You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - How to Work Hard (in jazz & in life)

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

Forget the boring stuff, embrace the discomfort and get past the last 10%. Peter and Adam discuss how they work hard.Check out Open Studio Pro hereHave a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeSupport the pod by spreading the word with the link youllhearit.com Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. It is Monday, and we usually don't do this, but we've got a really fun speak pipe we're going to take care of today. Oh, speak mic Monday. Speak pipe Monday. No, not a new feature. Not a new feature.

Maybe. We'll see. I'm Adamannis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear podcast. Music advice and inspiration coming at you. We've got an inspiring story coming at you today. We are sponsored by Open Studio.

Go to Open StudioJazz.com for all of your jazz lessons needs, of course. And leave us to speakpipe. Go to You'll Hear at.com. And speak into the... the pipe. Can I just throw something out there because we're coming up on the end of 2021. Did you know that? That's the end of the year right there. That's the end of your son. We're going to wooch our way out. Can we talk about the people who don't like the whoosh? We've got some people who love. We've got whoosh positive feedback. We've got whoosh negative

feedback. You know what? Could you tweet at us please, dear listeners? Oh my God. Are you inviting chaos here? What's going on? We want to know because we can get rid of it. It's just a button. But first of all, in case you don't know what we say, because it might be so organically linked. to the show that you don't even notice. It's like a subtle little sound effect. But show them, this is the whoosh. And this is another whoosh. They all sound the same.

They all sound the same. But we use those as a little bit of a marker, a little bit of a doorway, perhaps to another segment on the pod here. Yeah, yeah. So are you pro? And I'm not asking. Let me ask you.

Obviously, you're pro. It's an artistic decision. We're not going to do whooshes by committee here, Peter. It's not how this podcast works. Well, no, no. We might, you know what? But really, if everybody hates it, we're still going to do it? This was your idea, and I hated it at first.

And now I love it. So I don't want to get rid of it. Anyway, tweet at us. We are at, you'll hear it. And we occasionally even check our Twitters. But let us know, are you pro-woosh? Are you team whoosh? Are you team noosh?

I'll blend and tell you what it is later. Exactly. That's right. Let us know what's going on. And I want to just highlight one thing. We're coming up on the end of the year, right? 2021 is about to be over. There we go.

You know, the verdict's still out. I remember last year when everybody was just like, 2020's, get it out. We can't wait for 20, 21 when we're back to norm.

We talked about this. We were like, yeah, I don't know if you all realize that 2021's not going to be that like a bowl of cherry. I mean, we wanted to be a clean break

right on January 1 at midnight. It's not how that works. It's not how that works. But, you know, we're positive here. We're always looking, you know, we know things are going to get better. And they are in a lot of ways.

And, you know, we're trying to be part of the, part of the solution here. But one thing I was thinking about, it's always fun at the end of the year to think about either, you know, things that you've already got going, changes you want to make. But I'm always especially interested in like picking up on trends in your own life. And so I just want to give a big shout out to you, Adam, and what you're doing at the Open Studio Pro community and program because, you know, whatever 2021 downside it has, one huge upside has been the Open Studio Pro, which really didn't, I mean, it existed, but not really it to be.

beginning of the year. This has been the year when it's really coming to its own and became a thing. Yeah. And you can go, you know, go to Open Studio Jazz slash pro. You can learn all about it. But I'll just tell you right now, it is like the most, it is a totally unique thing that isn't happening anywhere else in this, you know, jazz community right now online. Adam is doing amazing live sessions, as well as other folks that we have, other guest teachers that are, that are regularly in the full Chris Parks. Bob DeBoo. Bob DeBoo. Even you, come on. I show up sometimes. but the idea is that, you know, it's a curated access to the vast library of lessons we have now at OpenCio Jazz. But more importantly, it's access to the community of other folks that are practicing every day trying to get better.

And it's like going to the gym. Like you can build, you know, if you're richer, you've got a sugar daddy or sugar mama. You can build a gym in your own garage. That's fine. Yeah. You can invite a personal trainer over. But how much more fun to go to a clean, vaccinated gym perhaps? We're losing our audience here.

