You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How Bad Is the Real Book, Actually?

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

Today, Peter and Adam discuss one of the most controversial resources for jazz musicians: the Real Book, and wether or not it lives up to its infamy.Links from this episode:Get the free PDF from this episode with this linkCheck out all of the tunes mentioned in this episode with our Spotify playlistPrefer your podcasts in video form? Watch the YouTube version of this episode hereInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. You ever heard of a dust jacket? Like for an LP or something like that? Yeah, exactly. Yes, I have. I even have a few. Well, I hope you have one on you today because it's about to get dusty up in here.

Oh, let's do it. I'm Adam Annis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Music, advice. Coming at you twice a week. Coming at you? What?

Thought I'd slip that in there. Gotcha. Got you. What did you just say? Hey, man. It's, you know, we're ever evolving, ever changing. ever adapting. So we're going to add an episode.

I feel like we just went down to one a week. That's right. The people love us too much. They've been demanding this. They've been asking for it. We've got to give the people what they want, man. Okay. That's how we do it.

All right. So we'll do another episode here this week. Well, I'm excited about it now. Okay, let's do it. Actually, the way this is going to work, it's already out. Because we're in the future, remember? How do you know all of this before it happens? I got it all up here.

We'll talk about it after. All right. Well, we can talk about it later. Well, today's episode is sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio Jazz. for all of your jazz lesson needs. Today, we're asking a question, and we're answering that question.

How bad is the real book actually? The answer is, it's not great. It's not great. It's not very good. Episode finished, you'll hear it. No, what I mean by that is how bad is it accuracy-wise? How close is it to the actual songs that it claims to be representing? Right.

And this all came about as I've been kind of researching some tunes, you know, pandemic project, learn a bunch of new songs. You know how it is. Yeah. And I've been going back to the source. Something I really like to do, something that's never been easier to do than these days where you've got Spotify, you've got the old Googles. And you can really try to find as close to the original composer's intent as possible. Yeah. And so today I thought we'd share some instances where the actual song itself,

varies quite a bit from what is in the real book. And then thus, like, how jazz musicians, generations now jazz musicians have learned the tune. And, you know, old heads are always like, you got to go back to the original, go back to the source, but sometimes they mean like Freddie Hubbard. Right.

You know, for an American songbook standard. Yeah. And there's some interesting things. But, you know, another thing with this, too, is that what I wanted to show you today is that we can kind of go back to some of these original sources, and you actually get a lot of really good ideas.

Yeah. You know, because, you know, jazz musicians, especially depending on the era that they were in, love to throw things like two-fives in where there doesn't need to be a two-five, you know. And so we're going to see instances where maybe that's not the best choice. You know, maybe it's cool to kind of like learn the as close to the original changes or learn what the bass is doing, what the melody is really doing,

hear what the counter melodies are doing, and just compare it to what's in the real book. Yeah. You know, and one caveat on all this, too, is like, you know, this is as good as I've done today with Wikipedia and Spotify. So I'm not, as much as Peter Martin and I look very much like old dusty New York pianist. That's just the lighting in here right now. We're pretty close to being, to being old dusty New York pianists. We're aspiring. Yeah, future old dusty New York pianists, we are not. And so let us know if you know, I mean,

I've tried to find like as close to the original version as possible. I certainly don't have, you know, original, original, you know, cast recordings from a Broadway only 1928 show or whatever. But let us know if there's a more accurate version, either by sheet music. I tried to look up some resources there. That's very hard. There's a lot to weed through. There's a lot of qualifying you're doing for this presentation. No, no.

It's really more of a request of like I know there are some people who are obsessed with this kind of stuff. I am not. I'm going back to like where I think is interesting. And really what I'm trying to get out of this is like I'm trying to find versions. that aren't done by jazz musicians. Right. That are kind of done by more like popular song folks to see how they look at this song

that everybody knows as like a jam session standard. Yeah. So I approach it very similarly to what you're describing and I think what your philosophy is, but I add an even more confusing wrinkle into it. And that is that I'm very dogmatic against the real book because of the lack of accuracy in it,

but I'm also very much against those people that say it has to be very accurate just like the original. So I'm kind of a, I'm like a walking contradiction. I'm a walking question mark because I think that either side is a little bit, I get annoyed with either one. And I think that the music and the beauty lies somewhere in between. Yeah. But for sure incorporating this element that you mentioned in terms of going back and checking out different reference recordings, plural, hopefully.

Yeah. Even better for ideas, for ear training, for inspiration, not to become dogmatic and have to be like, George and I, Ira Gershman, here's a picture of them in Brooklyn as they were walking on, in Bay Ridge, and they said it was a C-sharp. Nobody cares about that. Nobody cares about that. No, I mean, people care about that. Actually, lots people. Yeah, actually, a lot of people care about it. No, but it's not, I mean, just dogma for dogma's sake. And so as dogmatic as I can be about like stay and you've heard me say this many times, I don't like the real book because it's not right. But it's not even that it's not right because I don't play all this stuff perfectly the way it was originally intended.

