You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Get Off The Information Treadmill

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

In this episode, Adam and Peter talk about the long road of practicing your craft and how that incrementally sculpts your voice as an artist. Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Theme Song "Emotion In Motion"Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Ammanis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music developed, explained, explored, and much more. Music developed, explained, explored, and much more coming to you live, not live, but from Open Studio. We're alive. We're alive. We are alive. We are sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJas.com for Oh, your jazz listen. It's going to become just inaudible. Take your time on that. Okay. Yeah. Okay, one more time. For all your jazz lesson. And you know why you can take your time.

Why is that? Because we are a long-form podcast now. We are now officially a long-form podcast. That's the first time I've said that. I know. It feels good. It falls off the- It's been going this way for a minute.

Wait, let's say it's slower. We need all the time. We can do that. We got time. We do have time. Filler. You know, this is exciting. We're getting some good feedback.

It feels good when you try something. It's like when you're soloing. It's kind of like, let me go try something else. I know what I can do over this tune. Yeah. But maybe let me try something else. And if it feels good to you and you try to be objective, but you don't really know. And so you get some kind of audience response.

And then even then, it's kind of like, is this a dull audience? Or maybe they don't get it or whatever. But I think with this, we've been getting some good response. And we appreciate everybody's comments. Please comment below if you dig long form. Well, we already know that a lot of people do because we tried an experiment. And it kind of hits the two main points, I think successful points when we did our long form experiment a couple weeks ago. And by this, we just mean we don't want to make this fancier than it is.

No. It's just, there's episodes are three times as long. Yeah, no, we're just taking our time with it. We usually had kept episodes to between 15 and 25 minutes. Right. And as somebody astutely said in the comments, it was basically you rushing me along. I was just about to say something eloquent and important. Well, because you'll hear it.

Exactly. And that's on me. And that's on me. No, no, no. I did the same thing to you. Yeah. When you're doing in that sort of rhythm, you're trying to keep the topics moving along. And then we had decided a couple weeks ago.

go, well, let's just try one just to switch it up, just for our own enjoyment, which is part of this. Yeah. Let's just see if we can do one for an hour and just like talk for an hour and let it kind of go deeper and kind of let the conversation develop and an unfurl in a more natural way. And not only did we get a ton of great feedback. Thanks for all the feedback on the first long episode. But I love that conversation. Like, we've been doing these now.

We've done a couple of them. This is a couple of them we've recorded. And man, it's so much fun to just sort of. of like let ourselves off the leash a little bit and let us have these sort of long form conversation. Unfurl Adam and Peter. Yeah. And what happens is it gets closer to how we actually talk when we're just hanging like after

a gig or something, which is I think the fun of it. Yeah. And I think there's always like some important things to experiment and to like learn from and I'm always thinking about like how can we apply this to playing because we're telling stories in the podcast and we want it to be. But we also want to be respectful of people's time. Although we're just continuing on with useless drivel now. So are we respecting the time?

We never know. Thank you, everybody for the great feedback on the long form. We're going to stick to this format for as long as we feel like it. We've been doing this podcast for six years. We've done it many different ways. And right now, I think we're feeling this sort of like long time. You know, one thing that is super applicable to playing and practicing, and I think some of the things we're going to talk about today with this decision.

And I doubted you at first, and I got to give you your flowers on this, which is a new term I've been picking up from the NBA playoffs, giving one's flowers. That means paying the respect, you know. But like you said, let's do an hour, minimum hour episode. And I was like, oh, yeah, we can go longer. You were like, no, no, no, let's shoot for at least an hour. You were very specific about that.

And I thought that was weird. I'm like, it's going to be forced or whatever. But like a lot of things, you know, in order to have more freedom with something sometimes, you have to put up some guardrails, actually, especially as you're practicing or experimenting. And we're always thinking about, like, how do we practice? in a way so that when we're improvising, we can actually be totally free. You actually have to do the opposite of that

when you're practicing in order to develop the skills that will get you to that place. And I think this was a good example of that. Sometimes it's just like one guardrail, right? Like you have all the freedom in the world, except for this one thing. Right. And that can be the thing that really holds it all together.

Right. But let's get to what we're here for today. So on that episode, on that first long form episode, which is called what is happy practicing or how to happy practice, something like that. It was all about happy practicing. And we were talking about practice. We were talking about practice.

And we got into your practice routine, which I've heard so many comments from like Open Studio Pro folks, especially that heard that episode, have been talking about how slowly you practice your scales. We've been practicing now for two weeks that slow, and it's like, it's so much fun. And I'm getting real results of my own playing. So thank you for that.

But we had a comment, Caleb, could you put up this comment? Towards the end of the episode, we mentioned that you can, Can't information your way to becoming a better player. And here, Tribal Genes says, you can't information your way. He says 5150, which is the timestamp. You can't information your way to being a better player.

Brilliant. Can anyone elaborate on that? So tribal genes, yes, we will elaborate on that right now. And fun fact, tribal genes is the YouTube screen name of a friend of ours that is very popular in the Pottlesphere and jazz world. Really? That you may not know. Yeah, Mr. Bob DeBoo.

No. Yeah. No, it's not. Oh, Bob's sitting right over here, though. That was a joke. I'm trying to be humorous. We got more time. We can do such things.

Okay, maybe let's go back to 15 minutes, Cam, next week. Cool. Yeah, so this is something that we've talked about. I forget how we stumbled upon this idea. I think you and I were talking about it, maybe with some members. Yeah. You came up with this term in this phrase, and it's great. Well, it definitely evolved over time, which is, I think, a lot of times,

cool concepts that can drive our playing or practice or whatever. they're not like oh all of a sudden sometimes they are you wake up and have this great idea but it's more like this was an iterative concept and i remember we did talk about it and then at a certain point you were like yeah you can't information you i was like wait that's what it is that's what we're talking about so what we what we found you know it's been really amazing having open studio for as long as we've had it now and watching people come in and it's like watching people you know in all different points of the path in their music development in their musical development and their journey to play music And we get to see this happen in real time.

And what we've seen, and I've experienced, I don't know, a thousand times is a new member will come in and they have it in their head that they just don't have the right information. Right. Right. That they need the right scales and the right chord changes, even like the right, the perfect practice routine. If I just had this missing piece, then it would all come together. And when we say you can't information in your way to becoming a better player, we don't mean that information isn't part of that. Information is, of course, part of it. But it's just the content that's being held by what we're actually working on. What we're actually working on is our artistry. What we're actually working on is our personality. It's who we are and how to express it to the world. And so that's being contained in the content that we choose. That could be bluegrass banjo. That could be watercolor painting. That could be running track. But all of the All of these are expressions of our humanity and of our connection with each other and everything else around us, right?

