You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Instrument Spotlight: The Drums - #56

Episode Date: March 27, 2018

Today we discuss the instrument that makes it swing - the drums. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Menace and I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Today we're going to continue our Instrument Spotlight series with the instrument that can really make or break any band, and that's the drums. That's right. The drums can truly make or break. Well, the drummer can make or break any band. Your life, usually.

Your life, you know. No, I mean, the drums, I mean, of course we think everything's important, but I mean, the drums truly are crucial. I mean, you could actually, you know, a bad, As much as we think pianists are important, I mean, we can just lay out if we're not feeling it. It's true. It's a bad pianist.

But, I mean, the drums, they got to play, and they can screw the whole thing up. A bad drummer can ruin your whole night. Right. It's so true. But a good drummer can make your day. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to focus on the positive here.

And, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, drummers, I think, you know, for us, speaking for both of us, Adam, that piano, drum relationship and jazz is such a fun conversation. It's probably the closest, conversation that regularly occurs. I mean, the bass is, of course, there, but it's so foundational for everyone.

It's almost just like they're laying it down. Have you ever noticed that, like, some of your closest friends, usually your closest friends in music are the drummers? I actually have no friends that are drummers. I love playing with them, but I can't stand them. No, of course. No, it is.

It's always like my tightest relationships are with the drummers in the band. Yeah, and I mean, drummers are often, you know, actually good drummers are usually really good friends, too, because they've got, again, like we, talking about bass players having that foundational personality. Drummers, you know, usually have a really strong friends. They're really good at conversing.

They're funny. They're funny. They know how to listen. They know how to dialogue. All the things that make a great drummer, ha, it turns out in real life. IRL, it works too. Drummers are also definitely the band member that you want to go out with after the gig, usually. Of course.

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But let's talk about the role in jazz specifically. I mean, we did a course with Ulysses-Owens a few months. months ago and he kind of like did this amazing thing where he laid out the history of the ride symbol pattern in jazz but it turns into this whole like kind of the history of the instrument starting back with baby Dodds and how you know Kenny Clark developed baby Dodds

patterns onto the ride symbol and then how that evolved it was an amazing thing to watch Ulysses who's a modern master no doubt about it like describe this and you know for me in my own jazz playing in my own groups, the most important thing for a drummer is how do they feel and how sensitive are they dynamically? I think it says a lot about them as a musician if they can play with that same great groove and great feel, but at a level where, as selfishly as a pianist, I have a broader dynamic range. Yeah, I think that that's super important. I mean, the drums are, I mean, it's potentially the most, well, no, it is the most dynamic instrument, you know, normally within a sort of normal jazz set up, even a big band or something. In an acoustic range, yeah. Yeah,

and so they can exert the most control over the rest of the band just dynamically. I mean, you know, the piano, we have a lot of power. It's a very big dynamic range, and it certainly can do things that drums can't, but it's just in terms of pure dynamics and, I mean, and then driving the band, it's the drums. So they can exert that control. At those crucial times, I would say like the piano and really probably even the bass is the most consistent sort of subtle, underlying control and foundation of the band. But at those crucial moments, I mean,

think about the great big bands. You cannot have a great big band without a great drummer. You can have a great big band without a great pianist. Yeah. You can have a great big man without a pianist, period. That's right. You can even have one, I mean, you know, lead trumpet you probably need,

but they don't have to be great. If the drummer isn't great, it's just you never talk about great, big bands without a great drummer. Do you know what to me what creates I think some of the greatest drummers is how they how they enhance what's going on by by putting like punctuation to things with whatever's happening musically? It kind of goes back. Have you ever looked at like the auxiliary percussion in a in a Beethoven score like a classical score? Right. Like they you know these classical especially in the classical era literally the classical era right composers use the percussion as

literally to enhance you know a chord. or a note. It would almost never be on its own. Right. It would be there to punctuate. It would be there to punctuate to add color to something else. And I still think good drummers

