You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Greatest Jazz Etude Ever Written

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Adam and Peter dive into a Jazz standard that we think might be the best practice etude ever written. What do you think?Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. You know what we're talking about today? I'm going to make a suggestion that we talk a little bit about this. Is that cool? It's going to have to be. Okay. I'm Adamanas.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music advice coming at you. Coming at you today, sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJadjazz.com for a deeper dive on all the things we're talking about. Oh, it's back. I love it. I love it.

How you doing? I'm doing all right. Good to see you. Yeah, this one. Full disclosure, we've had a couple of miscues. We've had a few drinks. We probably, that would have helped us. But no, we've had a few miscues.

But this is always important part of the creative process, right? And for those of you that weren't here in the studio, which is everybody, except for producer Caleb. Big shout out to producer Caleb. Please like and subscribe to this if you want to see producer Caleb cam come back. We do need a producer Caleb cam. We need to be innovative. Right. Yeah.

Right, right. But, yeah, you know, sometimes we will come up with different sub-exam back. for this podcast. Look, we've done over 1,100 episodes at this point. Did you know that? I know. Yeah, we've done quite a few episodes. So in order to delight and inspire and educate and erudiate, erudiate, we don't know. Do you make that up just now? Sounds good. Our dear listeners, to rudiate, to rudiate, the rudiments of erudiation. You know, it takes a little something. Not much, but we don't always have it, to be honest. We think we do. And so sometimes, It's just like when you're working on a solo.

You know, like you're playing and you're like, is this a good idea? Yeah. Oh, this is good. I'm going to go, yeah. And then all of a sudden, a couple choruses have gone by. And sometimes you spend a lot of time on that solo. And you're like, at the end of you're like, yeah.

So that's kind of what happened today. We've gone through several iterations of this episode. And believe it or not, we've gone all the way from Joe Zavinole, all the way to giant steps to where we've landed on. But sometimes that's part of the creative process. Hey, man, it's just the journey. It's just the journey. You can break a few eggs and make that omelet, baby.

Well, what we were trying to do is problem solve, right? We have an idea, and we're not really sure how to get there. And really that's what this whole episode is going to be about is problem solving. And you might not think of Giant Steps as a problem solving tool, but it 100% is. So for those of you who don't know, John Coltrane's Giant Steps is kind of like this benchmark that happens for players. Sorry, that's a little bit of weather report here. I'm bringing up Giant Steps. I want to listen to it a little bit.

Yeah. It's a benchmark that happens in a lot of modern players. And we don't need to do video on this at all. But we can just listen to it a little bit to hear how it sounds. Oh, I stick it up a little bit just hearing it because I'm like, pay attention. Be on your A game, right? So it's from his album giant steps. And you might notice that it's got a very jagged sound.

Like it sounds not only is it a. fast tempo, but it sounds like it's moving in very giant steps, which it is. And most of our listeners probably know, but if you don't know, what's happening here is it's going through, it's moving through three different keys. And those keys are a major third away from each other, which happens to be symmetrical. So it moves from the key through the keys of B, E, flat, and G. And so that creates an augmented triad. And if you were to do another major third up from G, you go back to B. So it's this. cycle of these three keys in major third.

Okay, so hold on a second. Yeah. Game changer. I did not know that. Are you serious? I'm serious. This is why we do the pod, bro. Are you, wait.

No, I didn't know. You're not kidding. I know the chords, but I never like realized that it was all major thirds away. So wait, you're saying it starts in B, right? But then it goes to G. He's so delighted. The delightful look on your face. I can't believe.

Dude, there is much I don't know. You didn't know that it's an exercise. to go through major thirds in this augmented No, Natalie, did I know it? I still don't understand it. Please educate me. Damn, this is going to be a great episode. Okay, now.

Maybe this episode is Adam reacts to Peter's Inger. Now we've got something. Now we've got something. New title, Caleb. Adam reacts to Peter's Ingers. No, but I mean, so it starts on B. What do you mean? What do I mean, buddy?

Don't make me feel bad about it. So how does it play the first phrase? Oh. Gotcha. So this is what, so oftentimes I, when we teacher at Open Studio, people get really hung up on theater. I'm not going to say like, this is why oftentimes I, Adam, take the lead on teaching. No, no, no, no.

Because I understand this shit. No, our students at Open Studio can sometimes get hung up on theoretical concepts. And I say, like, it doesn't matter. A lot of the greatest players, your favorite players, probably don't think about things in these theoretical terms that you're trying to analyze this in. Like, the analysis is just gravy. But this is interesting. And this is important.