We're not supposed to. We're jazz music supposed to be interpreting it. Yeah. Bring it to life, you know, doing an arrangement different each time. But the real book sometimes is somebody else's interpretation that you don't know where it came from. That's right. And even when they reference it, they'll say like Miles Davis, you know, My Funny Valentine recording. They'll say it.

But then I'm like, well, that's not what they played on there. Like at least whoever you're stealing their version of cite it correctly. Get that version right. Yeah, get that version. Well, and what's great. So we have Stella by. starlight on here from that Miles Davis Live at the Philharmonic. And that's a perfect example of when you can see the 1940 version of those first few chords and you understand what's going on there,

it actually makes Miles' version make a lot more sense. And it kind of helps me understand how those musicians, Miles and his band were probably thinking about this. And it's not then just a bunch of two-fives. It really helps to understand some different ways that jazz musicians have played these tunes over the decades. Nice. So let's get into it, man. I'm really excited. So we're going to do four tunes.

We're going to do all the things you are, but not for me. Stella by Starlight and softly as in a morning sunride. Doesn't get any dustier than that. It doesn't get any more jam session tunes. And then I wanted to pick tunes that hopefully everybody knows. So the first track that we have is all the things you are, Jerome Kern, Oscar Hammerstein wrote the lyrics, written in 1939. And so I have.

The show is called A Very Warm for May. Now, I've never seen Very Warm for May. I assume that's a pun that it's about a woman named May. Right, right. You know, like, it's a pun on the month and the woman. I could be wrong. If any of our dusty listeners know, please let me know if you've seen the show. Yeah.

But so there's a couple of different recordings of that, especially I found some early ones that had the verse, which is actually super beautiful, the verse of this. but I found a recording that doesn't have the verse but has Jerome Kern playing piano on it and so I thought we could play this one and it's a really interesting story this recording the name of the album is called American Music what is it, carousel of music.

I've seen an article written about this this is a live concert in 1940 one year after the tune was written and I've seen an article where it was called the cavalcade of music it was a concert put on by ASCAP for their songwriter to be broadcast on the radio.

The whole concert has a very interesting history. I encourage everybody to just Google Cavalcative Music Concert, September 24th, 1940. Super interesting. It was kind of like right when the broadcasters started BMI to counter the publisher's ASCAP. That competing publishing company started out of, you know, money, obviously.

None of the artists were seeing any of that, by the way. No, no, no. It has had no effect on any of the songwriters or artists, But, but music publishers. So, anyway, Ascat put on this concert with a bunch of their songwriters, some really great songwriters, including like Sigmund Romburg, who wrote Zolfi's in a Morning Sunrises on this show too. But Jerome Kern is on there.

It's emceed by a guy named Gene Buck, who I believe was with the Broadcasters Association. So we're going to hear an intro by Gene Buck introducing who he calls Jerry. That's Jerome Kern. Okay. And this is sung by a singer named Tony Martin. This is September 1940, about one year after Jerry, Jerome Kern, wrote the tune. Jerry Kern.

Oh, Jerry Kern. And there's some really interesting things that happen here. Let's check it out. Here's the intro followed by all the things you want. Now, are we looking at the chart yet? Yeah, go ahead. Put the chart up here on YouTube. And also, by the way, our podcast folks, we have the PDF here that you can download.

YouTube folks, you can download the PDF here too if you want to see all of it. What about Stitcher folks? Can they download something? I don't know what that is. Okay. Here we go. I've chosen of the numerous beautiful things that Jerry has written for his next number, all the things you are.

And we're to be privileged to have this little program embellished with the presence of one of the most charming modern troubadours. And Jerry's lovely tune is going to be sung like Tony Miles. That makes the It's chord though Yeah Keep going, keep going Hold on So hip

Yeah Diminished What about that That's the way I play You don't play like No one does Okay There's a lot to talk about

Just in this first example Yeah That's the melody So first of all Look at So yeah I just have In the last A section

I just have the last A bars That dude's saying it wrong man You didn't have the real book Well no So this is way So actually So I found, so that melody, that's the first thing I want to talk about. So look at listen to the melody here.

So I hear people, actually you've done, I've heard you. A lot of, I do that too. Why got to put me out on blast, man? What's up? No, it's what the real book says. A lot of people play it like that. So that's how I learned it. Right.

