You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Feeling Way Too Stuck

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Adam and Peter discuss finding your way back to a creative mindset.Check out Rick Rubin's book right HERE Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. Whatever I say today, I want you to say the opposite. No. Good. Bad. Welcome to the podcast. Get out of my podcast.

Hi, Madam Manus. Hi, I'm Peter Martin. I'm still trying to throw you now. This is the you'll hear of nit ramp. This is the you'll hear it podcast. Music advice coming at you. Coming at you today. It's opposite day around here, Peter.

That's right. Remember that in elementary school? Cool. Of course. Everything's opposite day. That's right. Hey, teacher, you're an idiot. That's what I tried that one year.

It didn't go over. No, no. What you would do is you'd be like, I like you. And then it'd be like, oh, what? It's opposite day. Right. Like, oh, you burned me. Yeah.

Right. Hey, that was a good witty banter intro. We're back on our game. Didn't you think? No, you don't think. You got to look. Is that opposite day, though? Are you doing opposite day?

We're not doing opposite day yet because we haven't introduced it. I thought you were doing the playground thing here of opposite day. I thought that was a good. intro. Agreed, yeah. It's been months to be frank since we've had a good one. It's been a while. It's going to be back in the saddle with you. Got it back. Yeah. So good. What's happening? Well, today we're talking about, we're actually going to introduce a concept that,

and there's so many in this book. So I've been reading, and actually all of Open Studio, we've started a book club here at Open Studio. All of the employees. It's called the Open Studio Book Club. Yeah. It's imaginatively titled. We're a very creative bunch. This week on opposite, I mean, this day, on Apple's day, it's called the not Open Studio Book Club. But we've been reading Rick Rubin's new book. It's called the Open Studio Book Burning Club today. We're not going to burn any book.

We've been reading Rick Rubin's new book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. Rick Rubin, of course, legendary record producer from everybody. Creative Force. 40, 50 years or whatever. Incredible creative dude. And not a musician, not an engineer, not a producer, really. Oh, he is a producer, but nothing technical, really just kind of a guru. at getting the best out of really great artists.

Yes. And his book... Big picture guy. Yeah, big picture guy. Definitely like a mindfulness guy. Definitely a balance. For sure. A balance kind of guy.

Definitely someone who I think is a great leader in doing some really important things that leaders are usually really good at, which is getting the best out of people, right? Like having people discover parts about themselves. Get the right people in the room. Yeah. Get the best work out of them. Yeah. Long time vegan as well.

Yeah. O.G. vegan. But it's an amazing book. We recommend it to. anybody, any creative person, I think you would get a lot out of it. I mean, if you're, especially if you're into sort of the mindfulness part of things or even, you know, whatever it is that you're into as far as productivity or your practice game, I think this, you would find

some very helpful things on this. We're in touch on just a very small chapter. But a great part of it. And I just, before we get into that, particularly when I just say, the title of the book is the creative act. We highly recommend it. Well, I think not just don't be put off. or don't get put into a box as far as like this is about doing artistic things only. This is really, I think, applicable to all aspects. Many, many aspects of our lives and our endeavors, be it in business, be it in the arts, all these things. It's like how do you get a creative mindset for everything? Life is a creative act.

Exactly. Living is a creative act. How are you going to walk down the show? How are you going to do anything? You're going to dress the morning. It's so all-inclusive in terms of its creativity. 100%. And actually, that's the first point he makes in the book.

which is pretty incredible. But we're talking about here, this is a chapter that's a page and a half long, but it's something I read this morning and I thought it would just be perfect to bring into this because as soon as I read it, I realized like, oh, this is like a technique that I already do that I've, you know how like... We call that confirmation bias. Well, yeah, for sure. But it's something that I do that I've never named or really pulled out.

I think I've actually talked about it a couple of times on the podcast about sort of when you're stuck improvising, but it's also something that you can use when you're sort of in a rut with anything you're doing. Yeah. And it's, it's to consider the opposite of what you're doing. So we can put this in several different contexts. I've put it in the context before here,

Peter, of when you're improvising, sometimes we all do this, where your hands start playing just what they already know. Like you start playing things that are, are pretty prescriptive from your end. There's nothing really in the moment or creative about what you're doing.

You're kind of playing lick A into, insert lick A into this. Maybe a little too comfortable. A little too comfortable. A little too. but not a positive comfort zone. And I don't mean like you're just using language in an interesting way. You're using language, but

it's not very inspired. It's not very interesting. It's like if you're having a conversation, someone said, you're just using what? You're just talking right now, aren't you? You're not telling a story. You're not really engaged. That's probably the biggest mark of this is actually not what you're playing, but it's kind of how you're feeling, which is not very engaged,

not very in the moment, not very connected to what's happening. Whenever I feel that way, the first thing I usually do is tell myself, do the opposite. Whatever's happening here? So if I'm just like, you know, we're listening to my favorite things from McCoy, so I got that.