But I will say that I'm thank you for. He's blushing. Well, but here we have a question from Ege. Ege is a long time Open Studio Pro member. I'll tell you Ege's story after we listen to his question because it's amazing. Okay. Hello, Adam and Peter. This is Ege, a long time open studio member.

And so for everybody listening, just don't think about it. Just get a membership. It will change your life. What a set up. So my question is about your work ethic. You guys have an incredible work ethic that I've never seen before. It blows my mind every single day, how much work you. put in how much quality you put in to all your content.

And I want to ask about the boring stuff that may come day to day. And how do you deal with that? I'm sure as with every business, there are some quite boring stuff. And in music, that could be like booking places, rehearsals, dealing with people. And on education side, it could be like preparing the sheets, like recording, having the setup ready. And as we're all humans, you're probably also not thrilled every day. to put in the best work, but you still do it.

You still give the best advice, do the amazing work. So how do you push yourself? How do you find the motivation every day, even to do the boring stuff? What pushes you through it as you do this amazing kind of jobs, as you create this amazing content? Could you talk a little bit about that? Thank you. Thank you very much. All right.

It's a great question. It's incredible. I mean, this is probably one of the deepest questions we've ever had. And I'm not surprised because Ege has been on a mission. Like, you talk about things that happened during the pandemic. This guy works his ass off. He knows he's not scared of hard work. And so much so that I think when the pandemic started and we started Open Studio Pro,

we started the daily out of practice session. I think he was even like an engineering student. I don't know, but he's had a dream to be a jazz pianist. And starting in the fall semester, he started at Conservatory at the Hague to play jazz piano. And that's just from... Just as past fall. Just as past fall. And that's just his own hard work.

He's been an open studio member for a long time, but we do not take credit for that because he's just really, really laser focused on this. And, you know, it's funny. I hear from him now about, like, being a conservatory and playing. And he's like, go to jam. He's like telling all our members, like, go to jam sessions. Listen to the bebot.

Like, he's got everything that we talk about, you know, listen and play with other people. He's in there preaching now. So I'm just, we're just so. super proud of you, Ege, if you're listening. It's just incredible. Yeah. And so I'm not surprised that he came up with such a deep question. And, you know, it's a great one, Peter, I'll let you start. I have my own thoughts on this. I mean, the thought of hard work or the boring stuff. I mean, that's what we're all about here. So, you know, and dealing

with it, really. Right. Because it's, it's what we do here at Open Studio, but it's also, I think, if you want to be a better musician, it's a question that can be addressed very directly to what you're working on. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that we, you know, maybe even unconsciously a little bit, and then later on a little bit consciously, we patterned sort of the creation of Open Studio on, you know, things that we had experienced, you and I, Adam, and others on the team in general, in the journey of learning to become a musician, learning to get better, learning. Like, you know, it's like you start out doing something thinking, oh, I'm going to, I want to, I want to, I want to be that.

I want to be Herbie Hancock. I want to be McCourt because you like it or whatever your perception of it is, you know, you think you want to be there. I want to be, you know, this incredible hockey play, whatever it is. But then as if you're serious about it, like most people get stumbled, like most people don't even get past the I want to do it. It's sort of like, oh, because the world will like stamp that out. Yeah.

Even like you're, are you sure you want to do that? There's no money in that until you're, yeah. I'm talking about all this stuff. All this stuff. You live in Turkey. Yeah, you can't do that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Are you sure you really want to do that? And then your own, not even talking about your own self-doubt. Totally. So there's way more reasons not to do it. So if you make it past that and then you actually start doing it, then there's the reality of like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do that this month. It's like, oh, I'm not even going to be able to necessarily get there this year. Like, it becomes a long-term thing.

And so I think at a certain point, if you make it that far, you realize that not only is it not an overnight thing, but it's going to be a lot of hard work. Yes. It's going to be a lot of, like, minutia, a lot of, non-glamorous things, non-sexy things are going to be going on. Yep. And so I kind of think that it's impossible. That's a strong word impossible.

