You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Greatest Duet Album Ever?

Episode Date: July 22, 2024

1972... Something about that year just hit different! The albums from this era are too good and this one sets the standard high. Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway are two of the greatest singers that century had ever seen and their contributions have helped musicians in all genres. How would you rate this seminal album?Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Check out the albumBBC ReviewHave a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. You know, today we're listening to an album by Donnie Hathaway and Roberta Flack. Oh, I can't wait. One of my favorites. You know what it's called, though? Yeah, Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway. That makes sense.

Yep. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear It Podcasts. Music Explored. Explored today, we're exploring one of the greats, one of the all-time great records. Doesn't get any better than this. It doesn't get any better.

And you know what, Peter, this is an album, Roberta Flack and Donie Hathway. It's from 1972. Yeah. 1972, one of the greatest years in music history. Oh, so much. It's kind of like a 1959. It's an incredible year for music history. And this album...

Wait, which Taylor Swift album was released in 72? I believe it was 1890, 1989, was released in 1972, ironically. It was prethumously. Yeah, yeah. Preith... Primothusely. Pre-mothously. No, but this...

Oh, do you want me to tell... Sorry, sorry to Rao. Let's do that early. You want me to tell you about 1972? because I don't think you know about 1972, and I do. I was literally not on the planet. I was in diapers. I'm not going to lie, but I was exploring the world in 72.

It was a great time. Yeah, I was not alive. Great time for music. For war and politics and stuff, not great. Not great. But for music, great. So here's what was going on here in 1970s. This was released in April, 1972.

Although the singles for this were kind of happening for like a year before. Yeah. The cultural context. of the Roberta Flack, Donny Hathaway album. The president was good old Dick Nixon. He was on his way out, though. Richard. His days were numbered.

Richard Millhouse. He was going to be doing this pretty soon, which is for a heavy metal, right? Some things going on in sports, Peter. The MLB had its first ever strike that stopped baseball in this month. The United States and the USSR and 70 other nations agreed to ban

biological weapons at the biological weapons at the Biological Weapons Convention. Sounds like a fun convention. Is that like Roundup? They banned Roundup? They certainly didn't ban that. The number one movie in America was The Godfather. Man, that's one of the greatest movies ever.

The number one TV show was all in the family. So I do remember... Some pretty good pop culture going on right now. I remember watched, like my parents watching that probably a few years after this, but I remember kind of like seeing that that was one of the early sitcom, Norman Lee or shout-up. Now, the number one pop song of 1972

is a big part of the... album we're listening to today. It wasn't on the album, but it's one of the reasons why this album was made. It's one of the reasons why this album was such a hit. The number one pop song in 72 was the first time ever I saw your face from Roberta Flack. That's from her 1969, I believe, album. Yes. Yeah. For some reason, it came alive. First take. First take. Yeah. And it came alive in 72 after it was featured in a Clint Eastwood film. Yes. And it was a huge hit for Roberta Flack. And so her record label, Atlantic Records, put her, decided to put her together with another young singer-songwriter

who actually Roberta Flack had recorded some of his songs and worked with before, Diney Hathaway, and they made this duo record, which we're going to talk about a little bit, Peter, the duo records and why they were so amazing at this time and even a little after. And it just kind of fell off as far as like true, like equal duo. We'll talk about that when we get to the rants. So that's kind of the cultural landscape, right?

You've got the godfather, you got all in the family, the great Norman Lear, great Carol O'Connor. You got the first time ever I saw your face, Roberta Flack taken off. And so that's when this album drops. Yes, absolutely. And so Donnie was actually a little bit younger than Roberta at this time. He was 27 when they released this record.

Robert Flack was 35. And they both went to Howard University. but I don't believe they knew each other. They weren't there at the same time. But they have a lot of, you know, musical and cultural connections before they even met. You can hear it in the music. We're going to talk about the intersection of classical gospel and jazz,

piano playing in particular, of course, vocals. Both Verda and Donnie were incredible keyboardists, pianists, organists, electric pianists, but also incredible vocalists and songwriters. So it was a lot of talent coming together. to be harsh. And for Donnie, this was actually his third record on Atlantic. His next record after this in, I mean, this was back in the time when like, you're coming out with an album every year, you know. But extensions of a man came next in 73 and that's a very, that's, you know, might be an apex mountain for him kind of personally and musically.

But he had a lot of great stuff. He's just coming off of the, the, Danny Hathaway Live, which was at the bitter end in New York and the Trooper in L.A. So a lot of buzz about him But, you know, Stevie Wonder Talking Book came out in 72 So like there was, it wasn't like Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway It was the only thing in this R&B genre That folks were listening to

Of this creative music, Black American music genre Was talking about 72 or 71? I think it came out in 72. So here's all of, I've got a list here of some of the biggest albums in 1972 How about this for a list, right? Exile on Main Street, the Rolling Stones, Harvest, Neil Young,

Pink Moon, Nick Drake. The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust. Drake from Canada? From England. The rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust from David Bowie. Young Gifted and Black,

Aretha Franklin. Let's Stay Together, Al Green. Talking book, Stevie Wonder. Fox Chot Trot Genesis. That's an underrated album there. Paul Simon's first solo album, Paul Simon. For the Roses, Joni Mitchell.

Superfly Curtis Mayfield. Roxy Music, Roxy Music of My Mind, Stevie Wonder. On the corner, Miles Davis. Chicago 5 We got What else here?