Now that all sounds fine, but I'm not super engaged with it. I'm kind of doing things. I'm like, I'll try this thing. That sounds great, but I'm doing things or whatever. I will think, and I'm just not engaged, the way it feels. I will think, do the opposite.

And that can mean anything. That can mean just then now doing, just taking myself out of what's being just, prescribed here. Yeah. That could mean, you know, just just starting to explore in a way that's not what I've been doing. And then once I've been doing that for a while, maybe that becomes a little bit like, uh, so do the opposite. But reading this chapter today, I was thinking about like, man, this could really work for almost any part of it, describing how it's not just doing the opposite. What you're really doing is finding a balance, right? You're like discovering this part of yourself,

the thing that's wrote that you're not connected to, that's actually a big, important part of you. And when you go to the opposite end of whatever that is, whether that's something as minuscule as the language you're playing during a solo, or even how you structure your career or your life or the decisions you make, finding, like just considering the opposite end of the spectrum helps to find some balance. Yeah, it's great. And then I think, you know, Rick Rubin brings in the analogy in terms of that balance of the seesaw.

Yeah. You know, and I love thinking about things that are very simple, obviously a seesaw, like the visual. We have the visual, but we also have, if you can remember, if you were as a kid played on a seesaw. Yeah. So important for kids to get out and play. I'm not talking about playing a seesaw video game. I'm talking about an actual see-on. It's a little dangerous, but.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, it's all right. Fall off the seesaw a little bit. But you actually learn how to feel that. And so it's like, how do you take, and by, in terms of balance, it's like if you're a seesaw, if you're, you know, for your example in terms of improvising if kind of playing by road, playing what's most comfortable zoning

out but not in a flow state kind of a way if that's the equivalent to like a fat dude sitting on one end of the seesaw, right? It's like, okay, how do you do the opposite? Well, we want to get into balance so it's not like let's get a fatter guy to sit on the other side in terms of our concept and then boom.

By the way, I love this analogy. Keep going. I'm sorry, more portly, gentlemen. Wait, that's what you considered better? I don't know. What do I say? Keep go. You know what I'm saying?

Where it's just like, ah, the ideas are. So, but it's like, how do you get that seesaw into balance? Like, it's never like, oh, we're going to measure this and do the exact opposite. It's a feeling. It's a feeling, right? And you remember that when you're like on that seesaw? That's what balance is. Balance is a feeling.

It's a physical feeling. And it's, and it's, I love these things that explain. There's a science beneath it as well. It's like where the folk room is or whatever. So because remember, sometimes you, you know, like, we can feel things that are way above our pay grade, that are above our intellectual capacity to understand. That's right. Not yet.

And maybe never, but that doesn't mean you can't become a master. Because remember how if somebody was heavier than you, you'd have to put, was it like you'd push back? You could move the seesaw. You'd have to move. At least our old school dangerous 80s seesaw. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, but I'm saying you'd have to scoot up further or back.

That's all part of that balancing. So it's the same thing when we're in a solo, when we're practicing, when we're working on improvising, when we're adjusting our mind to like how we're going to need to be able to react to the moment when you're playing with others, right? All these different variables. So if you understand those opposite actions that you would do on the seesaw to get into balance and then you can play with it. And then the art is like, how do you do without being like, bam, I made it perfect. Now I'm in balance.

It's like, no, boom, boom. You know, like how do you pull and push and pull? I mean, what we listened to in the last episode with McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones, what a balance, what a dance of opposites and back and forth and following of ideas. And a seesaw act that's so exhilarating to the listener. Well, and that doesn't, that finding the balance, that doesn't mean that you just run away from what was pulling the seesaw down in the first place.

That's right. Right? Actually, going to the opposite can help you, and Rick Rubin talks about this, even if you don't use what's on the opposite, right? Like, exploring like, okay, I'm a pianist that does this kind of improvised music. That's an identity that I have, right?

That's something that I, a story that I tell myself. If I go to make something with that identity in mind without exploring like, well, wait, what if I don't do this as a pianist who does this thing? What if I took this from, you know, maybe I pick up the guitar and I try to make this music and figure that out or whatever that is or I bring someone else in and I don't even make the music. I just help write it. Like that kind of thing, just exploring that idea, that could actually help you as a pianist who makes this sort of improvised music, right?

you can explore different parts of yourself that actually help you on that main thing. It doesn't, you don't have to always go run towards the opposite, but just considering the opposite of big picture things, little picture things. We get a lot of questions around here about like, well, how do I know when I'm done practicing this particular concept? Like, when should I move on? That's a seesaw thing. Yeah. That's like, okay, you're feel like when you feel disengaged from the material, when you, when you're not present with it, go explore the opposite in of the seesaw. Right.

