You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How To Develop Set Lists - #105

Episode Date: May 14, 2018

Today, Peter and Adam give some strategies on creating good set lists See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Menace and I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Today we're going to give you some ideas on how to develop set lists. Cool. You know, I always have gigs coming up and I could use to get into these ideas. So go ahead. Oh, you want me to participate? Well, you can participate. I'll start, but you can participate.

I was going to try to be funny, but you messed up my timing now. That's okay. I was going to say download a copy of Microsoft Word. That's your first step. How to develop a set list. I'm so sorry. That didn't happen. You're in the joke?

Yeah. The humor part, right. So, okay, yeah, so this is a question, I think, on the Facebook page, open studio Facebook page. That's right. And thank you for that. Just a reminder, you guys can go to you'll hear it.com. You can do a voice question, which is kind of like an updated voicemail system answering machine without the cassette. You can comment there.

We've got a place there, and we love to hear your questions because we've done like over 100 episodes, and it's going to dry up at some point. We're still cool, but keep the questions coming, right? That's right. Yeah. So I think that this, you know, about set lists, this is really, you know, begs the question of programming, you know, and how you put the flow together. And first, I think we should probably just talk about, you know, do you need a set list or not? Because I think there's some situations, and I know, you know, for me and I'd love to hear from you, Adam.

There's definitely times when we don't have set lists, but there has to be, you know, it's usually an ensemble that's plays together a lot. And then somebody's either leading it or there's a lot. enough kind of co-op thing that you feel comfortable kind of doing it freely based upon either the venue and the room knowing the different options but you usually have to have a pretty big repertoire and like everyone has to have the music pretty much memorized so you're not shuffling through pages and that's a fun thing when everyone can do that because it's kind of like you're improvising the set list but you still need to put just as much thought into just like an improvised solo as opposed to composing a solo a composition you know you have to put just as much thought into

it, but you have to do it on the fly. Yeah, that's actually a really fun thing is when you have a band that's been playing together for a long time and everybody knows the music so well and you're in a really great room with a great crowd that are super into it. Yeah. I love then to kind of feel the room out and decide what I want to do next on the fly based on how I'm feeling and how I think the crowd is feeling, what I think they're going to enjoy next or try to set them up as we go along. But in general, you know, if I don't know that's going to happen, I like to make a set list. And that doesn't mean that I stick with the set list. Right.

You know what I mean? If I'm feeling like it's not what's about to happen isn't what I want to happen, I'll definitely call audibles and do pretty much all the time. But I like to have some kind of fail-safe of just like, okay, if I just do this, it'll be fine. Yeah. Well, and I think, yeah, I love that concept. I would say you pretty much always, except for the most strict kind of programmed concert that would require it,

require it, that there's always at least a chance for an audible because we don't know what's going to happen, even within an individual tune usually. We don't know the length. And I'll find for myself, even when I think I know the exact flow of the set that I want to do,

we usually program more tunes as opposed to less because you don't want to be panicking, like, oh, what are we going to do? So if things start to stretch out, which is good. I mean, there's usually a reason that they stretch out some great solos. Yeah. Just the moment requires it.

You got to cut something usually. You ever do this one where you're kind of like vamping at the end of the tune? And then it's turned into the groove that's very similar to the next tune. But not similar enough that you could just go straight in. Right, right. Yeah. And then you have to really think about like, oh, man, why do we put that one in three? This next one's in three.

Like, you know what I mean? Yep. Well, I think that too, if you are going to kind of go without a set list or like, with more of a general one, you have to have a really good knowledge about exactly what you're talking about. It's like the different keys that you're tuned, your tune possibilities are, the different vibe of them, how they start and finish. Because you can really, I think the transitions between tunes where you have the silence, of course, maybe you're talking to the audience, maybe not.

But if you aren't talking, that transition is very important, like the length of it and what they hear at the end of one tune versus the beginning of another one. And some types of tunes in the jazz idiom, you know, the way that we play them, they always end a certain way. But some have that vamp or maybe there's a drum solo. Maybe there's some possibility for variations. So you don't actually know exactly how it's going to end. Usually we know how something's going to start. Right. That we usually know.

But how that transition goes is important. I mean, you know, we screw it up sometimes. It's not the end of the world. If you're playing good or if you have two tunes in the same key, even they're both in three. If it's good, it's good. Yeah. So only the transition is kind of like, ugh. Yeah. But most people don't know why.

So I think one thing that was mentioned in this Facebook comment was, you know, maybe ideas for one thing would be like, what tune, what kind of tune would you start a set with? Right. What kind of tune would you start a second set with? I think that's a very intriguing question and something that I think about on every gate, what do I want to start with? Yeah. Because it's going to set the tone. Absolutely. For the night.

