You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Do All Modern Jazz Musicians Really Sound The Same?

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Adam and Peter offer their take on the Andy Edwards video claiming that all modern jazz musicians sound the same. Want to watch the video or yourself? You can find that here. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Oh, hey. There you are. I'm right here. What's up? Do you ever, like, reminisce about back in the good old days when everybody played the right way and learned the right way? I hate it when old dudes do that. Although, yes, I do.

I'm doing it more and more I've been noticing. Hang on your old dude hat because we're about to get into it. I'm Adam Mattis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear Podcast. Music Advice coming atcha. Coming at you, this is an open studio podcast. Peter, how you doing?

I'm good. How are you? I'm doing pretty well, man. I didn't mean to throw you off there at the beginning, but I was looking out the window. We're here in the pod front with the beautiful summer. No, we're in spring. Are we in spring or summer? We're in spring.

We're in spring. We're in spring. Shout out to the pod front. You know, I know we have a lot of people. Hi. A lot of people have been following us for quite a while. Some people remember the pod cave. Ooh.

And then there was the musty pod cave. The musty pod cave. Then there was the pod suite. RIP POT suite. All of it was very stifling. None of it we could see the outdoors. It was like we were in severance. Do you ever watch that show?

Watch a little bit. Once we were in the podcasting. It was a claustre full big pot. It was terrible. It was to get hot in there. There's lights everywhere. Like up in our faces with the cameras. This, you know, we got producer Caleb.

Producer Caleb, show him your Caleb Cam. Caleb Cam. Yeah, he's producer Caleb. We hadn't seen that in a while. This is a new one. And the mic, you know? And a mic. And a mic.

Nice. Like you're a real member of the team. Right. That's right. But also, shout out to Tina. and Sunshine Drainer. You love you some Tina.

I love Tita. Tino is a boss who came in and like hooked up our shades here so we can have it. We are not sponsored by Tina nor Sunshine

States but we do appreciate them. Sunshine if you're listening. We sponsored them. No, no, Tina listens to like Jazz Cafe on Sirius. That's right. So she's not listening to it.

Coffee house. Coffee house. But they did like, it's so nice to have this window on a sunny day. Do you have one of these? I have a few. Actually,

this is going back to daily jazz advice. My children. RIP daily. My children wear. these as pajamas in the winter. The pajamas, say that it. Like, say that again. Say that again.

Not pajamas. Pajamas. Pajamas. Pajamas. Pajamas. Pajamas. And so it is weird to like, you know, tucking them in and there's like, that's my face on a shirt.

That's weird. Oh, wow. Okay. So what, explain to the people, explain to the folks what we're doing today because I'm a little bit, we're going to kind of react, but you've seen this video and I haven't. So there's a, yeah, there's a video going around. What the hell's going on? There's a video that's been sort of.

of making the rounds on a lot of musicians, social media. Some musicians, not a ton, but I've seen it a few times come up. It's from a drummer and producer in the UK, and I guess a YouTuber named Andy Edwards. And he seems like a pretty knowledgeable dude, but he's been, he made this YouTube video called Why Do Modern Jazz Musicians all sound the same. Sounds like a rant. It is kind of a rant. And it's, I've got to, it's been kind of,

irking me this video. I was going to say you seem conflicted already. No, I'm not conflicted. I'm just it's a very irky topic for me because I irksome. It's irksome because it's something that keeps coming up and by the way it's been coming up for since I was a kid that young musicians all sound the same and nobody's doing it right and I just think you're wrong when you think that right because to me it's a sign that you're not uh well we'll get into it does this go along with the whole jazz is dead jazz is dying because it goes along with everybody's burq Berkleified now, Berkeleyified. Berkleified. I like it.

Or, you know, nobody is regionalized, so everybody kind of has the same sound. And I just think the evidence is not there to back it up. And even Andy's thoughtful rant here is, and especially the comments, I just do, in his video, I just do not agree with the sentiment that is being presented here. So maybe we should watch a little bit of it. I'd love to get your thoughts on it too. Yeah. You can be a bit of an old crank sometimes.

