You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How Do You Handle Mistakes?

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Inevitably it happens to everyone - so what do you do when you screw up on the bandstand? Peter and Adam offer their advice.* Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipe at https://link.youllhearit.com/speakpipe* Support the pod by spreading the word with the link openstudiojazz.link/yhi* Learn more about Open Studio Pro: openstudiojazz.com/proInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Adam. Hey, Peter. Oh, sorry. But it was... Oh, is this part of the show? Are you sure you're... How do you handle mistakes? I'm Adam Mennis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music advice and inspiration and answers coming at you. Lots of answers. We do give answers. We do. Sometimes. Well, we'll see how it goes. We're sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJadio.com for all your jazz lesson needs. That's a good place for answers. It has a lot of answers. That's right.

More answers than questions. Well, we pose plenty of questions, but we tend to answer the ones that we post. We answer our own questions. Yeah, usually falsely. No, I'm just kidding. I have a question for you today, though. Yes. Which is, how do you handle mistakes?

Okay. Wow, we're just going to jump right in. I hear you. Challenge accepted. Very, very poorly. Tantrums galore. You know what? This has been an evolution for me really since I first started playing music.

So darn near my entire life. And that is more like, yeah, how do I handle them going from where I used to be, which was probably like shame, shamefully, you know, to where I am now where, I mean, to be honest, like I enjoy finding. out like solving the challenge of how I'm going to profit from my mistakes like how am I going to get better what am I going to learn from them that does not mean that I try to make mistakes it does not mean that I try to be ill prepared so that I'm going to make mistakes so that I can grow but it does mean that I lean into challenging myself and what I'm going to do be it in a solo or or maybe

to perform something that I'm not 100% under my like I don't feel like I have to be 100% prepared I do want to be like 97% prepare though But but like put myself into situations I'm open to putting myself into situations where there's probably going to be some mistakes Not catastrophic mistakes But I really I really embrace this idea that as artists We being an artist is very different than being a neurosurgeon and that our mistakes like a small percentage mistake is not going to kill somebody It's not going to and so like but the

The beautiful things that can have happen when we are open to going for things that may cause some quote unquote mistakes, but also might cause some beauty or ultimately the ability for our story and our song to make it out into the world and hopefully be pleasurable and edifying to some listeners, that that risk is worth taking. Now, you know, a neurosurgeon, you know, doing the most precise of brain surgery doesn't have that ability. So it's a very different mindset. But I feel like jazz musicians and just musicians in general, like we too many times, tend to, you know, take on this, that same kind of neurosurgeon mentality of like, we have to be these precision

machines and the closer that you get to that, the better. And really, you know, the, the great jazz musicians that I admire didn't play like that. And it's very easy to be like, John Coltrane didn't make mistakes. He was perfect. And from this, from the standpoint of like, I can't point to something and say like, oh, look at that horrible mistake. As in the mistake is that it sounded bad or it sounded ugly or he's playing a wrong note or whatever. Well, I can point out where he's playing a wrong note, you know, and, but it's not because he's coming from a place of like beauty and inclusion and, and, and really trying to make it over that mountain top to that next mountain. And, you know, it's that spirit of adventure and all those different things that, that mistake

becomes this thing of beauty, you know, it's like looking in nature. It's like there's some mistakes. There's some three-legged sheep and some weird stuff out there. But, you know, it's all beautiful. And the creator created it and all this. kind of good stuff. So I think the more we can kind of embrace that. And so like that's, you know, my my approach to mistakes has evolved over the years more to try to embrace that. Now, it's still hard. Like, you know, you're playing in a situation and if your mistakes makes

you feel like you weren't able to put your best foot forwards, like if they're debilitating to the point, that's hard to deal with. And I think that's still the hardest thing for me. And that usually comes out of like the kind of mistakes that were due to lack of preparation or lack of adequate preparation. And I try to avoid being in those situations, but it's inevitable it's going to happen as a professional musician. Especially as you start to work more and have some more success, you're put in more high-pressure situations, more situations that you may not have the optimal amount of time. Just due to life and family and all these things to be able to prepare.

So you've got to try to, you know, just pull yourself up quickly when those mistakes come and get to the good stuff. Not to cover up the mistakes, but to mitigate them. Yeah. And you have to realize, too, that, like, you have to detach. You really, I mean, this is mistakes or or the glory. Like, you have to learn to detach yourself as a person from either one of those things. Like, your worth is not dependent on your last solo. Like, your worth as a person, right?