Highly unlikely in terms of what I've seen of really good musicians. And I'm not just talking about, you know, the Ron Carter's and the Nicholas Payton's and, you know, like the masters, like the top level. But even just really good functioning musicians, I don't think it's possible to get there without a certain embrace of the mundane, of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the kind of just grinding it out because that's part of the thing. Now, we have a lot of techniques on how you can find joy in grinding it out. Well, yeah.

It doesn't, like grinding it out to me is not like, oh, God, this is so, that to me, it's like, yeah,

you know, it's like I lean into that because I love stuff that is hard, or not even necessarily hard, because nothing is actually hard. It might take longer. Yeah. And look, some things have taken me three times as long as others.

That's fine. But I'm talking about like, like, Like you got to get uncomfortable And you have to like Change your mindset over time As quickly as you can But certainly over time

Into embracing discomfort And so that's another thing That the world and your friends quote unquote And your loved ones And definitely television and media And YouTube and everything Is gonna kind of subtly

Or overtly Preach against It's like get comfortable You know Have this food that's really good Sit back and relax You deserve this You know blah blah blah

retire, do this. Everything is about comfort, comfort. And so to me, it's like we look at becoming a, you know, a successful musician where you can play with others and have fun and maybe even get paid for it. But like play in front of people where they smile and clap and are like, wow, you're bringing joy into the world. Like that's a comfortable place. Yeah. That's fine to go for that.

But in order to get to that point, you've got to be willing to be in a lot of different uncomfortable situations. So I think I tried to take that. And then as we sort of at first very haphazardly, but then tried to get a more organized, build up open studio and stuff, it became about what is the end result? Well, we want to have this community of musicians

and aspiring musicians and just really people that love this music and are trying to get better and help each other and help folks that want to learn that don't have access to this information. So like that's the end result. Well, how do we get there? There are a lot of just hard, uncomfortable things and just like, let's, how do we figure out

how to set up the mics and all this different kind of things? But that stuff has to get done. So until you can get somebody else to do it, they can do it better or hire, you know, you got to do it. But it's a small price to pay, I think, for where we want to get. Absolutely. No, I'm so glad you brought up, you know, making the hard things part of your joyful process. That's my, that's what I'm all about, man. And I know you have read up on a lot of stoic principles to a lot of classical stoic principles.

And those help me to guide me through the idea. There's a psychologist Paul Bloom talks about suffering and how. A good dose. Now, not, there are people who are genuinely suffering in the world, for sure. Like, you know, and we're knock on wood and sanely lucky not to be suffering on a catastrophic level. Right. Where we are. But a little bit of suffering every day is actually good for humans.

Yes. And our psychology. Right. We're used to it, actually. And so, like, for me, I know I was just talking with a friend about this. I will sometimes have had a very busy week here at Open Studio doing a lot of teaching and maybe have some gigs during the week and rehearsals and It's been, it's been hectic. Sometimes I'll schedule a Saturday where I'd have nothing to do.

I inevitably get so frustrated that day. I'm just sitting there like, I'll just watch football or just listen to music or whatever and not do anything. I'm just going to lay on my couch. I can't do it. Right. I can't do it. I have to schedule in a little bit of hard stuff. Yeah.

Once you get into this mind frame of like, I'm embracing a little hard stuff every day. Every day I'm going to do a little bit of. something that is I can't yet do comfortably. And that's going to be exciting. I'm going to enjoy that. And then it's, again, it's really about a balance between that and downtime. So like, I don't know about you, Peter, but I am not clocking in to anything I do and saying, you must do this for 10 hours. There are going to be some days where I'm going to do it for 10 or 12 hours, whatever I'm doing because I'm so obsessed with it or I'm so into it. But then there are going to be some days. We're going to put in a solid two or three hours of really intense work and get a lot done. Right. And then I'm

going to zone out. I'm going to go for a walk. Did I mention that we are switching over to being paid by the hour at Open Studio here next year? Damn it. No, but I feel like I'm pretty productive with that schedule. Like, I don't feel like no one's ever like, oh, that Adam is such a slacker, you know, even though.

