You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Greatest Jazz Album of All Time?

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Adam and Peter jump head first into Jazz history with this episode. Enjoy this listen of John Coltrane's potential Magnum Opus "A Love Supreme". What effect did this record have on your musical journey?Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Yes. Today we're listening to an album that some people think is one of the great works of art of the 20th century. Other people think isn't even the greatest work of art for this artist in this year. Whoa. Yeah. We, of course, are listening to John Coltrane's, in my opinion, masterpiece, a love surprise. I'm out of Manus.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear at Podcast. And this is a very special day for us. It really is a very special day. We love to listen to the greatest albums of all time here at the You'll Hear It Podcasts. If you want to go on a deeper dive of anything we're talking about here, you can always go to open studio, jazz.com and check that out. Peter, it's Love Supreme Day. We've been toying with this, flirting with this album for years.

You've never really covered it. And I'm stoked, because this is one of my all-time favorite records. Peter, full disclosure for me, and I know you kind of know this already, but there was a period in my 20s. All right, picture this young Adam and his 20s. Doesn't really get haircuts. You know what I mean? He smokes a lot. He smokes a lot of Marlboro Reds.

Well, this was before we knew that that was not safe or healthy, right? No, we fully didn't. Okay, got it. We fully didn't care, though. I'm just back and I'm, I'm, what is back? I'm shooting darts left and right. Yeah. I would wake up every morning for about almost a year and listen to Love Supreme

and smoke Marble Reds and look at my window. All the way through? All the way through, both sides. I would have a cup of coffee. I would listen to Side One. One, smoke a cigarette, maybe two. Flip it over, get more coffee, smoke another cigarette, maybe three. Well, I mean, I think in terms of your musical health, what it did to elevate it, it probably canceled out those cigarettes.

Because this is, I mean, to listen to this album all the way through, which I know a lot of people do. And this is definitely one of those records that's rewarded from side one and then the break and then you come to side two. I mean, it's a masterpiece. And it's a, from beginning to end, it's a statement. It was constructed in that way. It comes across in that way. And so, I mean, in terms of, like, elevating your life and your health, I think it might have canceled out.

I mean, we're not recommended the youngans out there in their 20s to go pick up cigarette smoking and listen to that. No, it's not good for your heart health. It wasn't good for my heart health. Yeah, and we're going to do our classic scorecard for what makes this album great. Yes. It feels a little weird because, you know, this was Coltrane's love letter to God. Yeah.

And so it feels a little cheap to score it. But we're going to work through that. Right. And we're going to realize that this piece of paper here that we're scoring, it means nothing. No, and one of the categories is not spirituality. Because obviously this would be off the charts on that. Maybe it should be. Maybe it should be.

No, we're going to go just to review real quick, our 10 categories, because we have an updated one. We do. Yeah. We're ditching one for another. So number one is playing. Number two is vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Number three is compositions.

Four, sound. Five, sequence. Okay. Six cover art. Seven title. Eight lore. Yeah. And nine.

What was formerly known as the snobo meter slash Aunt Linda is now the stank face o meter. Big shout out to one of our listeners, a regular listeners that recommended this. And I think it makes sense. Like how much stank face ometer. Just how much stank face it gets? Isn't it just, do you like this album? Oh, kind of. Okay.

Yeah, but that's, I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. Well, but it's also like how much of a personal impact I think it has on you. And I want to talk a little bit about what makes an album. great what that means as well because that can mean like I think most people think outside of the jazz and maybe classical world oh I should say number 10 is it better than KOB

which is important that's going to be interesting the title of this is this better than KOB this album and this is something that has been debated before and I'm interested to see what we come up with and for that category we pitch KOB as a 9 because we want things to be better than KOB because we think things

could be and we've rated things better than KOB I have but think about it like when we say a great album most people would say what makes an album great, they would be like, the greatest album of all time, thriller. They might throw that out there. Because, well, I mean, no,

if you were to grab 10 people off the street, like, there's a guy right there, we could have grabbed him. What do you think of a thriller? No, if you say, what's the greatest album of all time? What would come up? Now I'm talking about jazz or whatever.

I think songs in the key of life for a lot of people. I think one of those early Bob Dylan records, maybe blow out of the tracks might come up for people. We're talking about very, very high selling records. chart toppers, if you will, right? Yeah.

So, yeah, and I'm saying that's what most people I think would be like, a great album is one that's sold a lot. What's a great serial? Let's go to poster, Kellogg's. Let's not go to some obscure, right? Yeah. Whereas, I think there's this assumption within jazz that... The lonely poets society?

Exactly, a little bit like a bespoke situation. But I do think it's important for us to at least delineate between the impact that these albums make on musicians, maybe versus the general public, the GP as we say yeah well speaking of impact do you remember just story time uh do you remember the first time you heard love supreme like do you because this to me was kind of enigmatic when i first heard it yes i didn't really understand what was happening i was scared of this album it's it was daunting yeah because it is like how are they doing that especially i think for us pianist particularly like mccoy tyner like what is mccoy doing yeah why can a human being do that like yeah what is happening here

And how can I do that? That was my first questions. And I had no pathway for that. I was like, I mean, I'll just try to hear it and try to figure it out. But man, it felt like a mountain to climb. Yeah, for sure. And I think an interesting thing is to think about like the, yeah, the impact that it makes on a musician. So a pianist that's thinking, oh my gosh, McCoy, Tyner, how is he interacting,

Elvin Joe, you know, all these kind of things versus a listener where it's just a visceral kind of, you know, rain shower on top of you of the music. And I wonder if this album has that same kind of impact, i.e., what makes it great, on people listening like a kind of blue. Whereas for musicians, that might be a little bit different. And it's not a right or wrong, but like which one is more important? You know, which makes an album greater? It's somebody who really...