Yes, every day I'm becoming more and more of that. And listen, it's not that I don't have complaints, believe me, but I just don't think this is where it's at. Okay. Check out Andy's... Oh, there you are. Hello, and welcome to this video. I spotted a comment on one of my videos recently.

He said a spotted comment? He spotted a comment. I read it, and then it went around my mind, and I'd have to go through all the comments and search to find out who wrote it. So I apologize for whoever suggested this, but I am going to take on the question that was asked. I love it already. Okay.

I'm supposed to be reacting, right? You're a fan. Okay. In this comment, which was, why do all modern jazz musicians sound the same? Wait, pause it? Okay. Hate it. Okay.

Episode over. Sorry, Andy, we were going to do a hot-cake. I loved it. Well, no, I mean, I can see where this is going, but I'm keeping an open mind. Okay. So, I sort of. agree with this. I have a big

network of musicians I know. We're always checking out new players and very often someone will go, oh, Andy, because I'm a drummer. Sorry. A big network, okay, let's just clarify what that is and what that means to that. And I'm saying this is right or wrong. It means he's got a lot of musician friends.

No, but is it that or does he have a lot of connections on seeing other people commenting on his videos or other videos? Because that's a different thing, isn't it? probably like all of us, it's a mix of all this stuff. We are constantly taking in things on social media that's part of our sort of peripheral network, but then you also have

your personal connections. But if we don't separate what those are, that's a little bit of a danger sign. Again, keeping an open mind, but a little bit of a danger sign to me. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Go and check this drummer out. You've got to check this drummer out, and they'll send me a link across. And I can sort of predict what

I'm about to see. You know, the Mod jazz drummer is going to do a whole ton of things. and we know what they're going to do. The virtuosa level of modern jazz players is off the charts now. You know, everybody is incredible. unbelievably fast, they're blistering. They're going to be play the sort of, you know, gospel chops derived fills.

We're going to be getting the sort of metric modulation. We're going to have, you know, the sort of crossovers between the high hats and the floor time. I can sort of predict what I'm about to see. Now, to me, that tells me more about his friend circle than modern jazz drummers, right? If they're sending you people that are just all doing the same. And if you, if your experience is everybody's doing the same thing, I just feel like you're not, that's not my experience. Right. And it's also the, it can be both things, though.

You know what I mean? It can be both. Like if you get the, maybe the links that he's getting, it can start to seem like, oh, everyone's sort of coming from the same place. There isn't a variety. There's a predictability. But is it a good, like, is it technically really good? is the vocabulary that you can see the commonality win with, is it good stuff?

But what are the chances that in 1960, with half the population in the planet that we have now, that it was different. And no, like, jazz program, or very few jazz programs. Yeah. What are the chances it was different than, and it's different, it's way different now.

Well, the thing is, okay, so nice, you'd get, maybe you'd get sent a bunch of videos if that technology was there. No, you wouldn't. But, like, if every one of them was, like, as revolutionary, monk than none of them are. Like you might get a hundred of them and there's one monk. That's the beauty of it. I was just making the point that, you know, he's, he's pre-judging it. He's pre-judging. He's

setting it up like, you know, his friends are sending him, hey, you got to check out this drummer and he can almost predict. And to me, that's like, well, it must be because your friends are sending you the same kind of people. Right. You're predicting what your friends are going to send you more than what modern drummers play. And it might be the algorithm is, is predicting more what you're going to like or not like than that. That seems to be the case right across the board. if someone says check this guitarist out, I know I'm going to get something, which is somewhere between Mathini, Schofield, and Holdsworth.

You know, there's going to be that sort of... Again, that's... Have you a Dan Wilson? Yeah, Dan Wilson. I said like that might be your algorithmic bias. And now, if we go back, say, to the 1950s, and I would say, you know,

name some jazz pianists, so let's say Thelonious Monk, Dave Brubeck, Bud Powell, Bill Evans. There's four pianists off the top of my end So I really haven't prepared this Each of those is a whole complete world Of difference to the next one

They're instantly recognisable I've just You know, filmed a video in Jacko Pastorius The overriding thing that came out of that Because I mean, listen to so much Jacko recently Jock is as soon as Jacko's on that album You go, oh, Jacko's on that album Jacko?

