, this time. Same notes, but start on G. So this is how it becomes that F-hole half-diminished. If you just move it up and start it on G, it becomes a half-hole diminished. and it could be used over a G13 flat 9, as you see here.

Same voicing. But if you put a G in the base instead of an F, now it's a dominant flat 9 chord, and you can use the same notes, but it's just easier to think about it now as starting on G as a half-hole diminished. But it sounds good as, you know, F-d diminished or G7 flat-9.

And we've been working on this a lot over in the Daily Guy of Practice session, and a few people are like emailing me like, I don't know what it is this time, but it's really clicked. And that's a good feeling, you know, because it's as, as complicated as it kind of seems at first when you're learning it here,

like when you kind of lock it in, you realize like, oh, there's only four shapes for each one. Like, and that's all we got to do. Like, it's just these three different patterns and we got it, you know?

So, yeah. Good luck, Brian. And just keep at it. Because once you understand diminished scale harmony, uh, and it kind of becomes second nature, it's really,

it gets really, really fun. Yeah. And I would just add that, another way to look at it and kind of reasoning why it is different well it's the same notes

of course diatonically you know starting at a different place that's why Adam said start the same scale but it started on a G instead but it's the same thing like with learning the mode so you've got like a C major let's if I can do this here you've got a C major

and if you go to the mode the D minor D Dorian you might say well that's just the same as a C major scale. But when we're thinking about applications for improvising over it, it's very different, like, how we even conceptualize and finger that scale. Because the important notes, scales are never like just sitting in a vacuum by themselves. Like, it's always intertriam with the, you know, the arpeggios, the upper extensions and these kind of things. So you, even though you're playing the same notes. And sometimes, like, with the diminished, we are generally going to finger them the same. I think from my. Most of our fingerings, when we diatonically shift, we actually have the exact same fingers. But still, we want to be thinking about them like that G as different than that F, where we're

really highlighting that diminished pattern that lies within that over an F diminished as opposed to the G, where we're still highlighting the one three, one three, five, seven, but then flat nine, sharp 11, and treating those as alterations as opposed to some diatonic diminished situation. That's right. That's right. Well, I hope that helps, Brian. It's very satisfying when we start to get it, especially in all the keys and through all of the different dominant chords you can use and all the different diminished chords. But don't get too caught up on it. It's just a sound after all. Right. Exactly. He says, yeah, but it's the same scale, right? It doesn't matter where you start. I mean, yeah, for learning it and understanding it and fingering it and conceptualizing, I think it does matter. Would you agree with that, Adam? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it is the same notes, so that is something that makes it maybe easier to understand. Yeah. But understanding how it is from where it starts and how to use it against the chords is a different kind of thing. And these things are like always like, you know, how we learn them and understand and do the pattern recognition is important. Because in terms of like, does it matter where you start when you're improvising, of course, of course it doesn't matter where you start. But on the other hand, you would never on either one of the. these go or if it was an F diminishing, you're not going to improvise like that.

It's always choosing different places to start or whatever. But in terms of like understanding this, like I always like to try to learn something from its most basic kind of root position where it starts like, and then you build out from that because the more advanced things like, and even like with scales, this is a more advanced scale. So it's like you start with major and mind,

then to go through the minor, then you go through the modes of the major scale, then the modes of the mind. You know, like you build up from a basic scale. place because that gives your ears a chance to understand this to acclimate and to really be able to to draw on the things that you're going to need to become a great improviser. All right, we got one here from our friend Joe in H-town. What do you know about this?

I know a little something about this. This is, can you guys talk about times you got fired? If you want to make it useful, you can mention what you learned. Would you like to go first on this, Adam? Oh, by the way, Adam, you're fired. Oh, geez, this was Joe. Did you know about that? Let's make this real right now.

Wow. Well, I feel a little bit broadsided, confused. I thought things were going well. No, you know what? Actually, so my, the first, like, gig that really meant something to me, I got fired from. And it was with legendary local saxophonist here, Willie Aiken. He hired me when I was like a senior in high school to start playing with him. And, you know, I was good, but I wasn't as committed as I could have been at that time. There were other things that had my interests as, you know, 17. year old boys do. And I was in his band for like six months and he's like, he called me. And, and this was a huge lesson, actually. I was really glad this was the first time I got fired because he was very straightforward. He's like, hey, listen, I'm going to go with someone else for the rest of, for the Saturday night gigs. And then for after your, you know, this month is done, then we're going to go somewhere else. And he's like, and here's why. Here's what you need to work on. Like he was very specific about like, you need to get your comping together here. You don't understand these tunes like this, you are faking the funk on some of the Latin stuff, whatever.