You're worthy of health and love and happiness, whether or not you can play countdown. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you need to be able, but that's, some people need to hear that, though, man, because you can, you can tell that they're. putting their entire, you know, self-value into how well they're trying to solo there. And it really just kills the music. Like it just makes this joyless experience where you just feel like, oh, they're putting all the stakes on themselves.

And nobody cares about that. And that's a mistake in itself, actually. You know, when you kill the joy in the music, you might nail every note and quote unquote not make a mistake. But that actually is a mistake. So it's kind of a bigger blunder and one that's actually more noticeable to the general listener. Absolutely. And, and like, man, I had an experience, you know, I know we're talking about this gig I just did. It's, it's the only gigs I've done in like six months, you know, pandemic and all.

But, you know, I had a, I've been working on my technique and I've been changing some things up in my technique. And, you know, it was really, really gratifying when it was working, but a couple times it didn't work this weekend. And I literally like, my hand froze, like in the middle of a line. You ever have that happen where it's like, oh, I didn't put the tension in the right place. and I just kind of missed. Right. You know, which it happens. Now, like, there was a time in my life where that might have really, like, hurt the rest of my solo or maybe even the rest of the set.

Like, I would have been like, oh, that was so embarrassing. I can't believe I just made an ass out of myself in front of this whole club or something. You know what I mean? Like, if you're connecting your worth to this solo, then, yeah, of course, it's a tragedy. Like, it's terrible. But if you're kind of, if you can get past that, and it just takes a little bit of, of, of, some personal growth of some self-confidence, then if you can get past that, then that just becomes something that is actually, I noticed for me, like people kind of dug watching me get

out of that. Like they, I could tell they were into like the drama of me sort of going for something, it not happening. And then watching me, you know, dig myself out of this hole in an entertaining way. And I, you know, because I was like confident about it and having fun with it, it ended up being like whenever that would happen it kind of made the solos like it was kind of really fun like it was kind of cool to like figure out a way out of it and and and and not try to like hide the fact that a mistake happened or not try to like you know uh prove that I'm no no no I can actually blah you know like none of that none of that it was like this is this is where we are this is what happened and it's all going to be fine because right you're not watching a person crumble up here

because they didn't, you know, play the right note one time. Like that's, that's, I think, the biggest thing for mistakes with me is like just totally disconnecting it from not even like, I mean, you can go as big as like yourself as a person, but disconnecting it to like this doesn't have to ruin the phrase. It doesn't have to ruin the solo. It doesn't have to ruin the set or the night. Don't let it, don't let it, you know, devolve into that kind of thinking. Well, and it's like, because if you do let it happen, you miss.

and more importantly, you're depriving the world of some really, potentially some really thrilling and interesting saves, if you will. And we all know these great, they're often live performances, but even like stuff in the studio where, you know, mistakes are so artfully crafted after the fact, after the mistakes happen. And like, you know, it's the whole Miles Davis, what's the quote where he's just like, there's not wrong notes. It's just like wrong ways of playing it. I'm paraphrasing now. But it's kind of like, you know, even in classical music, like now you think about classical musicians, and this goes back to sort of my origin story of like,

you know, kind of falling into that thing of like shame, like how many notes did you miss and how perfectly can you play a performance? Like to an audience, and I don't just mean like an audience that does not understand or has never heard the piece. I'm talking about other musicians. Like I'm an audience member. So like I want to go here.

I'd rather hear a thrilling performance that's like 90%, like 10%. mistakes. Because in classical music, it's a little easier to say the mistakes. Or you can say like on a head. Like, okay, you're playing giant steps or like, you know, you can kind of say conceptually, well, that wasn't a mistake. That's what I was trying to play. But or Donnelly, like the notes are what they are in the head. Like maybe you, I'd rather hear somebody play 90% of the notes right and they're swinging and it's like joy coming out of the horn than somebody hitting 100% and the vibe. And the vibe. But the reality is in a hundred percent and the vibe. But the reality, you're having to play in a little way more careful. Now, of course, you want to hit that 100% and have the vibe or, but the reality. of that is it might be 99% it doesn't really matter to the listener even to other musicians what happens is like we let our ego get in the way like we think we're so important that first of all that people are checking us that closely or that like with your example of the gig like you're playing in a sex stat no matter if you think you play it like crap all the time that's still only like one out of six other people playing at any time we're not that important you know we are not so it's it's like