Yeah, as soon as Monon's on an album You go, oh, mononion's on the album I think there's always so much history bias in that we've have so much separation from the time from the 1950s of Bud Powell, Monk, Bill Evans, and you say Brubeck. And each one of them is very different. But also, you know, if you listen to Bill Evans' first trio recording in the 50s, and you listen to McCoy Tyner's first trio recording in the 50s, late 50s, maybe 60, they don't sound as different as they did five, ten years later.

Right. They sounded way more similar. Right. It was more of a Winton-Kelly strain between both of them. And Herbie, too. Some solos, you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between McCoy and Winton, Kelly. Some solos, and now we're listening, now we're listening everybody who has their own world of music, but there's, don't forget, you know, a ton of good, really good, great players

that are not their own worlds of music as much as those distinct players that he mentioned. So would you be able to tell the difference between Tommy Flanagan and Sunny Clark straight away? Right. You know, that's going to be a little more challenging. Right. And there's way more of those players at that time than there are these Bill Evans level, Philonious Monk levels. And if you can't, like, Sonny Clark and Tommy Flan, it doesn't take away from... It doesn't mean they're bad, but that means there was a zeitgeist and that a lot of, the majority of players sounded very much alike.

Yeah. And yes, we celebrate Monk because he was so different. But I would... And yes, there are today plenty of piano players that sound alike and have a very much influenced by Brad Meldow, Robert Glasper. But there is Brad Meldow and Robert Glasper. That's right. And those two people are still walking this earth. And you cannot say that Robert Glasper has not created his own world of music.

And you cannot say Sullivan Fortner has not created in a very short amount of time his own world of music. Or Gerald Clayton or James Francie's or Brad Meldow. those people sound very distinctive to me. I consider them to be, and especially with the people who are more kind of our age who have been around for a while,

you know they are because now they're being ripped off like crazy by sort of people that are figuring it out or not going to be as dramatically great musicians, right? That's the process. When we look 50 years from now, you're going to look back and say, oh, Robert Glasper, Brad Meldow,

Sullivan Fortner, those three, like, created a whole thing for themselves. Right. And it's so situational too, especially when you get away, I mean, we always are thinking about pianists, of course. The piano has such a, we like to think of it as such a conduit for such individuality, but really like, you know, a saxophone, a vocalist or whatever, it's going to be like, well, they sound like them and you can tell it's them, whether you like their style, whether you think it's derivative, whether you think, I mean, aren't people much more less likely to be like, oh, all this singers sound the same now? They might be like, they might be

like, oh, they all, like, there was a period where most vocalists in a lot of different genres, like, I'm thinking like 80s and 90s, like, were very influenced by Stevie Wonder, the way that he phrased and stuff, which I thought was such a beautiful thing. Yeah. You know, like, you have these forces of music that

come and go, not necessarily come and go, they come and then they stay, and they influence the way. Same thing with, you know, piano, same thing with whatever. But it's like, if you were to hear Christian McBride in certain recordings, even recent things, and you might be like, wait, is that Ray Brown?

Yeah. Or that's not a bad. It doesn't mean he's, that everybody sounds the same, but it means in certain situations, Christian McBride, because of the influence he had personally on recordings and also playing with Ray Brown and the influence there's certain times when he's going to go into, not even consciously, but that's going to come out. That's a beautiful connection.

That's not a, everybody sounds the same. Another interesting thing is, again, the bias of looking back on something from a long way away, whereas there are instances, interviews with people who are musicians from before the 50s, pre-bobb, whose people were people like Teddy Wilson and Fats Waller and Art Tatum, who considered Bud Powell and everyone else around them

to be completely derivative and sound the same. It's all this like, that's what they talked like it was. It's not real music. No one's got a left hand. It's all the same shit, right? That's his perspective

on people now who are younger than him and making music. And I just want to say, like ask a 20-year-old if every drummer that they get sounds the same because they don't hear that the same way. They're hearing they're open to the differences and they can hear sort of the more modern influences that we as older musicians are not hearing. Yeah. And that's okay. Like we don't have to hear that, but you have to acknowledge that it's not like if you're hearing everything is myopic, it's probably because you're not.

