You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Is Bill Evans The Larry Bird Of Jazz?

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Ok we're asking the big questions here. Bill Evans. Is he the GOAT or is it all just hype? In this episode, Peter and Adam get into these questions and more. Is there room for these topics in the jazz climate today?Check out Ethan Iverson's articles on the topic:1. https://ethaniverson.com/interview-with-nicholas-payton/2. https://ethaniverson.com/2021/06/07/bill-evans-at-the-bohemia/Peep the episode on Brad Mehldau right HEREHave a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the you'll hear it podcast. Music advice and conversation. Coming out to you. And solid, two-handed passes, Peter, and boxing out hard as hell. Pulling the rug out from under some folks, maybe. Setting picks. Setting picks on Miles Davis.

We're doing all of it. I love the title of today's episode. Is Bill Evans. Are we committing to that? The Larry Bird of Jazz. Is Bill Evans? Okay, there it is. It's controversial.

It's fun. It's lighthearted. Listen, we love. And there's a little bit of truth in it, too, I think. A couple of things. Just to start. We love, obviously we love jazz. Obviously, we love Bill Evans.

Yep. Obviously, we kind of love Larry Bird in the NBA because we're including good old. Why does Larry Bird have to be kind of love? We love everything else? I don't really know a lot about, I'm going to be honest. That was a little before your time. I don't know a lot about Larry Bird. I don't know a lot about basketball other than...

Let me just give you a quick. I watch the playoffs every year. That's the kind of fan I am. Let me give you some, because I do remember seeing Larry Bird playing in the 80s on NBC. You know, Boston Celtics versus. versus the Lakers, Showtime Lakers. So I'll give you in some of our other younger audiences a little bit of a encapsulation

of who Larry Bird was and is. Please do. The Bill Evans of the NBA. That's what it does. That's all you need to know. That's very specific. So if you see Mr. Bird, you know, in Indiana or anywhere else, just let him know that.

So today's episode, I mean, we're having fun already, but it is, there's, you know, there's going to be talk about race and there's going to be talk about how it affects these two mediums, one of basketball and one of, jazz. Right. We're going to be talking about race in terms of a race to the bottom of the podcast list, if we don't pull this off right. This is an unusual episode, too, because I think this is the only

time we've had multiple takes stretched out over several weeks to make this episode. We're usually very good about our first or second take on these. Yeah. And never before have we started one, abandon it, come back to it, and then come back to it again. Yeah, it's just there's not a great hook here other than the great title that we came up with. And, You know what? So just trying to like, I feel like we're also trying to force some, some of these things into a boxes, like the comparisons between basketball and jazz are frankly overdone. Right. And.

But maybe people's perception of it, the fans and the general, you know, like how you look at an individual and where is their placement within the music or within the sport or within the team or within it. Like, what is the cultural phenomenon that surrounds it? You know, we're not going to be looking at how did Larry Bird play at 251 compared to Bill Evans, obviously. Yeah. this actually has nothing to do with the individuals and more about the sort of media and chatter around these two individuals. I think that's how I look at it. Because as far as the music or the basketball or whatever is concerned, stylistically,

we're not going to be making any connections. No, there's none to be made, really. But this is also spurred on, you know, we just did an episode where we watched Brad Meldow in the 90s. And Peter, none other than Brad Meldow commented on that video. I know. Are we sure it was the real Brad Meldow? We're not totally sure, but it's got to be.

We think so. It's got to be. It says Brad Meltout 4-4-36. Big shout out to Brad Meldow for not only commenting, but we'll have a link to this specifically. Link to the video. Because his comment is like a little mini essay that's kind of better than the video, actually. So you might want to go ahead and just read that. Of his album linerness.

He writes these beautiful essays. And he wrote us a beautiful essay in a YouTube comment. Didn't you want to be like, Brad, I don't know if you know how YouTube works. They're not usually this well-thought-out. and eloquently written. It's usually like a bunch of bullshit. But big shout out to Brad for pushing us to this episode, because I guess we mentioned it.

I didn't even remember that. We did mention that we just remember before we recorded that Brad Meldoe episode, we had tried to record this episode a couple times and sort of fell on our faces with it. But I put it out there as like throwing down the gauntlet. We are going to do the Larry Bird Bill Evans episode. And Brad even commented, maybe you'll address this on your Larry Bird Bill. Yeah, no, I think he was like, I'm looking forward to it.

So we're like, oh, shit, we got to do it. All right. We're doing it. back off. This is for all you guys and brat. So, okay, this is, I'm just going to kind of throw out my thesis on this. Okay. Is that cool? And then, you know, you can throw out yours. We can see if we're in alignment. This is, this is, we don't have an agenda here. Outside of it's, have some fun, but also maybe to, you know, you know, pull people together, hopefully. We, we're not here to divide or, or, or make any judge or anything. But Bill Evans,

incredible jazz pianist. I think that's kind of, you know, indisputable. Right. One of the Amongst pianist, right. Now, in terms of any musical artists, I would never say it's indisputable that they are the greatest or even great because some people might hear him and be like, oh, that's boring. That sounds like lounge music or I don't like that, which is a totally valid thing. Yes, but you can't, one thing you can't deny. With artists who are now passed away, Bill have been passed away for 40 years or more, but you can't deny his impact on the music historically and the influence that he has. So there's no denying that. Yeah, and I think that we're talking kind of from like, you know, how much of a pianist, pianist he is. Like all great jazz pianists. You know, just like I think that would be maybe a parallel with Larry Bird. There's not going to be any like fellow NBA players, great basketball players. They wouldn't admire his skill and his skill set.