You know, just to throw in there, a good way to think about this, since you threw some other things besides, like, you know, things that wouldn't be considered artistic, you know, like running track or whatever, cooking, whatever. But that's when people say the art of something or like, let's be artistic about it, like, that's the beauty of it. Like, what is the art of, like, the stickers on this computer? These are not great. But there's an art to that.

And it's kind of like, how do you think? about that and not take it for granted in something like jazz piano or just jazz, or music, which is so intrinsically artistic. But we still have to make an art of it. And when you go just straight information, just the facts, man, give me the ones and zeros, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And again, that doesn't mean that information isn't important.

And that's because that's part of your taste as you develop is like, is is cultivating information, weeding out information that's not serving you or that you don't like? and growing that garden of information that you have. But that is not the gardener. The garden is not the gardener. Your gardening skills are not your garden. The gardener, not the plumbing. That's gotcha.

Exactly. But it is like, so the things that you're growing in your garden, that's not your gardening skills. Right. That's not becoming a great gardener. That's the results of becoming a great gardener, right? That's the content of the great gardener. But becoming a great gardener is a process.

It's not a thing. It's not something you can read about. Well, the process you can read about, but the thing itself, you can't just obtain. My wife has some books about gardening, my friend. But you can't information your way to being a great gardener. You actually have to garden a lot. Well, and I think that this is a great example, too, because gardening, it's like, let's say you just get all the information, right?

So this is the kind of seeds for this type of soil. You've tested it. This is the microclimate that this will be successful. So you get all that, and then you go and do that. Yes, you need that. up to a point. But then it's like the gardener is how do you respond? Like then you're looking to see what what's what's the art of it. Like what's actually happening now? It's performative. It's you have to perform the gardening. And it's like the same for us with listening as we're

practicing as the gardener instead of being like, oh, I did it all. I can go do something else and it's just going to come up. One of the examples I love to use when we're talking about this, especially when I see like I say this and people get this skeptical look on their face. I'll usually say if we're in a big group Zoom or whatever, I'll say, okay, how many people here have Mark Levine's jazz piano book. Yeah. And like, invariably, three quarters of a class will raise their hand. Right.

You know, 35 out of 50 people will raise their hand. And you read it cover to cover. Yes, I've had it for 25 years. Yes. How many of you are world-class jazz positions? Like, if you could execute everything in that book, you would be amazing, right? Like, just having the, like, you understand all of those concepts. Why aren't you a better player?

Right, why aren't you a great player? You come hard in the first lesson. I like that. I think this is mostly to me as well. I know more than so many great players informationally. That doesn't make me a better player than them. It also can be proven when you see a kid. When you see a kid who does not have as much experience,

doesn't know the same amount of tunes or voicings or any of the language you know. And yet, why is it when they play just a simple pentatonic scale? They sound incredible. Why do they have this thing? usually it's because they have some kind of talent for connecting to the music and other people and other and everything else around them in a way that some of us can be blocked by. And that is part of like the work too. I think a big part of this is working on yourself as a person to get your confidence to a place that you can put yourself out there to not play things that are just designed to please other people, to not play things you think others are going to like, play truly what you want to be playing. That also is part of it. Developing your taste is part of it,

which is that's collecting information, but the skill of developing your taste is deeper than that. It's almost spiritual because you have to be. It's the art of listening as opposed to the science of like, I'm checking a box. There's so much vulnerability. And having a point of view is very difficult and takes a lot of cultivation.

For some people, I think it's effortless. Those are the kids who are, those are the Nicholas Patens, who just kind of come out of the box with a very strong point of view and a knowledge of like how to connect convey basic things. And then you talk about stacking habits,

someone like Nicholas Payton is also brilliant and can, like, from the time they're a teenager, just collect all this information added to what's already this like mix of performance and brilliance. And already kind of have a high level of discernment that most people get with experience in age. That's right. It's not afraid to tell you what he doesn't like.

It's not afraid to tell you what he likes. Those things for some people are very hard. Yeah, for sure. It's hard to do. For sure. And a lot of times, folks, think, well, you only get that from experience or from being old, from age. Like, there's a difference between experience and age. And I think experience is something that can be accelerated,

not to the point of like, I can, I can tell you a way to get a lifetime worth of musical experience in the next hour. No. But there's people that get more discernment and confidence and understanding and nuance of the art of jazz piano playing by the time they're 22 years old. That's right. And then there's somebody else that's maybe 60 something and wants to be connected with the music, but is really at an infant level in terms of their discernment and connection and experience level with the music, even if they've been around it. And that's okay. Yeah.

Because, like, what a fun thing. And I mean, for me, like kind of in middle age and I don't know if you know this, I'm fastly approaching middle age. No. Yes. You don't look at day over 55. Well, I'm a day younger. But the idea of like, that's the fun thing about getting old.

is like there's if you if you keep yourself um whoa and I don't mean in the way that they're throwing this around politically I mean awake like the true genesis of the world weekend like if you're not stuck in the matrix and you've given up and just like I want to sit back and be entertained and wait for my social security check if you want to engage with the world and try to become connected with the art of something the art of gardening the art of jazz movement of life The art of life, the art of like going for a walk and singing to yours, whatever it is, that becoming an infant as an adult, especially when you're older, is one of the funest things. Yeah, man.

Being an infant, being your infancy of something, that's the, it doesn't get any better than that. I've been reading a lot of this Catholic mystic Father Richard Rohr, who I think he's in like Santa Fe or somewhere in New Mexico or whatever. But he's like, he's basically like, you know, he's a Catholic priest, but with like a almost a Buddhist sway to the thing, right? the very like, uh, Eastern philosophical tones in his, uh, in his,

in his Catholicism, which I'm just a sucker for right. Right, right. It's so great. Uh, but, uh,

he talks about that. He talks about, and the Buddha talked about that, too, about sort of like, there's the first, uh, the first stage of life and the second stage of life.

