You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Is Arranging More Powerful Than Composing?

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

In this episode, Peter and Adam explore the differences between composition and arrangement. Join us as we dive into the art of crafting melodies and harmonies versus the skill of organizing and enhancing the musical elements of a pre-existing song. Is one technique better than the other? Let's find out.  Here's the link to our Spotify playlist featuring all of these tunes.As per PM's guidance - Join the waitlist for OSPRO!Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. Which of these do you prefer this one? Or this one? The first one. Oh, this guy's got no taste. Big thumbs up. I'm Adam Manus.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear podcast. Music advice coming at you. Coming at you today, sponsored by OpenStudio. Go to Open Studiojadjojad.com for all of your jazz lesson needs. Peter, what's going on over at Open Studio right now? Well, not just jazz lesson needs. Jazz community needs.

Oh, there's a bunch of community over there. And you might not have thought you needed it, but you needs it. That's why you're here, right? It's good. That's good wordplay, buddy. Yeah. Man, I'm still on kind of a high from our, what do you know about our mentor sessions? Well, I host the mentor sessions usually.

So I know quite a bit. And I know that the one that we had last. You're the matre d and the matre don't, the mentor sessions. And madams, welcome, sit down, please, and enjoy Aaron Parks mentoring you. Aaron Parks did an incredible live. We do these live because it's fun, right? The whole community, well, I mean, a lot of the community comes together on Fridays. And we have amazing people like Aaron Parks.

We've got Adam Larson. Adam Larson is coming up this Friday. Taylor, I'd see. But Fred Hirsch has done it. We've got just great folks. But Aaron Parks things was so cool. Now, he's been in the studio. We have a course coming out soon.

We've got a course coming up with Aaron. He's connected to some kind of universal musical light that just comes through him so easily and beautifully. And it's just people are loving it, including me. Yeah. No, I mean, we're all learning stuff from Aaron. It's good stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So we got that. And then Open Studio Pro, your baby, talk about Major D, you truly the Major D of the Open Studio Pro. I rock it to sleep every night. Man, this sucker is going to go crazy next year. It already is. We got so many good things happening over there and just want to encourage, it's closed right now, okay?

This is like the closed part of the restaurant when they're like, you can't sit there. But if you go to Open StudioJazz.com slash pro, you can sign up for the wait list. And we are going to open it. I don't know if you know this. We're committing to opening at least one time before the end of the year. year. We will have it open one time before

2024 and you might want to get in when it opens up. If you see an email saying that Open Studio Pro is open get in there because why, Peter? The price is about to go up. It's about to be double, actually. We've been underpricing this thing. But it's really an exciting if you go to OpenCadiojazz.com slash

pro, you can learn or follow the link in the description. You can learn all about it. Live classes every day. I think six days a week. Six days a week, at least two live classes. Yeah, sometimes up to four live classes every day. So much fun. So many, So it's such a great community there. Cool.

Well, man, I'm excited about today because you know what? You and I both have done our fair share of composition. We've both done our fair share of arranging. Yes. But we've done our fair share of deranging as well. We've arranged quite a few of our bandmates. But I feel like composition and arranging are underrepresented on the you'll hear a podcast somehow. We don't talk enough about it.

For me, I feel a little bit like an imposter. Like, I never took a composition class. Or is the French say imposterer, as they say in brusque sales. I've never taken a French class. I've never taken a composition class. I've never taken an arranging class. I've done it all from experience. I'm very fortunate that I get to arrange for some amazing ensembles,

including our very own St. Louis Symphony quite often. I'm just so stoked every time I get to do it. I saw an arrangement of yours with the St. Louis Symphony in front of about 20,000 people a few years ago, maybe four years ago at Forest Park, which was exhilarating. I'm sure for you to do it and to hear it. Well, it's nerve-wracking, it's very exciting. But like I said, we've kind of learned.

learned on the job composition and arranging. I know you have two of just the pianists. They always get thrown at like, hey, we gotta need a string arrangement, go rise some strings. Sue us, we know how to do everything. We know how to figure it out. But it's been an amazing part of these. Hey, Cunga player, go make an arrangement,

said nobody ever. It's been an amazing part of my musical journey, and I know yours too. I really love your arranging. Your arrangement of Infini's one of my favorite arrangements I've ever heard. And of any song. But I, you know, Peter, I'm working

on a new concert, November 18th here at the Shelvin Concert Hall. Yes. You're near St. Louis. Come see my new orchestra Pop, Pop, Pop, Pop. It's just that sound. We're going to be playing the music of Carol King, Stevie Nix, and Joni Mitchell.