It looks good Dr. John's Gumbo came out here Oh, that's a great record And St. Dominic's preview from Van Morrison I mean this is like Oh, the Grand Razoo from Frank Zappa

This is an incredible, incredible year for music, something, anything from Todd Rundgren Also an incredible album Can't Buy a Thrill Steely Dan Transformer from Lou Reed I mean this is like This is some classic

Shoutout 72. Dude, I think I did a whole show once with our mutual friend Brian Owens where we just did music from 1972. And it was like, bangor after bang or after bang. Wait, did you say tapestry? No. That was 72. That was right around here. No, I think that was 74, I think.

Oh, 74. Okay. I think so. Or 75. But that's, I mean, so we're going to talk about Carol King. Because she, of course, had a big imprint on this album. We're listening to today and with her own version of, as well as James Taylor. I mean, all these came out right around that same time, the version of, you've got a friend.

But you mentioned Curtis Mayfield, so there's a connection there with Donnie Hathaway. That's kind of how he got his start when he was up in Chicago. Donny Hathaway, of course, St. Louis's own Vashon High School, graduate from but a mile from where we sit now, but had a big Chicago connection. I believe he was born in Chicago. And also passed away tragically early. Yes. Donny Hathway.

His career in life cut tragically short. One of the big tragedies of, I think it was in 78 or 79, was cut short. I mean, he was, I believe he was right around 40. I don't think he was 40. I don't think he was 40. But just a massive force in the music and a child prodigy. You know, like kind of, I mean, from really little in terms of playing and singing, came up singing in the church. And, you know, classical players, some jazz, obviously blues, gospel, kind of a lot of different influences and skills that he developed.

So by this time, I mean, he was like only 27, but he had a lot to say. He'd already written a lot of music for others. He had his own band, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, yeah, I mean, I think Roberta Flack, too, like we mentioned first take, that's a record that I really like, and that's from a few years before. When she was about his age on this record, of course, the great Ron Carter's on there. Roberta's piano playing is featured. It was a huge hit as well, especially when the Clint Eastwood movie came out.

But this was sort of the beginning of her really, you know, starting to, I guess she really crossed over a few years later in terms of radio and stuff. kind of a weird time when the music was still being segregated in some whack ways. But like you say, 72, just an incredible year. And you know, you can kind of hear in the music in terms of the creativity that was making it onto the pop charts. You know, that didn't first happen in 72. But I mean, this was just like, it was like a snowball coming down the mountain.

It was like an avalanche of hipness. And I think that this record, although it's not the most famous record from that year, it did sell over a million copies, which is huge. but it's just not one that's celebrated on the inside, but it's not celebrated on the outside. The fact that this talking book can't buy a thrill, Let's Stay Together, all came out in the same year. It's really unbelievable.

And like the kind of creative music that was being released into the popular genres. It's amazing. And we're going to talk about as we go kind of, you know, of course the huge imprint of Atlantic records on a lot of these great records, Aretha Franklin, and, you know, Arif Martin and Jill Dorn and that whole game,

Wexler, of course. But why don't we get into listening to some of this record? Well, hold on. Let's talk about a little bit of the band who's playing here. So it's Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway. They're both playing keys and singing.

Yes. So there'll be some tracks where she's playing Rhodes and he's playing piano and vice versa. And they're both singing both tracks. I don't want to say they're interchangeable, but there's times. Like, I know both they're playing pretty well.

And I was looking at different citations as to who's playing. I think some of these aren't right. So we're going to talk, we may be wrong when we talk about who's playing. I'm just kind of going by instant. in terms of who's playing an acoustic piano, who's playing an electric,

because sometimes there's both. And Roberta's playing some organ on here, and I believe Donnie has, it does as well. So our apologies in advance if we screw up any of these. I mean, obviously the most famous track on here in a lot of ways for the piano playing is Roberta, which is for all we know, and Donnie's singing on that.

So that one we do know for sure. But yeah, Eric Gail on guitar, who of course went on to have a fantastic career as a session player. Yeah, and David Spinoza too, incredible session player with people like John Lennon, Paul McCartney. Chuck Rainey is one of the great bass players of his generation. Bernard Purdy on drums. Pretty Purdy.

Pretty Purdy. Ever heard of him. Billy Cobham on drums. He's on one track. On one track. Yeah. Ralph McDonald on percussion. Jack Jennings and Joe Gentle on flute.

Hubert Laws. Who has a great, great, on flute. A little stunning moment that we're going to highlight, I think. Joe Farrell on soprano sax. Yeah. And Areef Martin. on the string arrangements on a couple of those tracks, produced by Joel Dorn and Arif Martin, producer, and mixing.

Yeah. And it was recorded from March through October of 1971 in a bunch of different spots. Crystal Industries, Hit Factory, List Studio, Power Station, RCA, Regent Sound, Atlantic. Yeah, they were doing this all over the place. Yeah. Cool.

Should we get into listening to you? Yeah. Well, okay, you know how we like to do it here at the You'll Hear of Podcast? We like to listen to the first track because that's the way the album was presented. And this album is very unique the way it starts, I think. It's very confident. Very confident. It's almost like, it's not really aggressive, but with its confidence, it's almost passive-aggressive

with the level of confidence that it has. I think it's great. It's sort of stunning in a way. It's jarring. It's jarring. It's jarring. And it really draws you in. I think there's some incredible stuff going on.

So let's take a listen to I. who have nothing. Chuck Rainey. That phrasing. What a great start. What a great opening phrase. That's a musical statement. Chuck Rainey up to the third.

Details. Try it turns up. Is that legal? Is that legal on a platinum album? That's Roberta. Oh, no, that's Donnie on piano. Reverta's on roads. This whole band did Chuck Rainey,

Donnie on the piano. Yeah. And you know what's amazing about this track? I think the most special part about it starting off the album is that... Oh, is that bass drum? It captures a musical tone, which is this very down-tempo slowness, but the theme of the song, which is very devotional. I have nothing but love to offer something that someone with a lot of money and diamonds

doesn't have for you. It really sets the tone of the lyrics of the album. You've got a friend, you got baby. I love you. You've got for all we know, where is the love? All of the themes of the record are this very humble love.