And they're not chronological. Mm. It's not an age thing. Right. It's kind of the first stages where you're developing the, you know, your ego, right,

the eye, the sense of self that is to be destroyed by the second phase when you're ready to let go of all of the things that you've gathered to like arm yourself against people bringing you down and what you think your status is and things. And there are some people who get to that second stage when they're 10 years old. Yeah. And there's some people who never get there, you know, who are constantly disturbed by other goings on in the universe around them until they're 90 years old. And they can't, they don't have any space from any of it, right?

Yeah. And there's nothing, this is not a moral judgment on any of that. This is how humans. It's how humans are. It's how we are. And so I think once you understand that the information, once you kind of free yourself from like, I'm not going to get there by collecting information and you start working on that second stage, right? You start saying like, okay, I have to not care as much about sounding good. Like, I want, like, that's the goal, of course, is to sound good. But if I'm trying to play like I want to sound good, I'm going to sound bad. You know what I mean? That's not going to get me there. I have to be able to take risks. I have to be free. I have to be willing to sound bad and be okay with myself. And the good news is, is that means,

you know, you don't need a scale for that. The bad news is, is that takes a lot of personal work, I think, to get there. I think it's worth the effort. And I think you'll never quite get as free as you'll hear a talented, you know, young person that kind of already has achieved this naturally in many cases. Yeah. But you got to do that work. Absolutely. Well, and I think I want to just jump back a little bit since we have the time to be able to do that, which is really fun for me when you were talking about the Mark Levine book. I think that's such a great example and such a touchpoint specifically for jazz pianists, because is there any book that is more ubiquitous but also like debated and question? Like, I think I've gotten more questions over the years is what do you think about the Mark Levine book? Do you recommend the Mark Levine? Do you think it's good? There are two Mark Levine books, by the way. There's the jazz. piano book and the jazz theory book. Okay. Yeah, I think the piano book came first, but then he wrote the jazz theory book kind of for

all instrumentals. And full disclosure, I'm not going to call down to South Louisiana because I think it's a holiday down there today. So I'm going out on a limb without legal advice. But I haven't engaged with those books much. Debosier and Debossier and Debossier. I haven't engaged with those books enough to make any kind of editorial judgment on that. And that's not what the discussion today is about.

but just the idea of it being something that's often either held on to or, like, asked about or is kind of aspired to like, is that the information that I need to get to the next level? I think that that's where we mostly encounter it. Like, do I need this information? And I think that it's the kind of thing like where it's hard for me to like say, like, it can be the greatest thing or it could be the worst thing. So there's nothing wrong with it. It's just the information.

It's just the information. And it's good information. That I do know. There's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it. Not anything wrong. There's nothing, but it's like how do you use it? It's kind of like this other question that came out of some of our longer form discussion

recently about whether or not you should transcribe or not. And one of the commenters, you know, in a really thoughtful way, I think was kind of questioning us talking about transcribing. And really, I wanted to clarify that we often say transcriber, we usually mean learn a solo. We don't necessarily. We're already screwing up the- We're not talking about writing out. Yeah, yeah, we're already screwing up the information with that.

But then it got to be a little bit of a debate of like, well, some, players didn't transcribe and some did. And like that's a good, another good example of like kind of arguing about the information. It's not about the transcribing. It's not about the Mark Levine book. You can do it. You got to do something. You got to do something. Peter Martin, 2024. And that's, but that's a great point. That's just like the real work is developing the life where you're doing something. Yeah, because any of these, none of these things are going to make you worse unless you practice them in a bad way. Yeah. In that case, all of them can make you worse. And none of them are going to be the silver bullet because they're just information, but any of them can be in a thoughtful way.

Like, if you're willing to embrace the art of a Sunny Rollins solo, you're telling me you're going to learn a course of Sunny Rollins solo and not treat it like just information, bits of data that your input and then you're going to regurgitate or puk out, but that you're going to engage with that as in an artful and thoughtful and spiritual way as you can, that it invites you to without being an advanced player, just if you can get through it, then you're going to tell me that's not going to help you. I mean, at a minimum, I think it's going to be a fun and joyous thing. It's definitely going to help your ears.

It's not going to turn you into Sunny Rollins, but that's not the point. No. You're not going to become Sunny Rollins anyway. And the world doesn't need that. We already got Sunny Rollins. So if information isn't the way, just what is the alternative, right? I think what happens, what can be the issue is that people can kind of get stuck in this cycle of like, well, I just don't have the right information. I'm just not doing this right.

And so then you're kind of missing some of the forest through the trees, which is you probably have enough information. now to be a really great player. And that's like both, I think for people can be both like kind of inspiring. Yeah. And a little bit scary because like, well, why am I not a great player? Well, like, let's break it down. How much time did you spend with the information you have? Like there are some fundamental things you'll hear like we just had Emmett Cohen in here

a couple of months ago recording his course. And I'm always struck when I see like these really high level musicians. We had Aaron Parks here too doing similar things, just solo piano stuff. simple things that I know how to do in a way that is so beautiful and solid and like they're little dynamic feel touch rhythmic things happening in just playing Stella by Starlight solo piano that is not just like an art tatum you know incredible like blah blah blah blah kind of thing but is just the simple thing that is all fundamental space it's all just work getting familiar with the voicings you want to play, getting familiar with the sort of color palettes of what you're learning,

getting familiar with the tunes, like really knowing it and getting familiar with things like all 12 keys, which people are, you know, even though we talk about it all the time, they still put off. They still don't want to do it. That is hard. It's hard. Bob DeBoo, who's sitting right over here on the side of the camera. Is he sitting or is he lurking? I can't tell. He has a whole, he's medicine. I can feel him. He has a whole rhythmic class talking about, you know, different ways to work with the metronome that are not sexy. Right. These are not. like, sorry Bob. Bob is sexy as he's demonstrating.

But the actual information. But the actual information, like working on just basic time, grinding time, like your sense of time and your pulse and your feel is not as sexy as like cush chords, you know, or like moo chords, right? But it is the thing that will make you sound better. Now, the cush chords, everything, those things are like, you know, I love that stuff. It's great. But it's not going to sound good unless you have some basic fundamentals down.

You got to get your basic technique together. You've got to get your basic time together, your rhythmic feel together, get some kind of repertoire together. Again, the information is not as important as how you do this stuff. Right. It's like if you look out and like a couple walks by an older couple and there, this doesn't happen a lot here. Okay, picture it. Picture it. But like if you're in Italy, this happens all the time.

I was going to say, an older couple walks by this is just super fashionable. Totally. Right. So like you can just tell they've got style. Like, they're not necessarily models or anything. They're just older and Italian. They're just older. And it could happen.