It's what impacts you. Yeah. But it's like, you know, what does somebody that is a former or current professional basketball player who says, like, you know, actually the greatest player ever was not Michael Jordan. He's the most popular. Dominique Wilkins? Well, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's some of the taller and shortest. You're going there. But anyway, this is just a little fodder for us as we move forward. Let's get into listening to some of this. John Sutton? Yeah, you know what? Another one weird with

for me is I don't think this happens like this anymore. But because I grew up in the CD era of the 90s, the first John Coltrane CD I had was Giant Stuff. You're such a CD baby. I'm a CD baby. The first album I had from Train was Giant Steps, and I wore that one out, meaning that I got soda on it in my truck. So you heard that before you heard Love Supreme. I heard that one, and then I heard there's one with Train and Alice Coltrane live at the Village Vanguard that is like really out. Yeah, interesting.

Like, 1966 or eight or something. Okay. I forget what it's called. It's not interstellar space, but it's close to that thing, right? And I was like, I really didn't. I was way too young and dumb. Intrasteller space. Thank you. See, I don't even, I'm not even intelligent enough to understand it.

But that one, I was like, okay, I don't, I honestly don't understand this, and I don't know if I like it. And then I came to, I mean, before that, before even this was Coltrane Sound, which is another one of my all-time favorites. Great record. From John Coltrane. And then this, you know, came later when I got it on vinyl when I was in my 20s. And again, I think. think because I'd spent so much time with giant steps and Coltrane sounds specifically that this and oh I should I should point out to the Johnny Hartman John Coltrane and the Duke

Ellington John Coltrane I listened to those a lot too before I'd even heard love Supreme about Blue Train and Blue Train I'd heard Blue Train a lot but this is the thing here's and the kids are like why didn't you just listen to Love Supreme because I didn't ever see it at the record store that I was at like when I was a kid I just didn't either I didn't pay attention to it or I couldn't afford it because I had picked out the things that I thought I I like. And also, it wasn't like now where it's like you can see what's the most popular and what's the most and what has the most critical. Like if I wanted to look up what was the most critically acclaimed John Coltrane record, I would likely have to go to a library and look up that information or ask someone who knew. And I just, for whatever reason, that didn't happen. What a crazy thing to think about how things have changed in terms of how we're exposed to hearing something and then being able to make a judgment if we like that or want to hear more of it. Like the first John Coltrane, I'd actually heard some John Coltrane because my dad had some records

and there was something on that Smithsonian box that I definitely heard it growing up some. But the first record where I was like, let me go check it out was Crescent. Yep. On the recommendation of Wint Marcellus. Nice. He was just like, check out this record. I was like, oh.

But thinking back on it, I would have never picked up that record because there was nothing. There's no standards on it. There's no standards. That's such a big thing. And these, this is a little off-putting. Yeah.

Like knowledgement. And it's got like a religious overtone. So it's like, I'm not worthy. I know. When you're like 18 years old and you're just trying to learn the songbook, right? You're trying to learn jazz standards and things you can play with other people.

You're like, pursuance. Nobody plays pursuance. But nowadays, if you're come up and you're listening something that algorithmically Spotify or YouTube or whatever picks up on that you might like something like this, it will put it in there.

And people aren't looking at like who's playing on it. It's hard to even find that. And the name of the album. These damn kids. It got it so good. They don't even know how good they got it. I mean, is it? Yeah, we've talked about this before.

It's good and it's bad. I mean, we're doing it right now. We're telling them. Go listen to this album. So the other thing I was thinking about on this is it ended up kind of being a little bit of a demarcation point for me in John Coltrane. You're talking about to what I would have considered at the time like interstellar space and the later stuff, the scary John Coltrane stuff. This was like a line between the stuff that I knew. and I'd heard Coltrane, of course,

play with Thelonious Monk. I think even before I'd heard, like, Crescent. So I'd heard early Coltrane. Coltrane sounds for sure. Yeah. Johnny Hartman, like, and then the classic quartet, once I got into McCoy,

I was like, I loved all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was the beginning of like, oh, boy, he's really taking it out. And I don't mean just a half step up. And so this was sort of like almost the end of that era and the beginning of the next era, kind of serving for both.

And then, of course, 1950s, 65. This was recorded at 1964, at the end of 64, but came out at the beginning. December 64, released January 65. Yeah, which is crazy. What a turnaround for a classic record. We couldn't do that today, although we're going to try next episode. That's right.

That's right. But, you know, 65, 66, 67, and he passed in 67, way too early prematurely, was a huge output, but he went, now I don't want to say off the rails. He just went in another direction that's amazing, too, but very different from this record and before. Yeah, it's a shame he passed away so young. say that about so many of our favorite musicians because it would have been great to see where he would have gone, you know, as an older musician, just speaking as someone who's now older than he was

when he passed away by several years. Like, so much happens during the stage of life that I want to hear his commentary on, you know, I mean, think about what we've gotten from people like, I don't know why he just came to mind, but like Pat Mathini's output later in life has been incredible, like people like that, you know what I mean? Ron Carter. Ron Carter's output, Herbie Hancock, thank you. Wayne Wayne Shorter's later output, Amantamol, just kept making great records, and it would have been awesome to hear. But, okay, let's listen to some music, Peter. Let's listen to part one acknowledgement.

And again, will we be specifically listening for playing by any chance? Yeah, so that's our first category. We'll try to consolidate playing vibe and maybe even compositions, but we'll see how we go here. So this is, of course, John Coltrane on the tenor saxophone, McCoy Tyner on the piano, Jimmy Garrison on the bass and Elvin Jones on the drums. This is A Love Supreme, Part One, Acknowledgement. Oh, Elton. Man, he's driving this bus, this whole record.

Oh, wait, no, McCoy's driving the bus. Sorry, isn't it? Oh. My man, bold. Bold and beautiful. It's the soundtrack to that great soap opera, the bold and beautiful. That would be so weird. If this was a soundtrack to the bowl.