I have the feeling. Well, is it you can, I've heard you shred on this song and you didn't know this. No, but that's also like saying, oh, this drum. is so amazing he can't even read music it's like yeah but it would certainly enhance things if they did they can still do interesting things okay well for those I'm sure everybody does know this but those of you who don't know including my illustrious what what is the term of I've forgotten more than I've ever learned that's right you know maybe it's that kind of thing so giant steps takes you through three different keys and they're all a major third away from each other so B

a major third yeah and then it goes straight to g which is a major third down and then it goes straight to E flat, which is a major third down. And then if you were to take that even further, you would go another major third down to B. And those are the three keys in the entire tune, right? Oh, so you're like five to one, five to one. Yeah, because it's B, then it's a five one to G, then it's a five one to E flat. And then it's a two five one to G, five one to E flat, five to B. And then what happens here, two five to E flat, two five to G, two five to B, two five to E.

So you're saying going down to major thirds. It goes up and down. It goes up and down. I just saw the up and I just cycles through. Yeah, it cycles through in major thirds. Because I'm seeing that, like, as soon as you said it and I finally kind of got it, it's like, okay. This is so great, by the lab. I love it so much.

You like this content? Yeah, yeah. Like and subscribe for more content. Okay, so B, I would say now E flat going up, right? So we're starting on B. I'm thinking going up. The next one is going to be E flat, right, going up in major thirds. What are you talking about?

You said it's based on the beginning. Yeah, from the beginning. Well, it cycles around. round a major third, but it goes up and down, I believe. Right. But this is the way I'm seeing it. Maybe it's another way of going up. So B major,

E flat major. Yeah, but there's a whole key of G in between those two. Yeah, but I'm trying to go with the thing. And now we're G major. Yeah. Now we're B major. Yeah, but there's a whole key of E flat between those two. It's going down.

It's just a different way of looking at it, man. You say potato. You're skipping over an entire key center. Well, because I was ignorant to this one element, I got to find a more complicated way to look at it. Okay. Isn't that what theory is? Yeah.

Yeah, what are you looking at? Hi, sir, can we help you? Yeah, we're recording a podcast. It's all right. Okay. Just had a little guest here. That was awesome. I wonder if he knows that it's a major third.

We should have asked him. Hey, do you know the giant steps moves around. Actually, I do know that guy. Oh, do you know that guy? Okay, good. Okay, so got it. So, B major, G major, E flat. Yeah.

But then how do you, what is this then? G major B. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the same three keys. That's so cool. B major G and E flat.

Those are the only keys we're dealing with in giant steps. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, okay, so did you know, did you also know this happens in Have You Met Ms. Jones?

The same concept in the bridge. What you mean? Yeah. So it starts, the bridge of having you met, having been, having been Miss Jones is the key of F. It goes to the four chords. Yeah.

Four chord in the bridge, B flat. Goes down a major third. Down a major third. That I did now. Two five to D. And then back to G flat. And then up the hat. Yeah.

Yeah, and so that's what Giant Steps is. It's basically John Coltrane wrote himself in A-tude in how to manage this major-third harmonic shift. Yeah. So this is something that I know Jeffrey Keeser has talked about, but like it's a composition technique. Wait, Keeser knows this? Keyzer knows everything. And this is a common thing. You can move around in major thirds.

You can also move around in minor thirds. Yeah. There's another way to do this. So you can, if we were in the key of, say, B, right? you can A flat is an option and then from there Yeah

That's, hey, it's me you're talking to, right? Yeah. Goes from F to the key of D to the key of B to the key of A flat. It's these symmetrical ways of moving through changes. So that's what giant steps is. So I guess what we're talking about today

is John Coltrane probably saw this problem. Why is the bridge to tunes like like Have You Mattis Jones and other tunes that use this. this major third movement. Why is it so challenging to switch keys? Because it's a drastic change.

The key of B major is very different from the key of G major. Right. It's very different from the key of E5. There's some common tones, but not a lot.

It's not like going to the four chord. There's a lot of just intrinsic drama, you know, kind of tonic drama that's built into that. That's super great. Can I just throw one thing in there

because I'm starting? Yeah, I can see the wheels turning. No, no, no, you know what's great about this? I think... That's just so great to watch you discover this. amazing.

You know, there's different ways to learn things. We all know that. But I think this is a great example of this. And because eventually it's not that it's like, oh, you're either thinking about the theory, which, when we talk about theory, that's really just the underpinnings. Like the, you know, like if you rip a building apart, what the structure of it that you don't see behind the sheetrock and the paint and the posters or whatever, like what's kind of holding it together, what stays the same? even if there's a remodel where you're like, wow, is this a new building? No, it's like the structure is still there.

Yeah, well, the theory is actually what the theory actually is is, hey, why does everybody like that building? Yeah, right. What's up with that building? Yeah, what's worth like, it's already built? Yeah. It's already great.