You see it in New York and you see it occasionally. Just somebody that understands the art. Like, they're not professional. They're not endorsed or whatever. They're not models. But they understand the art of fashion, right? Unlike me. So don't look at me.

Imagine out there, okay? But the idea is that like the difference between the information, like somebody might come up to him and be like, oh, what brand jacket is that, sir? Oh, ma'am. What is the person? that you have. Like, they're going to be, if they know what they're, like, they might tell you what that is, but the information you're waiting of being a better player is the one that focuses on that,

I got to go get a Ralph Lauren jacket. When it's actually like, how is he playing it with the shoes? Totally. How is he, how is it draping on it? Like, will that work for you? Yeah. His shoulders are back. Like, the whole thing.

And he may be like a big guy that's not fit or whatever. It doesn't make a difference. But the idea of like you think that that information that you're going to get from him, and it's valid. And that is information. 100%. It's going to work for you. that's where that discernment and also just like adapting and like it should be more like

the question i think would be more valuable would be like where did you get your sense of style like what's your inspiration for style as opposed to like you know are you going with a shorter hem this season or not you know that that's so individual and then if you but if you get that it's the inspiration and then he might say well you know i'll cut out little things that i like and then i'll put them up and then i'll then i'll look online you know whatever that is that's the equivalent of like Bob is giving information in that rhythm class for you to practice, but it's up to you to figure out the art of the practice of that. It's not just the,

he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before, but he's putting it together in a way that you can use to turn into the art of rhythmic practice. And listen, for a lot of human beings, it's perfectly natural to want to put things into categories and, like, you know, the math is what's attractive to a lot of people with this. Yeah. Well, if I can get the information, then I can do it.

Right. I know I can get information. There's the logic to like if one plus one plus one equals Oscar Peterson. If Versace's sunglasses, plus tight jeans, plus... I tried all that. Friendly scarf, no. You can spend some money, though.

But it's not just that, right? So an uncomfortable fact for a lot of people is like a lot of the stuff that makes people sound great, your favorite players, is not quantifiable. It is something in between the cracks. And it's not something you can just go out

and read about or someone can tell you about. It actually takes experience and living a consistent musical life. And kind of, again, letting go of what you're playing and instead focusing on how you're playing. These are things I'm talking about like feel and sound, right? I mean, of course, there are tangible things you can work on with sound and with feel, but it is a lot more ambiguous and not taught, not as easily taught as say harmony,

which is like the most easily taught thing because it's literally like there's 12 notes and here's all the things we can do with them, right? Like harmony is so easy. It's a math equation. Right. But like things like a rhythmic feel is not as clear, cut. Yeah.

Because if you, as soon as you start breaking it down, all the magic of it goes out. I know. You have to just listen and listen. You have to actually feel this. And you have to have taste in it. You have to like find the way you feel. And you have to like have confidence to be able to like pull off a lot of these rhythmic things.

And you have to have like the grit to know how to like work on it so that it becomes part of your practice routine. And that again is not so much about like, well, if I just do this for six months and then I mean, it can be. Right. But like more about designing your life. life in a musical way than it is about this idea of like if i just regiment everything perfectly then i'll get there it's it's a it's a lot deeper a like i said even more spiritual i think than that it's about

your being in the world and how you design your life yeah it is how you design a practice routine or a solo or anything like that yeah absolutely and i think this is a good uh little juncture a little segue here for us to acknowledge that we uh are extreme hypocrites we with what we're talking about today, because I just realized, okay. Well, not hypocrites,

but we- that one hurt. I'm not going to lie, that hurt. I said, we, hurt a little bit. Okay.

Yeah, you said you brought me into it. I just want to clarify because we're saying, you can't information, you can't information your way to being a better player. But we're,

I think, are giving some information today that will make people a better player. I have an answer for this. Okay, good. And it's, I could see where you would think it's hypocritical. Have you checked with the DeBosiers.

I have DeBosia's, and they are texting me now. we're all good. Okay. So, no, so this is something we've also discovered. So as we were kind of talking about this years ago, about like, man, people who are coming to Open Studio, they're craving this information. And when they get here and they get all the information, it's not enough.

Yeah. Right? It's not changing their playing in the way that they want to. And so then we said, well, we got to give them the experience of, you know, actually becoming a better player by doing these things, which is what kind of Open Studio Pro and the community aspect has has really blossomed out of that idea. But if like when we experimented with like really cutting out all information or or steering people away, it's kind of like one of those things like you can't tell people that information is not going to do it.

And we don't talk about, you know, you can't information your way to become a better player. And we don't outlaw a lot. Open Studio. Well, no. But you actually kind of have to experience this for yourself. It's like it's like it's very much like meditation. Like meditation is kind of this practice of trying to do something again and again until you finally realize

you can't do it. Yeah. But you can't just think like I can't do this. You have to actually experience yourself trying this and realizing like, okay, thoughts aren't stopping. Like it's not going to stop. But that itself is an important piece of information. Well, you know what I'm saying? But it's an experience. And with that experience, you're able to let go and not be concerned about the thoughts coming.

And then you let the thoughts come and go. And then you're able to get a lot of space from that, right? That's just one very small part of the whole thing. But I think it's a very similar thing with the information of music, right? Which is like, you can't just tell someone, you know, it's more about how you play than what you play. You have to have to bump your head up against the wall and be like, okay, well, I can, I have giant steps and I know all these scales. But it doesn't sound right. I'm putting, I'm putting pieces of information together.

And it's not add, it's not, does not compute. Right. So people actually have to, like, that's why we still do a lot of information here at Open Studio. First of all, it's fun to collect information. It's a big part of becoming a better player. Like we said, it's not, it's not bad information. Right. It's just not the only story.

In fact, it's not the most important thing. So you have to come in hungry for information, and then you have to ironically kind of, like, exhaust yourself on it and be like, okay, I have to let go of this information. So it's almost like this whole podcast we're doing now is going to fall in a lot of deaf years. Or maybe it'll resonate a little bit and then continue to resonate down the road when someone...