But it is bold and beautiful. They burn. Turning out, what we say? Improvising over just one chord. Yeah. Sound. Oh. I mean, for me, the difference between this and another quote-unquote modal album is this is more,

I mean, this feels African. Like, this is, this has that vibe of, this is not of all of this place. You know what I mean? Yeah. It has that feeling, you know, that it's. just can't deny. Yeah, I mean, to call it exploratory is obvious, but it's exploratory 100% committed.

Like, the way train is improvising, it's like there's no self-awareness, there's just, like, commitment to the music to where it's going to go to continuing on. Integrity, of course, you know, but very stripped down harmonically. I mean, it's one chord, but then melodically, the places

that it takes it harmonically or like off the charge you know that's where the exploration's going the rhythmic exploration oh they're creating it as they play i think this could have only been done in one session a record i mean it's completely yeah it's like the way mccord brought that back it's like it's just on this other plane than something like kind of blue like it's coming from a different place yeah it's not this like trying to be hip or french thing you know what I mean it's a little bit deeper you know what I'm saying

okay let's see where we're going for number 10 for you and from a piano standpoint this is some of the best most advanced comping that's ever been done truly in the sense

of working like a company like he's not chasing anything the train is doing but he's complimenting beautifully the conversation with Elvin Jimmy Garrison I mean like they're really committed

to creating a piece of art in real time Yeah. Yeah, it's way beyond mobile playing. I think somebody can think it is because it was one chord. There's, yeah. I mean, they play harmonic, you know, modes. And when you put it in the context of the time,

1964, when this was made, 65, when it was released. So, tumultuous time in the U.S. This is a cultural, like, train planting a cultural flag, which is a lot of people we're doing around this time. Yeah. Like, which would have not been okay with a lot of people at this time. Yeah. Obviously that's the melody.

You know, would be five minutes into the tune? The tune. Hey, let's play acknowledgement. Ready? One, two. And I mean, Jimmy Garrison's job is potentially the most difficult to pull things down, but to play things that are interesting for the overall collective composition. It's just masterful of what he's doing.

He kind of gets a masterful there. Yeah. I mean, Coltrane went on that journey with that riff, with that melody. and now he's back here. Nobody, by the way. It's a mantra, right? It's a chant. Yeah.

As we'll hear. From that F to the E flat. And from where they started on movie. That's incredible. This time period, if you think about this time period, and I know it gets talked about a lot, but to have Elvin and Tony, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams,

young and making albums in this, you know, four or five years stretch one with miles one with train it's like such a gift to the world man okay what changed drumming both what elvin just absolutely just did dancing on that symbol he's still doing it but what he uh even just that symbol ringing out jimmy garrison that's a great bass sound all right can we pause for a second here yeah okay so i i love how this is on the lp going straight in it's like it's just one side. And that's the way I first heard it anyway. So I mean, it's, it goes seamlessly in. But I just want to say like the way that it starts like over this open E like just fists and

force, you know. And like a gong style. Yeah, there's an actual gong. I mean, it's a call the prayer. It's a call to prayer. And choosing E and all the things you got the open E on the base and just like what that sound and where it ends on that E flat. Like this is very simple. Like I, was saying I feel like, I mean, I don't feel like you could feel it from the record every time you hear it. It's like it just happened, right? 1964, it's like what is that? 60 years ago?

Yeah. You know, but it's like it was recorded this morning. This morning, it feels like that. And they created the composition, but the structure of it, and I would say this is something maybe similar to kind of blue in that you go into the studio with a great group of players,

a fantastic rhythm section, horn players that both contrasts each other, but also are amazing. Obviously, this is maybe even a greater, like, you know, it's a quartet. Yeah. They've done a bunch of playing together. They're locked in. Yeah.

For a couple of years now. Right. And then you have a very basic template for what the composition is going to be, in this case, acknowledgement, the first one, where it's basically just harmonically three things. E, F, and E flat, all half step apart. But the order of those. So it's like, oh, any kid could come up with that, right? and then the trust to give the group and then just one

or just one melodic idea that's introduced into that that's the composition and then a lyric of course which is highly unusual for an instrumental jazz record but like that's it and then they came up with that already it's like mind mind blown but I think that that is maybe a similarity with kind of blue and that you came like like flamenco sketches is just the five chords you know

But there's something about this record in particular where, and again, not to over compare it to kind of blue, two different albums. Actually, years and years apart, too, by the way. Which is better. Well, we'll talk about that. But I think just the heavier subject matter of this, like this was obviously a spiritual statement by train. And like I said, I think it's a real cultural flag from Train, too, of this entire era. actually is like, we're going to play this music that is not really understandable by a huge chunk of people.

Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? It's not like ring a ding ding thing style, you know, Sinatra tunes or whatever that some people around this time are playing, which is fine. Right. We need different things. We need different things. We need appetizers.

We need main course. We need dessert. But this kind of album takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of confidence and it takes an incredible artistic vision. I said it's bold and beautiful. And courageous. You said it all. You've said it all.

So also, this is the thing, well, yeah. And even like we talk about kind of blue, and I love like some of the comments of, you know, kind of our analysis, which is overstating it, you know, just talking about how impactful that record was to just general listeners. And they're saying like, look at all the mileses

over the years that were, you know, babies named Miles. Yeah. Wink, wink, a romantic record, whatever. Like, this is not that kind of record. No. You know, this is a beautiful, right? I'm talking about Love Supreme. Yeah.

This is not. like a record that babies are going to be named after, you know, necessarily, I don't think. Or even babies being made during this record, listening to this record? I don't know. It's not really about that, is it? That should be one of our categories. Yeah. No, but I mean, we're beating around the bush a little bit.

