You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - End Of An Era For Miles

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Nefertiti is one of Mile's greatest works and his last album with the famous quintet he built. It's time we take a minute to really dive into what this album represents in the jazz timeline. Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Looking to drop a question? Want to listen to the audio pod? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Adam. What's up here? Are you excited about today's episode? Dude, I am so excited about today's episode. No, no, no. I am so excited about today's episode. It's one of the best albums ever. Now, are you still excited if I were to tell you that our friends over a Downbeat magazine,

the venerable historic Downbeat magazine upon release of this album, gave it four out of five stars. Yeah, I mean, I give their review one out of a billion stars. So. And that's not good. That's not good. It sounds like it can be good. It's not good. My, I'm at a man.

And I'm Peter Barton. You're listening to the U-Surate podcast. Music Explored. Explored brought to you by Open Studio. Peter got to Open Studio jazz.com for oh, your jazz lesson needs. Okay. Why are you telling me to go there?

I mean, I'll gladly go there. I'm just suggesting in case you had any jazz lesson needs that you go to open studio jazz.com. I think it's pretty obvious why. It's amazing. And I would direct folks, in particular, to open studio jazz.com slash pro. Oh, yeah.

Because we have some new beautiful things happening over there. It's popping off in pro right now. Yeah. There's a whole new landscape in pro. Are we allowed to even say that? I think by the time this is released, we can say it. We would have announced it. Caleb, we're going to beep this out.

We're starting seasons. Season. So fall. Seasons. The seasons that I... I guarantee Peter won't be singing in the new season. Yeah. Earth went and fire.

No, fall 2024 season. is almost upon us. It starts in October, and we're working on the blues, Peter. Yeah. All quarter. So October, November, December. We are going to be working on focused learning. Focus learning on approaches to different kinds of blues tunes, on all these great solos over the blues form. It's going to be great. We've got some new instructors that we're going to be announcing soon there. Actually, I've already started with us, live classes six days a week. That's right. We have a new schedule where we have bespoke time. That's for all time.

Are we serving all times? We are serving most time zones. Depending on what time you want to get up. All Eastern times here. 11 a.m. 1 p.m. 3 p.m. 9 p.m. We have classes. Yeah. Every day on those times.

On Zoom. Ever heard of it? All right, cool. So check that at openstitiojazz.com slash pro. But today we are talking about one of Miles Davis's greatest albums. You can make an argument that this is his greatest albums. And I wouldn't be arguing with you. I would put this up there at one or two for me.

Right, which is kind of crazy because we've never talked about this album, and we've talked about a bunch of different Miles albums. But first of all, can we talk about how you say this album? Is it Nefertiti? I think so. But I wanted you to say it first because I'm, yeah, I think that's right. Egyptian goddess Nefertiti, correct? Yeah.

Are you saying that in English or in Egyptian? I think it's the same in both. You never question it. I'm definitely saying it in a Midwestern accent, shoot. Now I have to actually look it up. Nefertiti. Is that sound right, producer, Caleb? I feel like that's right.

Yeah, that sounds good. No, not a goddess, queen of the 18th dynasty of Egypt. Right. So real person, not from the mythology or something. That's correct. Yeah. And this is, let's just look at the album cover here, if we haven't already, because this is a, this is an important record. And we'll talk about in our accoutrements section, our thoughts on this.

But this is just kind of to bring it back, because this was not a super popular album. Did you know that? I didn't know that. I mean, I've, this is been. At the time it came out. This has been such a part of my musical. identity since I was a teenager that I just can't imagine a world in which this album doesn't exist. I think this is the pinnacle for Miles' second great quintet. I think this might be, we'll talk about it

during Apex Mountain, but I mean, this could be the best of... Are you climbing the mountain already? It could be the best of Wayne. It could be the best of Ron. It could be the best of Tony. It could be the best. Herbie's another story. But I mean, this is the, I think this is the pinnacle of this band for me. No, it's great. And there's arguments to be made for a lot of other albums for sure, but I think this is, for me, the compositions, the playing, the cohesion, this is at the end of the run, they've been playing together for several years by this point, four or five years by this point, and it's just unbelievable.

You know what I love about albums like this, and as we listen to it and talk about it, we'll kind of confirm this. I'd love to hear what you think. Yeah, the cover, the music, the sound, like this seems like it sort of happened. What was this recorded? In 1967? Recorded in 67, released in 68. So, like, it has the feel of something's a brewing, right? Something's changing. We're at a pivot point in music, in the world. Oh, interesting.

You know, and a lot of times we look back and we have the historical context to be able to say that. But you can tell, like Miles is looking a little bit different in this picture, the way that it's framed, everything, the way that the, even though this is a band that he'd had for, what, four or five years at this point, many great records. But what was sort of the, what was the world looking like? What was the cultural context? Well, the cultural context around this, the number one movie was Stanley Kubrick's 2001, a space odyssey, which is also one of my favorite. Right. Films, one of the greatest films ever made, I think, whatever was in the water culturally

in the late 60s. I mean, I know this is Captain Obvious here, but special, special time for art, for music, for film. Well, I think this thing of like space and everything, think about 1968, the 1969, now we went to the moon. There was the whole Kennedy at the beginning of the decade saying, let's go to the moon. It was summer of love, 67.

67, right. Everybody's all loved up. Yeah. So they're making good stuff. My sister was literally conceived in the summer of love. So much great stuff going on. But yeah, 1968 was when this release. 2001 was the movie.

TV show is laughing. So very late 60s vibe there. You know, Rowan Martin's laughing. Wait, how do I remember that show yet I was born in 1970? Well, because it was, you know, it wasn't even on reruns. I think it's just like a cold. cultural landmark of, you know, obviously so much of its time. Yeah.

The president was Lyndon Johnson, but not for long, actually earlier in the, like the month before this album was released, he did announce that he wouldn't be running for a second term. So you're saying that Lyndon Johnson, our venerable president from the great state of Texas, the lone star state, heard this album. And within a month, he's like, I can't go on. I have to stay home and just listen to this album, LP, Stereophonic, in Austin, Texas, as opposed to be running again.

I don't know if, I don't think he hurt, well, maybe. I feel like you're making a connection there. I think he should read his speech. It's awesome, by the way, that his, it's an incredible piece of history. I encourage him to read Lyndon Johnson's sort of resignation speech or why he's not running. Well, it's kind of relevant.

Well, it's kind of relevant today with President Biden stepping down somewhat last minute. That was the last time something like that happened. That's true. That was kind of a thing. Also not related to Miles Davis or never. Well, we don't know. We don't know. We can either confirm nor do.

deny that. So released 68, recorded in 67, you got Miles, who was 41 years old. Yeah, so is he kind of at a transition into middle age here, maybe? Well, at the beginning of that? He is at a transition. To his next period, for sure. For sure. After this band, Miles starts, you know,

with the sort of like silent way, Bich's Brew kind of direction. Yep. And then he takes a break after that whole era, early 70s era. So this is the end of his kind of, I mean, this is the last time he's really going to be swinging. Right. You know, what I mean?

Yep. In this way. Tipping with these guys. So it's a transitional time for Miles who's 41, which is, by the way, an interesting personal time for a lot of people. Yeah. And you hit that 40 mark. And I don't know why.

The number doesn't matter that much, but it always kind of does. People sort of see the halfway point there. Yep. And they kind of make some big changes. Miles maybe hit that point. And like a lot of us, start making some big changes. Herbie's 27, Ron's 30. Tony's 21.

That's crazy. And Wayne is 34. Okay, think about Tony Williams at age 21 when they recorded this. It's insane. Think about what he'd already recorded and played. By the way, we lost Tony so young with how young he was. Yeah.