But everybody's kind of like digging it. Yeah. There's probably some blind spots that you have here with this. Right. You know, nothing against you, Andy. I don't know. But like, you might just consider that as like, think about how stride pianists would look at Bud Powell and his generation. It would all seem very myopic.

We've got such, I mean, when you have that separation of several decades, there's the opportunity for not only the music, but for our kind of categorization and like, oh, they were influenced this. This is this sound. Like to crystallize in a way and for us to look at it and be like, oh, we can identify what you. that is whereas in real time it's harder to do that. But that's an exciting thing too, to be able to experience it in real time. But it shuffles out with time. Like I said, 30 years from now, this era, you're going to know who the drummers were who are actually like pushing things forward.

Right. And by the way, we're not even mentioning there are musicians doing things on the fringes that are super weird and creative. There always are. And even those get sort of sifted through the sands of, the greater of, through the sifter of time. as we sift through the music. So we go back to a little of prof, Andy here.

Sure. Okay. Oh, yeah. Do you hear that? Oh, doesn't he sound amazing? You can hear him beaming out. Okay? I think this is the first place we can start

to try and explore why individualism in jazz has diminished. I'm sure people are going to now start shouting all sorts of musicians at me, which they believe. are highly individual, okay? Yeah. But we are talking about not individual cases here, but a certain trend. And I think the fact that a number of people have said this to... But you are talking about individual cases.

Again, could you tell the difference between Richie Powell and Hank Jones straightaway? Right. You know what I mean? Right. Well, also, maybe this is partly a byproduct or product of... the fact that we have so much more access to things that are going on now and things that went on back of the day and everything in between. And he's saying, you know, I'm getting sent this and whatever. Because you're hearing a lot, you're going to hear a lot more, you know, maybe more mundane

kind of derivative type of things. Not bad, but more like, yeah, I'm a guitar player from Berkeley. I sound like Schofield. Well, yeah, you know. But also there is just more access. Everyone's, it's always to, it's always people that. are playing music that don't sound like the music that you play. That always, everybody sounds the same. It's because they're not, but like people who are in your little corner of music, you can tell those differences. You can tell the nuance.

Yeah. Right. So to me, it's like we can tell the nuance between a lot of modern, I think, piano players because we're modern piano players. Yeah. We like that whole sound, right? But someone from who was born in 1930, probably can't tell those nuances as well just because they're not into it.

It's not how they play. That's not how they think about. really stay on the cutting edge. It's kind of like, you know, with fashion, once you get old, like really old, it's like you can still be fashionable, but you've got to work harder because you've also like, well, I've got on my clothes, they've worked, and I'm not really so much worried about staying up with the trends. And I don't mean to say that like the music needs to be trendy that we're checking out.

Yeah. But to these things of being able to like understand something before it is crystallized as like a movement or as a time or a decade or something. It's similar with pop music. Yeah. It's the exact same thing. It's like we only hear all of everything. In one big trough for a long time,

it all sounds kind of the same. And then 30 years later, we're like, oh, nope, Kanye's really something special, creative, like happening, always changing. Be careful. I agree, but be careful. You know, musically, lose everything else out of it.