Go listen to a bunch of music. If you've been practicing technique for a bunch, go listen to some Eric Dolfi. Right. You know what I mean? Go see what, if you've been listening to a bunch of Eric Dolfie, go listen to some Oscar Peterson. Listen to some Csaws.

No, but you know what I mean? Like just exploring those other ends of ourselves. But it's so important, like you mentioned about, how do you know what you're done with it? You know, to move on from a technical practice or if you're feeling disengaged. That's why it's so important to be present and to understand and part of that journey of practice though because if you're not and this is a continuum you have to constantly work on your concentration and your engagement totally because sometimes something becomes difficult

something becomes uncomfortable something seems complex because you've created a story yep because it is hard for you or someone's told you that's what you should be doing right right there's you know all these different things or all my muscles started like there's a lot of different things that can happen but then you could use the excuse of like I'm not engaged anymore I'm going to move on from this. Like that, you have to understand, you, I mean, if you're physically hurting or you can't concentrate on something, that's a reason enough to leave it and come back to it. But I think we have to understand what those feelings are, you know, like, and this is why I think

in touch with something else than your main instrument, playing another instrument, athletics, walk, I mean, there's so many different things that we can think about these, sitting on a seesaw. Life, you know, life, right, get relationships, get a feel for these different things so that when you come back to the piano, you come back to your instrument, you come back to a solo, you'll kind of be able to, you know, go through that meditative process of like, oh, okay, hold on a second. Yeah, I'm feeling discomfort. But is that because I'm disengaged or, or maybe I'll, you know, I'll embrace the discomfort a little bit because I'm actually engaged

in this technical endeavor to get better. Well, discomfort, yeah, it doesn't have to mean you're not engaged. Right. Yeah. Right. But there are false signals. It's like, how does it actually feel. I've been thinking about this with my running journey and I went into the thing of like learning about becoming a better runner, trying to become a better runner. And I've, and I've starting to learn about that, but I'm so grateful for all it's brought to my piano and music making journey and hopefully in sort of how I'm able to teach and talk about some of this stuff. But it's just like little things that are clearer with running because it's such a kind of basic sport in a way. It's like everybody can do it that has, that's able-bodied in terms of their, you know, having legs

and that kind of, like, if you can, and so there's not like the strategy, there's not a strategy until you get to the higher levels, I guess, or whatever. So we can bring back some of those elements to playing the piano. I think playing the piano, playing music, improvising these different things, there's great things that we can take to this and take to other parts of our lives too. But sometimes it's analogous, sometimes it's not. But I think about like, there's certain things about running faster that if you can base it, that you can break it down to the seesaw thing of like you can take a longer stride, but then

you're going to be probably moving a little bit slower because it's going to take you longer for that slide. Or you can keep your stride the same, but move a little faster. The cadence is a little bit quicker. So it's like all the end result you're looking for is speed. But in actuality, what you're looking for is like the journey. Like where do I get that balance between cadence and stride length that I can sustain it for the longest possible period, maybe not happily, but without collapsing?

It's like you start to get a feel for some of those things. And once I realized that, I was like, wow. Well, how do I do that within a solo? It's like because being creative versus playing by road, that's one balance that we're doing. Being able to play with our left hand versus the right, left and right are opposite, right? But we have to bring them together. Like how do we bounce those things? That's a perfect example.

So our dear friend Jeffrey Keiser, friend of the show, open studio artists. Yeah. You know, well known for being a really creative pianist, especially with how he approaches things. And he talks about this all the time about trying different things. in your improvisation practice. And so, you know, the title of this episode, Peter, is The Art of Balance, breaking the rules. One of the things you can do is identify,

okay, what are the rules I'm imposing on my running or my playing right now? Because we all are doing it. It's natural. There's nothing wrong with it. Like, there might be a rule. Okay, well, I'm taking a solo. Right hand is going to do the solo.

Right. Left hand accompanies, right hand solos. That's an arbitrary rule that you're putting on yourself because you've heard it and someone told you, but you can totally explore starting your solo with your left hand or ending your solo with your left hand. There's no rules that aren't there to be broken. And breaking those rules and exploring that other side, that's how we...

That's the art. That's the art of the balance. Is identifying the rule and then exploring with breaking some of those rules and just poking around and what's there in that little mess, you know? Such a great thing specifically, I think this concept for practicing improv. And you said, you know, I think with Kese, you said, you know, a great practicing improvise. Like, I don't think he, somebody like that is never thinking about, let me practice this and I'm a practice. it's all with the end result of becoming a better improviser. You're practicing the journey. Right.