This is not like a brash talk of the walk kind of record. Where is the love? This is a very like humble, introspective I'm devoted to love. I'm devoted to you kind of album. And I think that track is such a special choice

because they set the mood. lyrically more, I mean, obviously, musically, it's, everything is so top shelf. Yeah. But lyrically, I love that choice because it sets the tone, the emotional tone of the album. Yes. You know, when we listen to these songs from here on out, you're going to hear this theme of devotion of like, you know, I'm not here to be a winner. I'm here to love, you know, this kind of like the theme I get from this, which is an incredibly

beautiful sentiment. And so I love that for the opening track. And yeah, and there's some really cool things happening musically too. Yeah, and maybe we'll grab just a couple of those. But I totally agree. And I mean, the fact that they're able to craft this record, there's a lot of back and forth, yin and yang in terms of like the mood. This is starting with a lot of gravitas.

This is start, I mean, musically. And then lyrically, they're taking it. Like, I don't think this is the strongest lyrics on this album by far. But the way that they phrase it and combining with, the vibe. They make it into something amazing. But, no, I think it's fantastic. But it's like the angle that they took for this song is kind of weird, you know, but it's so great. I mean, the, the, what they were able to bring out of it. And I think because of that really strong musical statement that they make, which is pretty,

I mean, I don't know how many seconds is before they start singing, but it's a while. Let's just check out the beginning. And this out of time, G minor. And this was an Italian pop song. Yeah. And Ben E. King had a hit with new English lyrics back in the 61. It was like a big hit and, you know, Italy's always had big pop hits. Everybody likes to sing there. Well, this is what's so great about it is it feels very Italian and sentiment. You know what I mean? It feels very dramatic.

And the melodies are soaring in this like kind of like operatic way. But I think, I think like Robert and Donnie personalized it in a way. Now, of course, we have the context of history and knowing like their musical relationship and then, you know, the agony of Donnie's life. for how Robert had helped. And like all the, the tragedy of it. So maybe I'm putting too much on it. But I feel like they personalize it in a way.

And a couple of these other tunes, too, they really capture the time, the political strife with race relations in the U.S. during this time. Black power movement, all these different things. Like, that was all very present. I mean, be real black for me,

which we're going to listen to too. Incredible. It's one of the most amazing statements on this record. Stunning track. But I think this, starting out in this way with a cover to be able to craft that, this is normally something you have to create yourself to try to get to this kind of vibe. And I think the music is what does that.

And then they're able to personalize the lyrics in a way. And then they're immediately on the blues, right? Can we give a shout out too to the country of Italy for the great melodies over the years? Yeah, man. They're good at melody over there. And four minor. Just very simple stuff, but kind of weird, you know. And Purdy, like, I mean, the heart, like, I mean, obviously, Bernard Pretty is the heartbeat of the design.

when a track is like this. And you're at the beginning. They probably didn't know it was the beginning of the album. But I mean like Purdy's groove when he comes in is like, it's kind of a scary instant. It's just like you're not alive

and like they put those things on you. Boom. And then you, but you talk about an irregular heartbeat. This is a regular heartbeat. Donnie's piano playing throughout the whole album this track too. And he's not like,

it's very. No, man. But that's pretty. King of dynamics. And I mean, look, this... I love, by the way, this year, we talked about all those great records. I don't know if it's because

all the great music that was made this year or vice versa, but production during this time, the early 70s, my favorite era. Apex Mountain for production. Apex Mountain for production. Is it perfect clarity and all that? No, but is it vibe-wise?

Is it just the right... I mean, it's raining outside. I could just listen to Bernard Pertie, play that kick drum for like 15 minutes. Yeah, I mean, is it the cleanest recorded ever? Maybe, in a way. Like, it's, I mean, it's the most human and clarity of humanity coming through a baster. But there's this intersection of the things that the technology was putting on the music. Yes.

And the analog clarity of the day that I think is unsurpassed. Yeah. And I mean, I think that what you hear with the way that Donnie and Roberta are phrasing some of those lines, like this is not just, oh, they just got together and did this in one take. That you can tell, like, they really did some work. But it wasn't, it wasn't like pitch control and like, like, you can hear the breaths and, like, you hear the human, like, they are listening to each other. And they're matching the vibrato. And what's crazy is they're way different voices. They're way different kinds of singers.

Which gives you that beauty of that duo. Like Donnie Hathaway, no joke. And this was going to be on one of my hot takes later. Might be the greatest singer who ever lived. Just pure singer. Just his voice and his choices and his control and his range. And what he can do is, I think, up there with anybody. Yeah.

Strong, clear, control, emotion, is telling the song, range, all of it. Roberta Flack has a more like vulnerable sounding voice. She doesn't have, I mean, she's an incredible singer, but she doesn't have that same level of like vocal ability. Yeah. I think that Donnie has, but they are, but she's such an incredible musician.

She's able to match, they're able to match each other so perfectly. And I love her voice. I'm not saying that she's like not a good singer. I think she's a fantastic singer. I'm just saying he's like, as like a goat, right? One of the goats. Yeah.

Anybody's going to be like, how do you keep up with that? Yeah, totally. And like, but they blend so seamlessly. It's really incredible. I mean, it's a testament to both of their abilities

as musicians to be able to do that as well. Totally agree. And I mean, I, because that's a taste thing. That's not a technique thing. Right, right. No, I mean,

you know how much I love Stevie Wonder, but in terms of just vocal abilities, Donnie's a tick above. Oh, hot take. Sorry, we're getting ahead of ourselves with that. I agree with that. Can we catch that one tritone sub just because it's fun?

