You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How to Listen to the Form

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Keeping the form. Peter and Adam respond to a listener's question and breakdown how the masters keep the form, referencing Miles Davis Live at the Plugged Nickel. Listen to Miles, Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter. Hot, Hot, Hot! Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipe: link.youllhearit.com/speakpipeSupport the pod by spreading the word with the link youllhearit.com Learn more about Open Studio Pro: openstudiojazz.com/proInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Yo. Do you know where we are if I play you this? It's close by. Actually, I know exactly where that is. Plug nickel. Chicago, Illinois. Shaitown, Quincy City.

Miles Davis, Quintet. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music, advice, inspiration, and definitely dope tracks today. I can already tell. I know. It's going to be a really dope track Wednesday.

I guess this would be Wednesday. Dope track Wednesday. Dope track Wednesday. No, we got a speak pipe. Do you know what a speak pipe is, Pete? I do know. What is it? It is a mechanism whereby our dear listeners through technological wonders provided by the speak pipe company can leave a veritable voice message, voice memo.

Yeah. Old school. Remember the answering machines? Did you ever have one of those? Yeah. Two cassettes. That would be something you might be interested. Not anymore.

You know, because they had always broke and they were annoying. But they had, fun fact, we actually still have an answering machine in our house. No, you don't. We have a landline. No tapes, though. Digital. It's all digital. Do you have the box, the caller ID box?

Remember those? No. Come on, man. We're not dinosaurs, man. We're bronosaurus, but we're not teradactyl. So if they want to leave a question, I'm sorry. So if you would like to leave us a voice message. I'm going to fix that for you right now.

That's right, Harry. So you can go to YuleRare. Please leave a voicemail so you can stop pressing those buttons. No, no, no. You can go to You'll hear.com and just leave us a voicemail right there. And ask us your question like Nico has. Nico's been a long time listener. Well, and just to clarify, you said, leave us a message.

That's what the speak pipe is. Yeah. Is this leaving us a voice message? And some folks that are a little bit less than confident, which I would certainly put myself in this category at times, feel like, oh, I can't do that because I'm going to leave a message and sound stupid. And Peter and Adam are going to put us on, put me on the podcast. You can't sound any more stupid than we already sound.

There's that. And then there's also, you can audition. Like, you can leave the message and then play it back with our advanced speak pipe system. Oh, boy. Speak pipe. Speak pike, speak pipe. It's like you're the, you're the developer of this or something.

Yes, the speak pipe corporation out of Silicon Valley. Yeah, you don't have to submit it. You can do it over. So here is Nico's speak pipe. You know, what is her? Try it again, Nico, please. Let's go. Here we go, Nico.

Come on, buddy. Here, like I said, Peter. I'll blend tell you what it is later. Apparently so. Here is Nico. I love that. That's a killer high. Hey, Adam.

Hey, Peter. This is Nico from Sacramento. I'm a big fan of the show. I've learned a lot. I learned a lot from the courses. I am curious about Miles Davis at the Plug to Nickel. I'm like deep listening. Love it.

And one thing that from this group that I'm having trouble grasping is how they hang on to the form. There are songs that we know like Autumn leaves that they move around a lot. And I'm struggling to kind of hear how they keep the form, though I know they do. but maybe some musical analysis on one of those tunes. That would be great to kind of just learn a bit, what are these masters doing to grasp to the form. But not playing what's expected, obviously not playing roots sometimes and all of that.

But what is Herbie doing? What's going on? All right, cheers to you all. Thank you. Nico, I love this question. First of all, because we get to listen to Miles Davis live at the plug, Nichols. Second of all, Peter is bringing up a book here

that we have from our friend of the show, the great Ron Carter, who will be on the pod very soon. He will be on this show next week. Stay tuned for that. We could actually ask him this very question. Do you think Peter's looking now because Ron Carter has a book of all of his different versions of Autumn Leaves from the Miles Davis. I mean, just five different versions.

There's several from Miles' band that they played Autumn Leaves. I think one of them is from the plug-neckel. I thought so, and it is, in fact, from, but there's a couple different nights. Yeah, so this is from the 23rd, December 23rd, 19th. I think this is it. Okay, cool. Well, let's see. You'll follow along and see if, and we can certainly talk about Ron's bass lines.

We could also, though, talk about what Herbie plays and what Tony plays and what Miles plays. Also, all very important. But Nico, it's a great question because what the band at this point was doing, I think, was actually playing with our expectations of how to mark the form were at that time. And I think, too, I mean, the answer to party a question, I would say, you know, how are they able to hold on to the. form. This was not their first rodeo when they were at the plug nickel. You know what I mean? Like they had played these tunes a lot and actually in our first

interview which I believe is still on the YouTube channel. Check that out from about four or five months ago. With Ron Carter. With Ron Carter. We talked about this some. Yep. And the fact that there was this core repertoire which is a big part of the plug nickel gig

and all their gigs there. They had new tunes that they were writing and rode and they were on like the Sorcerer and Riot and all those tunes, but they were still playing for years. I mean, from like 1962, well, from before that, with Miles, but with this particular quintet, first with George Coleman and then a little bit of Sam Rivers and Wayne Shorter, these tunes many, many times, Autumn leaves, Stella by Starlight, all of you, Franceing, you know, all these different things.