And we're doing... Eminently arrangeable compositions. Oh, my gosh. There's such good songwriters, all three of them, and they're such good songs. They're easy to arrange, actually. But I was working on both sides now. Classic Joni Mitchell's song, which we'll get to here. and I was listening to Vince Mendoza's arrangent,

which we'll hear at the end of the show. So stick around to hear, I think, the most beautiful seven minutes of music that's ever been recorded. And I got to thinking... If you don't hear it at the end, that means we got copyright, got blocked, which is possible with Joni Mitchell

or Vince Mendoza. Especially Joni. Yeah, but we'll link to it in any case. But we will link to it. But, you know, got me thinking about how important arranging is. And I was like, man,

is arranging more powerful than composing? Like, could you take sort of a mid-song and with a great arranger make it great? Or could you even take a great song and make it iconic?

Like, I feel like both sides and now, Joni's song, she wrote when she was very young. And it's a good song, it's a great song. There's no doubt about it. It's an amazing song. But with Vince's arrangement

and Joni's performance when she's a little bit older and Wayne Shorter is on that, it's like, it's a whole other thing. Yeah. And it's actually better than the original version. And I have some examples

here of sort of original versions and different than the original. Some of the originals, I think, are better than the later arrangements. But I don't know, man, some of these. And then we just have some really beautiful arrangements that we can just talk about sort of the role of the arranger and how important it is. Yeah. Well, I'm just wondering and just thinking on my feet here, thinking out loud, just throwing stuff at the wall and see what sticks. I'm wondering if the arrangement sort of elevating the listeners' experience, the, you know, is more important when you don't have the lyrics. Because like you mentioned, both sides now, amazing song, but really linked with the lyric, right?

So if you're doing an instrumental version, I feel like a lot of times the arrangement becomes more important. If it's a song. Yes. Right? If you're going to leave out the lyrics, which we are apt to do as jazz musicians often, or it's like a solo piano thing, it's like the arrangement becomes super important. I mean, I've done like some arrangements of just like beautiful, I think beautiful standards, really just solo piano things like, you know, um, um, um, um, Embraceable You. You know, um, it's not that you want to like go crazy on everything, but without that lyric, even though I'm thinking about the beautiful lyrics. Yeah. So Embraceable You, if there's no lyric, you have a little bit more freedom. If there is a lyric, you should tell the story of the song. Yeah. I just have some really amazing, I think amazing, uh, arrangements pulled up. I'm going to start with, uh, Billy Eckstein's My Foolish Heart. Now, this is close to the original

of when this song was written. This is, in fact, one of the first hits of this song. So this is an arrangement. He was a hitmaker. But I want to listen to this, and then I want to listen to the Oscar Peterson, Nelson Riddlerberg. What a voice.

Beware My foolish heart So pretty straight down the middle Horn pads String pads How wide The ever constant moon Take care

My foolish heart Kind of a walking ballad To you There's a line Between love And fascination A pop arrangement A mid-century pop arrangement.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, just a few years. For they both give the very same sensation when you're lost in the magic of a kid. Okay. So just a few years later, let's listen to the version with Oscar Peterson and Nelson Middle.

This has become one of my favorite standard arrangements ever. Already the textures, the colors are a little bit more vibrant. It's more artful arrangement already. Still the same walking ballad feel. Orchestration change giving the soloist the melody here on the bridge. And Oscar's left hand arranges very much in tune with what happened before that, right? The arranging doesn't stop with the strings. Did you hear that even quoting sort of that intro?

Yeah. do bab-ba-ba-ba-b-b-bitts. His house. There's just so many textures and colors here. There's nothing wrong with the Billy Eckstein version. It's gorgeous. His performance, it's all about the singer. But that's, I think, what I think we could talk about. That's what I think we could talk about, Peter, is sort of what is the composition,

and what is the arrangement, and how the arranger can really turn a great song into an iconic song, or a good song into a great, or a mid-song into a good song. Right. There's a preview. aggressive feel to it and approach to the arrangement that you hear with those two different versions. As you said, nothing wrong with the Billy X-N-Rong. It's good. But this is great. Yeah, this is progress. You know, harmony, of course, but orchestration. Telling a story that's maybe beyond even just the song, right? That whole tone thing.

We'll let our solace go. So good. So... So I already know a recurring theme we're going to... I don't even know all the tracks that you're pulling. but for something I'm going to be listening for is how does the soloist or the vocalist, the pianist in this case, interact and complete and kind of dovetail with the arrangement because that's a huge part of it. That Billy Eckstein version is definitely a pop version, like that mid-century pop, it's meant to showcase the vocalist, and that arrangement does a great job at that. Billy's vocals are right up front, and everything sits the strings.