And then it wasn't until someone, a virtual potster once told us like, no, it's actually, right? But that's not right either. It's closer. It's getting closer. But Jerome Kern's playing people. piano here. I assume Jerome Kern means for it to be, I can't find any published music where that's the melody, but there's this version. And then check it out, man, in the very, did we, we might, did we hear Jerry Curse under his, under his piano chords as, as, as, he didn't. So he, he

approved of this. So the very same year, Tommy Dorsey had a hit record with all the things you are. Check it out. Oh, but my little jazz. A little jazz. A little jazz here. Check it out. Key of G. With all the things you are on. Up to the fourth. Just like Jerry's version here.

Isn't that interesting? I've never heard any jazz musician play that melody. You know what? I'm doing it like that from now on. Me too. Yeah, and everybody on here. Why do we tell them? I know, I know.

We're going to start a trend. Another couple of... Wait, do we like it, though? Because this is... You know, you talk about having to pass the smell test. We've got to pass the ear test. It sounds pretty good. Yeah.

I mean, like, so if I put it, if we're, I put everything in the sort of the real book key so that we can all think about it the same way. Just so that we can totally contradict ourselves. No, just so we can kind of compare apples to apples here. Or I think I like the version everybody plays better. But, well, yeah, everybody loves that version. So why is it more acceptable that we can change the harmony? You know the people that get really dogmatic about the melodies? maybe there is more validity to really making sure we nail the melody

or at least have that as a reference point than even the harmonic structure because a lot of times even like when it went to that four the diminished over I mean the diminished over the five which is a great sound but a lot of times we're isn't it what's they diminished? Yeah the A flat diminished over E5 that's what I want to talk about you know that's that Bill Evans core we talked about a couple weeks ago right right the one diminished over the five

right gorgeous Right. But I mean, in terms of like you could go up to anything within that cycling and it could certainly work. And I guess it's a big difference. With the five in there. So here's what, first of all, it's not on the chart here. But the chord that they, the transition chord from the bridge. In most cases, people are going from E major. And you go to like a C7, flat 13 back to the F. Makes sense, right?

Because that G sharp is there. Yeah. But this version, and actually a couple of different ones that I've heard from around this time, go up to this A-flat augmented triad. So it's like a C, you know, but it's with a different inversion. But that bass note actually makes a huge difference. Oh, it's huge, yeah. There's something really powerful about that, about that transition there.

I love that. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing, a couple of big things. Some things I've, okay, so see the second chord in the 1940 version here? Yeah. Right. D-flat minor over B-flat. I remember learning it with this chord.

It's a B-flat half-diminished. It's a B-flat-a-d-d-d-d-missed. But then I remember in the real-book version I had, there was a C-minor next. Which means, yeah. This makes so much more sense going to an A-flat over E-flat. Right. Right. Get that 5-1 movement.

So now everything is over this pedal. Yeah. How beautiful is that instead of... Nothing wrong with that, but hanging out, and I think even the strings you can hear them go like... down to the F, like a little movement down there, and then stays on the pedal. So again, it doesn't mean that everyone else who's done it the other way is wrong or that it's not valid.

It does. It just, no, no, no. Oh, it doesn't? Okay. Dang. It's really, really interesting to hear. Now, another note about all of the performances of the dusty versions we're hearing.

Corny, yes, certainly. But hats off, because there is no multi-track or overdubbing or auto-tune or anything. anything like this. And Tony Martin here, I think, crushes it. He's like pitch perfect, lots of emotions. They play it again, actually, on the album. The audience makes them play it again. Wow. Because they were digging it so much. It was a whole other era. So there's all the things you are. Now, just for a little antidote to the cornyness, though, let's, let's hear Alan. It should be done. If not, he's, he's ripping Slam Stewart's thing big time.

So that was out of that beat diminished. Yeah Isn't that cool? Yeah Very cool That's of course Dizzy Gillespie Charlie Parker All the things you are

All right Our next Dizzy is so sharp But you know that That's the thing with the With the mute The mute makes the Chumpet sharp

Did you know that? I did know that actually Yeah because it slows that air down From going through But Dizzy I love Diz We're not being trying to be dogmatic Here with saying

Like you have to learn the But it's just really interesting To go back To hear these compositions as close to their source as possible. It gets you some good ideas. It does. And I think it's so cool because, you know,

I mean, who knows if Dizzy and Charlie Parker and the gentlemen were checking out these particular regional versions, but they definitely heard more of them than we did. And so, like, to make that jump from taking the song. And you know what I was just thinking about? I actually think I heard him go down to that five on that diminish, but because he's just walking, like that's the biggest thing I think that changes these root movements is the walking bass element.

So on these are these. original versions, they're very stationary, and you've got the string arrangement. It's always in two. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But it's interesting to hear the bass lines are very interesting. Yeah.