Oh, I went right to it. So there, it's going back to the G minor, right? Oh, so great. So great, and it's just so confident the way they go to it. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. All right, I could get stuck on this track all day, but we got other tracks to go to my friend. I think Chuck Rainey, oh, man.

Is he, he's definitely an underdog Chuck Rainey. I mean, I know he's been on everything, but. Oh, yeah. He's on a lot of stuff you don't even realize these. He's on... I think he's on... What was the Steely Dan from 72 record? The Camp I throw?

I think he might be on that. He might be on that. He might be on that. He's on a lot of shit. Well, look, I'm going to read this here. I couldn't find a lot of reviews on it, but I really like this BBC review, which was actually from many years later. This will give us a little context on the album

as we dive into it. One of the best duet albums of all time, Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway was made at the request of Atlantic producer Jerry Wexler. Flack and Hathaway had been friends at Howard University. I don't think that's true. I think that was kind of a legend because I don't think they were there at the same time. Anyway, and Hathaway had played piano on Flack's early albums.

It was Wexler's suggestion that the two initially record Carol Kings, you've got a friend. They took the song out of middle class Bohemian Bed Sits and relocated it to the inner city. Okay, this is some, I don't know about it. This might be some UK opinion of what's happening, but possibly. Released simultaneously with James Taylor's version, the two covers vied for U.S. charts space. Flack and Hathaway's reading is so heartfelt and emotional.

It's probably the best cover of King's original. The song that really cemented the popularity of Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway was Where is the Love? A molasses sweet pop song, it was written by Ralph McDonald and William Salter and originally intended for the vocal group Fifth Dimension. It sounds as sweet, breezy and peach as any of Stevie Wender's high period ballads. That's weird. And remained on the U.S. charts for the best part of the... of a year. It also made the UK top 30 in 1972.

People who bought the album on the strength of that hit were surprised to find a work of great depth and tenderness. A cover of You Lost That Loving Feeling detunes the drama Phil Spector's Righteous Brothers original. We're going to get into that and makes it an anguished urban whisper between lovers.

Really leaning into the urban angle. Be Real Black for me was a perfect anthem for the Black as Beautiful Movement, a celebration of African-Americanism. As it progresses, becomes ever more solemn and somber, blah, blah, blah. We'll link to this review.

I think it's actually pretty good. A little bit of weird stuff, but some good stuff happening in there. So that was kind of, you know, you know, what's some reaction, some critical reaction to it. But I thought we could go into some bangers. Well, let's go into some bangers here.

So I want to play my banger. I just said Chuck Rainey, it was Steely Dan. I was confused about that. But yeah, not John Lennon, Steely Dan. Okay. they needed most of it.

But there was a story. I need to confirm it before I say it on the podcast. Ooh, stay tuned. There's a certain line. Poddell's verse. So my pick for a banger is, you've got a friend. It's the second track. Okay.

It is the James Taylor song, You've Got a Friend. And this version is one of my favorite songs of all time. Yep. It's good road sound right there. Roberta's choices are so interesting, but this line here is so much fun when you play it right. Is that it? Yeah. I've struggled with that over here. Well, it's hard to hear, and there's some interesting things.

You've got it. So we've got a D. It's in the key. We're in the key of A-flat. Of A-flat. And so it starts with this D-flat over F, right? And then this G-flat, sort of major seven. The middle notes stay the same. You got A-flats. A-flat-D-flat. F, A flat. Middle notes stay the same,

go up to B flat. Base moves to G flat. And then we got this F minor over G. Yeah. At C, F, A, F, A, C over the G. And then the second time, she just plays the octave of C's. Yeah.

There's so much little crunchy things happening. That G is real short. And then this 2.5. And then Robert is singing over that. And so Donnie's playing this like, this kind of voicing B flat F with a C on top and she does an A natural

let's listen to that that's so crazy but this is such a bangor this is the second track on the album yeah and again that feeling of humble love here in the

sense of now we're in this friendship but this is like the whole album is like a devotional album you know what I mean it's so beautiful the sentiment And then, I think this is one of the best vocal performances of all times. And soon, I mean, dude, come on. That's Donnie on.

There's Donny on Rose show. You just call out my name. Chuck Rainey. Busy as a beat. Busy in all the right ways. Is he going to get the, he might get the soul, the John Coltrane solo for him for, too. Very sparse array. It's that heart.

Carol can't write a banger on this one? So all you got to do is, all you gotta do is a little plaguel thing happening. Yeah. And then back to that. These are, okay, things James Taylor couldn't do. But these little harmonic alterations

happen on like three different tunes in the same way with that fourth movement, which kind of pulls the album together with all the covers. Can you imagine you're James Taylor, you release your version? And then at the same time they release this version, you must be like... They both had an audience. Well, the James Taylor version was a huge...

He's not crying. He's making a lot of money. Well, and I mean, Carol King's tapestry version is like, is a different thing too. I mean, Carol King wrote in a... I mean, to write a song that becomes obviously a hit, like kind of an anthem and just a beloved song from a bona fide pop hit, but that can be covered in three different ways at the same time is kind of like, that. That doesn't happen anymore. For real.

It's harmonizing up the lines. Underrated, major seven is a dominant seven. Donnie. That's a good solo too. Best part of the album. Oh, yeah. And it's just rolling along. Okay, so that's, this is my banger of a solo.

It's this one thing. Donnie says, look out and does this shit on the roads. that melts your face. It has no business to be in this. But he, one more time. For me, this is the Apex Mountain of the album. Nasty. Just this, like so.