But like to have this thing of like breaking rules and exploring that is so great for the practice part in specific because it enables you to have a better chance of continuing that mentality and that mindset when you get into actually improvising. But it also reinvigorates or can reinvigorate and kind of reignite that fire for your practice because it becomes like fun. You're exploring these things. It's not just like, oh, I got to check all these different boxes. You're still going to end up checking boxes,

but you don't necessarily know as you're going in how you're going to do it. When you start talking about balance and opposites and doing what some would say is wrong or is right, like that just really frees you up for the journey to be fun. It's also more times than not, I think, and it puts you in a position to make some really good progress also, which, as we know, is never linear anyway. So because we know it, there's no way to do it exactly like this.

You might as well have fun as you're going up and down. Don't forget, as you break the rule, that means that you also are identifying that there's a rule. Yeah. So you are learning about what you do. Yeah. Even as you try to break through that stuff, you're like, well, if I'm breaking something, what is it? What is I'm breaking? Right.

You know, and that kind of helps you to see where you are and what you're working on. And it can be such a cool thing. Like the rules then become more like, we're not suggesting throw all the rules out and just play random. But it's like the rules can become more like guard rails. Like for your practice. We talk about restrictive practice and stuff, but that can be a shifting thing. The restriction that we put on our practice, we can turn that upside down. We can do the opposite of that.

Right? It's like, okay, we're going to play with only half notes. You know, we talk about this. And they get a little more complicated with your writing. That's a little rule that you're putting on yourself, right? I'm going to do a little rule here in my practice. Right. So what would the opposite of that be?

Is to not do steady half notes. No half notes. No half notes. Okay, this is already hard for me. Yeah, but that's a rule you're, can I do it without doing any half notes? Like you're going to anticipate. So it's guardrails still, but now that's a new rule. Yeah.

No half notes. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's really, it's endless. But this is what being a person is. Right. Exploring these boundaries. And I think when people talk about like, you know, things, little aphorisms that can

seem trite and silly, there's a lot of like human yearning within that. I don't want to live my life in a box. I don't want the man to hold me down. I don't want to just do what society says. Like, this is about breaking rules. rules, right? It's not about breaking laws and being a, you know, an idiot or like just destroying society. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about like, glad you clarified that. Yeah, sorry. Wait, was anyone thinking that? A little disclaimer.

No, but I mean, you, you would think about like when people say they don't want to live life in a box. What I get out of that is like they want to have an artistic flair. They want to have a creativity to things that they do, which I think is great. Because why should we, I mean, it's easier for us as artists, artists, or as they say in France, artis, you know, to live creatively. But everybody can do that. That's like the fun of this. And sometimes we look at certain cultures or societies. And a lot of times it's a stereotype.

But we're like, you know, the Italians, they live life with such a flair, such a joie de vivre. I guess that'd be more French or anything. But it's like part of that is like, yeah, you could sit on the, on a street in a nice, in any neighborhood in Milan, having espresso. watching people walk by and a lot of them are going to be more artfully dressed with a little bit of a flare, but they kind of broke some rules and things. I mean, think about that in fashion, you know, like you break a rule, you do something opposite, you try to balance something out, you try not to balance it. Just trying is living outside of the box. Hey, listen, people said that no one would listen to a podcast

from two idiot pianists talking about their favorite music. Is anyone still listening? Probably. Hello. We don't care about those rules. We're breaking the rules. Wait, hold on. This is how we're going to do it. Okay. Wake up. See, that's the thing. If anybody's still, you know how you fall asleep and you're listening to the podcast? That's the only time you get to the end.

Well, and let's remind people here, if you're on YouTube. We've got a rule for them, don't we? We got a rule. Now, this is not a rule. This is a law. It's an agreement. It's an agreement. It's a legal doctrine.

It's a gentleman and ladies agreement. Gentleman and ladies agreement. And it's actually required. It is required. So it's a mandatory agreement. So the agreement is we make this show. Yes. Artfully.

I mean, show is in a couple of questions. So take that for what it is. It's a well-balanced, well-oiled machine. Well, and then you are dear listener, especially if you're on YouTube on the, you'll hear it, you'll YouTube channel. It doesn't matter where they are. It doesn't matter where they are. It doesn't matter. No, you're right.

That's my own. I'm putting my own rules on this. I need to break through my own rules on this. Wherever you are, you need to like, subscribe, leave a comment. Right. And actually just go to YouTube. It doesn't matter if you're not watching it. Just go to YouTube and search.

I don't even other rules. Because that's an easy place to do it. I got to learn the rules. You got to like. subscribe the channel. Yeah. And that's, that's it.

That's the agreement. Thank you for making it this far and adhering to the agreement. Well, people have been comment, I don't know if you noticed, but a lot of people have been commenting, agreement adhered to. That's right.

And we love those comments. And after we've delivered another brilliant episode, all I can say is agreement adhered to for providing it. And you'll hear it.