We'll see, but like, the thing is is you kind of do have to experience the... And maybe this will light some people's eyes up with like, oh, that's what I am experiencing right now. And realize, like, you have to work on how you play things and how you live and how honest you are

and how brave you are with your art before you work on collecting another scale, collecting another voicing. You know what I mean? You have to actually experience it's playing music again and again and again and again. But I think it's a very exciting thing. It's potentially very, it's reinvigorating to me to think about this and talk about

this and exciting. I think it can be for a lot of our listeners in that, like with the meditation, once you realize that the whole point of meditation is that you're never going to be able to actually fully concentrate and meditate on something, that's a very freeing thing. That's the point of it. Exactly. That forces you into the process, right? into luxuriating in the process as the goal as opposed to like getting to nirvana or getting to a totally blank mind or whatever

it like that forces you to find some other joy along along the way and i think this kind of thinking with practice that's what we this is coming out of happy practicing like letting go of trying to information your way say we're not saying let go of the information first of all it's very freeing to know that the information you already have like like the most fundamental things like what you're talking about earlier for piano technique and Emmett and Aaron and all the great players have that, of course, at different levels, you know, just like I can dribble a basketball without, you know, double dribbling maybe. It's a little different than Steph Curry dribbling the basketball. It's like, you know, taking it to the artistic level, we both got the same ball or whatever. So there's this continuum

that you can, like, you can jump on that Ferris wheel of going around and then maybe even realize, wait a second, I'm already on that Ferris wheel. This is kind of cool. So even though you're being freed up from the information. The information you already have, you're not going to lose that. In fact, it's going to go into your subconscious where it needs to go. That's right. So that you can get closer to the art, not overnight, but it can start today in your practice. It absolutely can start today. And I was just thinking of like another way, and this should pass muster with our attorneys as well, for us to weasel out of being hypocrites on this. I had a great teacher for a short time who really was the one Leonidas, Leonidas Lipovetsky. Sounds like a serious piano teacher

He was fantastic He was from Uruguay Uruguay Uruguay Uruguay Uruguay Uruguay Oh you're gonna go next level

I mean Gotcha you can't information your way to speak in Spanish buddy He actually can't But he's the one who introduced me

to the Phillips exercises Yeah Which And like the idea with this though is that And I mean to this day I practice them I don't practice them

every day But I do come back to them a lot I only use the first two pages of that. I know. I've been through a lot of it, but like, like, 90% of the benefit I realized was there. So it's like less information, but more progress. 100%. And it doesn't mean you couldn't go through the whole thing and do a lot of great things, but it just sort of proves the same thing like with transcribing. You know, it's multiple choice answer. Which is the best way to become a jazz musician? Transcribing or not transcribing. See, either. Either or neither. And by the way,

it's how you do it. You can transcribe one solo and be a great jazz musician. You can transcribe no solos and be a great jazz musician. You can transcribe a hundred solos and be a great jazz position. But you can also, I think it's important like to think about some of these things like, you know, you can also back yourself in a corner because you can be like going through the multiple choice and like, nope, not going to do that. Nope, not going to, nope,

not going to learn the correct scale. And you can still become a great player, but you're really backing yourself in a corner, buddy. So how would we focus on the how, Peter? Let's like, could you think about how you would, like, my ultimate in my mind story and this may be a myth. This may not be true. In fact, if anybody else has heard this story, let me know. Wayne Shorter, apparently, practiced in a practice room, was witnessed practicing. I don't know where

Wayne Shorter would be in a practice, but he was witness practicing like a half step for six hours or something. I've heard six, I've heard 12, I've heard, you know, all day. But he practiced one half step for like six hours, right? And this to me is like an extreme. John Witton practiced it for a while. listen if it's post-1975 that had to have come into the picture exactly but but to me this is an extreme example of practicing the how not the what yeah right so wayne is taking the what out of the equation yeah like speaking of like guardrails like there's here's a guardrail it's two notes it's like the amoeba level like the single cell level of interval right like what's the

most basic but but again back to the meditation analogy that's what like when you sit and you close your eyes and you say, I'm just going to concentrate on my breath. That's what you're doing. You're taking all other stimuli out of the equation. Yeah. And you're saying, can I just focus on this one thing? And that's the how, not the what, right? Because we have the what all day, every day. In fact, we have like all of the what in human history in our pocket all day every day. And that's not helping much with the situation. But focusing on my meditative practice. Yeah. Focusing on the how, meaning just like taking away all other, you know, really putting on heavy guard rails, taking way all other options can be freeing. So I wonder, Peter, if you could think of in your practice

routine, like, what are the things you do that are between the cracks, that aren't easily, you know, data points that are the things that are the sound, the feel, the, like, are you thinking about that? Are you just living your life in this way? Because you've been doing this now for so long, that is there anything that we can, like, take away from your practice routine from the how and not the what? Yeah. I'll, yeah, I'll try to answer this. and I want you to answer it too. Sorry to interrupt. So sorry to interrupt.

No, you're allowed to, apparently. For example. Me, not so much. For example, a couple weeks ago we were talking about the scales. Yeah. Like the how was your... Sorry.

I practiced on a silent keyboard. Actually, this is not a bad thing to do is practicing on a silent keyboard. I bumped it again. The how would be like you were talking about how slow you practiced, right? Right. Practice super slow.

Yeah, yeah. I wonder is there any more like that? So Peter, for instance, like when you were doing the slow scales, right? That's the how. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just for scales. That would be for anything. Like, I'll do, you know, I've shown this before, I think.

That first Bach invention, like of all the, not that I learned that much, but I learned some different Bach and Beethoven or whatever, that's the thing I come back to, like, just if I want to, like, center myself. The how of like, what's the, I mean, Wayne Short is just so much better because he went even more basic, a half step, you know? But it's like what is a basic something that I'll be totally exposed but forced in, I think, a happy way to be connected with the instrument, to be connected with the music, get my ears right, you know what I mean? Get my fingers like being in service to the music. Because like we always talk about being in service, the music, that's true. But like true piano technique or technique of doing anything is like getting the physical things in service.

It's not just a matter of like, yes, I'm in service to the music. And then you sit down the piano and you can't do shit. You know, you got to, like, we got to, you know, there is a science to it to serve the art of it, you know. So I definitely look for those just very basic things and they're, they're not sexy, they're boring and they're slow. I might, if I'm going to do like a jazz thing to practice improvising, which I don't do a lot. Yeah, you said that. But I'll play. It would be something like a.