Yeah, why are we not tearing it down and building something new? Why are we keeping that? You know, so it's like the theory is that it's not the surface stuff around on the outside probably. But, you know, just like with architecture, there's different ways to explain that if you look at it from the side, if you look at it from above, like on a drone, if you look at it from the bottom,

if you look at the proportions or whatever. And so for me, the way that I've always thought about this tune as opposed to obviously that, because I didn't know what that, you know, with this major thirds thing, is the movement of the root, right? And what that shape is and what those intervals are, minor third, perfect fourth, minor third, perfect fourth, minor third, perfect four. Yeah. Like, so that's the pattern because I think a lot of times theory we get caught up in like

explaining things, which is very useful for and should be used for. but there's also like just the pattern recognition which is like the application of the theory to being able to play over it, right? Like are you recognized the patterns as you're playing it as you're listening to it after you've heard it as you're looking at that? There's all different ways to do that

but then how are you going to kind of get that to the point where you've sort of memorized that you know it it's part of you. You know like when we talk about the form of a tune that's like the biggest sort of pattern recognition like like you said have you met Miss Jones you know what is the root movement what is there with the pattern there's the number of bars that's the simple part of it's eight bars or whatever but when is it moving what are the signposts

it's amazing to hear you talk about this and I hope I hope it doesn't come across that I'm trying to shame you for not understanding that because I just want to make it very clear Peter I've heard you several times just completely shred on this tune way more than I could ever hope to and it's like it's just another lesson of like we probably don't have to overthink these things as much as we think we do, as far as, like, understanding what it all means or whatever, understanding the physical embodiment of how, like you said, you know, the big motions and just finding your own way to it. That's what an A2 is.

I'm sure that's why John Coltrane wrote this is trying to find his way to it. And he certainly found something with it. And what a cool, like, thing when there's multiple different lenses with which you can look at. Yeah. Like there's a prism, and it's like all these different ways. And what we're really talking about is, like, just that. basic theoretical way of explaining the relationships of the harm. We're not even really talking about rhythm or like the timing of what these, which is important as well, because it happens very

fast. But I think what it does maybe, and I don't want to totally commit to this and be dogmatic, but I think it is important to have some kind of theoretical understanding and way into, you know, way in like an entry point to feeling the tune. It also, it makes it recreatable. Right. If you understand, oh, this is the major third thing. You can apply similar concepts if you have to deal with it in other situations, which I'm sure, this is what atudes are. Atudes, they're problem-solving blueprints that musicians write, usually for themselves or for their students on how to get over a common occurrence. And in this case, it is a fairly common occurrence for a key change to happen in major thirds,

in minor thirds, things like that. And how do we, as improvisers, approach that in a smooth way? You mentioned the root movement, the changes, you know, B and then D-7 to G, and then B flat 7 and E flat. But, you know, listen to the baseline. Right, right. Right. And that's something I didn't realize.

So this baseline in the head moves down in whole steps. Yep. Right? It's D over A that they're playing. Then it's G major. Then it's B flat over F, right, with the five of the base, then E flat. That's something I didn't hear until Jeffrey Kieser made that point in one of our open studio videos, right?

So there's all this cool things. Should we be looking at explaining, theorizing about the chord changes as B major, A minor, 6? Well, that's what Jeffrey Kieser was saying. That's what Jeffrey was saying. It's like, he says what, you know, for me, it simplifies it to think about B major and then A minor 7. Because A minor, Dorian is the same as D7. Yeah. It's all the same stuff, right?

The two is just the five. And if you do that, first of all, it's not exactly the same maybe as I would do if I were doing B flat 7, but B.57. but it is an interesting sound. Like it is a sound that works really well and gets you, you know, especially if a bass player is doing like this thing, it gets you a susten.

Right? You can get more of those sort of like suspended sounds, which is really cool. Yeah. Well, I think about like, I guess because my reference point

and wow, it's so important to like, what is your original reference point? You know, what do they say, a first impression? Yeah. It's so important.

You know, nothing like the first impression. So, because I kind of learn that at least the first part of Coltrane sold the first chorus pretty early on upon learning this. Yeah, by the way, this is a very common transcription, a lot of musicians. Yes. Again, write a passage kind of thing. Yeah. And because that outlines very like, and then of course he's not playing the baseline, but you're, you know, you're thinking about

that as a piano. So like, well, what is that exactly that he's playing? Because he's playing continual 16th notes outlining very specifically. So he's doing one, two, three, five. One, two, three, five. One, one, two, three. so that's how I'm right. So even that, like, it's really cool the way that it's constructed and put together because it doesn't sound cookie cutter, but on the kind of micro level, it feels, boom, bo, bo, bo, it's like, what? That doesn't sound as hippos.