But that's what I'm saying, like, how do we even say is something great or not? Because those are two different, those are both, these are both records we need. No, no, yeah, of course. Culture is about different things. But that's what I'm saying. We're beating around the bush, but this is really, I'm really talking about race here. Like this album Love Supreme is not, you know, white musicians are probably not able to make this album at this time. It's not culturally part of their DNA to do at this time to do this thing, right?

Yeah. And I think that's what makes this kind of such a powerful prayer and such an incredible cultural flag from train. Yes. Not to make too big a deal out of it, but I think that is a huge part of this album. And at that specific time, this incredible movement of musicians led by train. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, who's to say, you know, whether or not Train, John Coltrane was actively thinking

about that or making that statement. That's kind of immaterial. He made that statement. Yeah. You know what I mean? He came with that authentic leadership to create this thing and to create this playground, this sandbox for these four musicians in the studio. to create this and obviously gave in a huge amount of license and space for all of these musicians

to contribute. I mean, you can hear that from the very beginning, you know. I mean, not to say that he might have said, why don't we start with the gong? Who knows? It doesn't matter. Like, the humanity of everybody's contribution is so like intermingled and integral to what was created. And it's part of the exciting thing of listening to something like this is to kind of imagine. And like sometimes I feel like we have too much information. when somebody says, I created this because this, and I wanted to be this. That's, of course, interesting.

But when you get to the level of a record like a Love Supreme, like that's up for you to get your, not even your interpretation, like your meaning, like from when you, like, and what you come up with it. And me forget that, for everybody to get that. That's what a great piece of art is.

It's not supposed to be reading the little thing that tells you what you're supposed to feel. It's like, what do you feel from this? And if nothing else, this record, and I think all great records, makes you feel deeply. I mean, like, you listen to this record. If you sit down and listen to this,

and this is not like, I like jazz, I don't like jazz, I like funky jazz, I like swinging, ring and dingy jazz. It doesn't matter. Like, listen to this. You will feel more human

after listening to this, I say. You will feel, you may not love it. You may not, everyone want to listen to again. You may love it off the charts. You may be like,

oh, that was okay. I mean, look, it would be hard to, like, have this in a coffee house playing parts of it. You know, parts of it will be perfect. But when they start, oh, love supreme. Like, if you're not in the right space for that

and you haven't listened to what came before that, that might get in the way of your oat milk, Frappuccino. So, okay, and again, this feels a little cheap. But Peter, playing. What do you got? Well, I got 10. I also have.

But, no, but I mean. I also have 10. Yeah. Really? Vibe, I have 10. What about spirituality? What do you have? I have 11.

Because I really felt a spiritual vibe on this. Vibe. Vibe is a bit of spirituality, for sure. And I have, yes, I have 10 for that. I mean, yeah, the vibe is, I think that even if you didn't like the vibe of this record, it would still be 10. Because it has like probably the strongest. It's incredible. So think about this.

If you say, tell a drummer, give me that pointian groove. It's as much about give me that vibe, right? Or if you're like, give me that vibe, right? Or if you're like, give me that love supreme, like, give me that love supreme vibe on this. That says a lot. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I don't see how it could be anything but 10.

Okay. I love it. How far down have you gone? I mean, I'm pretty much done with my ratings, but I still want to listen to this album. Can we listen to Resolution? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's check out Resolution. This is the next track. And it's, I'm actually going to back it up to the end of acknowledgement because they do. The transition. The transition is killing. Ends with bass. Acknowledgement starts with bass resolution. That's the last chord of the first track.

and then these came in I'm here for it so good man this is one of the deepest grooves a drummer's ever played on a record

that I've heard this is like the OG backbeat right here wow Trang can really take it out well did you ever play this five versus one

I used to play this in Willie Aiken's man this is one of Willie's mainstays this is kind of the only tune on this album I feel like yeah it gets played a lot

You can call it. You can call it a gym session. So good through here. Notice what Elvin does through here. Swings. Yeah. Swings his ass off. But he pulls it back a little bit.

Man, he's like, he's in control. Like the architecture of this album? Man, I'm telling you, like to... It's this shit grooves. Was McCoy the youngest member of this band? Routa 2-2. What'd you say? Yeah, McCoy was the youngest member of this.

He's descending dominance. Is that part of the change? We don't know. We love it. It's only 26 here, McCoy. I mean, how much has this been stolen? By me. Our new stank fac-o meter is going to be off the charts.

Oh, my gosh. A clinic in left-hand copy. Man, he's like just flurries in the way he's... That combined with Elvin's, like, dancing on that ride symbol and that sound of that zilgin. Oh. floating, but the groove is still there. It's all kind of burnout playing just over E-flat.

I mean, it's still playing the form, but harmonically, they go wherever they want. And for all you pianists out there, notice how McCoy really switches up textures, chords, single-note lines, like he's not just doing the same thing again and again and again. Right. Train comes in interrupting in all the right ways.

Oh. I mean, Elvin is on the verge just being like, Ah. Look dancing. You mean like you're, this is like church music, like you said. Like you get up and do church dance in the middle of this. Hey. Man, their approach to harmony is so fluid and courageous and exploratory.

And just fun, you know? I think Brian Blade ever got a chance to hear this period of Elvin Jones. All that stuff, man. Everything. Any pianist listening, if you want to learn how to comp. Yeah. For this kind of like portal playing. a solo, McCoy Tyner on these records.

Love Supreme, Crescent, and then, of course, like, all of his records from this time, which I think we're on Impulse as well, were they? McCoy was on Impulse during this period, too, right? Yeah, so good for this. Reaching 4ths. But I think right around here he did his blue-nosed, Real McCoy.

65, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, 67, maybe. Reaching up, reaching up. Yeah, Real McCoy is 67, a couple years later. I don't think Coltron had to be like, head out, head out, guys. He just rolled right up into it. No, no, he did.