See, this is the Emmett Aaron Parks thing, too. Some basic thing. No, no, no, but it's a very similar thing. And then I'll just concentrate on each line, not making the great. a solo but on doing something, like just half notes there, but also, like, so like a triple thing, but really make it feel right. I'm not thinking about any kind of substitutions, just one thing. And then, like, a lot of times, I'll think of something I could play. Like, right there, I was like, but I don't play that. I'm just like, in my mind, I'm

bo-bo-bo-ba-sked-lid-le- So what you're working on here is like your time feel, like keeping it in time, your rhythmic feel, some language things. And again, like. But more language, that I'm not actually playing. That's all them, like things that I'll think of, but don't play them. Because sometimes, like, we have to practice,

like, once we get to playing, like the beautiful thing, but also potentially the curse of being able to improvise, but wanting to keep developing your skill at doing that, is that once you're doing it, once you're in action,

like you have to let go of all the different things of like, I'm going to put a triple. I mean, you don't have to, but it's very hard to be successful and get better as a soloist if you're not willing to just let go of that.

So when you're, soloing, whether you're just practicing soloing, like you're on a gig or you're actually on a gig or you've got one person listening or a million or you're doing a recording. You've got to go through that process. But when you're practicing it, you can't just do that. But so because otherwise, you don't

let your ear, and it's such a cliche, but playing what you hear, we have to practice doing that. A lot of time that means not actually playing what you hear. It's just hear it. But play something. But play something. Babelow, because otherwise, if

I play, like I know all these things I can, my fingers know how to do. And I'm kind of hearing them. But otherwise, I'm just going to do what's comfortable or what I'm in the habit of doing or what's part of my current repertoire.

And if you're at home and you're thinking like, oh, I can do this so easily. Something else to think about is, can you do this? Instead of this, can you do? Right. G-flat blues. Can you do a B?

B blues, can you do, you know, an A blues? Can you do rhythm changes in all 12 keys and feel comfortable? Not doing like crazy McCoy Tyner solos, but like literally just like hearing anything in B flat, right, on rhythm changes, hearing anything on D on rhythm changes, right? Without having to like search for things, even slower than that, you know? Absolutely. Just the most basic versions. Go slower than what you slow. People always like, how slow should I practice?

how fast, practice slower, anywhere slower than you can actually fully execute something. Yeah. Go slower. Yeah. Never be at, like, if you're messing anything up, and by messing up, I mean the time, the changes, even if you feel like you're not controlling the sound enough,

slow it down even more. You know, it's going to get harder at first, but you'll find that place and, like, what you'll gain from that in terms of, like, technique, but also like ear stuff that you slow down enough to start to have to hear it in advance, all these little things. Like, that's kind of where it's at.

And that takes time because it's like it's really more of a philosophy or a concept than in a specific like information about how to practice. I know I'm showing it on one thing and then you're showing it on different keys and stuff. But like it starts to manifest itself as a philosophy of how you're going to approach practicing. And that's the important information. That's right. It's getting it's getting, first of all, just getting to the instrument consistently working on something. Yeah. Got to do something.

Yeah. Peter Martin, 2024. But also just taking what you have. basic things of what you have and exhausting them through some like essential foundational principles. You mentioned too when you were just walking that G-Bloos about like practicing hearing things. One of my favorite exercises to do in Open Studio Pro is actually our ritualistic warm-up. Yeah. It sounded kind of dark, but it's like a call to practice.

It is. The call to prayer. The chromatic scale. And we'll do it. We've been doing it very slowly. It is creepy, though, when you take that teacup and go ding at the end of it. and then get everyone to wire or Venmo you a dollar. That's weird.

Yeah, don't spill that tea. No, we work on the chromatic scale sometimes. We work on other scales, but the chromatic scale is great because as soon as you kind of have a basic version of the chromatic scale, you don't need to think about anything. Yeah. Right? It's just all the notes, especially when you're going this slowly, you know? And what we like to do is I'll have everybody play it once, four octaves, right?

So I'll do that now. I would even go slower than this, but I'm going to speed up just a little bit. Actually, let's do two octaves here. do these two octaves. And the first time we're just playing it. Not thinking about anything. But now that we've heard it, what I often ask the students to do,

I'll invite them to now play it again. And as you're playing it, see if you can hear it in your mind's ear, right? We have your mind's eye where I can say, think of a pink elephant. You can vision a pink elephant. And by the way, scientifically you know that there's degrees to which people can see

the visions. Like some people can see very realistic things. Some people, it's more like a shadowy version. I'm seeing a cartoony pink elephant. Most people do. It's a pink elephant. It doesn't really exist. But you can have the same effect

with your mind's ear. You can hear things. And I'll often invite people to... Let's play this chromatic scale again. Mind's ear. Mind's ear. Your mind's ear. Let's play it again. And in your mind's ear,

I want you to try to hear... The first version I do is I want you to try to hear what it would sound like if it were played by your favorite piano player. This is often kind of the easiest. step in. So the pianist that you love their sound the most. So for me I might think someone like...

Jerry Lou Lewis. Oh, sorry. I thought we were saying at the same time. Jerry Lou Lewis. Jerry Lou Lewis? Jerry Lou Lewis? Can we back that up? Jerry Lou Lewis. No, they'll pack anything out. Peter Martin, 2024. No, so I'll invite you to think about what would it sound like if on this instrument

Keith Jarrett played this scale? Right? Which you're like, why would Keith Jared have it? It would sound like this. It would be all try it. You'd be all try it. That's wrong. That's not right. Sorry, Keith.

Love you, Keith. Yeah, I love you, Keith. No, but the idea is... It would sound amazing. It would sound amazing, right? But what would the character... First of all, he would never play a Rhodes. What would the characteristics sound like?

What would it feel like if Keith were to play this chromatic scale? And the idea is, can you hear that as you're doing it? As you're about to hit the episode, can you hear the sound? Then the most important part about this, is can you completely let go of anything that actually happens? So whether you nail it or you fail it, can you not care about the results at all? Just focus your mind on the sound in your minds here

of what would it sound like if Keith Jarrett played this scale and can you just hear it? That's practicing hearing it. And like oftentimes people say like, well, if I don't care about the results, I'm not going to sound good. I'm like, give it a shot. See if you can not care about the results. Right.

Like, just try not caring about the results. Because I guarantee you, you're not going to last 10 seconds. It's like the first time someone tries to meditate. Like, yeah, I can pay attention to my breath. Yeah, see how long you can last. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's the same kind of thing.