You know, you want to come out of the gate burning? Do you want to come out of the gate? I mean, sometimes I like to come out of the gate with a ballad even. And I know that seems counterintuitive. Well, I think for the right room, the right audience, the right set, the right, you know, that's interesting because when you play a ballad to start with, that's probably the most obvious way to get people to lean in and listen. That's right. And sometimes either the venue or the length of the gig or even the audience kind of requires that, or maybe not requires it, but it would benefit from that. And so I think that's kind of more of the situations I've gotten in when I think that there's maybe going to be a challenge to kind of keep people's attention that you almost have to kind of get them to lean in at the beginning.

And then sometimes the room just sort of feels like it wants that. You know, like the audience is really so hyped up to hear you. That's fun. Like there's kind of an electricity. And then to kind of, you know, then you don't have to hit them with something burning. You know, a ballet can kind of be a nice way to take that edge off, but also get them to lean in. That's right. And it's hard, though, because it's very easy to screw these things up.

You think you have a read on it, and you start. You're like, that wasn't the best. Yeah, starting with the ballad is that's pro-level stuff. It is pro-level. You've got to have the confidence to pull that off. It does work probably better even, I would say, the second set when you know it's the same crowd. Right, right.

You know what I mean? You've already got them, hopefully. You've already got them. Yeah, and after that ballad to start the set, you're going to want to hit them pretty hard after that I would imagine. Right. And, you know, I spend a lot of time, thinking about the first tune, and I agree with you, I think that's the most important.

It sets the tone, and it's also like just like when you're meeting someone. It's not like if you meet someone, they're kind of come off as a jerk. You know, this whole thing of first impressions, they don't necessarily last forever, but you've got to work a lot harder to get rid of that, you know, so if you come off sounding like a jerk on the first tune, yeah, maybe people aren't going to leave because they paid already and they're like, but you're going to be working two, three tunes to turn them back around. Yeah, it's your overture. It's your overture. Yeah, you're definitely setting it up.

And actually, that's a great analogy, the overture. If you think about that in opera, what does the overture do? It's usually like, you know, upbeat, but kind of light, introducing some of the themes that are going to come, but nothing too challenging. That's right. And I like to do that, especially at the first set, especially if it's a trio gig, piano trio, because we don't have a lot of the bells and whistles of a vocalist or horn players and stuff. And it's already a challenge to keep people's interest. And I love to start with something that just is going to sound great, that is not too challenging for the band that we're going to fall. on our faces, you know.

Yeah. And it's not too challenging. I mean, challenging enough for the listener, but to intrigue them and get them to draw in a little bit, but mainly just something that's going to sound great, like an overture. Yeah, I mean, you know, your safe bet on this is, like you said, something that the musicians are going to be comfortable on because it's also, you know, maybe you've had your sound check,

but as we all know, when you put 250 people in a room, it totally changes the way the room sounds. So you're going to have to adjust. Maybe the piano feels a little different. You want to warm up on it. So, you know, the thing you could think about safe bet, and I think what most people think is like something straight down the metal. Medium tempo, not too fast, not too slow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A hello kind of song. A hello. That's a good one. But I would not discount the idea of either starting the opposite of any of those extremes of like, you know, a ballad or something completely burning to start because that could be, that element of surprise can also be your friend. And again, for a second. For a second set, especially, when you get a feel for the crowd. Like a lot of times the second set, I will, well, I mean, it depends. If they're turning the house, then you have a totally different crowd.

But you do have a feel for the room in the evening. And, I mean, you know, the main thing with change, when they turn, when you're playing for a separate audience, the second set, you know, like second set audiences are different than first set audience in most cities. They're drunker. They're drunker. They usually don't have to get up to go to work the next day. So they're either independently wealthy or they're broke, one of the,

other. Yeah, they usually have older kids. I mean, it can be a lot of different things, but they're always looser. You know, another thing I'm thinking about this as we, as we're kind of getting into this idea of the first tune and thinking about ways I've used this in the past is sometimes I'll use the first tune of a set, not just to set the tone with the audience, but with the band. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? To tell my musicians like, all right, you know what, Kat's like, we are going to go in hard on this set. Like, get, like, hold on your hats because everything we're Uncle Adam is driving. That's right. No, we are going to try to like go in. in really hard and fast on everything.

This is going to be, people are going to be like, this is unbelievable the whole time. That's what I want. But I'm not feeling of that all the time. Sometimes I want to come in and be like, we are going to, you know,

ease our way in. This whole set is going to be a whisper. You know, sometimes I feel like that about sets, too, that like you don't have to do a huge range of, I think people think they have to do this huge range of styles and colors. And maybe sometimes you want to, but you can also,

You know, you need to gauge how you're feeling. If you're feeling like tearing it up, by all means, you know, let it go. Let it fly. If you feel like doing a whole set of lullabies, you know, if you can pull that off, do it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I like your concept of the first tune being for the band as well, because I think that is important. It's like that sweet spot, I think, on the first tune is finding something that's comfortable and invigorating for the band and that everyone's got something to play. on so that they feel engaged in the gig, but is not too difficult that you could have a train

wreck because you're not warmed up. Or, you know, sometimes things with the sound, if they're going to happen, or like, well, for sure, any adjustments you want to kind of get done during the first tune and you're adjusting to the room, even if you sound check, you know, the crowd's there, so it's different now. So that's just a great time to really have something that the band, you know that they can sound good on and be engaged. And then that's going to work better for the audience anyway. It's true.