They tell you a lot about, I think, what the composer was thinking with the harmony. Like when you get the baseline and the melody on these original versions, you're like, oh, that's why you would do that harmony, though. It's pretty interesting. And I would say for pianists and, you know, certainly for guitarists to, I mean, for everybody, you want to be able to hear this stuff. But this can give you some good ideas. And, you know, certainly Bill Evans was great at this.

But you know, for different pedal points and just different root choices, even if you're not actually re-harmonizing. You know, an arrangement can be very much about an interesting root movement. I mean, bass players are great at doing this as they're walking through this kind of a thing. Yeah. But we really have an opportunity in solo piano to maybe incorporate some of these things that we like. Yeah. No, there's just some really good ideas you can get from going back to some of these. Yeah, definitely.

Let's check out, Benat for Me. So, but not for me was written. I'm singing songs of love. but not for me. Is it going to sound like that? It is. Actually, it might. So, But Not For Me.

It was written in 1930 by the Gershwin's, George and Ira. Oh, 1930, sorry. I'm singing songs of love, but not for... I don't know why I went up half a day. It was written for a musical called Girl Crazy. Girl Crazy, I've never seen the show. I'm crazy for the girls. Go ahead.

Never seen the show, but of course, home to I Got Rhythm, Embraceable You and But Not for Me. I would feel like that's... Is that enough standards in there for you, buddy? Is that good enough for you? Is that good enough for you? Change music even more of the Gershwins. But not for me. Interesting history as far as its lineage here.

What's so funny? Tor to talk about these recordings are making me want to buy a cardigan sweater. You should, Tor to talk. It's dusty, man, and the dust is cold. Now, we're getting all the record dust off today. So it's actually hard to find... A hoodie dust. It's hard to find a very dusty version of Girl Crazy.

these soundtracks. So there was a movie, a film in the 40s of Judy Garland, but I did not like the music from the film. There wasn't, it didn't feel. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Shade. I know. Shade on girl crazy. Well, it felt Hollywoodized, to be honest. So I found a version from 19... You know where it was filmed. Where? Hollywood. Of course. I found a version from 1952 that Tote being the original cast, but I don't think this was the exact original score. But I think this is probably closer than maybe the film was. I don't know. Again, for our are more are better

Wikipedia users if you can point me in the right direction I'd love to hear it but this is Mary Martin and again kind of corny yes but very killing she's got a great voice fun fact she's my great grandmother no I don't think so but it could be

I'm a Martin so this is the sort of musical theater version of but not for me there's some really cool lyrics here again a little cute verse at the top Old man, sunshine, listen you, never tell me dreams come true. Just try it. And I'll start crying.

Beatrice Perfax, don't you dare? Notation? Ever tell me he will care. I'm certain. It's the final curtain. I never want to hear from any cheerful Pollyanna The lyrics on this Who tell you fate

Supplies are made The lyrics crazy good It's all banana Palliana banana They're writing songs up love But not for me A lucky star is above, but not for me. With love to lead the way, I found more clouds of ray than any Russian play could guarantee.

I was a fool to fall to fall and getting that way. I ho alas and also like a day Although I can't dismiss the memory of his kiss I guess he's not but not for me But not for me I know that loves a game I'm puzzled just Puzzled just the same.

Was I the moth or flame? I'm all at sea. But what an end. This is the time of felony. When every happy plot ends with a marriage night. I have a feeling this was 50's eyes a little bit. But Mary Martin, like I said, man, it's not, it's not the hippest version, but, you know, there's...

It's hipper than that other stuff. It's hip than that other stuff. But there's no auto tune. There's no, like, she's, there's no multi... There's no, like, overdubbing. She's doing that with the orchestra in the room next to her. And she's just killing it.

It's just beautiful singing. And so a couple of really interesting things. So first of all, on my research for this, the real book has gotten better. I don't know if you know this or not. There's different versions, isn't there? They started copyrighting it, and so the changes have gotten better.

But the real book version that I learned this from when I was just a pup was like, and this is, her version is in G, but we'll do it in F here. The real book version that I first saw had the first chord being the two chord. Okay, you know what? I'm not a fan of that. Stop.

Full stop. Full stop, right? Because I've always, and I'm trying to remember what my reference for this. Yes, that's been one of my big pepies. Terrible. Yeah, because that takes away the drama. That's the best part of the song is when it goes to the two chord. Yeah.

times. Both times. And then some people play it the first time, because this is a double form. So taking out the verse, some people play it, they start on the one, but then the second half, they start on the two. Same thing. No, that's, that's wrong. It always starts on the one, except for the second phrase. No, but it should be like that. Even, so I have a Mad Jamal's queued up here, and they play the one, you know, listen to Amat. Yeah, exactly. At the very least. But some really interesting things. So, but this real book chart is very problematic in general. That's beautiful. Is it going to be doing? He is going to be doing that?