But, I mean, I think about that in, like, the era that I came up with, and I think you two, a little, you know, somewhat in terms of pop music, the 80s. Like, that was the time, because when I got into jazz and then a lot of the, like, jazz influence, at that time were really like pop music sucks it's derivative this is a low point for pop music

it's not like what it used to be I kind of bought into that although that was the music I came up with but then I was like well maybe that was like early 80s so but I'm sorry go ahead I mean this is a perfect example people think about that how popular 80s pop music is in the last 15 years yeah as a resurgence of a sound yeah and at the time people are like everything is derivative it sounds the same it's automated it's automated computers there's creeping in but I mean now I look back at that period, not only from a nostalgic standpoint, which is a lot of even like younger people now looking, it's like a nostalgia they didn't know, you know, a retro thing. But it was a very high quality level of, but not all of it, of course. But there was the same amount as there

was in the 70s is in the 60s. It's no different from now. There's a very high quality of level of all genres. There's creativity happening. There's people pushing boundaries. Yeah, we're just going to hear, we have more access to more stuff. So you can find an example of whatever you want and be like, oh, look at all this derivative crap. Of course. It's like, there's like, it's always been out there. It's just now you can like cherry pick it so easy or if you're just receptive to people sending you stuff. Check out this another drummer sounds just like

blah blah blah. Go look at the Billboard charts from like the 60s. There's of course like you'll find great stuff. You'll find the Beatles and Jimmy Hendrix but they'll also find a lot of terrible saccharine generic pop music on those charts as well that we don't talk about anymore because it sucked.

So we listen a little more. Over the years you know about modern jazz musicians that I think by exploring it, and having a look at the context in which jazz is made today might give us a clue to why people at least perceive that as happening okay so let's go back to the sort of a the the thelonious monk bill Evans jaco pasturius example that we just have you know in the old days you can buy an album and you put that album on and that album is coming to you through your ears you know nobody's listening with their eyes they're listening with their ears you know you put the album on and that album has a voice on it now one of the great innovations of jazz was the development the idea of the individual voice now having an individual voice is actually quite difficult in music because music is based upon composition and compositions are based upon somebody writing something that is then going to be

performed by musicians and those positions need to be predictable okay you need to know what a bass is going to sound like you need to know what a violin is going to sound like you know um if beethoven's writing a piece for orchestra and everybody in that orchestra had their own sound you know one guy's playing his violin with a saw and the next one's doing loops and delays or it just doesn't work, you know, for composition to work, there has to be some predictability in the sound. When jazz emerges, because it's an improvisatory aspect, it allows... Okay, this is a little bit problematic in that, it's this pattern. Look, I'm sure we've been guilty of this at some point, so I'm not casting aspersions anywhere,

but like whenever we talk about, say, composition, we have to frame it in the classical music, Beethoven. I love Beethoven, Beethoven the man, right? But it's like, we have to frame it like, this is what composition. And that's not really facts, as we say. Especially when you're setting up something about jazz. Right. What is the title of this? It's like,

why do modern jazz musicians all sound the same? Right. So why are we framing it? I mean, I think a lot of people can understand the influences of so-called classical music on jazz, but to the listener and to the fans, which is what this music is for, there's not that kind of a connection with this type of thing with composition. You know what I mean? Now, you could make the case that, like, the,

the standard Great American songbook, that's an influence that people hear and, you know, but that's not even always used. It's not like, that's just one element of it. So I think it's a little bit problematic when we say like something that's true in terms of like, yes, if you're writing for orchestra,

well, first of all, that's overstated. Well, that's not true. Let's let them. It's like even when you're writing stuff that's not improvised, there's a lot of interpretation that should and is available from the players. And it never sounds exactly like you think.

At least they're not robots. From the conductor. Yeah, and the players. But let's let's let them finish this. Okay. Sorry. As musicians to find their own place, Lou Armstrong is the great genius of this in terms of his trumpet playing and his voice

in the way he placed his personal voice. Now, the thing is, is that this coincides with the emergence of the recorded music industry. And so people are buying records. And when you buy a Bing Crosby album or a Frank Sinatra album or an Elefitz-Gerald album, you know, if you buy an Aretha

Franklin album or David Bowie album, what you're buying is the sound of their voice. You're not buying virtuoso singing. Virtuoso singing can sound very similar, right? What you're sounding is the grain and the tone and the timbre of the voice, the way

it's phrased, the individuality that is within that's what virtuosity is as a vocalist. Certainly in the context of pop music, jazz is what we're talking about. As an artist, for sure. Don't you think? I'm curious to I want to hear where this goes. This is the bedrock of commercial music.