You know what it is? It's a creator, it's a constructive kind of creator type of mentality as opposed to like a box checking thing. Totally. It's like, and I think this is so important for us to all think about as we're practicing. as we're building a business, as we're building a family, as we're creating something. Because people think of like creatives as like you have to be Van Gogh or Miles Davis or whatever. That's just one part of it.

They just make stuff. They're good at making things. And that means the practicality of making things. And sometimes you can't make things 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And so there's a good balance here. Now that said, like I said, I don't have a days that are all just downtime. I usually have something that's pretty intense and pretty hard. And I realize before I go into it, this is going to be hard.

this this whatever it is this practice session on the piano is going to be hard yeah and it's going to be great and I'm going to get done with it and I'm going to treat myself to a nice lunch you know or something yeah yeah it's like it's addictive after a while like having those uncomfortable challenges I would say celebrate your your victories too that's right give yourself a little reward go for a walk go for a drink with friends like go hang out and celebrate doing hard stuff do a little bit of hard stuff every day do a little bit of downtime every day celebrate your victories like embrace the fact that Time's, come on. Come on, Ege.

No. But I think all of this stuff, man, at least for me, is like, I've tried doing nothing. That was my 20s. And I've tried just working until I think my dad would be proud of me or whatever. You know, someone who worked in a warehouse. Yeah, exactly. No, but like those don't work out for me as well. And it just don't make enough.

I don't make as much as I do. When I take time to do some intensity, to do. do some some difficult things really, really well, get caught up in the details, be really obsessed with quality of what I'm doing, not how much I'm doing, really like, how good can I do this little task? That's a great point because, I mean, what have we learned in so many different situations, but this thing of like to do something really well, to do something great, like to do something good can be kind of hard, depending on what you're trying to, like to kind of get to like a solid

be on something, and especially depending on one skill set or whatever. Like, that can be a real accomplishment. But to get into that A category, and I know this is a little controversial because with art and music, we don't want to make it like a great. You are 97 as a jazz pants, but you are 94.

No, but we know, like, you can get something to a point where it's like, wow, that's really good. But, like, to get to that next part, like, that last 10% is hard a.F. You can get to that B on gumption, on talent or whatever it is, on attitude, essentially. You're right, to get to that,

this is great. It takes a lot of attention on little details. And that is our things that can be really fun to be obsessed with. Don't let yourself on the hook, but not in a way where you're beating yourself up, just in a way that you really care about what you're doing. And so I find that when I really care about what I'm doing, it's not boring.

I'm super caught up into the details. Like when I do the DGPSs for you, EGA and for that group over there, like I get really into how clear can I make this concept? except, like, what will delight them? What will set off light bulbs when they're learning this stuff? And I nerd out about how can I do this the best I possibly can. And sometimes this is little shit about, like, voicings or whatever, about how to put them on the page or play them for you that make me really into that.

Right. And it's the same thing with practice. Like, really getting into the details. And, like, having the confidence to know that you're cool either way. Like, whatever happens in this session, you're going to be back here tomorrow. Yeah. And you get a break. Right? It's not like you're just going to bang your head against the wall until you die.

Yeah. Right. You get these little breaks. But that work is part of life, man. And that living is part of it too. Yep. And I would just add one thing that's been really helpful that I really just discovered within these last couple of years. I'm still discovering it.

But it's become more important to me is like something that, you know, to balance the uncomfortable situations, the really hard work and stuff, getting rest. Totally. Like, I never understood. I wish I'd understood this in my 20s or my 30s or my 40s. I kind of started to my 40s. But like, you know, life has a way and biology has a way of kind of forcing on that, that onto you anyway. But I used to always be like very motivated to get things accomplished and wanting, like,

being willing to do things that were hard. But I didn't realize like how I still looked at like rest as just sort of like a necessary evil. I didn't realize how intrinsically linked up it was with being productive. at doing great things. Well, we're so culturally conditioned to think that taking a break or resting is laziness or not part of being productive. But I totally agree, man. For me, the older I get, the more I realize, like, I can actually be better and do higher quality work on more rest.