Well, I forget exactly what he said, but I remember he like really took some time and gave you some really good feedback. And I started working on all that stuff that he was telling me about. And then about a year later, he heard me playing out somewhere with someone else. And he hired me back. And I was in his band then for like two years and had a great time and got to play with some amazing musicians, great stuff, you know, that I did while I was with. And I was with. him. And it was a great lesson of not only how to how to get fired and how to like overcome that feeling. Because even as great as he was with it, it still felt terrible. You know, you feel like such, you don't feel great about it. But right. I worked hard at what he suggested. I had tons of respect

for the way he did it and his opinion on, you know, what he wanted. And I, uh, I learned a lot from that actually. It was a great experience, which sounds weird about being fired, but it really was. It was very, very good experience for me. Well, I think that, yeah, I mean, the getting fired and what you can learn from it and how you can grow from it, it really takes, you know, I mean, look, as musicians, we get teased for being sensitive, but we are, you know. I mean, this is like to be an artist, you have to be kind of in touch with your emotions and being able to display them and doing a lot of things that in our culture now would be considered sensitive. So it's painful. It's not like, you know, there's no way to. not get wrapped up in our so-called job because we love music you know you're a musician you're trying

to play music you love it and so if you get fire it's not like getting fired from a job where it's like ah you know maybe you don't feel great about it but you're like whatever i didn't really like that anyway your identity is not so wrapped up around it but when your identity and it's your passion it's very hard not to be hurt by that and so um i think that it's sort of like the scales thing like what you learn from it and looking back like now you're all positive about it but you took that but that took a little bit of time adam to get a positive attitude about getting fired you know that's just the sort of nature of it but yeah never feels great but it can be a great experience yeah but you're going to generally you know glean that benefit from the firing years later you know

and for a lifetime though but it can be such a like character building situation and then it also i was look at that is like a great test because we are so wrapped up in our identity with this passion that we have as musicians that if you get fired like can you persevere can you say you know what i i believe that my passion and my talent and mainly my passion and my commitment to doing this is bigger than anything external you know like the internal drive that i have to do this is what matters and so there's nothing like getting fired especially by a great musician you get fired by like some crappy club or something that's a lot easier to justify you know but i would say for anybody that gets fired to

what you meant what adam mentioned about willy aiken's giving him specific things to work on that's a good sign because that means he cares that means he saw promising you and he is a great was a great musician and a great teacher so that's somebody that i would be very it would be very disheartening to get fired by willy aiken and he just say you're fired and and no nothing and no, no chance. It's almost like he doesn't believe there's any chance for redemption for you. And so I think that for people that are, they get fired. And look, it's going to happen to everybody. It's how it has happened to everybody. And it will happen to you. So if it's from somebody that's great, um, you have to find the silver line. You have to find the learning like the

later on learning will come. The growth and development that you get from it. That's hard because you can't hold on to that for a while. But if they're saying something and sometimes you have to ask them, Like not everybody's going to be as giving as Willie Aiken was and just sort of tell you. So even if you're young, like if you get fired, you should always ask, you know, never be so angry. I mean, I don't know. You could be angry if it's like not your fault or you feel like they don't know what they're talking about. But if you respect the person and you can get over your anger about this situation or you're hurt or your pain, ask why, you know. And actually lately I've been in a situation where I had to fire somebody and I can say that that's,

That's like, that's harder in a lot of ways than being fired. But I tried to like really think about the times when I was fired and released from different situations or not asked back. I mean, they're all just different forms of being fired. But, um, and thought about this very thing of like telling the person exactly the areas. But it's always going to be up to them. If they want to take that for growth or if they just want to say, oh, whatever. He doesn't know what he's talking about. But yeah, I was like the key to that is is what our friend Jill and Davino would say, which is clear as client.

clear as kind, first of all. Exactly. And then, you know, you know, you don't, it might be a situation where telling them like, and here's why is a little not on point. But if you honestly do think that they have potential as a person and in their endeavors with what they're doing, yeah, I think it's, it's perfectly acceptable to be like, I'm, I hate to have to do this and here's why I'm doing it. And I, I want you to, you know, if you could take whatever you want out of that, but this is, these are the reasons for me. Yeah. And then, You know, always, this kind of depends on the timing of it.