He is going to be true. I'll stick around it. So here, if we look at the first ending here you have on the real book, just B flat major seven. Yeah. Not accounting for that C sharp. So you might say, okay, maybe that's A over B flat or B flat diminished seven. Yeah.

But actually, in the strings, they have a G on top, or in that version, it's an A on top. So. Like a minor six. Like a minor six chord, which is really interesting, right? Yeah. and then shifting right up. And then the bass, the bass doesn't go to the minor at all.

Da-da-da-da. Goes down there. And then it does this. Yep. Right? There's never a secondary dominant two chord, like a G7 here. It's all minor seven in the original.

And then this is the hippest part. So it's like this E half to minister, G minor over E. And then there's this little figure. Yeah, I don't know about that. No. So you could actually, I was thinking, I was playing around this with this today, you could make a more modern sounding version with these original changes than with the real book changes easily. Like if you were to like, like you can really get some slick stuff happening there.

Yeah. Those little moo chords, you know what I mean? So that is the kind of stuff that when you kind of take a deeper dive on some of the older versions, the non-jazz versions of these, you can see some shades of what the composer might have thinking with the melody in the baseline that could inspire you to make a pretty hip version yourself. So I love that version. Well, and I think that there's, that's great stuff. And I also think the timing of the chords is super important. That's another thing that the real book screws up. So you've got, most people go there to the two.

Yeah. But I notice this every time in that version that we just listen to, Mary Martin, stays there. And then on the third beat. And that's kind of regardless of what you do. What you do there. The one, wherever the diminishes. That makes a difference.

Those bass movements make a difference. They do. And it's really, like we said, you can do it however you want. But it's kind of cool to know this stuff and understand where the original composition was coming from. And the whole thing is like when you put this in your playing, I would recommend that if you hear something here, you know, try it out. It's like fingering for pianists. Like try it. Let's sit with it for a few days.

And then see if you like the way it sounds. This is not about playing it. Because you're never going to have a chance to tell an audience, well, I guess you could. Yeah. I just played the original root movement on the beat three. of the 17th bar of the second A. You're welcome, San Francisco. Yeah, thank you, San Francisco.

Give me my martini. No, but I mean, you know, but if it sounds good to you and you work it in and there's some kind of connection you make with the original movement, this stuff is important because it's not just the melody and the lyrics. And we've got plenty of places.

We can still layer some other interesting stuff. You know, maybe you take your time going down. That's what I'm saying. And that gives you a little extra time to get the... How much easier is it to make music out of that lower one then it is that upper one. Oh, yeah, the upper one makes me want to throw up all over this MacBook and keyboard. So for a little bit of tonic for that, how about this?

You see that? I think they might have known. Yep. But it's thoroughly modern and arranged at the same time. Half step up. That's an Amadism there. So that's Amad Jamal live at the Pershing, but not for me. Easily the swing is, swinging his version of this song ever.

Before we get to the next track, Yes, sir. Where'd you buy your original first? Illegal real book. Do you remember? Let me check the date. Do we pass the statute of limitate March 29th, 2021? Oh, we're cool.

Okay, yeah, so I can talk about. Baton music. Me too. University City, Missouri. Me too. From a gentleman name. He was not a gentleman. He was a gangster.

Well, we thought he was. I mean, that was the most illegal thing. I know. Were you a kid? Until I got into drugs the next summer. No, I'm just kidding. I was a kid. I mean, I was probably 15.

Yeah, me too. And you go in there and you're like, excuse me, sir, Kevin said that you have the real book. I think the first time, it's funny, the last time you told the story, you had a last name with that, Kevin. That's okay. I don't want to sell them out. I want to sell Kevin out. No, but I think the first time I went in by myself

and I even got scared and I went back with Jeremy Davenport. We went together. That's so funny. For the kids out there were wondering what the hell we're talking about. The real books used to be illegally printed. Yes. And like you'd be like, you know, you'd have to go to your music store and it was behind the counter. Yeah.

And they were like mad, expensive. And yeah, it was a whole thing. And, I mean, this was like, this is before like, this was like, see, Napster and the internet used to be in real life. Like illegal stuff was being passed around, but you had to go physically have it passed around. This is before NFTs and Napster and all these different kind of things. Okay. So the next, first of all, before we get to our next one, too, if this is what you want to see out of this channel, hit the like, maybe the subscribe button. And if this is what you don't like, please hit the thumbs down button.

So either way we know, it's a win-win, right? It is a win-win. And then you can also check out the PDF here in the chat or the description of all of these examples between the two. I've adjusted the keys of all of these dusty ones for the real-book key. We've adjusted the names of the Innocence. Except for baton music, we sold them out. Right. Well, they've been sold out.