We're kind of floating above his range, you know, and everything else, was just kind of moving the tune along. But this Nelson Riddle arrangement with Oscar Peterson, you know, Oscar's the soloist, and yet he doesn't have the melody the whole time. You know what I mean? Like it's using the arrangement in a more artful way. And maybe this is a good time to talk, Peter,

about for those who might be new to this, like what's the difference between a composition and an arrangement? Yes. You know, so the composition itself. Potentially millions of dollars. Yeah. The composition itself is usually just the, melody and the lyrics. That is what you copyright as a composition. So you have your melody,

you have your lyrics. You can also include core changes, although those can't be copyrighted. So there's a reason why... But can't they be like in conjunction with the overall composition? It's just not on their own. It's just not on their own. This is not legal advice. No, what's my disclaimer I need to do? Now I need to do it. As Ed Shearren is finding out, it's very different with recorded technology. And yeah, Marvin Gay's estate is really letting and some people have it for ripping off the sound. But what is I said? Oh, full disclosure. I'm not an attorney. We are not attorney.

But imagine if George Gershwin's estate did that with rhythm changes. We wouldn't have had B-B-B-B-B-B. Well, that's an example of just the, you can't copyright, just the chord change. Just the core changes. You can steal them, though, apparently. Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't have as many blues tunes as we have. We wouldn't have as many rhythm changes. Blues-clues.

Or any contra-facts. So a contrafact is when you just take the chord changes. But the composition is, again, just the melody and the lyric. Those are what really make up the composition. It's the ranger's job to take everything that you have with that and put it into context and put color to it. And let's take another rudimentary example here, Peter. Yes.

Here's a tune. I hope I know the version, the progressive version you're going to choose. I already know it. So this is a star-spangled banner by Francis Scott Key. Is that who wrote the tune? Or did he just write the lyrics? I don't even know. That's a bad midi.

Is that called, is that the national anthem? I was confused. It's the national anthem of the United States. Yeah. There are, there are anthens for everything. There's a star spangled banner. There's the national anthem. There's the, I love that America that Ray Charles saying.

America is America Beautiful by Ray Charles. That's iconic. But that is not our national anthem. That is not. Could be. Could be. Maybe it should be. That is Panama's national anthem.

Fun fact. No, it is not. That's weird. So that's the USA's National Anthem, the Star Spangled banner. Here is, I think, and I, this is common, knowledge, but John Clayton's arrangement for Whitney Houston in the Super Bowl, I believe it was 91 or 92. Yeah.

Still a national anthem field. Got the snare drum, militaristic. But here's where it gets great. God bless America. Shout out to John Clayton. Shout out John Clayton. Shout out to America. Yes.

That is, yeah, John Clayton, who was just here last week. Yeah. I got to see him playing at the, you know, incredible jazz. amazing arranger, probably more people have heard this. I don't know, unfortunately, than hearing him play the bass. Yeah, yeah. But a great writer, great arrangement.

No, this is an iconic version. In fact, this is the version. Like, even my wife, Heather talks about, like, why would anybody see in the national anthem after this version has been done? You should just replay this one again and again. Yeah. So let's talk about a few things about the arrangement and about the performance. Because, like, we were talking about the vocalist in this case,

how does she first of all magnificent vocal performance I think it's commonly known that this was lip synced as are many of these big things not that Whitney Houston couldn't have come and killed it

but apparently she if I'm remembering this correctly she recorded it in advance in one take so it's basically like she did it it's like a live performance it's more controlled because of the things that can go wrong

and also just in terms of audio and things like that but I think the meticulous arrangement in terms of like the clarity of the different sections, but also Whitney Houston's ability to add to the arrangement to how she sings on top of it is just genius. Genius. It's very much connected. Like once he starts to loosen up the harmony and go into all those subs, like she starts

loosening up her melodic approach. And it's the genius of John Clayton to know that that is what's going to happen. Yeah. He sets the table out. Exactly. And then she takes, you know, she takes the cue. Another, I think great example of an arranger arranging for. for the player is if we took a look at this beautiful George Gershwin song, speaking of Gershwin.

Yes. Oh, this is OG right here. Summertime from Porgy and Bess. There's nothing wrong with this setting either, this orchestration. Yeah. Really, really, really solid. But wouldn't you rather? Who is that?

Gil Evans' arrangement for Miles Davis. Post voices? Brilliant voices. I mean, you want to get some emotions going. use some mid brass, use some French horns. That's all French horn, right? Yeah, use some trombones. And brought in the low brass.