No, one more time. One more time. See you again. Brandy kind of leads up to it, though. I can live in this group. Oh, they live there. That pentatomic. So they do that,

That kind of pentatonic harmonization on a couple tunes on here, which is really, they're so natural. And then the phrasing is together and, like, their ideas of which direction they're going to go is so interested. There's some amazing tracks on here. Obviously, B-Black for me and for all we know and where is the love. But I got to say, for me, you've got a friend, is the banger. Yeah. It's the banger. I think it's, I think it's, it might be Apex Mountain of Donnie Hathaway's vocal performances for me, too.

There's a lot. I mean, there's so much, there's so many good things to choose from. but it always is at the top of the mountain for me. That's great. Now I feel a little weird that I chose Where's the Love? No, there's nothing. Can't feel weird about where's the love, though. This is also like, but there's some cool stuff that happens.

This is obviously the biggest hit, the most popular. I'm just looking at the Spotify bangers. This is by far, I mean, over $41 million. Oh, yeah. This is the hit song of the record, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So let's check out a little bit of that. Oh.

Okay, can we just talk about how this starts? Chuck Rainey, Eric Gale, Like the rhythm section, this is a very subtle thing the way it starts. But like this is also a little bit of foreshadowing to the way the best, well, these were some of the best session players of the 70s would play. You're talking about Steely Dan and these different records. You know, Michael McDonald. What was it the, what was the band he came up in? The Doobie Brothers.

The Doobie Brothers. Free. Like the way. You sure you were born in 1971? I was young. So like, but that the clarity with which they would. execute on stuff. Like, check this out. I mean, just... Yeah, Newsflash, you get the best studio musicians in the studio.

And say, play great, and they just do it. With some really good songs. Chuck Rady on this is like, he's busy as a B, but it all all the right way is. Great string arrangement. I think Chuck might be vying for the Oscar Peterson overplaying award. Weird fourth movements on a pop hit. I like it. I'm here for it. And like that little part every time Chuck Raney does this a little bit differently. Like, that's the fun thing by listening this for so many years. Like, like, from that A flat up to the B flat.

Okay, we're going to talk about that a little later. I just talk about it now since we're there. I think this is giant steps. Tell me if I'm wrong here. Oh, this is good. It changes tonal centers by a major third. Yeah. Like if we're, they don't keep going.

It's a major third apart, just like giant steps. Okay, got it. Yeah. So I was right. You were right. Good. Yeah. But actually,

Giuseps says, do, do, do, do, do. Let's not ruin where's the love with Giuseps. We talk about this

another tune, underrated. Major, on, you've got a friend. Major seven, the dominant to the four, boom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all over this record. That's an underdog, for sure. Yeah. Underdog, yeah.

Oh, I love this line. Oh, man. See, Chuck Ray, a little different this time. Giant steps. What? I got to tell you about my Eric Gale, Giant Steps, John Coltrane connection. Oh, Daddy right here.

Age of Aquarius time, 1972. Hello. Okay, so that's amazing. We know that. It's a banger. It is a banger. What about your banger solo, man? What do you got?

Oh, banger. Okay. So for all we know, which, you know, I think this is a fantastic, it's obvious, a fantastic version with Dany's singing, Roberta on piano. And when Hubert Laws come in, comes in. But I'm going to actually start the beginning. It's not that far into it. But I'm playing the perfect accompaniment right now.

What incredible voice. That's what sets him. It's just to be that rich and full way up there in your little, like that sort of mid-voice. Is that Huberet Laws? Huberer Laws. I think that's the alto flute. Amazing. So that's just, he plays a little more after this, but like, it's not like Hubert

Law's most amazing playing or whatever. But to come into that sort of an intimate duo. with anything. You know, I just love, I just love, I just want to hear the way he just flies up that little line. It's just so right. A little half hole scale happening. But it's like, you know, there's a couple on a date at a beautiful Italian restaurant with

a little sequester table and you're going to come over and just like, how are you going to sit down with them? That's going to be hard. But if you got your little flute in your humor laws, there's an elegant way to do it. And I think he nailed it. Let's do some over underdogs. Oh, I love them. Yeah, over underdogs.

Overrated. Overrated. Okay. Now, I racked my brains on this. And the only thing I came up with is that Bernard Purdy is not overrated. Okay, that's under. That means underrated. We're going to do that later. Overrated. We're going to, I'm going to say original chord changes. Our original chord changes overrated because listen to, I want you to, I want to, we're going to, let me take you back here. That's not on this album. Are there any original chord changes? Well, actually, oh, yeah. Here's the, the righteous brothers. Yeah. Shout out, righteous brother. One.

Two over one. Five. One. This is beautiful, iconic. It's all sitting on the other. Five minor. Yeah. Which is hip.

Now let's listen to Roberta and Donnie. Basically. Key of G. Three. Three. Yeah. Four and a half diminished. Four and a half.

I love it. Six major Dominant Two dominant Yeah Chuck Rainey Open it up Five

And then the one So good And they do it again A flat Major sliding down Sliding down Approach

I don't know I mean that's so far away For the righteous brothers And it works somehow So I bet that was Donnie That was a lot of Donnie Yeah

See it feels like a lot of Donnie moves there So that is, yeah, overrated original chord changes. Also, this might be controversial. You know, I'm a string arranger. I love strings. I think the strings were a little overused on this album. I think... Overused or overrated?