They've been sold them for a while. I think we're good. I think we're good. Yeah, yeah. So the next one, this is a notorious one. This has talked about quite a bit. Stella by Starlight. And it's really the first eight bars, notoriously is inaccurate in the real book.

Can you put that up here? Yes, sir. The history of this song, so written in 1944 by Victor Young for a movie called... B.Y. What a B? The Uninvited. And one of the first hit versions of this song, recording-wise, was from a young, very young, Frank Sinatra, in 1947. Who? The chairman of the board.

So, yeah, that thumbnail of him with the mugshot. We were trying to find pictures of him around this time. is one of the first ones that came up. So we thought it'd be fun to put up there. And then Ronan Farrell came up. That was kind of weird too. That's awkward. I don't know anything about that.

No, so Frank's 19, first of all, these early Frank Sinatra Columbia recordings are just a gold mine, especially if you like arranging, string arranging and things like that. And his voice, man, this is before the ring of ding ding ding, you know, like, I mean, really, he is crushing these. He's so good as a young singer. You didn't feel like during the Ring of Ding Ding, ding, Vegas period where he was crushing it as much? Is that what you're saying?

I love that period. Whole other thing, though. This is very, very much. He was singing ballads, love songs, and he was trying to be, you know, like a romantic heartthrob. And he was... Oh, he wouldn't try it. He was very good at it.

He was very, very good at it. So this is Frank's version of Stella by Starlight. Again, YouTube will put up the notation here so you can see the first eight bars of what he's doing versus what the real book has. And again, not that the real book and the people that have played, like Miles, who have played these changes from the real book are wrong, but it's really interesting to heed.

and see the harmonic movement of the original because it's like, oh, that's what that is. So here's Stella by Starlight, Frank Sinatra. Strings, man, cheese. Five. Five half. Back to the one. One dominant, right?

Isn't that revealing? Yeah, I mean, yeah, everything sounds good. Four, one movement. Yeah. Lots of 4-1, not a lot of twos. No. At even top. That ripples by a door.

Where two lovers hide are gray. Sorry, Alan. This is in his voice here too, man. What a beautiful turn of phrase this guy has. Wow, it goes to the relative line. It's not just a bunch of two-fives after all. Isn't that something? I love hearing that so much.

So, and we can talk about, because you said that relative minor, but I want to talk about that too, but if we take the most famous part about this. So I remember people, I remember actually back in New York at the new school, Doug Weiss, shout out to Doug Weiss, great bassist, saying like, you know, it's B-flat diminished, actually, is the first chord. Is that a dusty way to approach the tune, though?

Not what we just heard, but being in New York in the late 90s telling a kid from St. Louis. Is that dusty? Big shout out to Doug Weissel. I love the best, man. Oh, it's the best. And I trust anybody to know the changes is Doug. You're not answering my question. Is that a dusty thing?

Of course it is. But look at how dusty we're getting the day, my friend. Come on, man. So check it out. So B flat diminish 7. So I remember when he said that, I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense going to that C minor 7, though. Yeah. Right?

Sorry. Like my chords in the way. Going to the C minor 7, sounds terrible. It sounds terrible. But when you see what Frank does here, that B flat diminished 7, that's like a diminished dominant chord to our F7.

That makes a ton of sense all of a sudden. It's a 5-1 to the 5. It's a 5-of-5 essentially. Now, like, it makes a lot of sense. And that the root movement of just 1 to the 5. What a fancy baseline that is. Isn't that fancy? It's dusty.

Back to the 1. Back to the one. This is why bass players didn't make a lot of money back then. I know. Well, but they had to be in the pocket for it. Now, is that something I would play on a trio gig? Probably not. No.

But knowing that, now it helps me actually to understand what's going on here on the top real book version that everybody plays a little bit more. Like I understand that it's not just these two fives that are in space here. There's actually a lot more going on there than you might think. Yeah, and I think that what you can still make the connection is So we're starting here B flat diminished or ton what was Frank was he in G?

Yeah he's in G yeah I like that That was fun That's a really good key actually for this But wherever so we're at the one diminished So five to the one Five of five right But then it's the whole thing is a bunch of places that you're not expecting to go

We're actually kind of going to the four Which feels like the one But it's not And I know that they didn't go to that Now I'm jumping back to the more modern version. Yeah, yeah. And then when you do get to the one, so it's all a journey from here to here. To here.

Exactly right. And even if we do this version, Ruby Hancock, what? The same thing. It's a journey. It's just a different journey that you're going. That's right. And you know what I'm remembering about this? I had the pleasure and the honor and the good fortune and the luck to be able to play this one time with Ray Brown, the master, Ray Brown.