It's almost impossible for human beings not care about our results. Right. But it's a noble exercise. And what it does, when you do this, if you try this with me now, you're at home and your keyboard, if we do this scale two octaves, and I try to think about, for me, it's Keith Jarrett. It could be Herbie Hancock, could be Bill Evans, could be Peter Martin. But I'm thinking about how this would sound in my mind's here.

And then the important part, again, letting go of the results. I don't care if I do it or I don't. I'm just focusing on the sound. What happens? I'm smiling right now because it always sounds better to me. Like it always sounds good. I'm always delighted by how good it sounds. But more than that, it has become effortless.

It's like this effortless, beautiful sound that usually happens. I can't quite get this on every solo. I do every gig I do. But this is a practice of mine that has been really fruitful over the last couple of years because when I'm nailing it, when I'm actually not caring about if I nail or fail, but I'm just focusing on hearing the music that I want to hear, it is easier and it always sounds better. And then even if it doesn't sound good, if I'm doing it right, I don't care.

It feels good. It feels great. Yeah, I don't care. And then you could take this too once you kind of get used to like trying to hear your, I often say your favorite piano player because oftentimes we have an idea of what their sound is more than our own sound but ideally you want to be like

what would this sound like if I played this ideally for me today on this instrument right if we can get there that's kind of the promise land for a lot of people it takes a little bit of work to get to that place so is the like say like by saying well this sound like if Keith Jarrett was playing this chromatic scale

is that more of like almost like triggering a growth mindset for you like as opposed to being like like a fixed mindset would be more like well I don't know because I've never heard Keith Jarrett just play a play a chromatic scale

but but it's like to be not just aspirational as far as like well I'm going to judge how much I fail and then I'll practice more and one day I'll be able to play the scale like you but maybe there's a little bit of like connecting yourself with the music connecting yourself with the greats but also just it's it's almost immaterial yeah Keith Jarrett comes in mind because he's such an

incredible player and so it's kind of like easy to be like, wow. It would almost be a cliche. Can you play a chromatic guy like Keith Jerry? That means like can you shoot a three-pointer like Steph Curry? Like even if you don't know basketball, you're like, well, that's going to be pretty good. Yeah. And you might think, no, I could never do that.

But like, who hasn't sat in the gym if you have any connection with basketball, especially when you're a kid and we talk about being an infant again as we get older and like taking a basketball and you're like, man, I don't know. It's so far. I don't know. But then you're thinking about because why, you've seen Steph Curry on TV do it and you're like, you take on some of the affectations. connect yourself or try to somehow like,

and if it goes in, oh man, for that moment, you are Steph Curry. But what you're actually doing is you are developing your taste as you do this. This is actually the goal.

And I think we talked about this with Fred Hirsch once on a mentor session because he was kind of echoing a similar thing. And I think me and him had a bit of a back and forth about this because it was, I was so honored that he kind of thinks along the same lines. If you don't have a sound in your head, how can you have it on the keyboard?

Right? If you don't have a vision or a feeling of what shooting a jump shot looks like, how can you possibly do it? Well, even the pros, when they come to the free throw line, what do they do before? They bouts it and then they... They give a little, they practice the motion. Yeah. And this is a similar thing.

If you can't have a sound in your head of what you want to sound like, how are you expecting, then you're just running your fingers over your keyboard. It doesn't matter. You're going to have a terrible sound. You don't have any point of view on anything. So this is practical. And why not aim high? Aim high.

But then also, when you kind of can switch it and turn it around on yourself and say, well, what would this sound like if I were to play this ideally for me? If I had my ideal sound on this instrument today, what would that sound like? It also forces you into your own discernment of like choosing your own, like choosing your own taste as opposed to letting your taste choose you.

Yes. Right? Of like really trying to whittle down. What do I want to hear? And this is a great way to like, we're going to refute in advance. I know some people are going to be like, Wait, hold on.

We're supposed to be doing things to develop our personality and our son. We're going to spend all this time trying to sound like Keith Jarrett, and then you're going to get on the gig. And at best, give it a shot. Go, go. No, but this is a thing. This is what I was saying earlier. Like, once you get on the gig, if you do this stuff right, and by do this stuff right,

I don't mean play a chord. I mean, I'm saying, like, except that you're, this philosophy, not these specific, like, some of this stuff you can sub out, you can do a whole tone. I mean, you can do whatever you want. So we're not saying this specific information, but this approach, this concept, this philosophy, this kind of, you know, way of going about that, you know, practicing and developing, like we're talking about, once you get on the gig or practice performing or just play, you're not going to be, you're not going to be able to escape sounding like yourself.

That's true. And wherever you are, which is what the goal is. That's the goal. You know what I mean? And if that ends up being exactly like Keith Jerry, well, God bless you. You know, that's not a bad place to show up. But, I mean, the whole thing is like this will reveal that's going to set the bar. And it's not even like, oh, he.

can play a chromatic scale better than Herbie Hay. No, it's like these are just different, this is Mount Rushmore. You take your pick. No, you like Robert Glassmer? Well, then you like, you know, Robert's taste in Herbie Hancock and Chickoria and McCoy-Tiner. Yeah.

You like Brad Meldow? Well, then you like Brad Meldow's taste in all, in McCoy-Tiner and all the people that came before him. And, I mean, it's like you're not, like, because I think what we're describing is coming really with a pure heart musically and, like, really trying to get the mind's ear happening as we practice. You don't have to worry about all. well, then am I going to be judging myself when I'm playing,

that I don't sound like that, or that I do sound like that, or I'm like that. This is going to, what's going to get you. And it's not going to be perfect or overnight, but this will get you to the point where when you're performing, you're not going to be able to escaping yourself. But that's where the second half of this comes in very handy. Wait, we're only halfway done?