Overrated in that they were overused. Interesting. I think where they're effective, they're perfect. Yeah. But I think they could have been on maybe three less track than they're on. Actually, now I'm thinking, like, so when they come in on for all we know, that's an overrated. Like, I... I'm hesitant to say this.

it's true. I'm hesitant to say it's because I think that track is so great. How can I not say it's the perfect greatest version of for all we know? But I feel like the string stuff is great at the end, but it wasn't needed. It wasn't needed. I think sometimes... But it's, the way it's done is great. I mean, you've done loads of string arranging too. Sometimes it's like, oh, we've got the strings. Let's put them on everything. And that is, I think, one of our primary jobs is string arrangers to say, like, actually, strings are not, like, it's more powerful if they're not on this track or if they're not in this section and to use them like you would use any other arranging tool. They don't have to play on everything. And they're very much a sprinkle in a lot of pop music.

So there's not, it's not like it has to carry anything. It's a texture that I think can sometimes be overused on this album. Yeah. And I mean, it's kind of like the Huberet Law. Like if Huberet Laws had come in and been doing all his stuff and they'd had him in the middle of the mix, it'd be like, why? Like, this is overrated to have. But like, that's hard to come into that tune that way, but to be additive without getting in the way. And maybe the string. And I love, I got to Hobs Orchestra here. Right. No, no, no, it's great.

Underrated. Okay, so underrated. Country music, R&B fusion. Okay. I've always thought this, correct me if I'm wrong, but that this is country. That sounds like country.

The wagon wheel. It's very country. The, what's the stuff? Tumbleweed. I mean, that's a killer groove. Sounds like Beyonce. Yeah. Really?

But just fusion music that's hip, right? Chuck Randy can play anything. So it's like. I'll tell you what's underrated is the fast two-beat feel. We don't get that in pop music anymore. That's right. But is that...

Maybe it's not a country group, but it sounds kind of country. That's definitely a country group. Yeah. Okay, what else is underrated? Can I do one here? Yeah, please. I'm going to weirdly say

Donnie Hathaway in general is underrated. Not by us. Not by us. Not today. I think he is by mainstream America. By a country mile. He is an underrated artist. I think he's like up there

with some of the greatest American American musicians who's ever lived, and I don't think he gets as many flowers as he deserves. I think he's more influential than people give him credit for, too. I think a lot of vocalists steal his shit. And like, I think he's got a lot of, a lot of things to claim from modern music. The connection from Donnie Hathaway to Luther Vandross is a direct line. Yeah. Like there's, that's absolutely. And really, even on Stevie, I mean, I know Stevie influence, there's influence back and forth, but I think because Donnie Hathaway didn't have a huge output, but that's the only thing that's kept him from being, you know, really, really widely known.

I mean, everybody who's heard and knows his music. And, of course, his biggest hit was with Roberta Flack, but years later right before he passed, you know. I think also Roberta Flack's piano playing is underrated. I think she's genius. I've been saying that for years. She's incredible. Totally agree. The only other thing underrated, more of an unknown, is John Coltrane's influence on that album.

I know that we did that. Are you bringing giant steps back into the picture here? But Eric Gale, the fantastic guitarist on here on here. on hill shout out on hill on country on hill up on here out of Brooklyn

bed stye shout out bedstai that is not country that is the opposite of country as the BBC would say that's urban but he when he was come up in high school

used to go to John Coltrane's home for after school snacks from John Coltrane's wife I'm not kidding Eric Gale used to hang with Coltrane yeah absolutely dang yeah so that's a little another influence on this. Okay, so how about some apex mountains, Peter? Well, man, I feel like we've been apex

mountaining, but I'm glad to jump in. Okay, so what we just listen to for all we know, is this the greatest version of that song? I think so. Yeah, this is the epic mountain for all we know, for sure. I mean, I remember hearing Shirley Horn do this live. I don't know if she recorded it. And that was, it's always different, though, like a memory of a live performance in a way can be a higher apex than anything on record. But then anything that you love on record, you have the benefit of listening to it over and living with it through different parts of your life. You know, like the music stays the same, but your attenuation to it increases your cultural and spiritual awareness of just the world and yourself and everything. So, I mean, beyond just this version holds up.

It's beyond that. I mean, this is one of the greatest standards, I think, ballads written. I mean, it's a beautiful composition and there's beautiful versions, but I don't think it gets any better than this. Is this the apex mountain? for covert giant steps changes. I am going to say no. Oh. Because we're talking about changes.

It's only three of them, too. Yeah, it doesn't go all the way through. Like, I would say, like, have you met Ms. Jones is more, because it actually goes through all three keys that Giant Steps goes through. And it was before Giant Steps. Let's talk about that another episode. I never knew that. So there you go.

We'll talk about that later. Okay. But this, yeah. Okay, let's move on. Okay. Now, this is going to, this is going to move. And I'm excited. I'm like, you know, mental note. Ask him about that. Okay, this will be, but this might get into hot takes and some controversies. You've got a friend, the beloved song.

We talked about- You already know how I feel about this. Yeah. Is this the Apex Mountain for that song? Yes. Okay. Well, then that's easy because I agree. Yes. I don't think this is, we could say, is this Apex Mountain for Carol Kings writing for other people? I don't think that's the case. I think Aretha Franklin is more incredible versions of Carol King songs. But I think, well, just because she didn't. You're going right into the hot takes version. I mean, Rhetha's version, a natural woman is incredible.

That's an amazing. There's no better fit of a vocalist with a song. Right, right, right, right. I think you've got a friend. This is definitely the best version. I think it's one of my favorite tracks of all time, but yeah. Best version of this. Yeah, I think, no question.

Okay, so I've got one for you. Yeah. Best use of the extended Mixilidian, best extended use of the Mixalidian scale in an R&B song in kind of a weird way. Let's check this. We listen this. This is the, you've lost that love and feeling, yeah.