But I found for me several times when one door closed, I was able to either the other door was sitting right there. I was able to kind of look for it. It sort of pushed me into the thing that I should be doing anyway, you know. So that's really more into the category, I think of that, you know, blessing in disguise kind of thing. So even if you feel like established and you're like, wow, okay, this, this band or this gig. they're firing me or releasing me or it's not happening anymore. I don't know. This maybe is even more in the category of like something just ending,

you know? That's the other thing. It's not always just like you're getting fired. There's a lot of, you know, gradients in between. There's, I mean, I played in a band for a while and they were like,

the band leader was like, oh, I'm going to end the band. And they didn't really say like, but I'm going to hire a whole other band. I'm like, well, that's not really ending the band.

That's just firing the rhythm section, isn't it? Yeah. So it's like a nice way. It's kind of like, you know, well, you're fired, but don't worry if you want a recommendation. We won't say you're fired. We'll just kind of leave it nebulous and up in the air. But the thing is ended.

The thing is ended the band. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The band is, whatever this is. Oh, now we have a new band that has the same name. Yeah, whatever this is is gone. Yeah. This. That happens sometimes.

Huh? That happens. A, C.J. Green has a question up here, which I'm so happy to do this because I can't play. Down or up for what we just did. Just down from what we just did, how do you learn to play what you're thinking? Lowercase, CJ Green there. Okay. I'm looking.

I'm looking. How do you learn to play what you're thinking? So it's funny you asked this, CJ, because we just did down in the daily guide of practice session, which, by the way, I talk about a lot here. If you're an open studio member or you want to be an open studio member, we do practice every day, live on Zoom. And then that goes to an app that you can practice with us. They're all guided practice sessions. They're like little workouts for piano. So CJ says, how do you learn to play what you're thinking?

And we have a whole thing that we've been kind of working on over there for just this thing. I call it clearing the path, right? So we have this music. Ideally, we have music in our head, right? And so we want to clear a path that's from the music within us, within our heads, within our hearts, however you want to say it, out to our instrument, but ultimately really to our audience. So the instrument is just a conduit to this. I mean, it is an important part of it.

But all of the machine is us and the instrument together, right? And it's the music that is in our head is the most important thing. How do we get it out with the least resistance possible? So facility on the instrument definitely helps. That's a huge help. And so some technical work and technical practice is necessary, for sure, to help get the sound that's in your head out. Some listening definitely helps, like getting a lot of sounds

and being discerning about what, what it is you want to say. But when we have music in our head, again, what's the best way to do it? I think there's actually a way to practice this. Peter, can you hear me now still? Yes. Okay.

I can't hear you. We're going to work this on Peter a little bit. So great. So Peter, can you play just two octaves of B major scale, please? Two octaves of B major scale? Please. However, whatever tempo you want. Okay, so you've heard that and you've heard yourself play,

that. I want you to do it again, but okay, you have a road sound there. I want you to imagine now the most perfect version of that scale being played, where everything is the exact same duration, the same volume, your hands are hitting at the perfect amount of time. And you might even consider like what would it sound like if one of my idols or someone who's sound I really love, like Herbie Hancock, you know, especially if you're a beginner, this is very helpful. Like, what would it sound like if Herbie Hancock perfectly played this? So give it a shot. thinking of that sound before you play. Crucial, Peter, don't try to make that happen.

Just try to hear it. That's the exercise. Hear it as I'm playing or before? Just as you're playing. So as you're playing, try to hear what that would sound like. Okay. It's a little, but the feel of that was so much different than the first time. And the act of trying to hear it, right, in a pristine way,

and then just letting go of the results, which you did perfectly, by the way, letting go of what happened. Thank you very much. But using that muscle of trying to hear something. Now, I always use a really simple technical exercise like this to start because this is actually a great way to practice what improvisers have to do all the time, which is you're hearing a sound in you. It's usually from one of your heroes, like or influenced by one of your heroes, and you're trying to get it out to the instrument. And that's something that you can practice, even with these major scales or we use chromatic scales sometimes, really things that you don't have to think a lot about technically. you can do this with different dynamic levels,

you can do this with different articulations, but the idea is you're trying to hear the sound, your ideal sound at your instrument today. What does that sound like? And what does it sound like when it's perfect? And then let go of the results. Don't try to do that. Just try to hear it because that's, that is the game.