No, the second half of that exercise. It's not just trying to hear what Keith Jarrett would play. It's letting go of results, even if you do it, of not patting yourself on the back for nailing it. And that's what's going to lead you when you're playing to that same kind of great... Non-judgmental, hearing the music

that's inside of you. Instead of a negative one. And all you're doing is practicing, getting the music that is in your... you're practicing, developing your own taste

and getting the music that's in your head to the keyboard, and then you're letting go of anything that actually happens in reality. And that is the promised land for me of like

being free and open and just trying to hear what the spirit of the moment is telling me to play, right? It's like to really connect with my first, fellow players, with the people in the audience, with the birds chirping outside the window,

everything here and like make it a part of the music without judgment, without putting my ego forward, with just being in music. And that is, it's a high goal and it's probably unattainable. Well, that's what makes it fun. It is really fun. I mean, this is Wayne practicing a half step for eight hours, or we'll say 18 hours. But that idea of if you can really work on that consistently of trying to hear a sound and then letting go of the results of what you're what you're doing just let yourself have that again a lot of people when i when i bring this up are like well not just i what if i sound like he's chair but it they are they do say stuff like well how can i let go of results like i'll just sound bad it's like give it again give it a shot yeah for 15 minutes right like just

give yourself a little space for a minute to just give it a shot yeah yeah full circle that's a callback that's a pro move no give it a shot see how long you can last without judging your and what you play, because it's more difficult than you think, even with hours and hours and hours of practice. And it's such a great, like, when you get into the zone, and if you can get there 70, 80% of your practice time, that's great. Even if you get there 50% of this, it's going to be really interesting because this is the type of practice that is super beneficial,

and it's super fun and it's super, it's like, it's the kind of thing that you do that, like, the time just stop. Yeah. And then you look up and it's like two hours of gone by and you're like, wow. You know? Another question. And it is, but I also would say this is definitely practicing smarter, not harder. Yeah. You know, because when, it's like anything, once it gets to be fun, like that, it doesn't feel like practice and work. It's just like it's invigorated. You're going to get energy from this. Another thing this practice can do, I think, or just the idea of listening to your mind's ear in general, working on the music that's inside of you, trying to hear the music that is, wants to come out is a lot of people will say, well, what if I don't have, I'm not hearing a lot of music. Well, you need to load. your hard drive with some music so that you can play the, play the music that wants to come out.

So you need to listen. And you start to realize, we talk about transcription. It's about learning solos, it's about learning music that masters we play. So that's another exercise in discernment, in developing your taste. And then in spending time with what you want to be doing and letting that sort of flow through you. And so you can't hear something that you've never, like, you can't hear music that you have no reference. for it all. Right. And people shouldn't get confused with this, but they're like, hold on a second. I know somebody that's got great ears. They can hear something one time and then just like play it

right back and stuff. It's not quite the same. It's not the same. Exactly. And I think it's there, because there's that that marination process. It's like you can make the portobello mushroom and put it on the grill. And if you put the sauce on right before, yeah, it's going to work. But if you let it marinate in there first, you know, it's going to be a different flavor. It's going to seep in deeply. And I think that's what you're referring to is like that marination period. And not everything you listen to is going to resonate with you. Right. So there's some, there's some taste. That's great. That's good. Is there not a world of music out here? There's a world of music. But you can't, again, like, you can't, you can't get there unless you

actually spend a lot of time listening to music. And I was about to say music you love, but it really doesn't matter. You'll find music you love. Well, and this is the other fun part. Yeah, this is keep listening. This is the fun part of it. And this is where the information can get in the way sometimes because it's like, oh, well, the information, doing these scales, doing the voicing, using this drop two system or whatever. These are all things that work and there's great examples of them. But if you get caught up in that just as like a system as an input to get a certain output, you're missing the point. Yes, you get that. But then experience that. Listen to Barry Harris. If you're interested in a drop two, like listen to the master doing it and absorb that.

And then don't like it feel guilty like, oh, I should be at the piano. Like an hour of listening to the same track over and over again. It's good work. It's good work and it's good fun. You know, it's like, you know, if I told you you could go to a brewery and just drink beers, and the more that you drank, the better you'd feel and the healthier you would get. It's not the case, though, but this is like, where do we find things that, like, the more you do of something up to a point? Then, of course, you've got to take it to the instrument, but you get that balance right.

The listening part can be so important, so fun, and such a, like, direct connection the same way when we aspire to play a scale, like, Keith Gerrida, however, when we listen to something, We watch Steph Curry. Of course, like, you're not going to be able to just sit there and watch the NBA all day and then just go play in a pickup game. You got to also practice. You got to work out and stuff, but you get that balance right. It's fun. In the spirit of balance, I will bring up to a quote from Miles Davis, who said,

Cats today are listening to too many records to be themselves. Right. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. Musicians Today, young musicians today. He also said Stevie Wonder is a sad AMF. That was a hilarious pose. You see that, Nicholas Payton, we'll talk about that.

We need to actually talk about that. We need to actually talk about jazz beefs. I don't know if you've been following the Kendrick Lamar, Drake. Of course. Oh, my God. I'm all over that. It's incredible. I mean, I'm no Drake fan, but I'm also like, I don't like disparaging.

I love Canada. It's so funny that Nicholas Payton posted that. So he's referencing this article where Miles Davis and Stevie one. It's from 1974 downbeat, which is crazy, you know. Miles Davis and Stevie Wonder have a beef. It's really one side of it. It's a one side of it. He seemed to be like, man, that's crazy.

Steve just elevated like above the whole thing so well. Yeah. Talk about letting go with the results. Yeah, yeah. But I was thinking we could do a jazz beast thing. I mean, they'll mostly be Miles with other musicians. Miles with Winton? I remember that when Musician magazine, like 1984.

Yeah. That one was good. Miles had a beep with Witten? Yeah. Really? Oh, man. Huge one. And they had an article where they were like debating stuff, you know.

Charles Bingoes shot his piano player. Well, that goes beyond beat. Yeah. Lee Morgan's wife shot him. I don't think that, is that a jazz beef or just a jazz. Count. Husband wife beef. That's a sad domestic diffuse.

Yeah, it was. But anyway, well, this is great, man. I want to say, since we're talking about community and commune and how am I going to connect as commenting. Yes, I want to comment on an important thing today. Today is producer Caleb's birthday. So we want you guys to send some virtual love. You're going to be a couple weeks late.

By the way, Caleb, more than one request for a Caleb Mike. Exactly. You had one for a while. Yeah, we had it in the comments. If you could post something permanently over there, we would use it. Yeah. All right. I'm not going to tell everybody.

He just says the look of like, great, more work for me. He's like, I got to mix three mics though. Anyway, we want to send out a big shout out to producer Caleb and send him a lot of love on his birthday today. Yeah, for real. Who holds this whole thing together. That's right. Yeah.

What else we got? That's it, man. Did we hit an hour? Oh, yeah. He certainly did. Caleb's like, give you a mic now. Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for listening today.

Thanks for the great comments. Yeah, you can't information in your way to being a better player. but you can go to OpenCediojazz.com slash pro and become a better player. Until next time. You'll hear it.