G, Mixalidian scale. They stay on it. Bolivia? I said R&B song. But listen to that, little sitar. Is that Eric Gayle? Is this the Apex Mountain for a sitar and a pop song? Probably not.

Probably not. Even when Roberta comes in, no alterations. They're sitting on that G. And there's no... And even when she slides up, she's sliding up in all Mixalilidian. This is kind of a weird song. But they make it nice. Anyway, yeah, extended mix of ladies.

Is this the Apex Mountain for duo vocals? Is this when they peaked? I'm going to say no, only because the late 70s, early 80s, you got Kenny and Dolly, you got Martin, Martin, you got Marvin and Tammy. You got Martin and Short. You got Martin and Charlie, you know what I mean? Chris Christopherson and Barbara Streis. You got a lot of great duo tracks singles coming out in that time.

This is, but. Taylor Swift and Drake. Oh, that's later. Oh, God. But you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of... These are great, though. This is...

But it's not the... This is maybe my favorite of all of those. But I think Apex Mountain, as far as like, when did that peak? I think it was right around early 80s, probably. And maybe Tammy Terrell and Marvin Gaines, that's before this, though. Is it? That's great, too. That might be Apex Mountain for duo vocals.

Well, didn't Marvin do some duos too in the late 70s? Yeah. Oh, he did a bunch of great ones. Okay. What about... I got one for you. Apex Mountain for covert. This might be the apex.

Because Marvin and Tammy were right around this time. That was earlier. It was earlier, my friend. I'm putting a stake down in the muddy waters of Midtown saying, wow, it's raining hard out there. Good. Okay. I think we have an Apex Mountain for covert use at the beginning of an R&B or whatever, black American music, whatever style we're going to call this.

Very covert use of seven. We know Donnie loves seven. Oh, good. Check this out. two, three, this is Be Real Black for me. Four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. So you know what, why this is so effective. For any budding songwriters and composers out there, the reason why this works,

what is it? D7. It's because it's all based around the phrase, right? This phrase, like, it works with the melody perfectly. It's not, they're not cramming some kind of, like, weird time signature in for its own sake. It's because it's the right time signature for this particular phrase. But it could have been one, two, let's see, one, will you count for me, sir? One, two, three. It could have been, I'll do it the right way. But just like his, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

There's something about lopping off that beat that feels right with the phrase. You have a pause at the end of the phrase, right? There's an extension of, da-da. And that extra beat is maybe just a little too long for Donnie. And he's throwing you off. It just fits musically with the phrase, I think, perfectly. Good, good, good. Is this Peter, we did Apex Mountains.

What about Genesis is? Well, the quiet storm? Yeah, exactly. We got a quiet storm going on out here. I know. I mean, this is years before. officially that was titled. And of course, Quiet Storm is... It's a radio format. Yeah, and wasn't that Smokey Robinson? He actually had a song or an album

called... Quiet Storm? Yeah, that's what it was officially... But I mean, this is the beginning. I don't listen to the radio. No, it's gone. It's been gone that format. Man, Magic 108 had the greatest quiet storm back in the day. Yeah. I have a little family connection with the creation of the term and the actual... We'll talk about that another day. What are you talking about? I got some in-laws that are actually very involved with 10 minutes. Okay. We got 10 minutes to wrap this up, my friend. Anyway, yeah, I think this is the beginning of that, like, this would fit in with Quiet Storm. Actually,

they used to play this stuff off of here. Yeah, of course. For sure, you know, because that was part of the thing when, especially like the late 70s, early 80s. Like, they used to play like Sarah Vaughn on the hip Quiet Storm format radios. Like, they throw in, like, it was all about the vibe. I'm sure there's plenty of Spotify playlists

and, like, satellite radio channels, but what I wouldn't give for a Magic 101 Quiet Storm session. Maybe there's some on YouTube. I could check it up. Apex Mountain 4. Donnie Hathaway. I think it's a hot take, too. I think this time, 72,

might have been an Apex Mountain for Donnie. So album-wise, I'm going to say no. I'm going to say Donnie Hathaway Live, I think. It's just for Don't. When did that come out?

After this. I think it came out right before. Right around this time. That's what I'm saying. It's like this string. Right, but we're talking about the album. Well, we're talking about the time. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Maybe. Okay. Let's give us some awards. Okay. The Oscar Peterson Overplaying Award. We've talked about him. He's all over the place. He's filling in every space he can find. It's the great Chuck Rainey.

And he's doing it in such a tasteful way. This is perfect because it is named after Oscar Peterson. Same thing. On the, look, can we just play? I want to play a little bit of the... No, we don't have time for that. We do have a little bit of the Ella and Louis. Oh, he's all...

He's already over... This is the intro. He's allowed to overplay. So this is Oscar Peterson playing piano. You think that's a nice little solo? Well, don't worry. It's not over. I thought I'd found a man of my dreams.

He just solos through the whole thing. This is how the story ends. But it's good. He's going to turn me down and say, can't we be friends? His solo never stops. He's essentially, instead of just playing chords through it. Yeah, he's like, no. He's just going to solo.

He's like, I'm Oscar M.F. Peterson. And it works somehow. And I think this is appropriate for Chuck. because Chuck's kind of doing a little bit of this on the base. He's filling a lot of spaces. Where's the love? He's really doing a lot and it works. It works.

That's the key. John Coltrane theft award. So is it Roberta Flack on piano? Does she steal this on piano? I think so. I think so. Just because she, I mean, not for me, because I've been talking about it and I love her piano playing,

but I think she's a little under the radar for a lot of people. Does she steal this record on piano, though? Do we think that's the case? I don't know. Because, I mean, if you were talking about just, actually yeah I would say so I'm gonna like for what she does on for all

we know just that alone and then there's other little and you know mood the last tune which we're gonna listen to in just a second because that's like that's a stunning thing and it's Donnie and Roberta and it's it's no vocals I'll give you that the Cecil Taylor

taking that award I'm gonna give to Roberta Flack and I'm gonna give it on the first track right around the three minute mark so this is I Who Have Nothing Yeah Listen to that again.