And I remember him showing me, he said, He was with rehearsing, and I was kind of auditioning for his band and his trio. And he said, Stella by Starlight, where did you trio? And I was like, oh, good, I know that. He's like, all right, by here, I was like, oh, cool. Nice little grueber. He's like, in C, one. I'm like, whoa, C's easy, but, ah, you know.

So I'm like. Where's the first chord? Yeah. And he's just like playing. And I don't remember if he said C or F. It was something that seemed easy, but I'm having to play the melody. But when he got here, what does it usually say in the fake

but we didn't get to that part but that... Yeah, it does that four minor thing. Yeah. But he said just two five back, right? Exactly. He said, um, let's say... Are you back in...

Two-five to G. He's like, that's the original. That's the right changes. Well, did you hear what Frank did, though. That's not what he did. Oh. So... Well, come on.

And I'm doing it in the real book key. Okay. B flat. So D minor, right? And we're going back to F. Yeah. Oh, so that's that descending. Okay.

So D minor to like a C sharp diminish to an F over C. That's what Frank did. But I mean, again, this isn't the original original, but I assume that that's pretty close because that's less of a 2-5 thing. It's closer, and Ray Brown's thing was also closer to... Closer to that, yeah, for sure. Again, none of these are wrong.

You can do it however you want, but it's interesting to kind of hear the different versions. Isn't that great? I love that. Let's do... So we've settled nothing here. No, no, but we have options. definitely have more of options. We have knowledge.

Knowledge is power. Now let's see one that has the quote unquote wrong changes, but, uh, you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? Do you like this? Is this something you like? Is this the type of thing you like? I'm smashing like. I'm smashing like.

Is this the type of thing that you like to see, Peter? Come on. Do I know Peter Martin or do I? Okay, hold up. We got to play that again. I got to, and I got to stop disrespecting a bite. But just listen to the, okay, forget about, forget about, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, forget about, we forget.

We played a little. bit of Herbie Hancock, Peter can't take it. But you know what, it's not just, it's not this Herbie. This could be anybody. No, it could only be Hurby. No, but this is the thing. I mean, I've studied this intro and like, this means a lot to me because it was transformative to me when I heard this. I was like, I want to do that. I don't know what that is, but I love that. And the simplicity, this is a very young Herbie Hancock. But let's forget about the changes and all that kind of stuff. Just talk about music now and leading into, like you think about the way Frank Sinatra sang the melody and with the lyrics. Unbelievable. And the lineage and the connection. And the

connection with this. But with Herbie setting the plate, obviously Miles comes in, killing it on the melody. So gorgeous. Who's like fidgeting around by the mics? You hear they're worse than us, man. Didn't seem like a two five to me. Come on, Herbie. You don't know the Frank Sinatra version, man. So that's Stella by Starlight from live at the Philharmonic. Yeah. Go check out. We actually, we have a playlist here in Spotify. I know Ron Carter's about to come in with the root. Four. I know. Four notes of the one. Bam. He centers it. So you could check. check out the Spotify playlist too for all of these. We've got a nice playlist for you if you want to hear the dusty version and then sort of what I'm kind of, I put my favorite version.

I'll be honest here. I didn't put like this, you know, I mean a lot of these are standard, standard versions for jazz musicians, but they're my favorite versions. So dusty Springfield, Vincent says, do you remember him? I do. Oh, come on. That was a little before you time. Well, it's a her. Oh, it was?

Yeah. Oh, I'm thinking of Rick Springfield. Different person. You're a, you're a. Dusty Springfield, that's right. You're veritable encyclopedia of pop culture, Pete. Dusty versus Krusty.

Yeah, that's a tough one there. So our last tune is softly as in a morning sunrise. This is written by Sigmund Rombin and Oscar Hammerstein. Who? Sigmund Rombin and Oscar Hammerstein. So Rogers and Hammerstein?

No. No. Okay. Was Hammerstein? Hammerstein or Hammerstein? I have no idea. Was he cheating on Rogers on this one? because it's usually Rogers and Hammerstein.

Yeah, he was cheating on Rogers for it. Okay. But, yeah, Sigmund Romburgh wrote the music. Sidney Romburgh sounds like an accounting firm. Sigmund. Sigmund. That sounds like a law firm. De Boisier and Sigmund and...

De Boisier. Sigmund and De Bozier Esquire. Available on Claiborne Avenue in New Orleans, Louisiana. Oh, my guess. So, anyway, 1928. So actually pretty young Oscar here, Hammerstein, Steen. And this was, so this was another one because it was from an operetta in 1928. Hard to find like an original cast recording of this.