I mean, he should be still with us making music. It's like 95 or 96 or something. Man, it's such a tragedy that we lost him that early. Yeah. I got a chance to, no, 97. So I got a chance to meet him in 94. And I'd actually heard. him and actually I kind of met him

a couple years before that, although I was sort of, I saw him playing New Orleans in 92 with Mulgrew Miller and fantastic band, but in 94 he came to a gig when I was playing with Roy Hargrove and it was an interesting gig because there was about

11 people in the club for the first set. Wow. This was the Fairmont Hotel with Roy Hargrove. Yes. Eleven people. It was like a Tuesday through Sunday run and he came on like a Wednesday or Tuesday or something. He came with his wife and was like sitting like not at the front row but kind of in the middle like right at the at the at the place you'd think tony would sit right right at the right spot yeah and um he always he always had great instincts for being in the right spot yeah and he was just there we came over and said hello and he was so kind of the second set you know the 11 people about seven of them were leaving i think he kind of sensed that so he stayed for the second set so he was just like out of i think just out of like i don't want y'all to only have four people so you're going to have six people for this set that's nice did he sit in he did not sit in but um it was uh I didn't think it was that good.

But anyway, that was just a thing. But to think that he was 21 years old when this record was made, of course. We've, listen to many things where 21-year-olds are great. Yeah. But to think of all this stuff, My Funny Valentine's Forum, or Sorcerer. That happened before this.

Miles in Europe. Because he started with Miles when he was 17, yeah? 16. 16. I believe he was 16. Yeah. Side note, we had the great Larry Goldings in studio a couple weeks ago. And Larry came out to our,

to Caleb, I were playing Jazz St. Louis, we played The Bishes Brew Show. Yeah. And Larry came that first night, which was so nice of him. And I really wanted to invite him up to sit in because I know he loves that stuff. He was saying he loves that stuff. And I had my whirlie there. Nice.

But that's not the right kind of gay. Like, I wanted to invite him up, but like, what are you going to invite someone up on a 30-minute song? Right. Have you heard us before? It's a VAMP. Just go for it. C minor VAM. Do what Chickaria did on this. I find the inviting the celebs up to be stressful. It can be, yeah.

You know, like when you don't, it's, yeah. I know, like, do they want to? Like, Peter, anytime you come to a gig, I'm like, you're coming up, you're like, no, no, no, no. But I'm like, I got to bring you up. No, well, yeah, come on. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It feels, I don't know. What do you ask and then you do the opposite? I do. I do. I do what I'm going to do anyway. I know, because you're, I feel like you're going to say, no, no, whatever I say. Right. You know what I mean?

Yeah. You're like, no, I really don't want to say. That's what you're saying. I feel like you're trying to be polite, is what I'm saying. Right, this is weird. Okay, moving on. Oh. Sorry, it wasn't weird, so I made it weird.

No, no, it is, it is a difficult thing because you don't, you know. You don't really know. I always think about it in terms of like what, would it work good within the flow for the audience? Yeah. Like, is the audience, is there kind of a feeling that's, like probably the reason Roy didn't call him to sit in because we had six people in the audience. If he came to sit in, we'd have five people. Zero audience. You know, it's like 20% of the audience has moved up to the stage.

So I think it just depends on the flow of the set. And I never feel like it's expected. And I never want to come up and kill the vibe. That's what I'm always afraid of. Or like change the vibe, you know. You'd be like the vibe divider. The vibe divider. The vibe killer.

The vibe provider. The vibe. The vibe assassinator. Yeah, not the vibe provider. That's right. Okay. So came on 68, recording 67.

And you, okay, so you kind of alluded to this. So we had sorcerer. We had all the live, the plug nickel from just two years before this. Could also be in contention. for Best Miles album. Yeah, for sure.

Miles Smiles. Great album. So Miles Smiles and Sorcer both came out in 67. They recorded this in 67, and then this came out in 68. Yep.

So, like, all those were there. And then right before that, you had, like, the real segue was going into more original compositions. And this record is all original compositions from folks in the band.

So it really was, I mean, we think about this as much later, but it was just a couple years before, and actually it was just the year before, live that they were still doing Autumn leaves. Green Dolphins Street, all that great

repertoire for, you know, original, but more like really kind of post-pop-ish type of stuff. That's right. But the next record after this, Miles in the Sky, which I think is a great kind of underrated record. I wouldn't put that at the level of this for me. But it's definitely a tier if this is S-tier.

Exactly. But it's interesting because it's with this band, but it feels like it's already so forward, like if this is a... His foot is in Bitches Brew territory. Exactly. Fisa Kelimanjara, I think, is in between there. And I love that period. And I love Miles in the sky.

But it kind of, I guess Miles, to me, you know, felt like he needed a different person. It was time or whatever. I've heard stories about how, you know, like, you know, like, Kirby was already using material, like on here, like Riot that he's going to re-record just like a year later on Blue Note on, on, speak like a child. So, like, Ron's, you know, everybody's kind of doing different things. And there's a feeling of moving on, but this is kind of the penultimate. of this quintet.

And that's the flow for a lot of these, especially this period of bands where you have like the heavy, somewhat older musician, and then a band of younger musicians you could think about Art Blakey, even John Coltrane around this same time was dealing with a similar thing

where his quartet that he'd been playing with, he's starting to dip into things that is really not into their interest and they're doing their own things. You know, McCoy's making the real McCoy. And so this is a pattern that happens again and again. So I think the kind of bridge here might be

Wayne Shorter, who was 34 when this was recorded. So he's kind of right in between you know, Herbie and Ron. Obviously Tony's younger, but he's riding between Miles and Herbie and Ron in terms of age, maybe even a little closer feeling

to Miles. I don't know, that would have been an interesting dynamic because we always think about this quintet like they're all the same age, but I mean, Miles and Tony, Tony could be Miles of Son. You know, he's 20 years apart. That's true, yeah. And so I'm very interested in how the dynamic was with that. And there's some great stories about that. Also, artistically, Wayne is maybe at this time the most fully formed as far as his wainness.

Yes. You know, he kind of comes out of Blakey's band with his real distinct sound as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. I think even people in their early 30s don't have as confidently as he has. It's almost Miles-esque, honestly, coming out of Charlie Parker's thing. You could say the same thing about Wayne coming out of our Blakeys, that it's like he learned the craft from a master,

spending time in Blakey's band and writing, and a lot of those great compositions were Wayne's. And then now he's like, you know, started with playing with Miles and even his own projects around the mid-60s is like finally, finally honing his skills as a composer and improviser that's not trained, and it's very distinct. And it's a very personal. thing. And in fact, it's funny because

you hear a lot of young tenor saxophonists even today who go through the train phase and they'll go through the Brecker phase or whatever. And there's Wayne is harder, I think, to emulate without just being a total cop. It's almost like with

monk. Like it's as pianists, you know. Yeah, because maybe there's more well, I mean, Wayne was with us for a long time. That's right. There's more periods. Making great music all the way up to you. Yeah. And I mean, compositionally, you have like huge different periods and then just in terms of like this his blue note stuff

the stuff with Miles the art Blake as you said weather report I mean there was a diversity of types of output that he did his blue notes is amazing too his own blue note recordings are unbelievable yeah but yeah I think so to your point in terms of Wayne really coming into

his own compositionally here just looking at you know it's six tracks three on each side we go back to that kind of LP vibe do we have the back LP Caleb that would be of interest just to see I always think about how these things are kind of laid out but you have three Wayne Shorter compositions. So out of the six compositions,

that's such a cool picture of Miles. Is that like a feathered boa bed? No, do you think I could pull off the handkerchief? I've been thinking about it, rocking a handkerchief. That's not a handkerchief, sir. That's an ass guy. That's a scarf. It's a brand of...

It's an ass scarf. It's a kind of... I've been really... Picture or button this up and have a... Yeah. I don't know. I think it could work. It's coming back.