And she sits on that, that half step. Yeah. And she does a bunch of little things vocally throughout this whole album that earns her the Cecil Taylor taking out of award because she's really, it's not just beautiful thirds and pentatonic harmonies that she's doing with Donnie. She's going for some really risky stuff

and it pays off. It's so good. Any first-call subs on this? Who you first call subbing? I like James Jamerson on the base. You put James Jamerson here. I think that's cool. It'd be different, but it'd be killing.

I mean, I think when you don't, about Roberta and Donnie, that gets a little stickier. I mean, Stevie Wonder, could he have done this with Roberta? Yes. Hear me out. Okay. Stevie and Joni. What if it was a Stevie and Joni?

No, I'm not. Okay, it wouldn't be as good. Yeah. I was thinking more like if you had, okay, so if Donnie's there, but Roberta's not, like, like, Aretha Franklin? That'd be, it would be so different. But see, like, that's what I'm saying is, like, the nice part is the mix between Donnie's incredible vocal abilities and Roberta's, like, you know, vulnerable, like,

expressive vocal quality. and I think Donnie and Aretha, it's kind of too much of like the same power. You know what I mean? Actually, I don't think you could sub be the one of those. But James Jamerson could work. There's other drummers. I would like to hear Ron Carter on this. I'm just saying.

Ron Carter, he could lay some stuff down. Yeah, for sure. Bespoke genre. What do you got? So I came up with Quiet Storm Aquarius. Nice. Because, you know, it is moving towards the Quiet Storm. You know, if it's not the Genesis, it's certainly a big influence on that genre.

and grown folks music and all that kind of stuff. I got Arn Breathe. The Citar, that's the Aquarius, Age of Aquarius kind of thing. Sorry. Arn Breathe. Arn Breathe. I like it. It just feels right.

R& Breathe. There's a lot of space in this. There's a lot of room to breathe. So, R& Breathe. Did we hit our hot takes and rants? Not yet. Ocuchamance, the album cover, is good. It's good.

Can you put back up there? Caleb, real quick. It's good. It's good. Yeah. It's fine. I like the image, the sort of roar shabre. image in the middle.

Yeah. It's beautiful, but it's not very memorable. No. You know what I mean? Yeah. So good. There's that. That was our most awkward segment ever.

Hot takes and rants. Okay, my hot take on this. Yeah. The intersection of classical jazz and gospel is some seriously fertile ground for pianists in particular. That's a real hot take here. Roberta and Donnie, like that's the main... You mean all the genres?

that piano sounds good on? Yeah, but I'm saying like there, Roberta and Donnie both have those influences. I'm not going to say in equal amounts, but in deep amounts. They're not like, Roberta's like, oh, I dabbled it. I mean, she came up in the church.

Yeah. But they both had classical training. They both had, I don't know how much, I know they both had jazz, you know, were around jazz influences for sure. But I mean, those three things, and other ones too, of course they had other influences. But when you get those in sort of like deep amounts,

I wouldn't say equal, but deep amounts. Good things happen. Hot take. My hot take. We need more duo records. I'm talking more Marvin and Tammy. I'm talking more Donnie and Roberta. I want some more Aaron Neville and Linda Ronstand.

I want some more Kenny and Dolly. I want it all. I want it all. I want some more Tom Petty and Stevie Nix. I want all of that. We're here for it. Jonathan Batiste and somebody. That could be a good place we could go.

Little J. Batten Yeba maybe. Yeah, something like that. Oh, the snobometer. Snobometer. Snobometer. what are we talking here? This I would put, we're going from one to ten, right?

10 is just... Yeah, we're just saying like, is it more on the stombometer? I think this is a very snobby record. Not for jazz snobs, but for music snobb. I agree. But this is one of that,

this is kind of, this record's really in the, you'll hear, the new wheelhouse of you'll hear. I agree. Records that you buy, oh, I had a great quote here, I'll just say from somebody, this is on the, on YouTube,

the version, the official version of this album, the top YouTube comment. YouTube comments, they can be great, or they can be horrible. This one's great. Bought this album when I was in high school,

wore it out. 50 years later, I'm still listening. No one since then has come close to the greatness of Hathaway is black. So hyperbole, but that's okay. You know, greatness being acknowledged, but I love that, like, wore it out, still listening. I think this is for music snobs more than it is

for a general population, only because, like, a lot of albums in 1972, actually, it's not super shiny. You know what I mean? It's not polished. Like, we listen to the Roy Harbour Grove album last week. Yep.

With this beautiful polished sound. Yep. You know, and this doesn't have that. This is, there's a lot of space. There's a lot of, we just heard Roberta doing some of those like weird stuff. Weird stuff going on. Those weird changes on, you've got. So we're going to say snobometer is going.

Yeah, yeah, it's more towards the snob angle. Okay. Is it better than kind of blue? I'd say equal. I'm going to say no, it's not. Okay. Okay. I'm going to say equal.

This is the kind of blue of early 70s R&B records. I think I like kind of blue better. than this album, but I do love this album. Why don't we play ourselves out with the final track, which is really a departure from everything. Some people may have never made it here, so this will be fun. This is mood,

which I believe was written by Donnie and Roberta. I might be wrong on that. I should have known that. But thank you, Adam. This was awesome, man. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, bro. So, until next time. You'll hear it.