Yeah. And it can become like, you can actually become really good at getting rest. Like, that can become its own sort of challenge. And it can be hard sometimes, you know, because it's same kind of thing. culture and everything is going to tell you it's like oh it's not possible to sleep unless you have these drugs to do this whatever but you can start to be up for the challenge and be like okay how do i get into the right flow and mindset before i go to sleep to you know like maybe i don't use my phone maybe i don't you know there's all this information you just have to kind of pick the right path for

you but i look at that more like i i used to look at rest and recreation as kind of like oh this is my reward not even reward it was like this is downtime between hustling right and now i look at it really as part of the hustle, because I don't think you can still be well-rested and hustle. But once you start to link them up and realize that that's like the ups and downs and that's the ebb and flow, it's like you can start to get, be productive from your rest and look at like, wow, like the recharging of the battery. If I do this in a really efficient way, I'm going to want to sleep more. Like I'm sleeping more than I did a couple of years ago. Yeah.

But I'm getting more done. And to your point about like it really is not about the quantity. It's about the quality of like setting yourself up. But that also comes with, I think, a heightened sense of, you know, not self-worth, but self, you know, one's own ability to produce at a specific time, like confidence, right? Right. So it's like if you're willing to be like, okay, I still need to get this, say, X amount of things written for like a commission or whatever. I suppose to be like, well, I'm just going to get up early, even though it's really late and I've been trying this all night because I know it's going to take me 10 hours tomorrow to come up with. a great idea.

Whereas the more kind of advanced mindset that I've done, hopefully I feel like I'm moving into it. It's like, you know what? I've been kind of banging my head against the wall on this. I'm going to go to sleep, but really like take my time, get a full rest, get up, not jump right at the piano, get some really good food, spend some time with loved ones, make some jokes. And then you know what?

I'm just going to leave myself like two to three hours, what maybe used to take me 10 hours. So then when you get to that, because I don't panic anymore when I get there. And you know, and this is not because I'm like, oh, I'm so great. I know I'm going to nail it. I may not. You know, but I'm also like, well, there's failure too. We can learn from that.

But try to get that sweet spot where when you get into that space, you know you can really nail it. Then you just have to do it. That's right. Then it's just up for you to do it. But I love that kind of challenge. And then that kind of uncomfortable kind of becomes a possibility for victory then. That's great, man.

You know, minor victory. Then you move on to the next challenge. I'm going to add one more thing to this that I love these kind of discussions too because I feel like a lot of us have these. Is it something that would interest you talking about? mindset in general. Would that be something that might be interested in?

No, it's because it's, I think it's something that all of us think about in our minds and plan, but probably rarely talk about like after the gig or whatever, because why would you want to do that after the gig? To yourself, but man, for me too, like, if you can think

about this, like this took a while to learn, but like, you might also try if you want to get, if you want to be productive, quote, and hardworking and do all the little details that are difficult. Like you might also try designing your life so that you're not getting better.

You're spending your time working on your process, not working on your results. And it's really hard, right? Because of course, we want the glory and we want to be able to measure our process with results, right? Of like, I've got to get better. I've got to be able to do this. And I want gigs with this. And I want to tour here. And I want to go to New York and play that.

And those are all great. You will never get there. if that's all you're thinking about. And then you're measuring your day-to-day activities versus those kind of, you know, success finish lines or whatever. And this is not going to be 100% for every human. You might just consider like, well, maybe I just take 80% of this towards instead of my pie in the sky goal. I just put that energy towards what did my day-to-day look like that is super interesting for me? very fulfilling and I'm able to be with music and the piano in a way that makes me incredibly

content and not with what do I got to do to get to the next level right like think about like how can you design your life to have a have a peaceful journey with music along this way those are those kind of like times for me where I reorganize myself around the process and not around the results have always been fruitful ironically for the results weirdly the results actually kind of flow. They just take care of themselves because I'm always kind of playing and working on things that are

important to me and therefore I keep making better and better music at least I think I do because I'm always working on it in a way that I love to do it and it's not like I'm just like okay now I got to get there and then what usually happens is you burn out a certain point or you just leave it behind because it's not very fun. Right, right. You know it's not very

fun to just like and you can even have a letdown even if you do get to that corner of a gig or whatever. I mean then you're like oh this is that's it. Yeah. It's only going to be 90 minutes long or whatever. I mean, I know you run. It's not like you do a race. I know you did a race recently, a half marathon.