Of course, he gets into a lot more stuff. Yeah. But, yeah, and I think that's, you know, to the point of, like, an A-tune and why I would say that this is a great atude is because it forces you have people to be able to navigate these specific changes. And as we all know, these three specific tonic areas. Yeah. Yeah, everything is that.

But it also like, it forces you to some of the more traditional things that we think about classical atudes doing, say, for a pianist. Yeah. Which is technical stuff. Right. So it's like how you, technical hard. Yeah. How do you play a line, especially fast, hopefully you're practicing it slow to that is over quickly changing whether you know the chords or not or like what the relationships are? Like how do you construct a line whether you're doing a kind of Coltrane style where it's like you're putting a cohesive line together and you're breathing.

in between, but it's like just a flurry of notes that go through all the chord changes with a triadic stuff, a lot of like up to the nints and things like that, but be able to play that without having to just kind of go back to your normal, like, well, this is comfortable. Because there's nothing comfortable on this for any instrument. It moves too fast.

It moves too fast. You can't even be like, because you're already off the chord if you just stay at one-n-oh. So, like, what would them be the most comfortable thing you could do? Maybe. Yeah.

And some context to this as well. well, this album, Giant Steps, this isn't the only tune where this is an A-tune. Famously Countdown is on this album. Also, it's the, which is a contrafact of tune-up. Yeah. Which might be a contrafact, something else, actually. But Miles Davis's tune-up is a 2-5 to D, and then a 25 to C, then a 2-5 to B-flat. So C-minor 7. So John Coltrane took that and did the same thing he did with Giant Steps. We're going to move this through. that major third. So that E minor 7, that's the key of D.

That's the two in the key of D. Then immediately the F7, 5 in the key of B flat, a major third down. And then... G flat major. G flat. And then... And then it does the whole thing, down a whole thing. Down a whole step.

Exactly. Going down in major thirds. Sorry, that's wrong. Also, on the same album is Central Park West. Wait, no. Naima is. on this right? Which doesn't go through this

major third thing. But Central Park West is another ballot. I think that's from Coltrane. Is it on? I'm not sure. On Giant Steps? I don't think it is. Yeah. Central Park West. No, okay, so while you're looking up that, I'll just say this. It's really fun to kind of be able to

maybe kind of figure out different ways of looking at this. It's like when you understand why when you peel back those layers and start to see this thing and be like, oh, yes, of course this makes sense.

It really can be a revelation in terms of like how you highlight that. You don't have to be like super overt about it or whatever, but like if you're thinking about these different areas that you play, because one thing I've always thought about on this tune is like,

you've got to find some kind of entry point to make this tune make sense on more than just a chord by chord level. And I think that's why some people struggle with it talking about giant steps still. And that is that Coltrane, he gives the impression that that's the way he's playing. Yeah. But he's actually not, like, he understands it so well that he can go through and, like,

yeah, kind of compress things in a way that makes you think, wow, he's thinking about each court as it goes by. He's so far beyond that, you know, that don't, don't, you know, don't get a twisted, as they say. Central Park West is on Coltrane Sound, which also has the tuned satellite, which is just how high the moon with Coltrane changes on it. Yeah. as well. So, yeah. And just to be clear on this, too, for Giant Steps and for Countdown and for, I don't know about Central Park West, but he never played those songs live.

He never performed him in a concert. No. Interesting. This was just a phase he was going through and getting through. Coltrane etudes. Yeah, there's no live recordings. Apparently he never performed it in a concert, giant films. Wow.

Yeah. So that just shows you what he thought of it. He thought of it, I think, more as this artistic statement, this exercise to get him someplace. And then after Coltrane's sound, the album, he kind of abandoned this whole, this whole idea of these harmonic movements in thirds. It was a

major part of his development, obviously. He was into it for a couple of years. And then went on to that great quartet. Yep. And they didn't really do that stuff. That's right. That's right. You never hear no McCoy-Tiner plays giant stuff. I bet he could. I bet he could. He killed it. Yeah.

He might have recorded it later, actually. Right. I think McCoy did do a version of it. So speaking of things that might have happened, let's move on to things that must happen. Okay. You know what I'm going to say? I do. I know exactly what you're going to say.

Just as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, just as Peter wakes up, not knowing something about John Step, yet learns it. We ask that you, our dear listener, no, we don't ask. We used to ask. Now we demand. Which is a little, it's aggressive. We're some way in between asking and demand. We expect.

We expect. We deserve. We deserve. Okay. No, we would like to ask that you, all we're asking is that you hold up your end of the bargain. What's the bargain, Peter? What do they get in return?

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