But there's six compositions on here, three of which are from Wendon. And then the placement of these, I mean, and I don't want to say these are the strongest compositions. But I mean, in a lot of ways, Nefertiti, Fall and Pinocchio, those are like some strong. I mean, everything on here is strong. Pinocchio is a friggin' banger. Yeah, of course. And fall is one of the most beautiful.

And think about how it's laid out, Nefertiti and Fall, that's one and two on the A side. And then Pinocchio is the closing track. So obviously, Miles and Teo Massaro, whoever kind of, you know, talked about this. I'm sure the other musicians were involved. Fall and Pinocchio specifically are called a lot on gigs, on sessions. It's not unusual. One, two. One, two.

Well, no, you'd have to do some prep or you're not going to call it on jam sessions. Pinocchio and B, one, two. Yeah. So, anyway, we're going to get into that when we talk about our... Do you have the first quarter of Pinocchio is? No. Well, it's on the real book. It's A flat.

Got a G-flat in the bass, buddy. Oh, that looks like a Lydian situation. I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. All right, cool. So we talked about that. Let's talk about the record.

It was recorded, as we said. It was actually recorded on four sessions at CBS 30th Street Studio, which we've mentioned before. There's a bunch of records were there. What was that in Cincinnati? Yeah, exactly. Eastside, East 30th in New York City. Ah, New York, right. It was known for many years as the church because it used to be a church.

It was like a Presbyterian church or something. And then CBS and then later what became Columbia, I believe, or maybe still there. way around. I think it was CBS first. Had actually been in there since like the 40s, I think, maybe even late 30s. But you know, we've mentioned this before, but I'm realizing like how many great records, what's the Pink Floyd?

Is it the wall? There's the wall and dark side of the moon or the two. I think it was the wall was recorded. I mean, there's some huge records recorded at 30th Street Studio, beyond just jazz. Obviously kind of blue. Monk recorded there. A bunch of stuff. I think Bob Dylan,

some of his biggest stuff. And it's easy to be like, oh, this is Miles. This is Bob Dylan. These are, it doesn't matter where they record. But I'm starting to think there's something special about this studio there. Should we go? Should we take a trip up to the studio? Is it still there? I believe it's been torn down. I know it's not a studio anymore. I don't know what's there. East 30th between second and third or first and second over on the east side.

But it's just to say that like it was a very unique place. You know what I mean? I mean, sometimes when you start to see, it's kind of like the Abbey Road in London and stuff. These studios, they matter. The engineer matters. The producer matters. The room matters. The room matters. So this is what was recorded there. Teo Massaro, longtime compatriot and producer for Columbia with Miles,

Davis, of course, and others. And yeah, I mean, this is pretty much Miles' last fully acoustic album. Miles in the sky is like partly acoustic, whatever. But like, this is really a turning point in terms of that. Let's listen to the first track. It's the title track, Nefertiti. And it is, I think, one of the greatest openings to any album ever. It is a showcase of the melody.

of Wayne Shorter's beautiful melody and of Tony Williams' insane, insane, insane drumming. I mean, really top-level, high-quality drumming. Doesn't get better. Here we go. I forgot, I'm driving. Here we go. Pregnant pause.

I mean, talk about a statement. This tune, the way they do it. Ron Carr. Nice melody. Ron Carter's going crazy already. Maybe the Oscar Peter. Orson Award? Perhaps.

Like playing time in such a beautiful way. Wayne is basically playing out of time. It's so relaxed. I mean, it's in time. Not just saying his approach. So stretched. It's like, yeah. And then Ron is partly out of time, but in time at the, at keep moments.

Now the melody is starting. And he really in his, I mean, you can hear Herbie do this even today. just splashes of color that happen on the piano. It's not Hank Jones comping. It's not Bud Powell comping. It's very like Jackson Pollock, just like harmony. It's impressionist. It's cubist.

Tony's hi-hat work? I give that a five out of five stars. I'm going to say all of his limbs are good. You are correct, sir. You know what I'm saying? That's not like, they're not right in time on that melody. I mean, parts of it they are. are.

Here we go, buddy. That snare drum, for lack of a better word, flurry, is marking something about to go down to this shit. Oh, got all that great Ron Carter improv, the beginning. And then when he started walking, now you got Tony kind of, and Herbie's been the constant. Notice, too, the melody's kind of tightening up. Yeah. And then this is basically, like, turning the normal quintet thing on its head.

So usually at the rhythm section Just tipping and the horn player's solo Now you've got the horn player is just repeating the melody And the rhythm section solo Everyone's always like there's no solos on this team There absolutely is There's three solos on this This is my favorite solo actually

Herbie Can you playing the cello there Yeah exactly And when Miles and Wayne divergicator came out I love that There's a direct line between Tony Yeah For him for sure

It's not the way they think about Like segmenting the music The freedom Yeah. We can talk about that more and first call subs because I got a hole. Okay.

Tony's drum tuning? Yeah. I'm out of that. Oh. Herbie. Also his ride symbol. Yeah. I mean, famously.

Yeah. Is this sort of like dry. Yeah. Ride. And it's so gorgeous and distinctions. When Miles and Wayne get off, I love that. Triplets from Rome.

The breath on the macro, like chorus by chorus that all the musicians are participating in is stunning. Inside the Miles had. It was so good. It was so good that you could just repeat it over and over. Can you imagine putting this on in the background in a dinner party? That's not going to go over well.

Oh, I've done it. It's a good way to get people to leave except jazz lovers. Cross talk. This is free jazz. Is it free jazz, though? I call it free jazz. I don't think it is. There's a form.

Well, that's not, I'm sorry. I have to be in a box. with my terminology. But this is free-jazz formless. This is freedom. And it's just true. This is free. Freedom.

I'm saying like, to me, this is, yeah, I know what you're saying. No, but free jazz, like, you're moving from one thing. Like, they could, they're on the verge of just, like, breaking this whole thing down. Mm. Um, I think there's reasons why they didn't. I love it. They sit out of course. I know.

It's just awesome. I have this, um, I know I'm skipping ahead, but bangers. Yeah. This is my banger solo. is Tony Williams on this whole track. I think he owns this album from this opener. Yeah. The fact that it's the first track, too.

Man, it's like so moving. And also it goes to show you the power of melody. It's a very simple melody. But melody with harmony, even though Herbie's has a lot of different approaches, I think the discomposition for sure. It's a stunningly beautiful melody. I love the end.

Yeah, it's like we're ending it now. I remember what I, that's what I'm saying. That's why I call free jazz. Like the fact that you can do anything on it. Right. Now, just because you can do anything doesn't mean you have to do anything. And a lot of people would say, oh, they're just playing the melody over and over again. How is that free?

But like how they play it, how they pull with it, how they stop, how they play it. I don't know. To me, it's weird in just such a beautiful way, like the way that it ends. I think it's great. I'm surprised more people haven't adopted this as a form. Yeah. of just, you know, writing a melody. And I'm sure this is...

Because most people can't write melodies. I mean... It's an underrated melody because it is so haunting and beautiful. And there's just enough going on, but it's still very simple. It's short. You know what I mean? And it's haunting. And so it provides this sort of like mist for the band to run around it.

Yeah, it's very misty. It's very... I mean, but it goes a lot of play. It gets bombastic. It gets like tender. And so I think that it, as strong as the melody is, is, and a lot of people can write really good melodies, but this is a beautiful and strange melody. That's hard to do.