Oh, there's so many. Take it, take it! Oh, the way this ends is so. So blues, just blues. Boo-ah! Man, just the confidence of, like, ending Garrison. Man, I mean, it's like, it's really collective improvise. It really goes back to the beginnings of jazz, blues, like the roots, the origins.

There's like a primal connection to the ancestors. You can feel. 100%. Just a visceral. But, I mean, like, like, it's such a seamless and organic way to connect blues and playing out and modal and, like, fourth stuff. And, like, very advanced. And even, like, some rock and stuff in there. Run through the prison.

of the mid-1960s. And everything that was happening culturally and about to happen, you could feel these tensions here in this album all through it. It's almost like some Jimmy Hendricks in there. For sure. And then run through the prism of John Coltrane,

obviously like coming out of a spiritual awakening period, you know what I mean, and wanting to make something recognizing that. And this is what happens. Like when a genius figures this stuff out, we get Love Supreme. Man, it's a masterpiece. I mean, it is like a genius that, like, is, like, handing the world a piece of art.

And then what's great about it, too, is a human being that gets handed that work of art. It's like, the more season do you get, the more life you live, the more of your, down the sort of spiritual path or whatever it is that you, whatever journey you're on, maybe it's hedonistic. Whatever. No judgment. But there's hedonism in the, I mean, like, the way element, the way they're playing is like, oh, man. It's everything. And but you, this, listening now to it today, Peter, with you and Caleb here too, is like even deeper for me than it was when I was in my 20s smoking cigarettes and thinking about the individual I wanted to become. And now it's like, this is directing me, pointing me even further past those sort of like, you know, fairly small, small expectations that we put on ourselves when we're younger.

Man, it's just, yeah. And to think that like this really, like the, thank you for the. those words. And the way I'm feeling about it is it's that same deep connection. But yes, I think great art elevates us at any point we are in our life. And like connects us in a way. And I think that my realization upon this listening today, it's like this is such a collective thing. Yes, it's a John Coltrane record. And it's his vision. But I'm just reminded of like these subtle connections. Like had they not had that, I mean, they're all amazing musicians. You can hear them on different records. That's obviously.

They're masters of their instruments technically and virtuosos and all that. But also they're all individually very innovative. But they come together on a level of innovation that's kind of off the charts on this with like that collective improvisation. And I think, yeah, it's like the serendipity of them coming together on this day and everything. Or is it like what everything led up to this and beyond? You know, who's to say? But it's truly a masterpiece.

With that said, the sound is an eight for me. Wait, do we do compositions? We have the compositions are a 10 And you might be thinking Well, there's not much to these compositions But try to write a melody like that last melody Like try to write something as simple We'll be doing that in the next episode

We will and we will probably not get anywhere close To how brilliant The melodies on this are And the idea too Like this is one of those pieces of art Where it's like Like if like my son We were, he went to some

Where did you go? We went to some contemporary art No, my daughter went to the contemporary art museum. And then some of the stuff, she was like, well, I could have done that. And it's like, you know, the first thing my wife always says, which is I love. They do it. Yeah, well, you didn't think of, you didn't think to do that, did you? And it's the same thing here.

You could say, well, there's one chord. I could do that. It's like, well, you didn't do it. Right. You didn't do it in this way with this kind of sound. Of course. And that's where the parents, man. Thank you.

That's true. That's where the art is. That's where the artist lives is what is happening before, what's about to happen. and where does the artist comment on that? And this is part of that comment. So compositions, I have a 10. Well, and I would say, you know, to your last point, too, also this simpler the art is, in this case,

the compositions as they should be when they're great, it's the execution of them. And that's why I struggle a little bit. I'm going compositions nine. He said, oh, okay. You've got a little drama in the, only because unless we're going to include the collective improvisation,

the collective contributions of all of the musicians as part of the compositions, which there's an argument for that. I'm kind of making that argument. In that case, I would go 10. But if you just say the compositions, they're amazing, but what really makes this album great in terms of,

and I think super innovative, and it's really built upon the foundation of the innovation of jazz in general since the beginning of it. I think what makes it such a wonderful thing is that collective improvisation becomes a part of the compositions. So it's not,

just the execution of what's there on the paper. It's like, what is it going to become? And this is a fair debate because you could make the argument that no, a composition needs to be able, like a, I think a composer's composer would probably say, well, it depends, really. But I think some composers would say, no, a composition is something that gets put down and should be able to be made good by anybody. Right. However, I think you could also make an argument, and I would make the argument for this album, a great composition is something that's written for the act of, in this case, making a record with specific musicians. And I think John Coltrane cannot attend it as far as like, what are the sketches that I

could give McCoy and Jimmy and Elvin. The framework. The framework. To make a great piece of art. Similarly, again, back to K-O-B, similar to Miles with that album. And what are the things that I can let loose on these incredible musicians that they will take and elevate and- Kind of like, it's like the end result is what's being kept in mind?

It's like, what is the art? Is the art, the compositions on the page, or is the final piece of art, the album? Could these guys play some kind of intricate Brecker Brothers, some skunk-funk kind of thing? Probably, would it be, in this case, as impactful or not as even as impactful, but would it achieve the results that a love Supreme does as far as its sort of prayer to God aspect? Right. No. Right. You know, and this framework does do that.

And it holds, again, those cultural things that I think train is planting in the ground. the one chord collective improvisation, which is something that is... Blues. Blues. Yeah. You know, like these things that are the roots of the music. Right. Doesn't happen in other contexts.

Absolutely. And so, actually, I'm going to stand by my nine then because of that. And so... Okay, that's on you. Yeah. Okay. So for sound, I have eight because of the Van Gelder piano. That's really it.

I have nine because it's like, I love the way this record sounds. Yes, I'm not crazy about that sound, but upon listening to it. It's not distracting. It's not, it's just, it just is what it is. It's not totally, like there's so many worse piano sounds. They're really, you're right.