Then single line, no harmony. And the balance with Miles with the... I mean, the sound, this is at the old church. So many, uh, calling me a church. Oh, all these little details, man. Again, Miles picking up on the arrangement. Is that saxon's or reeds or something with that same? Texture.

Not needed. Okay, so many brilliant things we can talk about. We're not got a time. But one thing I definitely want to mention. And then, yeah, I mean, if we get into this, this would be a, the university of Gil Evans and what he did and what Miles did. They worked really closely together. I know on this stuff. So, like, don't be afraid to repeat that something that's good.

It's just like with a soul. It's just like the way Miles is playing. Like, Gil Evans wrote the lines and then it diverges and then it comes back. And then he repeats some stuff exactly the same. You know, you can't always get away with that. That's the art of it. That's not the science. But you can't run away from that as arrangers.

I mean, I've often come back and taking things out. I was like, wait, why am I changing this? I like what I did. We can do that again. People are going to want to hear that again. And then also, I was just going to throw this up. Side note, arrangement. I love this album cover.

This provocative over there, Adam. Yeah, there you go. Oh, yeah. Kind of provocative for the day and the age, unfortunately. It shouldn't have been. But it's a beautiful, like the photography of it. like the colors on it, obviously, you know, the hand, the trumpet, the two hands, the leg, the shirt, no faces and stuff. I mean, one of the most iconic and brilliant album designs of all time,

beautiful photography. Well, let's check out what started this. Let's close the loop, Peter. All right. On the Joni Mitchell. You did throw that out there. So if you want to put my screen up, I've got... You see that whiffle ball up. There you go.

So this is the version of both sides now that she recorded when she was 26. Oh, gee. She was 26 years old in 1969. Might not have even on Canada yet. That's a great cover, too, but painted by herself. Open tuning.

That's part of the range of, right? Rose and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the air. Andions everywhere. I've looked at clouds that we but now they only block the sun. They rain and snow on

I would have danced caught in my... Gorgeous, a beautiful song, and then she goes through, you know, I really don't know, starts with I really don't know clouds at all, and then I really don't know love at all, and I really don't know life at all, and it's all good.

And she wrote that when, and she recorded that when she was 26, and she re-recorded it when she was 56 in the year 2000, maybe 57. And this is with Vince Mendoza, conducting I believe it's an orchestra in London I need to double check that fact check but it's Peter Iskin on drums Wayne shorter on the soprano saxophone and Vince Mendoza on the arrangement and the the conducting and this one to me is I just

think it's one of the most beautiful pieces of music that's ever been recorded Vince's arrangement here like listen if you listen to the strings at the start he makes the strings sound like clouds there's no real shape there's things that are moving and changing and happening in the string pad, but it's not a straight pad. There are lines within lines within lines and it's very much like looking at clouds rolling by. And then Wayne Shorter, just the whole thing is perfection and it really goes to show you, I mean that's a great song. It's a great song just her and a guitar. It's beautiful, it's iconic and it is even that more special with these great musicians.

Check out both sides now from 2000. There are things changing, moving, shimmering. on just one chord. Rows and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the end feather canyons everywhere that clouds that way

But now that is moving through the orchestra The strings They rain and they snow on everyone I would have done but clouds guard in my way I've looked at clouds both sides now from up and down and still somehow

it's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds in June and fairies wheel The dizzy dancing way that you feel As every fairy tale comes me I've looked at love that me The strings have never really stopped that movement But now it's just another show

And you leave them laughing when you go And if you can Don't let me know He's about to bring in Some more sections of the orchestra There's I've looked at love From both sides and now

From giving to take And still somehow It's love's illusions That I recall Really don't know love Big minor 11 chord there I really don't know love it all And feeling proud

To say I love you Dreams and skills And circus crowd I've looked at life that we But now Her vocal performance on this too This is someone with This is a genius with 30 more years

Of the jury Yes You know And they tell me that I've changed Well something's lost Wayne shorter here makes it. I mean, and life from both sides

and life's in, I recall I really don't know life at all I really don't know life. I mean, it's a great example. You want to know what an arranger can do? Boom. That's the difference that an arranger can have. And there's nothing wrong with the original version

of her and a guitar, and I'm sure there's plenty of people that prefer that. prefer that, but and they're both amazing, but there is just that like a great arranger can take something that's already great and elevate it to this place that's

just magical. I mean, that's magical. Throwing Wayne Shorter there too? It's beyond the icing on top. It's the cherry, the icing, and lift, we have lift off. So composition versus arrangement? Arrangement. Oh, yes. Both.

All right, till next time. You'll hear it. Thank you.