Well, that's Wayne shorter. That's Wayne shorter. Like, the intervals, like, it's imminently or eminently singable, but it's not easy to sing. That's right. You know what I mean? It's memorable, but it's weird. And I think that, like, the harmony that's underlying it, even when Herbie's not playing the exact harmony, which is a lot of the time, it's still, like, that root and melody

relationship is a big part of the composition. So it's like, yes, you can make a beautiful melody and do it over and over again, but there's a depth, there's a width and a depth to it. There's a texture to that melody. There's this clip going around of Joni Mitchell talking about Wayne Shorter and what she likes about Wayne Shorter. And she describes their working relationship works so well because they both are painters. They both also paint.

Yeah. And she said they would talk about and she would ask him to. she would describe what she wanted to him visually as a painter. And she said he knew exactly what to do and exactly what she was talking about as far as textures and visually, how to make that translate onto the saxophone. And you can really hear that sensibility, I think,

in melodies like Nefertiti. You know, you can hear it's a line. You know, it's the shape of a line that has this depth to it that is, it's bigger than the sum of its notes. Yes. You know, it's this feeling. And the change of the core changes as well,

the core progression as well, because the root movement is the secondary melody to this. Yes, absolutely. And this, and it's all of Wayne's students. This fall, Pinocchio is, I think, a genius composition as well, especially for a burner, which are harder to make good compositions. Burners are harder.

Yeah. This is in Wayne Shorters' wheelhouse, Nefertiti fall. Yep. But to do a burner that is as melodic and strange as Pinocchio and still eminently fun to play over. Which we'll get to. We'll get to. But, like, that's the genius of Wayne Shorter, I think. Absolutely. So let's, if we can pull up my screen, Caleb, let's, I found this little clip of Wayne talking about this tune and this session.

And this is with Questlove from his podcast, I believe. Looks like they're on a Zoom call. But it's kind of cool. And I thought it would be fun just to hear the master himself talking about this. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What caused you guys to do the repetition thing with no solos? Oh yeah, well, Miles, when we started playing it, Miles was indicating with his body movement. He kept them like, again, again, again. So we go do the melody again. He kept going. And then Tony Williams started, doing like the drum thing behind him.

It don't need any solos. You don't need the solo. Because when we played it in person, later when Chip Korea was pianist, Chick would play a solo here and there on it. But it was, he said, there's nothing can match the melody. What we heard, I went to Sweden, that one. Yeah, so that's just like a little, we'll link to this whole interview because it's very cool. It's not long, it is super interesting.

but that part in particular, I thought, like, you know, what I get from that is that they may have even done this as they were playing it. You know what I mean? To a certain extent. Just start of the tune and see what happens. Yeah. But I love what he's just like, you know, Tony started. Yeah. Amazing.

Well, let's get to our number one bangers, Peter. I already mentioned that my bangor solo was Nefertiti. My banger track is the final track. It's Pinocchio. I learned this tune a long time ago. shout out to great bassist Doug Weiss who taught me this one. I shut it on this for like a month's straight once. It's just like, I think it's a composition to be this singable and to be this weird.

Yeah. What's the same thing, right? That's Wayne, huh? And how many young composers have tried for this volume? Phil, these kinds of tunes are still being written. I don't. And there's a timelessness to Wayne's compositions. Even like the earlier ones,

like kind of R. Blakey, you know, like, this is for Albert and stuff like that, where he already always, even though he was more kind of in the Bob thing there or whatever, but there was always that kind of weird element, that strong melody, and then some little weird relationships with the harmony of key places. Great. And again, the melody over and over again. Apex Mountain for Tony and Ron swinging their ass is off.

Probably. Oh. Possibly. This or plugged nickel. So I remember this, listen to this record on LP, and it's like, there's a lot of swing before this, but this last track, this is the last track. Right? Yeah, yeah. I remember I was like,

You know? Nuoise. That's what I'm saying. That's as good as a cat. This is as good as a guest. Do you think the mid-80s to late 80s, early 90s, Kent Marcellus, quintet, and quartet was influenced by this period, this record at all?

There's a link there for sure. For sure. I know. Nothing. You're under a rest. Let's play that gorgeous melody again. But the way that they're swinging on here, I always felt like the whole hour. built up today. I was like what a cool way to like structure the record.

Because in a way it's like oh this is a medium temperal swinger but it's not you know it's an intense like Wayne. That's as good as the improvise music you can get. He demands that you either like listen to it and you get pulled in or that you just totally ignore there's no in between as I talk over it. It's a really busy a. F. It's a great lesson there by the way. 21 years old for intermediate musicians. Wayne playing a repeated figure. rhythmically by the drummer

and something to hang on to like I'm gonna do this you can you can now and do this stuff the very well man Caleb we gotta add

this in trio rep man I enjoy shout out 30th Street Herbie's playing here too is unbelievable oh Tony just

all up in the mix this is fertile ground for Kenny Kirkland I can tell you that there's a Awesome. That's Pinocchio. That's my banging track.

Peter, what do you got, man? All right, so, you know, this is hard, but I have fall. And maybe we can just listen to a little bit because I think as great as Pinocchio, I mean, it's funny, is this been all Wayne tunes so far. Well, because Wayne's genius. We sue us. We love Wayne. So fall, I think only Tony can be up in the mix that much and get away with it. And, you know, there's a little bit of a corollary to,

Nefert TV, where they're very clear with the melody when they come in and keep repeating. Here they keep repeating the melody, but it's so sublimated until later on. It's like a slow burn in the other direction. Absolutely. You know. And I mean, Ron Carter plays some of the most stunning. Yep. Ron Carter makes bass work.

It's not line. I mean, there's lines, but they're just like melodies and like his intonation. Yeah. Yeah. He is one of my things that I have. underrated on this because Yeah. This might be his best plan

from this period, which is crazy. There's an argument. I mean, he's the most recorded basis in history. Yeah. But this could be the best record

he's ever made as far as like. He has a freedom level on this. I mean, sorcerer too. I mean, but this is like, but it's like, I think for everybody here,

that's what I'm saying is like, could this be the Apex Malory? Because here you have a bunch of youngish masters. Yeah. Who have been in Miles's band for four years. Yeah.

And then they're handed a collection. Oh. A collection of tunes that are maybe the best material they've had to work with. Is Ron have frets on the bass? His intonation is perfect. But you know what I mean? Like we hand these master's, these masterful tunes, specifically the Wayne Shorter tunes. Yeah.

Nothing against the Herbie and Tony tunes, because they're all great. Yeah. But these are special. We might not even listen to those at this rate. No, we will. But these three Wayne tunes are special tunes. All three of them. Yeah.

And to hear masters like Tony and Ron and Herbie deal with these is special. But like I wouldn't say Oh, this is a great solo, but like Ron Oh It's like if you had Daniel Day Lewis If he was in like Oh

Then they come in Oh If you had Daniel Day Lewis And he was he was in just like Law and Order, right? Yeah And it's fine And he's Daniel Day Lewis

He's amazing You really believe him as the prosecutor But then you give him There will be blood And it's like Everything's lined up Yeah And then it's like

Cinematographer Yeah director, supporting cast. This is a highly interactive, highly interactive album melodically. Like the solo, like

there's a seamlessness and like just a drifting in and out. Yeah, per tip, don't listen to this on the way to your gig. Because you will be in your head trying to make this. No, you'll be in your car just sitting listening while the gig starts.

But you will try to recreate this and it won't happen. Yeah. And so it's badness. Yeah. All right. Let's move on. I mean, I could just luxuriate in this. That's fall. That's Wayne Shorter's full. This reminds me like you go to the greatest restaurant and you've got like five chefs.

Like you're in the middle and they're just surrounding you like here, can we bring you this next? 100%. Here it is. And it's like it's going to be too much. But somehow it works. You're in California. Everything's in season. Yeah, totally. Okay. So. Missouri wine country and they're bringing you beautiful scuppernog. No. So PM for your solo, you have hand jive and you have miles of solo. And maybe wrong. Yeah. And this is

Herbie's tune. Is that right? This is Tony's tune, sorry. Herbie is Madness and Ryan. Yeah. The reason I... Well, we're here to get to Milder soul.