If you're listening, if you're buying music to have a commodity, then you want an individual voice. Now certain people in the old days, and this was far more apparent when I was younger, there would be people who would really love the trombone or they would love the sound of the flute or they would love the sound of the tennis saxophone. And so they would want to hear tunes that they liked

played by that instrument. They liked the sound of that instrument. Jazz musicians emerged in the 20s and 30s playing tunes and people would hear the tune played by that instrumentalist. And to become a star, you had to be like a Bing Crosby or Elvis Presley had to have your own voice. So the recording music industry was driving musicians to have their own voice that could then be marketed on a record. You know, Stan Getz plays the Baccarac, you know, that type of an album. where's Montgomery plays the Beatles you know whatever it is that is a sound you're buying into a sound and that would have driven I think the music industry to find people with an individual sound

and so within the industry and when you talk to older jazz musicians this is definitely the case that to be seen to be copying somebody else's sound was seemed to be morally wrong you know it was it was that stronger thing, you know, or they copy my sound. You could see this up with, say, a musician like Alan Halsworth. Alan Halsworth has such a signature sound, you know, Alan Holesworth can play a tune, and it's going to be entirely different to Jeff Beck playing a tune or John McLaughlin playing a tune. They're all going to sound entirely different, even though it's the guitar.

And so what is the point of copying Alan Holesworth? Now, there's a million Alan Holesworth's copyers out there, a million. Okay, this is more. bullshit. I know. Sorry. I mean, it's not necessarily wrong some of the things,

a lot of what he's saying. It's a little too dogmatic for what he's good. And it's also like, so you're saying Lewis Armstrong because Miles Davis or Clark, you know, say Miles Davis copied Clark Terry and so, but Clark Terry wasn't an individual sound

because if you had been, you wouldn't copy. I mean, that's such a big part of the tradition of jazz music. And I think, you know, to list, I was come back to like listeners

and the fans. Like, I want to put them on a pedestal. Because that's what this music is for. And I'm one of them. I'm a fan. I mean, we can be two things at once. You can be a musician and a fan. But at a certain point, it's like, when I'm listening, I'm not caring about like, oh my God, this sounds so good. Wait, is he copying Lewis? Is Nicholas Payton

have some Lewis Armstrong in him? Okay, I rejected that. You're not even thinking about it. You know, like, you go to a great dinner, like when it's great. When it's not great, I do agree with him in terms of like, when you're listening to music that's regurgitating stuff and that's its only you. I understand that. Maybe he needs to clarify that a little more. I just don't. I don't.

What I think is his misstep here is his, is like taking a snapshot of someone at a certain time. Are there a million Alan Holdsworth? I'm not the biggest Alan Holdsworth guy, but I know he's amazing and he's got a very distinct sound, right? And there's a ton of clones or whatever. But are you a clone? Are you just using that sound as a springboard to get somewhere else? We mentioned McCoy Tyner. If you listen to early McCoy Tyner, he sounds like those. B-Bitpianist that came right before him. Yeah. Before he developed his whole pentatonic chordal thing.

Yeah. But he used that as a stepping stone to get to where he's going. And he goes and does... He's placing him in the lineage of the music in a way that I think really works well. When he, then when they do the ballads album or the Johnny Hartman album, he's got that same Hank Jones style voice leading that just makes it so heart melting. And then he does Love Supreme and he's got his own sound with it. It's a stepping stone to get to where you're going to go.

And that has never changed. No one is calling someone out for having influences and being of a certain lineage of musicians. And by the way, too, modern musicians still hold on to their own individuality and try to protect that. And it is still considered rude to completely rip someone off. There are stories I've heard of singers being laughed out of clubs this year for copying exactly other singers. I have, I went to school with two very, now two pretty famous pianists. I won't mention names, but you know both of these people personally. They, one, tried to fight the other, outside of smoke, for copying a sound.

