You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How to Develop a Single Idea Into a Theme - #34

Episode Date: March 5, 2018

In this episode, Peter and Adam give you some ideas on developing simple ideas into more complex themes. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Menace and I'm Peter Martin and you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast. Today we're going to tell you how to develop a single idea into a theme. We're talking music or life here because I've got a lot of ideas. We're going to actually talk both, I think. We're going to talk music because that's all anybody really cares about hearing from us, which is fine. But I think it's not unlike life and unlike certainly telling stories and stuff. You know, you start with one idea and turning into a theme. Yeah, no, we're talking about improv today.

talking about getting the most with the least, really. You don't have to play everything you know on every single solo, on every single chorus, on every single gig. You can actually get a lot of mileage out of one little nugget of a musical idea. When it's good, we're doing this because we've done, what are we like 30 episodes in now? We're starting to like need to get something out of one idea because we don't have a whole lot more. This whole episode is building a theme off of one little idea. That's right.

Okay, so let's get into it. So I think the first way that you can develop a simple idea is to start very simple and very rhythmically. Okay, so we're not even thinking about like a big, grandiose theme. And this would be the equivalent of you walk into a party and instead of like coming up and saying, I'm the most interesting man in the world, you just come and say, hi-ya. Yeah, totally. What's up? You know, something kind of a little bit rhythmic, right?

Right. Don't handcuff yourself by coming up with this huge theme. and then you have to remember A, but then B, develop off of, you know, start very, very simply, rhythmically and harmonically. Right, right. And I mean, it's a fun thing, too, for the audience, I think, because it's not that people only respond to rhythm, but when you're starting in improvisation, I think it's often the most accessible way to present something to the audience and to invite them in is rhythm,

as opposed to complex harmony or complex melody. You can get to that, but you kind of set them up with some simple, hey, ya, what's up? And then you can start to get in and show your more sophisticated side. Yeah, I mean, if there's a running theme in all of these podcasts, it's that rhythm is king in this music. I mean, it's true. You know, you can get this, like you said, this rich, advanced harmony, but that's really just the icing on the cake. If your rhythm's not strong, none of that matters. So take the time when you start your solo to come up with simple rhythmic ideas that you can then expound upon.

Right. So the next way that you might start to do this is to basically set up a call and response, but start answering yourself. So if you come up with a very simple theme, say you're playing a blues or something, you know, I just, my original theme was, and then I answered myself, and then I can go back. So I'm setting myself up to respond. I'm calling myself out so that I could respond to myself. Nice. Yeah, and so that's the whole thing. Like we're talking about taking a single idea and turning it into a theme. Your first boboida, that's just an idea, but as soon as it's bobidido, as soon as it's got the answer, now it's an actual theme. It's the beginning of a story, right? Right. And, you know, I can, from there, I can take that original idea and, and mold it into different things and then answer it in different ways until it's spinning into something completely different. So I can start out again with, right? So I'm taking it.

that original ba-bu-ba, I'm moving around within the beat. I'm changing where I started, I'm changing where I ended, I'm changing it melodically, but I can go through chorus after chorus doing that. And it's going to be a compelling solo, you know. Yeah. That actually reminded me of one of my favorite solos of Thelonious Monk on Bag's Groove. That's how he starts. And so the two things that we've talked about, starting rhythmically and answering yourself, calling response, he does exactly that. So that first, like classic syncopation, very simple, melodically it's just two notes, so it's like all about the rhythm, and then answer it without even changing the melody just by kind of changing up the rhythm

and the syncopation a little bit. Totally. That's the easiest way to get into it. And I don't know about you, but once I start, once I've kind of, I mean, I'm not thinking really, you know, as I'm improvising, I'm not thinking like, oh, here's the theme. You know, this should happen naturally, but you need to practice getting in this mindset. But once you're going, I start recognizing that theme and then trying to use the concept of it in other places. So if I would have started off my solo with our little, you know, by the end,

I'm thinking like, okay, well, that's, you know, a major third. And maybe I'm starting to really get into this major third idea. So by the time I reach my third, fourth chorus, you know, I'm working off major thirds, you know, knowing that that's the theme of this. I mean, it gives you so much information. And then, you know, you don't really even have to get into these, like, long lines until way later, which is more gratifying for everybody. And the long lines just start to connect your original theme together. Right. And I mean, I think that, well, yeah, the next thing I wanted to talk about works with that, and that is using special.

in terms of developing this single little nugget into an idea. Because now that we've gotten a little call and response, a little bit of rhythm, like there is a theme there. So some people think that then you've got to get more complicated and more complicated. And in some ways you will. That could be rhythmically, it could be melodically, certainly harmonically. But now is the time to really still think about using space so that you're more complex ideas that are making up your theme now, have a chance to breathe. a chance to get recognized and it's the same thing you're going into the party saying hey hi so my name is peter and i do this you you know if you start running on and just talk talk

talk then you're going to throw everybody off you got to still leave that space sometimes when you play something or or say something profound or more complex you even need a little bit of extra space so that the person listening can kind of absorb it right and so as we're playing i think the development of the theme from that little nugget, it's all about curating that. You know, like you plant the seed, but then you got to kind of bring it up and make sure that it's getting stronger, it's getting bigger, but you got to pull the weeds away and stuff and really let it shine. Well, and sometimes the amount of space you leave or don't leave becomes kind of the theme

of the solo, you know? And also I'll add to that. I love this idea of thinking about the space and the complexity of the idea and letting it breathe. And then there's also the idea of, if you're playing a set, say at a club somewhere, the difference of, you know, between song to song, between solo to solo, between, you don't want to start every single solo out with the same weep, the same amount of space. You know, maybe if that's what you just did and you left a lot of space, the first solo of the night, you know, lots of space or whatever, maybe by the third solo, you know, you've already done this kind of spacey beginning to your solo. You're coming in, you know, hot.

You know, maybe as to wake everybody up so that people don't get bored. Right. By what you're, by how you start. I was about to fall sleeping. You played that and it woke me up. So I'm talking about that. I'm a pro. I'm a pro.

Yeah, and I think that that, you know, that really just brings to, you know, us to the point where you're moving these little nuggets along. And at a certain point, like, trust what you started with. That first little hyya, because, bleep, Bob, like, that's, you. your theme, for better or for worse. And really, there's usually no wrong notes or no little wrong, I guess these are motifs. Is that what they call them? Kind of, you know, like a really small, it's not even a theme yet. It's just a little small musical idea. So it's so small that there's almost no way for it to be wrong. Now, you might play it wrong if you don't play it with confidence or play it with the right feel or the right volume or whatever. But any little

nugget like this can be developed into something and should be. So it's just a matter of curating it and developing it, giving it that space, and making it into something. You know, the classic one, and I'm sure where I pulled this tweet up from, is Sunny Rollins Blue 7, right? This is what everybody talks about is, you know, starting very simply and then develop, spinning this theme into something very grand by the end. Yeah. So if you want a great example of this, check out that record that's on Saxophone Colossus. Saxophone Colossus, exactly. You'll hear it. That's it for today's episode of You'll Hear It.

We'll be back tomorrow, but if you need more information, you can go to you'll hear it.com.