This is a very Tony too, too. Tony, underrated as a composer. Great company. Yeah. Yeah, we should turn some time with some of the Tony stuff after Miles' band. Yeah.

The 70s time, Tony's time? Oh. Again, Herbie, starting with nothing. Right. Yeah. Kind of playing. influential on Nicholas Payton. We're talking about winning, but

like Nicholas took a lot of this concept when he was young and was like connected with him. Free solo, I would say. Very free. You said free? Yeah, you, you're bristle. I don't think you understand what free means.

Dude, I'm not stuck in the free jazz definition from Wikipedia like you, man. Wicked media. He's listening to rhythm changes like, this is free. No, but there's a way to play free on top of rhythm changes. that's his out

whatever man no but playing out is just like I'm out then I'm in there has to be an end this is free man listen to how Miles is play he don't know the changes he don't care listener have you ever noticed Peter when he does an avatar

of someone is always like he stiff it up of anybody wow Wikipedia Adam I call it That's a Wikipedia Adam That's enough

Like so Miles is at a high level on this whole, in a way, well, we've been jumping the Apex Mountain. We gotta start putting the Apex Mountain area because that's all we've been talking about. Let's hit it. Let's go down. We're going to skip over-dog, over-underdog. We'll get back to Over-Ongod.

So our Apex Mountain here is, is this the Apex Mountain for Miles' second quintet? I'm gonna say yes. Yes, indeed. The only thing that I would say, can I say yes with a caveat? Please. I would say,

plug nickel. Which is weird, because it's not really an album. There's like, recorded a couple nights. It's a box set. It's a box set. Exactly. But I could see the argument for that. But not as an album. As an album, I say yes, this is Apex Mountain. As like for Herbie's playing as part of it, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about for the whole quintet. I'd say yes. I think Sorcer, you can make an argument for Sorcer. Yeah. Miles smiles. Miles, you can make an argument for. Miles Miles is a little more raw, which is fun. I think plug nickel, you can certainly make an argument for it. It's a wild, it's live, though. I mean, it's just like. But I do think, of all those, this is the one.

that is, for whatever reason, for me personally, I keep coming back to more than the others. I agree. I mean, I agree that I, I don't know if I probably over the years, Sorcerer I've listened to a little more, but that's just no particular reason. But I would say, like, if I really sat down, like someone was like, recommend one album to represent this quintet.

I think I agree. I think I would say this one. This is the perfect one. It's not necessarily like the most accessible. Nope. But it is accessible. None of it is successful. Yeah, none of it is super accessible.

I mean, you're not going to be like, plug nickel. Which one? The whole box happened. But this one's just, this is a refined record. I would say this is Apex Mountain. I wasn't even planning on saying this. I think this might be Apex Mountain for sound engineering of a miles. I can't believe I'm saying this. No, I can't. I disagree. Like he's already saying. I disagree. I don't know, man.

This, I mean, of course, kind of blue is looked at as the gold standard for that, right? I mean, there's many. Is that what you were going to say? This could be in the category, this is going to be in the conversation, but I think you would also have to include Porgy and Bess and sketches of Spain in there as well. I think you would have to put even Birth of the Cool for the Era is an incredible sounding album.

Let's take those out and say those are larger group things. So if we say small group, you know, up to a quintet or whatever, Miles. It has to be in the conversation. Right. So that would be kind of blue, but steaming working around the prestige stuff, this later Columbia stuff. There's something, it's like,

for acoustic quintet. The prestige stuff is boring, but good. Some of it's good. Not all of it. The sound, I mean. The sound is boring. It's like just like regular. If there was just regular bright light on the stage or whatever.

Yeah. But it's really well done. It's very well done. But I think this is better. I agree. And I actually think this is better than Kind of Blue, the sound. I disagree with that. I think Kind of Blue is...

I think this is Apex Mountain for Miles Davis' acoustic small group sound quality. I think it's close. But I just for whatever reason, Kind of Blue just tips it. There's something about the piano on that that I think is a little bit punchier. that I like. The bass is a little bit... Man, this bass is so... I know.

It's apples and pears at this point. And I mean, I think Kind of Blue is more... There's more sheen on it. There's more verb on it or chamber, however they did that. I don't know more, but it's the different... It's a different kind of... It's the same studio.

It's the same studio. Yeah. But the mix or the... However it was, you know... However it was done is just... I mean, like, they definitely hit on some magic for kind of... Like, I think Kind of Blue is such a desert island, smooth jazz or OG or whatever you want to call it,

like record for the masses because the sheen and the sound. I mean, of course, the playing. We've talked about that. We have. And this kind of record, maybe it could never be for the masses no matter what because of the not aggressive nature of the way they're playing, but just like this is such, like the rewards you get from this

are just like staring at it and being like, holy shit. It's like something that you see out, like a Lamborghini comes along. You could just stare at it. be like, that's dope and see it to its thing. And like, this is kind of like that, but it demands your attention. Not to say that Kind of Blue doesn't reward that, but it doesn't demand, like, you can have that floating in the background, a little bit, kind of Blue.

It's got that vibe and it's got the, and that's why I'm starting to wonder, is it the gold standard for the greatest Starz working all the time? It might be, it's up there. There's nine years difference between Kind of Blue and this, and if you think about how the culture changed here in 1968, it's just not as, like, the culture in general. now counterculture is starting to move towards the front and weird things are becoming popular. Like in things that aren't just trying to make people feel good

or feel cool or feel sexy. You're talking about drugs, aren't you? I'm talking about drugs and sex are now like coming out into the open. Yeah. And becoming really a part of teenage culture, of young people culture. And this album reflects a little bit that change of like, we're not, and also all these musicians are about to start reflecting

that change more and more of like, we're not here to just like, look cool and make you feel cool about us. We're here to express something deeper. We're here to bring out our own weirdness in not, it's not always pretty, it's not always the kind of blue sheen. Right. It's not always just feel good, toe tap and swing.

There's some other stuff happening in human beings that we're trying to reflect here. And for the first time in American popular culture, that is being celebrated. And you can see it with the popular music as well, where the Beatles here are in their psychedelic, period. You got Sergeant Pepper's coming out in 67. You got all this stuff happening. All those bands that are obviously, I mean, come on,

like Hendrix and 68, 69, all that stuff that's going on around this. It's certainly influencing the jazz musicians as well. And I think that's the difference. Right, but wouldn't you say, but I'm saying, but wouldn't you, I mean, kind of blue is a sexier record than this. That's what I'm saying, though. Oh, okay.

Intentionally. Intentionally, because you had to be. Because that's what... But this is a higher level, like, to me, human expression in a way. It is. I mean, I don't mean to say that because, well, no, I would say, like, even if you take the elements that are the same, which is only Miles between those records, right? Miles is playing to me has progressed.

Not that he was, like, it wasn't like he was at his Apex Mountain on Kind of Blue. Now, maybe, maybe Kind of Blue is Apex Mountain. But for Miles is playing to me, this might be Apex Mountain for his, playing. I have is this Miles as Apex Mountain as a player. Yeah. Because it might be. I think that Herbie and Ron Carter and Tony Williams and Wayne

shorter pushed Miles as musician more than even his previous bands might have. Yeah. And I think by the end of the run with this band, he is playing some of the greatest trumpet that you've ever heard. By the way, we don't talk a lot about Miles and his musicianship here.

Yeah. Because I think we kind of take it for granted and it's like, oh yeah. You don't about just him as a solace or playing the melodies. I'm talking about the trumpet player. I'm talking about the whole package. Okay, right. Miles as a player. Yeah.

I think we just, we chalk it up as wrote that, okay, he's one of the greatest ever, whatever. But if you just take a step back and look at this as if you were 15 again. Yeah.