Right. And now, it's funny because now everybody tries to copy that sound. So you're talking about Robert Clasper and Larry Goldberg. I'm not mentioning names. No, but it's true. But it's still very much a battlefield for that kind of stuff. So that also hasn't changed, at least in my world. And to the point of, that's reality.

That's reality. This is human emotions. Like you develop these things and you, to protect that. Right. But like even though McCoy kind of coming out of these traditions, you know, if that's Wyton Kelly, who else did you, Matt, were we thinking of his influences on McCoy before he really. Hank Jones. Hank Jones for sure. Like, um, but the same, there was a bunch of other pianists, 10, 20, 100, you never heard of, maybe a thousand that were like coming out of that too and doing really well. And maybe they, they only got to that. They didn't, not everyone's going to be a

McCoy Tyner. Thankfully, that's what makes McCoy Tyner so interesting. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, There's going to be a lot that it's still really good to be copying Hank Jones and to be there. Now, you don't want to rip somebody off, but that doesn't, I don't see that happening that much in jazz. I mean, it's like you, you, you're always trying to tell your story. Some people get to the point where, you know, technically and emotionally and just, you know, musically, all the different elements that have to come together, the perfect storm to be able to do that. But it's not going to be like that for everybody. And that's okay, you know. All right.

Should we keep listening? No, I think we've gotten the point. Well, I don't want to give him short ship. And I don't want to come and shit on it. Well, we're a fellow YouTuber. We're getting to be a long episode for us here. So we're going to call this. But please, if we are wrong, please let us know in the comments.

No, if we are right, let us know. Right. Please definitely let us know. No, no. I am interested in what people think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's a good discussion to have. But I do, I just always kind of am on the lookout from just me personally,

falling into this old guy trap of like nothing's like it should be or was. And the music is worse because it's, things have changed or whatever. I find it with just the slightest amount of effort, I find a bunch of amazing stuff. Oh, totally, totally. People who really light me up who are making great music. From the pianists, this is a golden age for pianists. It's like there's so many good musicians that are making such interesting music

that you've never heard before. It's rarely, it's really great. And let's learn from history in terms of like, try to place yourself back to a time where it's like you're hearing Thelonius Monk for the, because he brought up Thelonis Monk. And yes, now it's easy for everybody to be like, Thelonis Mung is a genius. He wrote this great music. He's an individual. You did not get these flowers. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And also, like, if we had stopped and been like, wait a second, where is this coming from? Where is this? Like, if there was too much paralysis by analysis of what he was doing when it comes out, it would have been a little bit

jar, even more jarring than it was. So I don't know. No, hey, listen, and this is also to take nothing away from the fact that there are, that social media has changed the way we ingest a lot of things. And we've done our, our OG's, uh, listen to IG thing. Yeah. Uh, which is very similar to this rant, actually, where we're like, this all sounds the same. Yeah. And it's changed. So we have our own things to deal with. And that, that has, I think, definitely changed like 30 second TikTok musicians. Yeah. I think has. But it hasn't crystallized to the point where we're going to know, is that a change for the better, for the worst, or is it going to come and go?

But it also hasn't affected the music. No. We actually spend our time listening to. Exactly. You know what I mean? So I don't know. I don't think it's quite there yet. Okay.

So thumbs up or thumbs now? Can we just give it? Well, we definitely don't agree with Andy. Andy, but thanks for passionately and articulating. Yes. And articulately stating the case because I think he's done a very good job of bringing up interesting. points. Absolutely.

And represents what a lot of people feel and believe it. And that makes it valid. Yeah. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but it makes it a valid thing. It's not just one person yelling into, you know, you know, into nothing. Yeah, super. Definitely hit a nerve. Intelligent points and really fun.

It would be great to actually talk to Andy about this. That's right. I like have a bit of a back and forth in real time. That'd be super fun. Yeah. Let's go to England. Okay. Let's do it.

Let's go to Cheshire or Manchester. Where is he at? Suffolk. York. I can't quite pin the accent. I should be able to know it. All right, till next time. You'll hear it.

Sound just like Herbie Hancock?