So as Nefertiti was happening, they would be playing this kind of stuff. Because remember how he said that, I believe in that interview, he told us that, you know, they recorded those tunes. and they didn't play them for a long time. Yeah. They kept going back to, you know, and they didn't even rehearse a lot because Miles was just like,

and they didn't even really sound check. They just come out and start playing. Yeah, they get off the plane, they get on a bus, they go to the concert, and Miles would just start with Autumn leaves, much like he did here. And because they all live separately

in New York with their own families and separate apartments. Remember he said that as well. Yeah. They didn't have a lot of interaction beyond this. So I think that the short answer is that there was a trust there. I mean, first of all,

very high level of musicianship across the board, of course. Totally. Very refined and nuanced understanding of form all the way to including, which it doesn't always the drummer. I mean, it does with all great drummers, of course, but Tony Williams, you know, a master of understanding form and composition and incredible composer himself. But there was such an understanding and a commitment on an individual level to a tune like

autumn leaves that that gave great freedom to be able to stretch things. So in terms of understanding, they knew the form and they knew how each other played it. And there was a trust. Now, did that mean they ever got off a little bit? They did. But were they ever lost several of them? I don't think so. Maybe somebody zoned out for a couple of seconds and was a little lost.

But there was not a preponderance of members of the group lost at any time. I got to be honest, man, I just zoned out a little bit there. I noticed that. But that's why we're both here. But you were there. That's why I got a little aggressive. And I was like, I'm going to come more than 50%. Let's listen.

Let's listen. And let's see what we can hear. We both know this track. very well. But let's just with this ear for Nico's question about the form and how they might be marking it. Let's see if we can give some clues. I think this is a great place

to kind of go because Ron goes into the, are you watching? I am watching it. So I'm looking at Ron Carter's chartography. Five reinvented transcriptions of all the least. It is indeed the same version from the 23rd of December 1965.

Yeah. So he's got that whole, was that like a dotted coroner thing that was happening there a while? Yeah, yeah. And I would have thought of that as like a triplet thing. I remember when I heard that, but it's not. It's definitely, they have a notitated here as a dotted quarter situation. And so I think, Nico, this one might be the first opportunity where you might be like, oh, where's the form and how do they know where that is? Let's back it up a little bit and hear that section again.

Herbie. So, I mean, there's, you know, really what you have there is Ron laying things down. And if you see the transcription or if you kind of start to even be able to conceptualize it in your head, you don't even have to think. You don't have to read music to understand this. But if you understand that, like, Ron Carter is actually what's holding the whole thing together. Absolutely. He is the glue there. Now, that does not mean that, like, Herbie or Tony don't know what's going on or Miles.

And Miles kind of, like, a lot of people think, oh, he wasn't sure what was happening. So he'd pull back. I don't think that's the case. Yeah, I agree. But I think that Ron's stability, even though he's doing something that's kind of unconventional, he's not hitting you over the head with it. Like when he goes, boom, dung, ding, ding, ding. ding ding ding ding dong and he hits that e flat major that's the first kind of one and a lot of lesser bass players would be like really lean into that but Ron's phrasing it like a melody because that's what it is that baseline but notice notice on the next chorus the top of the next chorus yeah I might not be right about this but it sounded like he did lean into and was very clear about that B flat that when he gets to the tonic right after the two five in that very first it's like I mean he starts walking yeah for sure

But it becomes super clear. At least that's where I caught the form again very clearly. I was like, oh, there it is. Yeah, well, that was that great tension and release that absolutely starts walking, which is really the first time he's straight walked in this whole thing. And so it's like, you know, Ron Carter has that ability to kind of deconstruct the form from the bottom up. But it's actually a very specific thing that he's playing. But because he's doing it so confidently, he doesn't have to like, you know, really, you know, accentuate this.

think of patience or anything. He's not going to lose Tony Williams. Exactly. And then Tony's like, he actually resolves on like two or something that bar before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is a very specific thing to kind of keep things a little bit off-kilter and to heighten, I think, the actual release once it starts walking at the beginning of that next chorus. Makes it even more exciting as opposed to everyone just kind of resolving together than like the expected thing. Let's listen to that transition again from that chorus to the next course. There. Yeah, Miles is right. You know, that sets that off. bar nine

now it's very clear what's going and it's all about listening to Ron if you're listening to Ron if you're listening to Ron even when things get a little bit shady which they certainly are brilliant shaders this whole rhythm section

if you're listening to Ron he throws in so many curve balls followed by a fastball straight down the middle and it'll set you up just to knock you down and it'll knock you down just to build you back up

it's the great I mean it's what great people who are good at forms do and there's no one better than Ron Carter. I'm so excited that we talked to this guy. I know, I know. And it's like, you know, hearing him talk about how, like, every time you have four quarter notes in a measure

with a particular chord, remember he said you have infinite possibilities. You start to understand, like, at first it seems like, okay, his lines are so logical that there's like a simplicity and an order that's built into it, you know, that's so satisfying. But once you start to understand how he can, like, pull the rug out,