It's not like everything's killing. And the drum sound is so great. Yeah, you're right. I'm going nine. And they train, you know. I've noticed something, Peter. Every single one of these things we made, there's at least one category where you talk me up.

Right, and then same for you. I'm almost going to compensate. I'm like, because going back to, you know what, I'm going to channel the compositions. No, because now I'm thinking about, like, there's nothing for this record. Yeah. And that's what we're judging. We're saying what makes it out.

There's nothing that could have been better about the comedy. It's not like, yeah, they're good, but if only... If only you would have done more. You know? Yeah. And because this is a jazz record, the collective improvisation that comes out of that framework that is the composition is part of the composition. Yeah.

Like, that's the whole point of the thing. And that's a part of the music. It always has been. Let's check out the first track on Side B, Persuette. Side two. Yeah, the drums sound incredible. Yeah. I mean, the bass, yeah, the drums are, it's pretty extraordinary.

What he's playing and how they sound. I mean, it's like, oh. Dude, how incredible would it be to see this band live? Would have been. Well, there's a live recording, you know, there's a live recording of them playing this. But I mean, to be in a room with these four people in a small club would have been. Yeah, and I mean, I got a chance to hear, I know you heard, you heard McCoy live, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Got a chance for me. many times in here and Elvin quite a few times. Jimmy Garrison never, trained never before I was born. Oh, man, the way they slide in there. This is the way to start the second side of an album too. Of course, melodically, the melody, the theme of this of pursuance, this piano, so, oh, it's incredible.

Very connected with part one, acknowledgement melodically. Oh. This is when McCoy got into full master of his McCoy ship. He really has this McCoy's down. He's better than everybody. At the McCoy ship. Man, his, yeah, of course. Like stuff like, but do, do, be, d'idoo, d'id, dig.

Like, his rhythmic concept, such a big part of, like, his influence. Chick Korea, very influenced by McCoy, Tyner. McCoy's, like, the architecture of his solo, the way the melody and harmony and rhythm, like, the way he thinks about all those things is so interesting. interesting. Like you can almost feel him thinking as he's going by what he played, you know, the development of it. Your journey. And again, change of pitches all over the place. It's not just like these. No, right. Right.

Yeah, it's not all that. And this is a deeply funky record. Like, the way they're playing is very like, I just wish. Left hand is so loud because of the EQ on the piano. And then mics shoved in the apple. Right. In the. middle. It's a very clear side. It's very focused and clear. Elvin, get thin. I know, but Elvin is a badass sound. Ooh!

Eighth note execution. Ever heard of it? Tag. The expansion, the opening. Space. We're going to the moon in a couple of years. You better get ready. They're already there. JFK says it's going to happen before the end of the decade. Man, man. Come up, coming at the apex. The train is one of the only ones that can really pull up. The only was it could really pull that off.

And then stay there. Oh. Man, train was deeply rhythmic, too, with his lines. A lot of times we think, because he would go out of time. But when he's in time, man, he is like, he will be who for. I mean, Michael Brecker's super influenced, obviously, by, he had that thing. You can feel it from Tray. Joshua Redmond.

Yeah, I remember. Every saxophone player, actually. I think it was, I'm going to paraphrase, but I think it was great tender saxophone Seamus Blake? You know, Shames? I think I heard him say once, like, there's a kind of a period

every young tenor player goes through where they just tried to, or a lot of young tenor players where they emulate train exclusively, and then there's a period

of your growth where you have to let go that it's never going to happen. I'm not worthy. I can't do it. Well, no, I can see that. I can totally see that. I mean, it's the same thing.

To find who you are. Yeah. It's like, you have to. Same thing, I think, for us with, McCoy and Herbie. Yeah, his rhythm, his rhythmic attenuation is like creepy great. And that's what I'm saying.

He's so seamlessly goes out of time. Man, it's just like way, it's like a hurricane, but like, but it's not killing you. It's lifting you up. I want to go to a coffee shop that plays this. And they just like fall apart right on time. Break it down. Break it down.

You know what strikes me listening to this today is like, having made a bunch of records and having had more experience making music and having a career, like this album is earned through many, many years of work as an artist and as a band. To be this pure with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that's not just youthful fire. This is like earned over a process of like, giant,

Giant steps is youthful fire. Right. That's youthful fire, right? This is like some wisdom of what to cut out. Yeah. Which only happens with a lot of experience. Yeah. This is an artist who's cut through a lot of bullshit to find this, you know.

Yeah, the bullshit o meter is zero on this record. And harkening back to that, really the theme of the record. Let's not make that a category ever. No, when we throw it, but, you know. And it sets it up where Jimmy Garrison can stretch out and create something like this. Like you want, like, it's like the calm in between the beautiful storm. It's a story, man. The way that Train uses these bass interludes as orchestration.

Yeah. Because. And the way we're talking over the space, though, it's just so great. We're going to get comments about that for sure. But just to point out that, like, those blistering high highs are only so high because we get plenty of these. Right. Right. That's what I mean. It's the story. It's like, if everything is great, well, everything is great on this. But if everything is here and then...

Yeah, if it's all just here, then it's all just mid, right? But because we get these... All the dynamic range on this record, the emotional and spiritual dynamic range. Which is crazy because it's like harmonically, it's very... Dude. But listen to what he's doing. There's three bass players. There's many, many more of it. Three to jump out. Ruben Rogers. Chris Thomas.

and Reginald Field, deeply influenced by this, like, and having played with all, with open solos, you know. Jim and Garendhianz's the McCoy-Tiner bassist. And Christian McBride, too. I mean, the Ray Brown influence is much more recognizable, but a deep connection with this type of playing as well, Christian is. So, Peter, we're about to transition in, and we should roll right into part four, which is the song.