It is fucking ridiculous how good this man is at music and how, how committed he is to his art, how great of a trumpet player is, how great of a band leader he is, how great of a producer is, how great of a composer he is. But maybe those areas,

is like the band leader and like putting situations together and creating incredible albums, he's almost more celebrated than as a player. Is that what you may be alluding to? Well, I'm just alluding to that on this show, we take for granted Miles. And I just want to give Miles a lot of love here. We talk about him every week. No, no, no, but we, but it's always just like, oh, of course, kind of blue. And of course, Miles is great or whatever. But just if, like, he's almost larger than life in a lot of jazz musicians. But he really, in a lot of jazz musicians eyes, I'm saying like he is unapologetically in my top three favorite musicians or artists

even in my lifetime of all time. Wow, so controversial. I think that's the vibe. It's like, oh, yeah, well, of course. So you take it for granted. I think we all kind of take Miles for granted. And we talk about the bands and we talk about the albums or whatever.

But the theme is Miles, man. He's a genius, this man. And nobody's better, I think. I agree. But on this record in particular, I think that his, and maybe this is way, this is a little bit of a different angle on this, but maybe why we don't talk about his playing sometimes.

There are times when, like this record, to me, he's playing at the, in terms of improvising his tone, his technical abilities, just as a player, he's right there with Wayne, Herb, like everybody, Ron Carter, I mean, Ron Carter may be even jumping above everybody in some ways. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, he's off the chart. I mean, everybody's playing is just incredible.

And there's other records, and I would say Kind of Blue is one of them. Some aspects of, like for solos, Miles is a little bit overshadowed by Coltrane. Disagree. By Winton Kelly, by Bill. I don't know. He's playing great, but he's not, I don't know. He's the best part about Kind of Blue. Oh, you love that record, don't you?

I assume. No, but. I don't know what I'm saying. But I'm just saying, like, there are other records where Miles is, Miles is a little less consistent just in terms of his trumpet playing. than most of these other musicians, I would say. At times. I agree. He doesn't get the sort of like fireworks love that someone like Freddie Hubbard or

Lee Morgan is going to get on the instrument, but we all know that that's not the case. But at times, like on this, he's in it. He is. I mean, obviously, I mean, when we all talk about, as artists, when we talk about getting better on the piano, we talk about like, okay, like, sing what you play. Don't overplay. You don't have to be so flashy. You can play less.

You can do less, do more with less. Miles so confidently gets his ego out of the way when he's performing music that it's just what is the perfect thing for the song in a way that takes you as an audience member into this place of like I am going somewhere that I don't know if Freddie Hubbard can do the same kind of thing. It's not the same kind of player. Yeah. You know, and so it's a real treat, man. And I just feel like I just want to just give a little shout out to Miles. And I know, again, we always copy it with, well, like, obviously, but it is like, it is, if you step back and look at it, it is amazing. Yeah. It is truly, truly a mountain of brilliant music for 50 years.

Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah. Totally agree. So, can we, to sum up our Apex Mountain segment, can we say that, I know we're talking about, like, the great and possibly Apex Mountain for this quintet? but is this Apex Mountain for Miles Davis acoustic quintet records?

That's a good question. I kind of think it is. It should be in the discussion. Because that would at least get us out of, that would, we could get out of kind of blue because that's not a quartet. Yeah, I mean, and also, Peter,

I've gotten to know more the, my funny Valentine album because it's such a favorite of yours in recent years. That is high level as well. I know. And obviously you put kind of

blue. I think you could put somebody in my principal com. I think you could put the prestige things in there just as a work. Which one? Work and steam. I mean, um, relaxing, probably. The Black Hawk live, I think the live records are a little different because a little, but there, there is something to be said for acoustic miles. For studio records, I put this, I'm going to say Apex Mile. I, I, I, I, I, for acoustic quintet record. It's either this or K-O-B, but I could be this. Well, that's sex debt. Oh, there you go. Oh, that's true. Is it, wait, can we jump back up to, oh, we still Apex? Is it Apex for Tony? Well, I would

Apex bound Is this his Is this where he's like He's 21 years old? It's hard for me to say that because of that I'm thinking he's 21 How could this be the apex? But is this the best record he made with Miles?

And if that's the case Would this be his professional? I mean, see the lifetime, some of the lifetime record Just for his playing Although I wouldn't put those records above this necessarily for me personally But maybe for his playing

He's going apexing a little more Like what's a better Tony Williams album In that for TV? Yeah. Okay, you got me. And it could be Ron Carter as well. And then we're talking about... I would say Ron before this, although that's harder because he's been on more records. We've been on thousands and thousands of records.

I mean, first take, Roberta Flack. Could that be Apex Mountain? We could sit here and name them for the rest of the show. And he crushes on all of them. There's none that his playing is better or more imaginative than this. That I can say. I would say this could be Ron Carter's Apex Mountain as far as just like, again, you're giving... We're giving... We're talking about just personal playing.

Yeah, you're giving, you know, the greatest actor alive, the greatest script. right so you're giving the greatest base player alive the greatest material to work with and he's crushing but ron carter's lines on autumn leaves and i know i know like buddy i know you know all of you i don't think this is apex for wayne shorter and i don't think this is apex for herbie hancock because they have their own careers where they make their own records that i think are more them than this yeah and i think i was going to say herbie is probably the only i even think you could make an argument for wayne outside of saying that his his whole recordings but in terms of his playing, but he's not doing as much playing on this as he does on a lot of other records.

So it'd be weird. And it's kind of same with Herbie, you know, although Herbie's great on this, but he's, like, I could name a bunch of other records of Miles is that I think he's equally as good. Yeah, this is tough. I think this is one of Herbie's best with Miles, but for me, Wayne at the PlugNichol is the best Wayne shorter with Miles that I've heard. And Herbie at PlugNichol is also very good. Also very good.

And Tony. I mean, Herbie and the whole thing on four and more on my funny. All right. We're treading water here on this. How about some over underdog, overrated, underrated. I have underrated the entire album, as you've mentioned before. We haven't really talked a lot about Nefer TV on the show, but I think it is underrated and not talked about as much as some of Miles' other.

Well, if we're going to rate it as high as we're rating, it's definitely underrated. I don't think there's a lot of people that are like, well, actually, no, let me just read this thing from how it was received a little bit. This is from the Miles Davis Illustrated book thing, Ashley Conn, and with great stuff from Ron Carter and Herbie and everything. in May 1967, the quintet recorded Sorcerer an album that when released in December featured an intense side profile

picture of Cicely Tyson. Sorser is an uneven album with Wayne Shorter contributing most of the tunes. By June 1967, Miles had the quintet back in the studio to record, first of all, that's not true. Sorcer is not an uneven. I mean, what's uneven? I mean, you might say you don't like it,

but it's not an uneven record. By June 1967, Miles had the quintet back in the studio to record an album that would be called Nefertidi. While a new Miles album now sold far less than kind of blue and sketches of Spain did at the start of the decade, Colombia continued to believe in the trumpeter, aware they were working with a major artist.

Nefertiti is considered by some to be the best album Miles cut with his youthful quintet. Shorter contributed three strong tunes in the ensemble played superbly, but its March 1968 release attracted little attention. So it is underrated as a whole album. Yeah. We talked about a little bit, but underrated on this is Ron Carter. Again, he might win the award for, he might win the theft award for stealing this album because he is just completely everything. It's like every note he plays is both fresh, like he's just thinking of it and predestined.

Like it's the best thing that could have been played. And that's, I think, for an improviser, the highest compliment is that it feels completely fresh and also feels like the perfect choice. Agreed. Yeah. I would say underrated from this record is what I mentioned earlier. The horn's playing while the rhythm section souls. That is underrated. We should do that more.