He still pulls the rug out, even while being that solid foundation in such interesting ways and allows like Tony to dance on top of that. Herbie to just jump in and out, you know, and miles to like lay out or to come in like right in the cut. I mean, it's truly like it's like a magic carpet. Yeah. It's a magic carpet. But he'll be kind of like, like you said, like he'll be pull out the rug. You know, like not even. Well, it could be like harmonically.

Sometimes he's like straightforward. But then he'll, he totally leaves the situation. He'll give you like a. Like he'll just. give you like a straight up here's where it is you know it's very it's very conversational and and and very like it's continual but in such an in like such a non-automated way like such an interesting way like there's such a just a very demanding and continuous logic to it yeah but in so many different ways you know and it's it's um i you know as i'm watching the chart go by you really

focus in and like like you say it's like if you focus on ron even if you're not not looking at it, but if you're looking at the transcripts. No, if you just listen around. Yeah, if you just listen, like that starts to make the form make so much more sense. And I think that we can learn, you know, and maybe to answer Nigo's question, ultimately, it's like, how do you get to that point where you can really know forms and stuff? As much of it is away from your instrument as it is playing. Like, there's three things I think about for really learning forms.

Playing them like, no matter what instrument you play, like just working on it on your own, playing the tune a lot, playing it at different temples, maybe playing it in some different keys. But then there's, so that's like, like one part, just practicing on your own, like getting sets and reps and like really knowing what's going on, making those connections between the different sections, between the chord structure, all those kind of things, the melody, the root movement. And then that's bucket one. The bucket two is like listening to recordings and really getting inside of them like this, where you're concentrating sound on the bass or really concentrating on the piano or whatever.

And then the third part of it, I would say, is playing with other people. So like, that's like actually putting the application in because if you're a pianist, doing a lot of solo piano, you can think that you really know a tune and know a form, but you might be messing up the form, but you can't tell. It's like if you're colorblind, you could be like, wow,

I have a fantastic blue hoodie on. Well, how do you know it's blue? Because you're just looking at yourself. It looks great to me. Yeah. You know, but you have to have some kind of,

some kind of reference point of playing with other people to feel like, okay, what happens when things don't happen the way that I'm planning them or expecting them. Or expecting them happen.

Yeah. You got to find where that, where that, what happens when the bass player plays a B natural on a G minor core. Are you going to be like, oh no, I know where I'm in the form

are you going to be like, wait, am I a bar later? I think the biggest, the hardest thing for this one to grasp is what Tony's doing because I just, well, let's listen to just

30 more seconds. Then I want to play another version of Autumn leaves. Yeah. That's totally different. Because Tony's not giving a piece. No, and he's even reversing it.

The ride pattern. That's like, wait, the beat turn over. You know, like you can't play. He was a young dude. He was trying,

he was trying some stuff. You got to be confident in this. And then Rob, switches over on that with Miles. But the thing is, is Tony is not doing what is done in another very famous version of autumn leaves. Listen to what this drummer does. This is our Blakey on Cannonball Adderley's report. Sam Jones, Hank Jones, Miles Davis.

First of all, just shout out to the intro. Classic. Even there, Blakey is so clear. So this is an example of a drummer that is going to, like, mark the first. form like he is a cartographer. Not a chartographer. Not a chartographer. A cartographer.

Map expert. Switch to brushes there. We get a record recorded with this kind of intimacy and clarity in this day and he. Wow. Those are brushes. Like Art Blakey's here. Just listen to the end of every phrase or section and listen to what R. Blakey and San Jones is like 59?

Yeah. I love Hank Jones on here. I love that Miles wasn't. The biggest hangout. Yeah. This is great. Switch to sticks there. Everything has resolved so cleanly.

Blake's just hanging in the cut, too. So again, just to juxtapose. Like, very, I mean, obviously, Miles is playing on this. Cannibal's playing this. It's very similar, like you said, six years apart. But it's just so clear what's happening between Sam Jones and Blakey, not doing much. Not like being explicit with marking the form. Yep.

But just marking the big stroke so far. The chorus is when the saxophone solo came in changing the stage. Let's hear if anything happens here. Nothing. Nothing from putting you there. No, he's just like. He's just going to. Like, Solis still going to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. So tasteful. And I mean, I think, I mean, we have to, next time we talk with Mr. Carter, I'm sure Sam Jones, I mean, I can hear it was a big influence on him. on Ron Carter. Also a cellist and bassist as was Ron Carter. Fun little fact there.

Awesome. Thank you, Nico, for the question. Great stuff. Great question. Thank you, Peter. Thank you. Until next episode, you'll hear it.