So interesting note for people. No, let's let it roll right in. We'll talk after the song. A little rich roll on it. But if you have the original liner notes, so you could look this up too, the psalm is a text that Train actually wrote. And he plays,

improvises using the text. So you can, I've done this many times. You can, like, sing with him. Right. As he's, you know, you can, like, read the text and hear what he's playing. What each syllable is that, yeah. And he's such a master of phraser

that it's actually very obvious. It sounds like an or a or a word. speaking. Thankfully, we will not be doing that live. No. No, thank you. Something to note too about Psalm is the whole thing is this free, open

rubato flowing thing. Hallmark of this band. Maybe the greatest ever at this. I mean, it's all over Crescent as well. Right. And they weren't the first to do it, but they were the ones that like kind of... The rumbling, the rumbling

flowing flowing rovado. is unparalleled. Elvin's mall at work, I mean, so influential, so beautiful, so compositionally. I love when trained, obviously, his playing is always lyrical,

specifically here, it's specifically lyrical. But his tone, like when he's, his control with a vibrato, he's not a heavy vibrato player, but he uses some and goes in and out of it. You get to hear that and how that affects the, The lyricism, man, such a master bat.

Scoops up and those major, minor, sevens, back and forth, up, and then. I think he knew the melodic ascending in, descending. And the whole thing is a setup, as we'll hear in a minute, for maybe one of the greatest payoff chords in all of music. Yeah. The whole record, the whole record is a setup for one chord. Yeah. Yeah, I could argue, I mean, I would have no argument with anyone having different scores on everything on here except sequence.

Sequence is perfect. There's, there's, I, you, I will battle you with, with, uh, weapons if you think it's lower than attack. Couldn't, couldn't. Playing, maybe it's actually, well, yeah, it's just, no, sequence is perfection. Is it Tiffany. I never knew that. Was it timid?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought that was this Tom's. No, no, no. I was like, why, he's got an imperfect course. It sounds dope, too. Yeah. Leading tone. I encourage you to read this text as you listen to this, uh, listener.

You have it. Such a good payoff. Yeah. And just spontaneously created. That's the, you know, amazing thing about that. Like all the, like, it's weird to call something perfect. But this is a perfect record in that, like, anything that was, okay, maybe not the way the piano was recorded. I'm saying the what the music on it, the journey, what we just heard.

Yeah. Like there's, there's so much that was spontaneous. created like you can just feel the commitment everybody had to the moment to create like it's a very humble record yeah but it's very masterful at the same time so it's so service oriented it's just like i'm going to be the vessel and this is there's four movements there's one experience we're going to lay it all on the line it's not like i didn't like the way i sounded can i overdub my part did you imagine that stupid shit that i've not in the studio before it didn't you can fix me see no i mean that was like the timpany little like all the little subtleties they're so natural and purposeful

but humble. Yep. You know, and it just creates something that I don't know how you could say like, it was really good,

but there's a couple places I would have, like the way they play in that last movement, there's, it's very difficult to maintain, like it's very simple in a way

because it's just playing over one sort of harmonic area, so you have a lot of, like it's almost like you can't mess it up. Yeah. But to be able to maintain well,

the intent, the musical intensity. You really could mess it up. Of course. I mean, I mean, just no one needs, no one needs to cover this.

record you know what I mean no no although it's been done I mean and that's interesting I guess it's oh yeah you know didn't um vocalist covered it like written wrote words to all the solos I think yeah there's Kurt Elling maybe I don't know yeah I don't know but I just don't think it's it's it's a difficult like it's a moment yeah it is a moment and all the things like we mentioned that bring you back to like you feeling like you're in the studio especially if you listen to this record you sit and listen you know, if you take the time to sit and listen for this whatever 30, it's not that long of a record

32, 33 minutes or something, the two sides. But it feels like, you know, this, it's like an epic journey. We've just been on a journey. We just went around the world. I can saw all, every human, you know what I mean? And the human experience. So it's really, um.

So let's finish our list here, Peter and go back to something a little. Sorry. Yeah. My heart's beating. No, man. Well, this is so, first of all, I just want to. I forgot how much I love this record. Well, I was going to say,

I hear you talk about Crescent all the time. Yeah. I don't hear you talk about loves. This is great. No, this is better. It's not better. It's more important. I've just typed on it that you are appreciating it so much.

And full disclosure, we were to talk before. I was like, did I even say this is not my favorite train record? You said this is not my favorite. I'm not sure if that's even my favorite. That's what you said. I still not sure. But I think this is one of the most important records ever made. Folks, you heard it here first.

I don't know what that means. I love it so much. I love it, man. No, I agree. I agree with you. I just think the fact that, like, it's not something that can be played in a coffee shop. You know what? There is a jazz coffee shop that's going to be played it.

I've been to a couple places in Japan. Okay. I wish I remember the one name. It's probably closed now. I went there like 25 years ago when I first went to Japan. And it was like, this is a jazz coffee shop. I was like this is before, like, Starbucks was selling Nora Jones albums and stuff. Like, not that kind of coffee shop.

Yeah. This was a coffee shop. And when you get in there, there's just a. bunch of albums. There's this incredible high-fi system like a Morant's amplifier and a separate, and there's just a couple people sitting there with a cup of coffee, like solitary and this incredible music playing

loud AF. Good. Yes. Yeah. But like you go there and sit and then you listen to a whole album and then you can choose the next one. And then maybe the next person. It's just like a place and like you're in Tokyo, but you feel like you could be anywhere in the world like in this little, no windows or anything. You know how many places? This could be played in that jazz Here's why Tokyo rules, because there's so many places like that in Tokyo where it's just like, you feel like, you know you're in Tokyo, but you feel like you're in a different world. There's so many. And it was like $10 at the time, 20 years ago, which would be like $20 now to get a cup of coffee, which people, which was great because that filters out of anyone that's just coming for the coffee. We should mention if you're just to listen to a great album all the way through for $10, that's a good deal. If you're a jazz fan, Tokyo is not a bad spot to go as a tourist. Because there's a lot of great music happening all over that city from visiting artists, obviously, but also locals.