that whole thing of being in service to the music like and if you feel like you're making mistakes it's more like how supportive was I of everybody else because there's five other soloists and my job as a pianist is more important that I support great than I solo great because it's just a bigger part of what's happening on the stage and for the possible you know joy identification of the audience that's what's going to make a difference but it's getting out of that like the nerve going back to the neurosurgeon we want the neurosurgeon to have a very big ego and strive for and hopefully achieve perfection because people are going to die otherwise you know that's not about like oh you know you were saying you're trying out a new technique and like that's going to eventually lead to like beauty coming from the instrument it probably already is a neurosurgeon oh i want to try out this new technique i was working on no hell's no you know try nothing out you know you better perfect it on a cadaver first now now we could but we just to continue your neurosurgeon analogy here like so i performed a successful solo right there was a minor mistake so a neurosurgeon i'm sure they make mistakes but i don't want my neurosurgeon to if he makes a mistake it's a

debilitates him for the rest of the procedure. Like, sure. I want him or her to like, if something, a minor thing happens, that their hands don't start shaking. You know what I mean? Like, they need to have the confidence in themselves that they can get through anything.

Now, of course, we want it to be 100% in neurosurgery, if anything. Well, but I think there is this kind of psychological training, you know. Yeah. And we're not experts on neurosurgeon. And please do, like,

No, any medical. I'm not even going to It's not even just But I mean the idea that I'm just thinking of some kind of a procedure in which you actually do have to hit 100% on certain things. You know, there's nothing in playing jazz music that you, now look, if you just slop your way through everything

and you're so casual about stuff and it sounds like crap. I mean, you're playing the wrong song, you know. Yeah, and you just don't care. Now, what we're talking about is actually a heightened sense of not a more relaxed approach to making mistakes. but a more acceptance that they're going to be in the micro or meta some mistakes for the bigger picture joy of the bigger performance. Be that the whole ensemble, if you're playing solo piano,

that you have many different opportunities to pull up a great performance and that you're not worried as much about basically what is your ego and your possible shame of making mistakes in which you're not viewed as like this virtuoso. And I think that the great thing about jazz is like virtuosity is very much as more enveloped with like your improvise. joy and flare and how you can bring your story out than it is just the traditional technique elements that are associated with classical mastery of an instrument man we were just right before we recorded these this podcast peter we were live on youtube and we were listening to red garland's trio album a garland of red with paul chambers and art taylor is that something you might be interested in yes so we were listening to the opening cut a foggy day and we were listening to pc solo paul chamber solo and he made it an obvious, like, he just didn't hit the right note, right? Like, he just kind of, like, you heard him in the middle of the solo that happened. Does anybody think that Paul Chambers isn't on the Mount Rushmore of bass players because he made that mistake on a record? Like, you know what I mean?

That's right. And he played after that, the solo got even more killing than it was. Like, that's right. He did not let hit that mistake. It didn't phase him at all. Not at all. And, you know, this is like one of the greatest, if not the greatest bass player to ever live. And you think he didn't know that?

You didn't know that better. And look, he knows about mistakes that we didn't even notice. So you know he knew that one. Totally. But I think it's the whole thing, too. It's like, you know, playing jazz successfully, I believe, is very simple in that it's kind of like a net gain of how much cool stuff you put into the airwaves. How much fun stuff that you play. It's kind of like, you know, you know, I love my basketball analogies.

But it's like the best point guards will lead often in assists and sometimes in points. but they'll also lead in turnovers because they're going for something. They're trying to get the ball to their teammates. They're trying to do their job. And you have to put yourself out there. I mean, you know, it's very easy to be like I had zero turnovers in that game. Well, how many assists you have, you know, 0.01 or whatever. Yeah, exactly.

That's a risk-reward situation. It's a risk-reward. And I think Paul Chambers, because, you know, it's not, it's like what, not only what he's done if you know his playing and all the beauty he's brought, but when he makes one mistake, there's so much beauty around it that it's, that it's a risk. really shrouded. It's like a Picasso painting where you could look with a microscope or you could see, oh, there's a smudge with the brush or whatever. But the whole is greater than the parts, you know, and so PC, you know, to be able to stop and be like, ha, ha, he played a wrong note.