And, I mean, I've screwed up before on set lists by. trying to have the first tune a little bit too tricky. Like we think we've got some tricky arrangement. Like, don't do that because you're always going to be a little more nervous or uncomfortable or something funny is going to happen on the first tune once you think you're comfortable, but you're never as comfortable as you are later in the set. It's going to set a bad time for the rest of the same. Man, we could do about four of these episodes just on this because I'm thinking of a bunch of stuff.

Oh, setless. It's an art form in and of itself. Another thing he was asking about is a good place for a ballot. And we kind of, you know, just talked about, you know, the ballad possibility of starting a set. That's probably like the rarest place you would put a ballot is number one. You know, I,

my go-to is the ballad second to last. Yeah. The penultimate tune of the set, like the slowest ballad for sure. Yep. Because you've already kind of gone on this journey. You bring them down. And then, of course, that sets you up for a last tune,

which can be very energetic. Big finish. A big finish and leave everybody out of it. This is a circus. That's all we're running. But that said, I've definitely closed shows with ballads. Yeah. You know, as the big finish.

I mean, my band, the 442s, one of our most requested songs is our, it's like an incredibly slow, you know, slow-paced song, and we use that as a closer. And it still gets, you know, standing ovations and everybody likes it just as much as we were end with something high energy, you know. Well, and that brings up the thing, like, I think because of the kind of venues you guys play with that band, that's a great, like, people are really listening. The sound is usually really good. You're playing in some kind of classical halls as opposed to jazz clubs.

That's true. And your type of audience, you know, you have that trust with them that they will be pleased with hearing all the little intricacies and the beauty of the instruments and the clarity of that, that ballot. I've, you know, I've heard you guys do it as an encore, which is really cool. We use it as an encore, too, yeah. So I think that that's a very good use of the right tune for the right audience, the right venue with the right group, because you always have to, that's the things that will really decide these. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think that like where to put a ballot or where to put a tune. Tunes are almost like, you know, piano voicing is right.

It's on their own, it doesn't make much sense. But what happens before and after? Absolutely. That's really the key of all this stuff. I mean, I hit on it a little at the beginning, and I would just say a practical way to learn that, like the transitions. Like if you want to know how two tunes are going to work in succession as a progression, is really think about and even play or maybe take some live recordings

and put him next to each other, Because it's very much like how you put an album together in the order of tunes. Like, think about how this song sounds and feels the end of it. And then how many seconds there's going to be approximately before you start the next one. And then what it sounds like, you know, when you start the next tune. Because silence is a very deep thing at a concert or a recording. The amount of silence and what happens during that silence, where there's no music happening. But if it's like people clapping or if it's really silent.

And then what the sound. Because that's when people really lean in because they're like, whatever you, finished with, that's still kind of ringing in the air, and that's the last thing people heard. So that's there until you play something else. Do you ever think about keys? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, the general rule there is you don't want to hit two keys in a row.

But I found that you have to kind of test that because you can get away with it sometimes if the vibe, you know, is enough different, you know, the meter and the groove and that kind of thing. I don't think as much about keys, but more about, like, kinds of chord progressions. Like if I just played a rhythm changes with a lot of one, six, two, five, I might not play like it could happen to you, which has like a lot of one six, two. You know what I mean? Like I might go to some kind of minor tune or something like that, even if it's in the same key, you know, relatively. I mean, I really think the top level to get to, and this can actually be done in the set list or it can just be done as you go kind of just as a free thing is to, you know, it's almost like, how we want to improvise.

You get to the end of your tune, and then you finish, and then you just trust yourself to just open your ears up as much as you can. But, I mean, really concentrating. And, like, what is it that you hear next? Like, what kind of tune? Maybe you start to hear a rhythm or something,

and then you quickly go through the catalog of available tunes and see which one matches the best. Yeah, yeah. You do that nine times out of ten, you're going to put a good set together. So you have to do this. The reality is, I mean, it takes the perfect set of musicians

having a big repertoire to be able to do this on the fly. So you need to kind of do it in advance somewhat. But you can practice that and develop that as far as developing a set for sure. Yeah. I think that's kind of the key. If you're going to take one thing away from this, it's that there's not really like a set formula of like, all right, we're doing a medium swing and then up tempo swing

and then Latin tune or whatever. There's not, I don't think people at high levels are thinking like that at all. It's about really being in tune with your repertoire and keeping your ears open, as you said, Pete, And like, you know, if you do that, you'll hear it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the You'll Hear It podcast. You can go to you'll hear it.com to get more information, submit a question, or just say hello. Well, you can do that.

Absolutely. All right. And if you like what you heard, please leave a review and a rating below. Thanks.