There's a lot of that on here. I'm going to write some tunes there. I just rip that off because that's so great. And then I was reminded just as we were listening also underrated ponies incredible tuning. His drums are going to get bigger and bigger from here on now. They do. But he always like maintain, which makes sense. He was a great composer.

He was a great all-around musician. could play piano, could do all these things, but he had such a great concept. I mean, it would be 21. We know a lot of great drummers outplayed with a bunch that were 20, 21,

that were already killers. I'm looking at you, Brian Blade and Greg Hutchinson in particular. Yeah. And actually both really good at tuning drums. So maybe it's not that unusual. But I'm saying like Tony, it's part and parcel with it.

That usually comes a little later with like experience and stuff. Understanding your sound. Plus, like Tony's influence on the next generation of drummers for tuning of the time. Incredible. Yeah.

And also, I was just sort of, of like maybe I even elevated it too much, but underrated, I think, to sound on this record. To me, I don't think it gets any better than this. As I said, I think the piano, everything, the only thing, my caveat on that would be, and this could be an overrated thing.

The ride symbol on the left side, the hard, hard pan, not a fan of that. Well, you know, it was kind of a new thing. Yeah. And they were... But I'm just like, why... Oh, because you're looking at the drone... Again, if you listen to...

If you listen to the White album, like the Beatles albums from the... the Sartre Peppers from this era, era, there will be like the lead vocal, hard panned on the right or left. And you're like, why would anybody ever do that? But they were just toying with this stuff

in the studios for the first time ever. I love the, I think the hard pan is what gives the drums. I mean, the drums are like all over this record. You listen with some good cans or some good speakers. I mean, he is dominating the sonic spectrum. For real. Just to me, I want to hear that.

Is that weird, though, to hear, because I'm kind of a drummer myself. I guess I'm thinking of the ride symbol being on the ride. It's just disorienting. I know you're looking at the drum set like that. I got overrated, 251s. Apparently, Peter, we don't need them.

We don't need them. We don't need any two-five. Even when they're in there on this, no one's playing them. Doesn't matter. There's no overrated, functional harmony. Don't need it. So they are playing freely, is what you're saying. Overrated, the term freely.

Okay, I got one for you. Is this overrated or underrated? Yep. Not comping for extended periods. That is underrated, my friend. We all as pianists, we, we play too damn much. We do.

Sue us. We play. But Herbie didn't on this. No, but importantly, it's not just like a, we, you play too much or you're too busy or whatever. I think what it is, is it's an extra color that we don't utilize nearly enough. Yeah. Silence is a color that you can choose to use, and Herbie is brilliant as anybody.

And like I said, his style of comping, too, again, he's not red garland where he's, you know, No. You know, where he's, like, helping to propel the tip along. He is doing colors. So it's more just like, you know, it'll be silent and then just like, yeah, exactly. And you'll feel these like. And then he's got a lot of that. These little sparkles.

Yeah, these little. You know, he's got some crazy shit happening. It is, it is again, as a visual artist, like a painter would add texture with different colors, different brush strokes. That's what he does. And the way he does it is totally free. Okay. Moving on to awards. The John Coltrane theft word, I'm going to give this to Ron Carter.

Why did you change that? I did change it after just really, after you highlighted some of those baselines, I think he does steal this album. But I mean, isn't the, I agree, I would say we're definitely going to give it to Ron Carter, Sir Ron Carter, but isn't the base,

like in this kind of an album, this kind of a band, this way of play, isn't the basest best position to be able to get this award, potentially? It doesn't mean they're going to get it, because they're already starting under the radar

in the most support, of roles in a way. That's true. They are already the Nathfiel underdog. Yeah, which is, which is cool. Yeah. What about the Oscar Peterson overplaying award? I think that could be Ron. I think it's, I like that you put not Herbie. It's definitely not Herbie on this record. I think you got to give it to Tony Williams. Yeah. I think he's, he is 21 years old and full of vigor and it comes out, but that's what you want in a 21-year-old drummer. You want that energy, you know. I mean, and again, to overplay in the style, not in the style, but in the spirit of Oscar Peterson where like there's very little, if anything, that somebody could analyze or to show

me that Tony's playing where it's like, ooh, he could ease back a little bit on that. It's just youthful exuberance. Yeah, but now a lot of drummers take some of that stuff and play it, and I've been on those gigs. Oh, yeah. And it gets in the way. Like, there's a musical lens that you have to look at this stuff. Absolutely. And Tony had it.

You know what I mean? So the better of a musician and a player and all that kind of stuff, you are technician, of course, the more you can overplay and get away with it. First call subs. Now, in piano chair, this is interesting because both Keith and Chick are about to join Miles as fan in the next couple of years. And Chick might have already subbed for Herbie around this time. He might have, yeah.

And Keith might have actually already too around this time. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Chick famously, well, I don't know if this is a, I think this is a known story. Herbie, I don't know if was Herbie or Miles Over just, I think it was Herbie. When Herbie got married and went on his honeymoon, I believe it was in Brazil, somewhere in South America. he had Chick who was kind of the next guy in New York or whatever sub for him with Miles

and apparently it went very well and then Herbie and or his wife got like food poison or something like they had to stay down there longer and Chick got to play a little bit longer but I would love to hear those gigs as Chick was trying to steal the gig perhaps that's what I would have been doing

that'd be great. Tener saxophone I think Joe Henderson would be the perfect choice for this era that he would it's amazing that anyone one you, it's a testament to Joe Henderson that you can even put him there because if there's anybody on this album that could not be sub

for, it's Wayne Shore. Well, he really couldn't be. Yeah. But I think. You could take his tunes with him when he's not there? He would, he would. Base, you know, Reggie Workman is on Wayne's some of Wayne's Blue Note stuff.

And so I think he would have been an interesting fit. But again, I think this isn't, there's nobody that's replacing the maestro on this album. I would throw in, as this is a little bit of a four. That's a great call. A little Dave Holland. Dave Holland would also be a great thing. That's so true.

Yeah. Drums obviously would be interesting with Elvin Jones. Yeah. That'd be weird though. It would be weird as hell. It would just be different. I mean, I couldn't imagine this record with Elvin. We got to throw Hutch in the mix.

Hutch could do it. As usual. Yeah. Hutch is in the mix. The last one you have, though, could be the ultimate. The ultimate sub would be Tane. Now, he was just a baby. He was not bored.

I don't think, well, maybe a couple years old, yeah. But Jeff Tane Watts would be an incredible choice to replace Tony. But again, I think. with all five of these musicians, there's really no replacing them. Jack DeJennette. Jack DeJennette, very good. Disagree, but okay.

Okay. No, no, no. I don't hear it. He would be playing with Miles in a couple of years soon. I'll tossing Clyde Stubblefield. He could grieve his ass off. Hard pass.

No? I just don't think it works. No? Okay. I love those guys, but not on this. Steve Gad? Nope. No?

Okay. I'm sure they would all crush it. Dave Weckle. He's got to chat. They all crushed. But. That would be hard. I couldn't imagine anybody, but Tony.

Okay. But I think Tane, yeah, because we got the... Trumpet. We didn't really talk about trumpet. Obviously. Freddie Hubbard? Freddie Hubbard. But it's...

I mean, Freddie, that would just... It would be Freddie Hubbard. Yeah. Freddie is so... He just takes over sound-wise, technical-wise. You know, his artistry is very specific and especially in this time, very fiery. It would be a different thing. So, side note, but our FedEx driver, does he know what kind of neighborhood this is?

because somebody could just go and take those goods off of there. Hopefully, we got to see that right there? Should we make a record? Shout us FedEx. Where is he? He's probably in our building right now. I'll grab the top shelf. You grab the middle shelf.