It's one of the top. And then record stores, cafes, as you mentioned, venues. Shout out Tokyo. Okay, let's finish our... Sequence we got. Sequence we got. Cover it, I have a 10, because I love... I don't know if you can put the picture up,

but I love the expression on Train's face. I love the composition of the photo. And then the fact, too, that they published the text that Train was improvising, was speaking through his horn on the part four. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the cover art, but got you. Yeah, but that's part of it. of it for me i love the font i love the slash john coltrane the entire thing i even like that little white in the left hand corner that's kind of cut off a little bit kind of like right oh yeah yeah yeah that's

maybe someone's shoulder or something yeah yeah the whole thing is is paparazzi right yeah exactly it's just beautiful though it's a beautiful shot it's a beautiful profile the negative space that they use around train's head like it's not just all trains head i believe this was photographed by Bob Teal or Bob Theel, why do I not know? Is that his name, the producer? I believe he took this picture as well at the studio. Cool. I can't find it now, but I believe that's the case.

I give it a nine because I think it's really, really good, but it's not the greatest album cover ever. I'm going 10. Title, I'm going 10 because The Love Supreme is a beautiful title for an album. That's 10 out of 10. You're not going to argue me on the cover art? No, I had nine here for a while, but the more I look at it, the more I like it.

Lore, I have a 10. I have a 10 too. Yeah, because of the cultural impact of the album, because of all the things we've already mentioned, you know, about these four young musicians, planning this cultural flag, giving us an idea of what music could do in a way that is unapologetic to their place in time

is a 10 out of 10. And then the after lore in terms of like, you know, Jimmy Hendrix, Carlos Santana, all the album, people that are like outside, of jazz that were like this is the greatest you know we pray to this album the fact that what we just heard this love letter to god from a genius has gone platinum right right that's incredible if you think about it so platinum perhaps i may be but it's sold over a million copies which is unbelievable and uh is a real testament to the attraction i mean there's other great desert album you make good music

people like good music right and of course this is on many desert island lists in terms of if you were stuck but if you think about actually see most people they just talk about Oh, these are the greatest album, the Desert Island album. But if you actually think about being stuck on a desert island with one record, this might be the one to have because it's got the music, it's got the spiritual connection. Yeah. The prayer element of it.

It's got the connection with humanity, which you certainly would need if you're stuck on an island. Fireworks. Right. It's not really beach music. It's not like Jimmy Buffett, but that's the only thing. It doesn't have, I guess. Okay. So now our next category, we are changing.

It has been Snobometer where we pit Aunt Linda, your aunt that doesn't know anything about jazz with Ethan Iverson, your prototypical. Why you still talk about that? We're not even doing it anymore. We are now changing it based on Ethan and Linda. Based on a user request to the stank faceometer.

And that really gives us an idea of how much stank face this album has elicited. I have a 10 out of 10 stank face. We were stank in chase. When you were smoking to Marlboro Reds listening to Love Supreme in your early 20s dreaming of being a jazz musician, did you ever think you would be on a

podcast with another St. Louis pianist using the word stank face o meter. Dude, if you would have told me that I would have been sitting next to Peter Martin listening to this in front of an audience talking about stank face, first of all, I would be like, what's a podcast? But no, no, no, it's crazy. It's crazy how life twists and turns. So now, is this stank face ometer like how much we go woo? or is it

Wu? Is a Wu the same as Stank Face? I think it's a little different. It's a little different but it's in the same ballpark. Yeah, same ballpark. Yeah. I give it a 10. Me too. Because I'm in constant stank face on this record. Constant Is it better than K-O-B? K-O-B of course, kind of blue is a 9

that we have here. I have it as a 9.5. I think it's slightly We don't have the... Okay. You've done a 0.5 before? Have I? Yeah. Okay, that was a bad. Could we change this just for this one to is it more important than KOB? Is it more impactful than KOB? Is it better than that's such a that's such a harsh?

Do we like it better? It's like is one religion better than another? To that person that's part of it, yeah, probably. No, not the same. Is it do we like it better than KOB? Because this is such a spirit like is it a more spiritual album than KOB? That's not the question. I know.

But what does better mean? No, do we like it more? Do we like it more than KOB? What do you mean? Do you like secrets better than KOB? No. Well, up until recently you did. Yeah, but people change.

Okay. I'm going nine. I have nine. So nine means it's exactly. Exactly in line. And I had nine at first. To me, they're both perfect records. They are perfect.

You know what? You're convinced. I'm going down. No, no. Going down to nine. Okay, no. All right, let's add up. Okay.

Okay. Okay. All right. Favorite track, that feels kind of weird on this. Routa Toot, dude. What? What's he talking about, dude? What's the vagus one you were saying?

Rigg-a-ding-ding-Ding. I say, root-a-d-d-dood. Why didn't you bring that up? Okay. Well, no, that just seems kind of like what track you like the best. I love him when he goes into. Yeah, that's what Dean and Sinatra were doing. Routa-Doo-2.

What are you talking about? That was later on, after the show. It was in the 70s. Okay, so the total score, I have a 98 favorite track resolution. Oh, that's what I just wrote. Resolution. Total score, you had 98? Yeah.

Damn it. I love this record as much as you. Actually, this is good. I have 97. Yeah, I think that's appropriate. From what we talked about before, we'd kind of be in time. This is in my top three. I don't think this is in your top three.

So, yeah. All time. But after hearing this again, I couldn't see not having it in there. Folks, we've converted Peter back to Love Supreme. If anything, that's what this episode. it's done thank you everybody for getting it this far the ultimate uh question though which will probably be part of the title is is this better than kob oh you said yes slightly i said well no i said nine i think it's right in right you said 9.5 no i changed it oh you did change it okay well that's a

that's so no so yes and no snow until next time you'll hear it how's my mic placement calab is this too