But I did find... You have to go up to vintage vinyl in the loop and look in those dusty bins of EPs and 78s to find that, sir. Yeah, exactly. So I did find this album of Sigmund, Ronbergs, and Oscar Hammerstein. It's called Desert Song, New Moon. Oh, the name of the operetta was New Moon. and this is an operatic singer named Thomas Hayward, originally from Kansas City's. I assume this is sometime in the 40s or maybe early 50s,

but this to me feels like it would be close to the original, because the original is described as a tango, which nobody plays it as a tango when they play it on the Cransburg stage on the Wednesday jam session. Nobody's... Could we tango it, though? Is that tango? Yeah, you want to hear it?

Oh, yeah, sorry. Check it out. Okay. Yeah, and tender, love came to me. Sweet surrender, love came to me. In bright, romantic splendor, ficklewashi. It's a good verse, too. Faithful never fickle was she,

and clever, so will it be. Forever Because in a morning sunrise The light of love comes steering Into a newborn Yeah, if you're gonna If you get beyond the barrier, bro, put the mask on.

Oh Flaid With all the glow of sunrise A burning kisses sea more Zoro than Tango. You're going to like my antidote to this, but of all. Check out this bridge. What'd you know about that's very?

Yeah. So that's in G flat major. What'd you know about that? That's very. Yeah. So that's Thomas Hayward. Kansas City's Thomas Hayward, Kansas City's own. Any relation to Gordon Hayward of the Boston Celtics? I do not believe so. Power forward.

But, uh, shooting cards. First of all, a couple interesting things there with changes. But I want to just point out the bridge and want to point out how terrible the real book version of this bridge is. First of all, let's look at the last measure of the bridge. On the original version, this version that we just looked to is the key of G flat. So we'll go back to the real book key of C, uh, E flat. Yeah. So, uh, this last couple bars of the bridge.

this beautiful melody that you heard Thomas Hayward just saying you know what the real book version has? Do-de-do-do-de-do-de-do-de-nothing. It doesn't have anything. It's got a bar of rest. It has nothing there. They were just like, yeah, nothing happened there. Nothing happened in that.

Phil, bass fill, drum fill. Yeah, there's nothing in that. That's how bad the real book can be. And again, I did some research on real book charts. I think the more modern real books probably have a better version of this. But the real book I grew up with definitely had a bar of rest because I didn't know that until way too late actually.

But a couple of really cool things. The real book version here is not bad. A couple of really cool things here with the original changes though that you hear just happened. I love this change. That's all well and good. Now this change is super hip.

Just a little too dominant chord. Right. Back to this five. And then... A little flourish. Maybe a little castanette. Tick-a-tick-ting. Back to the...

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that awesome? Yeah, and I think actually I'm thinking the way, isn't that the way, I don't know if it was in the real book, I hear a lot of people playing it, those last four bars, F minor over E flat, as opposed to. Right. But it could be. But I think, man, this is one that if I ever do this again, I'm going to call it with this, because I like this. This change is so much more beautiful. And actually, we're about to listen to Sonny Clark do this, and he does a variation on this change. He doesn't do the walkdown. Nice.

Actually, let's listen to Sunny. this is going to be an antidote for the whole episode actually. And just before I forget it from the other thing, I think, wait, what were we doing here? I'm still hearing that other key. There was a lot of one to four, minor one to minor four movement in the original. That's right.

As opposed to the two, five, one. Well, it just goes to show you that that Barry Harris thing of, that they were thinking about this as the four over the two. That's right. It's probably more accurate than we like to give credit to because they're all playing four is going to their five dominant, that's going to minor, minor tonic tariff. But I think, too, tying in with the tango,

that's a very tango-ish harmonic move, right? Hey, let me ask a question, Peter. Yes. Do you like swing? I do. Hand snare drum. Yeah. You hear a little four in there as well, though, too, right?

I think Sonny Clark knew what was up. Yeah. The Sunny Clark trio, by the way. Yeah, he's definitely. Check out the bridge. And look which one's closer. He does like an F-sharp. I like that.

I like that. Yeah, me too. And, oh, did you hear that? Check that out. Listen to what Sunny does here. The floor? The flourish. No, he does the actual melody.

Oh, right, right. Check it out again. It's part of the tune. Yeah. Sonny Clark, melody dogmist. It's not just a bar of rest, as the real book would have you believe. That's right. Isn't that crazy?

That's awesome. That's good stuff. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in today. Shout out to our podcast listeners. Shout out to our YouTube watchers. That's right. Peter Martin. Good stuff, man.

Yeah, good to do this with you, man. I learned a lot. I'm feeling like I want to be dogmatic in some ways. and not in others, but I have a clearer vision on where my dogma leads to me. It's always good to have clear vision. Cool, everybody. Thanks. Until tomorrow. You'll hear it.

To wait. Hold on. Until next time. Sorry. You'll hear it. I thought I could get you on that one.