I mean, is this neighborhood changed that much? That's great. Look, there's the police. All right, we're good. Well, if anything happens, we're going to be filming it. Okay, so you know what I was just thinking with this first call subs thing? Because we already do this with Hutch. Anyway, what's interesting to think about a sub from the time, like Joe Henderson,

who could have actually subbed, but then a sub. sub from the future who could nail this if they were transported back in time. So I think that's when we say like Hutch, that's what we're thinking. Like he, or Tane could go. But so I'm going to say for trumpet, I think Nicholas Payton is a great call. Like because he could go in and. That would be the perfect call. Yeah, I don't mean he could go in and play.

He could go play his soul because he heard the record, but he could also just, he's got that kind of vibe. He would nail the vibe. That's a great point. And I think Winton too, you could say, but maybe not not like went in at a certain period. Maybe Winton. But Nicholas. Yeah.

would be Roy too, Roy Hargrove, but that would be like Nicholas would be, he would be the first,

would be the first call sub. It's like hindred spirit kind of thing. Any time machine and pick anybody. Yeah. I mean,

a point could be made for Ambrose. If we're going in any time. Why he's speaking quietly? I'm just saying, lack of confidence.

It's not as, it wouldn't be as a perfect fit as Nicholas Payton, you're right. Bespoke genre. Yeah, what do you got on that?

I got the new school prof, Bob. That's what we can call this. New School. Prof-Bop. So New School in that the New School University professor,

this is their b-bop. Okay. They all love this. I know. This is their b-bop? What does that mean? Peter, don't question the genre. But you've got another one, too. My other one is 60-year-old modern, because people still sound like this, and they call this kind of playing modern,

and it's 60 years old. How much time did you spend on this particular part this week? Isn't it as good? Usually really, I mean, mine's not good. I didn't spend a lot of time either. Full disclosure. I spent as much time as I usually do. You don't like 60-year-old modern?

Is it too long? It's all right. It's all right. Prop-bop. You don't like Prop-Bop. I just don't know what it is. Professor Bop. Prof-Bopp?

Yeah, it's Prof-Bop. New School Prof-Bop. Leave in the comments if you like either one of those or mine, which is not going to be any better. So we need to, Caleb, we need to start getting, like, graphics for the genres. He's back. Squirrel. What's yours? I got End of the Miles.

pentacular. Oh, because that's catchy. That's genre. End of the Miles pentacular. Yeah. Like I said, it wasn't, it's not that good either. Pentacular, the wonderful pentagram, period. Pent, Pent, 5, quintet. Anyway, let's move on. Hot takes.

Coutrements. Oh, Cuchamons. Perfect. Album cover, please. Boom. That's the back. The back is great. Miles' outfit is killing. So the light behind his hair. Like that's a high level It's not a portrait

What do you call that? It's a artistic profile. A profile. But like the symmetry We always are looking at that Like his, the light going out In the back where it just becomes

I mean, It's very pensive, obviously expressive. It's that color, that late mid-60s color kind of palette. And his hair is getting longer than it would have been a couple years ago. He's like, don't bring no acoustic piano.

You become strong with the Worley on the next record. It's coming. It's coming. Yeah, that's great. And then Miles, we don't talk about, is that his leg or his arm behind?

I believe it's his shoulder. Shoulder. His leg? No, is he squatting, Peter? No, I guess he's not that flexible. No, I mean, it's, but he has his arm, but does he have a singlet on? That's weird.

His leg? And then he has some kind of, the askout perhaps. No, but it's just, and then the, the boca in the back, I know you're a fan of that. Gorgeous. And just the entire palette of it all is. Yeah, and I mean, Miles,

I don't think I'm speaking out of Miles here to say that was known, and truly was an attractive man. Would we say that? that? I mean, the full package, this is why he was such a superstar. Yeah. He was, he was a rock star before there was rock and roll and he lived that life. But he kind of knew how to like model to the camera. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. He had a look. He didn't just show up and be like, you know, this is,

I mean, this is what I'm saying, like, we take it for granted, but how important is the entire artistic, you know, his, his milieu, like the whole thing with Miles is important. When he wears is important, you know, like, yeah, well, he was a fashion. His car is important to the music and his image. The whole thing is important. It's a great lesson that we don't just have to be practiced room nerds, that we can actually consider the same things that other genres of music consider, which is the artistic expression of our person.

Miles is a great example. Be like the Prof-Bop shop, shopperf? Okay. Hot takes. I have no hot takes for this. I just had, I mentioned it before, the ride symbol hard pan left is weird. because, like I say, just, it literally makes me think that he's playing left-handed, which I know he didn't, you know?

But I don't think the hard pan is bad. Like, I love the, as I said, the sound of this whole album. I mean, I elevated it at one point to maybe the best sounding album of all time. Yeah. That would be my one little thing. Yeah. Snobometer. I have it all the way up. It's turned all the way up, the snobometer.

This is for the snobs. This is for our nerds. So this is 10 out of 10? That is 10 out of 10 for me. Yeah, I said off the charts. I mean, 10, I always feel like, I would say nine out of ten. Okay.

Because I always feel like what's the snobiest record? It wouldn't be, just because there is a sheen to the accoutrements. It would be some kind of Cecil Taylor. There's a sheen to the sound, not a sheen,

but there's a, yeah. Yeah. Is it better or worse than kind of blue? Is it better than kind of blue? You go first. It is. Oh, wow.

I think it is. This is interesting, a little whirl reversal because I put down maybe. Interesting. Is that, I would put it at, in our old scoring system,

I would put it at an eight. Just below kind of. Blue. Oh, nine. What was the one equal to? Nine is kind of... I would say equal to. It's different. I would say it is. I would say yes, I prefer this. But you think the sound is better. I think, yeah, maybe the actual sound of the instruments on Kind of Blue. And you even said you didn't think Miles is playing on this was better than KLB. No, no, no. I didn't say that. I think this is Miles' best trumpet playing. I said he's still amazing on KOB. That's all I was doing. I was defending his trumpet playing. But I think this is his best playing because remember I told you the whole thing about how

I think these young cats are pushing him during this era. So I think this is his best trumpet playing. We're bringing something back here. What? Before we play, are we going to play the final track? We already listening to the final. Okay. We're going back and we're going.

This is three hours long, I think. Yeah, if anybody is still here, first of all, thank you. Caleb's burping over here. He's getting restless. He's peaking. He's puking based upon our, based upon us spewing out this misinformation about proff bob. If you made it all the way here.

Prof bob. And you're not subscribed. What are you doing? Like, are you, really, are we that lazy? We can't click a button. Do it. Subscribe. Like and subscribe.

I have already. Yeah, like and subscribe. Spread the love. And we're going to ask you to go, we're going to go old school. What about people that are listening, though? People that are listening. Same thing. Go to the YouTube channel and subscribe to the channel.

You'll hear it. Search for that on YouTube.com. And then, because that's where we discuss things. We can't discuss things. And do a little gala. Yeah. So Gala. What is?

Gala, stand for it. It's the gentleman and ladies agreement. Right. And what this means is we have delivered unto you an amazing episode. If there's anybody still listening right now, I think you would agree. And we do this on a weekly, a biweekly basis. We bifurcate the week with all up in your ears and in your eyes. And so all we ask in return, and we don't ask, we don't ask, we actually demand. I'm not going to lie. We are demanding because it's an agreement that you make that you, actually, I can't remember what we ask of them. You come to the YouTube and you leave comment. No, that's not what that. the gentleman knows that they subscribe.

Okay. I thought it was that you comment below. That was the gentleman and ladies' agreement. Well, please comment below if you've adhered to it. Now, that's weird that I would have been so dogmatic. Maybe it was always that you leave a comment on YouTube. We're going to ask for both. Like and subscribe to the channel and make a comment.

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