So there's two things that usually happen, CJ, when you do this. One, usually play, as Peter just demonstrated, even though he had a couple of wrong notes there, The feel of it was so incredible that second one when he was hearing the sound. You usually have this amazing connection to what you're playing. And a B major scale can become the most musical situation in your whole day. It's amazing. But then also, because you're letting go of the effort, right?

Because you're letting go of the results. There's zero effort involved. You're not clenching. Like usually when you try to play a perfect major scale, you clench your jaw, right? And you really give it a go. And you play the crappiest major scale. scale that you will ever hear in your life, right? But if you can just hear it in the way that is in you and let go of that, I find that not only is it a much better sounding situation,

but it's a lot easier. Oh, man, that's some gold. That's some golden nuggets right there. I hope you all heard that. This guy, this guy, right? Where is he? Where is he? He's right here. He's right there. Hey, hey, hey, that's great stuff. I mean, that's, look, that's, that's very much in the spirit of you'll hear it and why we titled this and why we use that phrase and why in jazz music it's such a cornerstone of you know our attitude about how we approach telling our story through our instrument and the things that then go into practice the ways that we practice the methodology that we use I mean it's very much based around this so It's like a fun little thing that we say, you'll hear it.

Oh, don't worry, you'll hear it. But really, it's like I think we try to practice and listen to music and talk about music and just be a community of aspiring artists based upon this being the goal that you can say to each other, oh, don't worry, you'll hear it. Because that's such a great and freeing thing. And even like what I just did with mistakes with warts and all, it's like that's the whole. point of you'll hear that's what that's what you know failing at different things when you practice and but still going for that same goal that's what it's about like we're going for a really big mountain here we're trying to do mount everest mount michael mount kilimanjaro we're not going for the little crappy hill in forest park we already know how to do that you know so once you're going for something

you're going to stumble you're going to do you know ironic that it would be on a major scale for me but that's okay you know we all got work to do i'm glad it happened though because that that that is part of that process of letting go of what happens, right? Because I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what's not going to happen. You're not going to be on a concert and you're going to be able to completely let go of what happens. We always kind of really cling to caring about how we sound.

But we're always working to really get out of the way of that. And that's all BS. And really what is important is what we're hearing in the moment with the people that were around with the other musicians on stage and with the audience that we're trying to connect with. So I think that act, right, of really trying to let go of what actually happens. Someone mentioned Kenny Warner here. Kenny Warner has a little bit of a take on this too of, of, he is an exercise where

you just put your hand on the piano and you immediately say this is the most beautiful sound I ever heard. Kind of a similar situation. But what I like about the hearing the sound first is you can have a little more control, right? Because you can actually say like, okay, what would it sound like if Keith Jarrett played this scale right now? To me, that is a very specific sound, you know?

Yeah. I might never get close to it, but I think it's good for me to flex that muscle of, what is it? And it's also good to just think about, like, what is it that I want to play? Like, how do I want this major scale to sound, as opposed to just throwing your fingers at it

and praying and hoping for the best, you know, to actually have a point of view is an important development as well. Yeah. And I think, you know, one way we can think about this is, like you say, flexing and flexing that muscle we can think about it as activating our musical imagination. You know, this is,

this is very much an exercise for doing that. So imagination, we're always thinking of it being, of making things up. But if you imagine something, it can very much be like this where you're imagining Keith Jarrett's sound. And that's based upon maybe a memory you have of seeing him live or more likely listening to a recording over and over again.

But then there's also how your imagination wraps, all those experiences up. It's really about like how he looks when he plays the great memories you've had of complete performances. And like there's a number of things that go into that. It's because you've never actually heard Keith Jared or Herbie Hancock play a major major scale on its own probably like this. So you're, we're able to imagine something that somebody that we know does.

You know, like if, you know, if Adam's like, I wonder what Peter Peter's chocolate chip cookies would taste like if he were to cook some. I've never done it. I have eaten a lot of them, but I haven't done it. But you knowing me could probably figure out some things about how it might be. And this is a great thing, like not only for the specific exercise, but for activating the exact kinds of our musical imagination that we need to be great improvisers. You know, because that's just a muscle you have to work on. And all the theory and all the technique, the imagination and able to be able to craft a story is just, if not more important.

I like it that Nick says jaw is not all that gets clenched sometimes when you're trying really hard it's not just the jaw we clenched that's true Nick that's true that's right