kind of understand, they instinctually understand that concept that I can add something, I can punctuate, I can accent something that's happening in the music that nobody else in the band can. Right, right. Yeah, and it's the kind of thing. I mean, it's as much art as it is subtle,

just intuition, when to do it, how to do it, all that thing, and like, you look at the great drummers, and you can kind of isolate certain skills, like their time and their technique and stuff. And then all of a sudden they do that magical little setup and fill, and you're like, ah, and they make the music just feel so right. And that's what really separates, you know, the true masters from the,

wow, it's a little coffee you're pouring there. I'm pouring coffee here, guys. I wish I was a little bourbon you're pouring in celebration of great drummers. Yeah, we're on episode number 743. But, I mean, I think, you know, the drummers we're going to talk about today are really those kinds that have that that sort of you know that that that jeun-no-se-cois. I mean, it's almost when I leave a concert, especially like right afterwards when I haven't sort of digested it.

The first things that come to my mind are usually something that the drummer had done. Like I'll never ever forget seeing Wayne shorter with Brian Blade and some of the things that he did in that concert to punctuate Wayne. Yeah. Was some of the most brilliant artistry I think I've ever seen. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say Brian is like, you know, I love all these drummers.

I mean, Brian Blade, Greg Hutchinson, Ulysses. I mean, these are probably like the last few, you know, the last years, Hurling Riley. I've been very, like, these drummers I've worked with more than probably any other drummers. So actually, I should be way better than I am, considering the drummers I work with. I haven't really worked with very many scrubs, if any, you know. I don't be so hard of yourself. But, yeah, I would say Brian, like, one of the things that really epitomizes his drum mastery, is this ability to punctuate in a very sensitive way.

I mean, all the drummers punctuate. But, like, he does it in a super sensitive, musical way, and not in an obvious way. Like, that's not really his thing, like, to do the obvious ones. In fact, he'll do some subtle kind of anti-ones, and then he'll hit an obvious one. It's almost like sync up. He sets you up for it.

He's so patient. A lot of drama. And then, I mean, of course, he has, like, that very subtle, like, a lot of people wouldn't look at him and say, like, he's a killing groove drummer. but he's always got that groove there. It's just, it's its own stylistic. It's a very subtle way that he grooves.

Very strong, though, very strong groove. So who's on your Mount Rushmore for, let's say, 20th century? We'll say the old. Oh, 20th century. Well, so I mean, I think, you know, Max Roach, you mentioned Kenny Clark, you know, baby Dodds, who I hadn't heard a lot until we did that, you know, the court. I mean, I'd heard him, but I kind of went back to really hearing an understanding. I mean, you talk about coming out of the New Orleans things, baby Dodds.

but man 20th century that was a long time ago Tony Williams yeah Tony Williams although he extended beyond the 20th century I mean Tony Williams was such like he's I think he's probably influenced more of the drummers that I've played with you talk about like Greg Hutchinson Brian Blade Terry Lynn Carrington well he kind of changed the instrument a little bit

I mean he changed the way it felt yeah and it's funny because you can't necessarily say he's I mean you could certainly say he's the greatest jazz drummer ever and Noel would argue with you, but he probably wouldn't, I mean, he's one of the greatest. Right. But he's, he's kind of had an outsized influence on everyone. Like, whereas somebody like Elvin Jones, who again, you could say is the greatest jazz drummer, you know, like he's influenced, like I hear his influence in Brian Blades playing maybe a little bit more pronounced than some other drummers. But like Tony Williams, I hear him in every young

or middle-aged drummer, some part of it, you know, something, Jeff Watts. There's something, yeah. Yeah. Now, Jeff Watts is someone kind of from our generation that's probably influenced more of his peers than anybody. I was going to say, Jeff Watts has probably influenced as many young drummers as even Tony Williams. Yeah, yeah. So many. I mean, he's almost like, I always figure, I mean, I wasn't around during that time, really. But from what I've read and heard, like Bill Evans was somebody like that that really influenced his own generation a lot.

Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I think that Jeff Watts is just like, I mean, Carl Allen, who I just played with recent, I love his playing. Great player. And, like, he's kind of the A to Z. and you think of it's more of a traditional drummer, and he is, I mean, he's really can play the tradition, but then he's got some Jeff Watts stuff

that he'll throw at you, and it's like, wow. But it's that bridge, too, with Tony Williams, certainly big influence on Watts. I'm going to put a little bit of a hipster spin on my Mount Marshmore with, I'm going to, I like Max Roach, too. I think you can't have a list for drummers of the 20th century without him.

I'm going to put Vernel Fornier on there. Of course. New Orleans. Exclusively for his work with Imajumal for me is what I know in front. And that, as a young musician, informed my sense of how a trio could sound. Right.

Well, then that brings to mind Ed Thickpan with Oscar Peterson who are like, some people look at these drummers as limited because they were so associated with one trio. That's because the trio was so good.

They had a lot of gigs and they made a lot of money. They didn't have to go do other gigs, you know? Yeah, of course, Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe for all the great work. Man, I don't even know how I... I didn't forget them, but he just weren't top of mine.

And I mean, I heard Jimmy Cobb like two months ago here in St. Louis. I mean, it's an amazing thing because at his age, he is Jimmy Cobb. Like, he's not something else, but he's Jimmy Cobb. So it's like, in some ways, he sounds the same as he did in 1956, which is a great thing, you know?

Roy Haynes. Oh, Roy Haynes. I mean, that's another one that's still doing this thing. Man, drummers know how to stay youthful, too. I mean, they abuse their bodies and minds like, like no other instruments. That's the ones who went to the lot with after the kick. Yeah, yeah. But yet, they're the last men and women standing for sure.

I mean, Terry Lynn Carrington, now that. There's a drummer that I really respect had a lot of fun playing with over the years. And she's one of those super enterprising drummers that understands music in a way, you know, in terms of production and like songwriting and playing different styles. And she's played on TV shows and stuff. Kind of the new wave. I mean, a lot that came after her. She's influenced them.

And then certainly for female drummers, I mean, she's, you know, luckily we're at a time now where there's many more female drummers and they're encouraged coming up. But when she came up, that was a big thing, you know. So she's really paved the way. Yeah. Like Kim Thompson out of St. Louis, we're going to talk. Absolutely. Yeah, but I mean, it's like without a Terry Lynn, would that have been as easy?

I mean, not that it was easy, but would that, would she have been able to get to the point that she would have? I feel like drummers, that's probably has been, you know, traditionally the most stigmatized, you know, a sexist. Right. It's like, oh, you know, women couldn't do it or whatever. It's ridiculous, though. It's so good. Right. And then, I mean, talking about St. Louis, I mean, Montez Coleman, who's, you know, our good friend, and I just think is, you know, you know, you mentioned something about punctuation.

punctuating things and I saw your trio Montez plays in your trio I saw you guys last week and I realized like some of the things I was sitting with some other jazz aficionados and we were geeking out on some of the stuff that you played and we were like man I was killing what Adam just did did you hear what Montez

like we were talking about your solo but we were referencing Montes like he really has that ability to get inside of this the pianist especially like that discussion with him and he's always listening and like saying the right thing that's an addicting thing I think If you're a drummer listening to this right now and you want to work a lot, like to have that communication as a pianist or as any instrumentish I would imagine,

is, it's, like, I only want to play with Montez on that, with that group, right? Because, like, I want to have that vibe all the time. Yeah, yeah, and you've developed that rapport. It's not to say that any of these other drummers would be great, but there would be a development to get to that level of rapport. So just like Montez Coleman, you'll hear it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the You'll Hear It Podcast. You can go to you'll hearat.com to get more information, submit a question, or just say hello.

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