It's like, you can't say that there was anything wrong in aggregate on that solo. And so that's, to me, is like egoless playing, shameless playing, really dedicated and very inspired and meticulous playing as well. Well, man, I think if I must say, this was a mistake-free podcast. It really was, man. Having said that, we did not exemplify how to make mistakes. This is more about how do you not make this? If you heard any mistakes, please note them in the comments, like and, you know, if you're

rating or review, please. Thank you very much. Yeah, or how about sending us a speak pipe? Go to you'll hear.com and leave this voice message. Ask us your question. We would love to hear from you. Yes. And talking about that, I'm going to see if I can pull this up as we're talking.

I'm not going to be able to because, you know, I get nervous when I started doing that. But if folks do want to leave us a rating review, how would they do that, Adam? Well, they can do that on wherever they get their podcast on the Apple podcast app on the Android podcast app. Just leave us a seven star rating only. We only take seven stars. Yeah, and we read every rating of review. Yeah, we do. We read every rating of review live on the air.

But, yeah, it's impossible to give us seven stars, but we demand it. So please seven stars only. this is how much our listeners love us. I'm about to read a review that I don't even think did you saw this slip by us for some reason but I want to go back and read this. This is a four star review and this is full disclosure. We don't get all seven stars. We get some five stars and we even get some four stars. Four stars. That's ridiculous. Are we sure we want to read this? Yes, we do. We're that because you know what? We make mistakes. Possibly. The title of this is solid with some drawbacks, four stars. Good musicianship and fun learning. Love Peter and Adam.

If you're interested at all in learning more about black American music to borrow from Nicholas Peyton, Max Roach, and Gary Barts, listen here. Lots of great content all across the board. My only issue is Adam geeking out over harmony and theory behind iconic recordings. Really takes the joy out of the music when you have what seems like just white dudes justifying their love for black music by theorizing and analyzing everything. Who cares about the relative minor of what Stevie was doing? Stevie wasn't even thinking about the theory when he was playing.

Maybe Jacob Collier cares since theory in negative harmony seemed to be his thing. But the actual musicians who created this beautiful music born of struggle, connection, and community you don't. Stick to the music. Stick to the – oh, sorry, I lost it. Hold up. Hold up. Where is that? All right.

Well, while you're turned – Oh, I got it. It sticks to the music as Adam is fuming on the other end of the microphone. Stick the stories behind the music and its impact on the world. Stop with the in-depth analysis. I mean, that just puts a lot of musicians in a very narrow box, though, doesn't it? What about Billy Strayhorn? What about Duke Ellington?

What about Billy Child? What about Stevie Wonder? You mentioned Stevie, and if you think that Stevie Wonder doesn't know what a relative minor is, what the, what is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I, this actually, you know, we're going to kind of address some of these things. I think there's some interesting points brought up by CR 081 from the US of A. But I would just say that stop with the in-depth analysis, point taken. And maybe folks could let us know, you know, leaving a rating review or a comment on the YouTube channel.

Because we want to try to serve people. and we've got a lot of requests and seems like people like the in-depth analysis. And that's kind of what we are as musicians and I think some of the knowledge and help that we can bring. But let us know about that if you agree with that or not. You know, everybody's got their own thing. And I'll just read one more because we got one more. Okay, you ready? Sure.

So glad you're going back to old school. This is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight stars. That's crazy. I don't know how they did it. These are eight actual stars, Adam. You got to see this one. Great to hear that you're going back to the old school format. I started commuting again and really missed my daily or three times a week musical inspiration.

Thanks, guys. This is from Bruce in the USA, so thank you for that. So leave us, yeah, negative positive in the middle. It's all good. Four stars, seven stars. We prefer seven. But, you know, leave your rating and review. Make you, you know what I'm saying?

Put your steak in the, what do they call it? Put your flag. Put your flag in the sand, you know. Stake your claim. State, state your mind. Buddy, a flag's not going to hold the sand. You got to have some solid ground. stake your claim.

State your claim. There you go. The shifting sands, you don't think it's going to hold them? No, it's definitely not. Put your flag down on that quick sand, buddy. Come on. Yeah. All right.

Peter. Until next time. You'll hear it.