It's like, you do that race, and you're like, okay, running's done. I'm done to the mountain top. Now I got to go down. No, no, no. It's about your daily experience with running and being outside and being with your body. And that's the same thing with piano. It's about your daily experience at the instrument. It's your daily experience learning more and more about music, being with the masters that you love,

their records, man, that's what it's all about. I think it gives you, I love that. And I think that it gives you some build. if you go with that kind of mindset what you're talking about, loving the process, you know, looking as the process as the 99% of what it is, you know,

the practicing, the day by, because that truly is in terms of the time you're spending with the instrument. If you do that, it gives you a certain equanimity once you get on the gig. Totally. Or if you get to that mountain top type of gig in that, you know,

first of all, it's probably going to go great because you're prepared, you're humble, but you're there to serve. You know yourself. You know the music. Yeah.

But you're not going to hit like this high, high, high, high, because you're always kind of at this good level, you know, but you will get get a bump up and it'll be fun, but then you'll be, it'll be like the race. It'll be kind of like, well, this is great. What's the next challenge? You know, what am I doing tomorrow? Yeah. And so, but it'll also help protect you and shield you that equanimity from, like, if the gig doesn't go well or if like you get thrown some curveballs, which often happens, to be ready to accept that, but to move on and not let that be a debilitating part of your process because it really isn't part of the process.

That's just like, and it's weird to say this to say like a big gig is like a speed bump potentially. It's a good one or a bad one, whatever, but that's not like that's just the contents of what you're doing. Yeah. Set up your life, not for the big gig that's coming up.

Yeah, I mean, if you're like religious or like you're going to church every Sunday or going to mosque every Saturday or whatever it is the day, it's like you're being this Catholic or a Jew or whatever. I'm trying to be fair to everything. 25 minutes into the podcast here. You're supposed to be doing that, what I hear, like all the time.

That's not just about like Sunday for an hour and a half or Friday night. Totally. You know, and if that's the only time you find joy in that connection, it's going to be kind of like. You're not a Sunday only Catholic. You're not on the mat Buddhist. Yeah, yeah, totally. Calling out all the Sunday Catholic. Is that a thing?

I don't even know. I think it is. Yeah, but that's. But you're not going to find joy. I'm not talking about you're going to be go to hell. I don't know about that. That's above my pay grade. You heard it here first, folks.

Peter's dipping. in this toe into the, we should probably let this one go at this point. We should have about 45 seconds ago, actually. Can we edit this now? No, that's good stuff, man. That's a great point. It is just a daily thing. Like, that's what you want, you know, if your life is designed to have fun and joy in those details, then it's all good, man. Then you're not just slogging through to get through some pie in the sky gold. That's why folks need to get on that OS Pro. I'm sorry. I'm trying to give a plug. Because that does, like, like, what we're saying is still like, you got to have like time and strength and like a certain amount of stability. to do all this on your own. The opposite to your pro gives you a little bit of handholding.

Well, it also gives you a community, which makes it even more joyous, more social, more fun. It's like if you're the person they can go, like to build the gym and like you're going to get up every morning and do the workout that a professional gives you or that you learned online or that you read a book. Some people can do that, but that's very rare.

And we never want to be like, yeah, just do it. Love the process. Sometimes you need that accountability partner. Totally. Sometimes you need those other ideas. And what I do. We're designed for that. We're designed for the social aspect of the,

Just a introvert ever still needs human. No, there's a reason why they don't send most kids home with just the book and say, okay, go learn this science. Like you do it as a group, you do it together, you do it with a leader. Thank you, Ege. Just so awesome to hear from you here and great success in the future with all your scholastic musical endeavors. Thanks, ma'am. Thank you, Peter.

This was a fun one, man. We got a special guest coming up this week, so stay tuned for that, folks. But we'll see you Wednesday, and until then. You'll hear it.