Legacy championships. Right. So Bill Evans, fantastic pianist, big influence on me. And but I've always noticed that I'm thinking back to even when I first heard him on record, of course. And he was still alive at that time. Or it just passed away right around that time. I always noticed like a little bit of a, let's push him up even higher than maybe we even feel the love for him as pianist

or as the general sort of jazz audience because of his race possibly. Like a little bit of elevation beyond, a little bit of like extra mentioning of him, a little bit of like Bill Evans, the greatest trio of all time. sometimes just out of necessary space to the exclusion of some other wonderful jazz pianists as well. Now, when we talk about like Oscar Peterson or Herbie Hancock or like the, you know, Chick Korea, there's always like we hate, we would never get into like a ranking of them.

Well, we did a little bit. But it's a little bit tongue and cheek, you know. It is. It's all subjective. There's a group of like the masters. Yeah, of course. But there's a, there's definitely a group of like the most influential just like. blow your socks off that, you know, is a very small group.

And Bill Evans is probably not in that group for me, for me. But he's certainly right up there. And so if you look at like a Larry Bird in the NBA, one of the 50 grade players that's been documented, I think everybody pretty much agrees with that. But if you get into saying, oh, he's one of the three greatest NBA players of all time, and you're considering you're throwing into that because he's the best white player, like even if that's a subconscious thing. I'm not faulting anyone.

No, there's a little bit. That does happen. Of course. There's loads of subconscious, in-group, out-group things happening with any of this stuff, for sure, how you see yourself, how you perceive others to see you is all part of, I think, how people behave towards this stuff. I'm interested, too, in, like, in Brad Mel does comment on our recent video, which sounds freaking amazing to say out loud. You know, Brad had mentioned, like, there is this sort of thing of, like, I think people compare, like, people would always say, oh, you, to me, oh, you sound like, you sound like. like Bill Evans, you know what I mean? And I think it's because I'm a white. And you would say to them, racist. No, no, because I'm a white pianist and that's the only white pianist, they know, right? Like, that's, that's something. Or you sound like Dave Brubach. And I never really checked out a lot of Dave Brubach, aside from like the timeout album that my dad had. So I was, it was always puzzling. Like, why do you think I sound like Dave Brubach? Like, I don't even know much of his music. I like what I

hear, but it's not my guy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, why don't you think I sound like Whitney Kelly or or Bud Powell or the other piano or Hank Jones, all these other pianists that I listen to way? Right. Than Dave Rubeck or Bill Evans. You know, I listen to a ton of Bill Evans, too, by the way. So it's certainly in there. Like, I could see it. But it's funny. No one's ever like, oh, man, I hear that Hank Jones stuff in you, even though that's probably like the stuff at this point that's most, or the McCoy. That's, I hear all the McCoy Tyner stuff. I, you know, musicians will say that, but like sort of the general public. Yes. I think they see white pianists and they equate. And even actually, it's funny that Brad Melda

because I think a lot of pianists who were younger than Brad Melda were like, oh, it's like Brad Meldow, you know. Right. But he's probably got the brunt end of it from that end, you know, you know, from several, from two different generations now. And so full disclosure, and I just want to be honest and transparent and say that I definitely don't have the answers, but I think a healthy discussion of this is important. When I heard Bill Evans and it was the first time was with Miles Davis on a couple different records. I don't remember the exact sequence. They were all kind of around the same time, but for sure, kind of blue, of course. And then there's this great record. I think it's live at the plaza where he's, you know, great intro on love for sale.

Yeah, yeah. Or maybe it's a. Oh, yeah, good Dolph Street. Sorry, sorry, sorry. But like, I remember hearing that and like I was really attracted to his playing. And to be honest, it was also like, wow, there's one white guy in the, because it was like a picture on the back of the album. Right. You know, like, so I didn't gravitate to that because of that, but I was like, who's playing piano? Because I kind of knew about Wayne and Kelly and Red Garland. I'd been listening to some of those. And Herbie was really my first entry point with Miles Davis.

You know, partly because, like, my dad said, oh, I've got this, you know, there was, he, I had rocket that record that came. I kind of, as I was getting into jazz. That was on the radio. So I was like, I love Herbie Hancock. My dad's like, I think that guy played with Miles. Davis back in the 60s you know I was like what I was like you know what you're talking about this herbie Hank guy and then I went you know heard my funny Valentine and was like mind blown or

whatever so I started checking out different miles period so miles was my entry point for Bill Evans um and so it was there was definitely like in you know for a young white piano player there was a confidence boost by seeing that it was kind of like oh okay cool you know I can make it to the NBA exactly So this is the connect. No, but, but, but. Yeah, but I'm saying like if you're in a situation where there's predominantly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, the other side of this, which I think is very interesting. I mean, that's just sort of a side note that I think almost everybody goes through on some level if it's race or religion or gender or or identity or whatever. Gender is a heavy one for this too. Yeah. And I think it's, I think we should be honest and like, like talk about that.

But that, but there is another side to what I think with the fandom wanting to. to be like, oh, well, our tribe can, you know, the white players can do really good. Stan Kenton, Bill Evans, like, you hear certain names. And I remember even at the time, I was like, I felt weird because I was like, I don't like some of that stuff as much. Yeah. And then, like, once I heard this stuff with Bill Evans live at the plaza and I went down this thing.

And then I heard like live at the Village Vanguard, the trio because somebody was like, one of my mom's friends actually who knew a lot of, she actually knew Bill Evans when he came to St. Louis and played, I think it was like 82 at the, um, The Chaplet Wash You, the big, not Whitaker, Anyway, it was kind of a famous concert. The last time I used the same. The Bill played here? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh, I talked to someone. I talked to someone who drove him to that gig. Interesting. That'll be for another episode. Yeah. Graham Chapel, he played, I believe, 82 or 83 or something. But she told me, she was like, oh, you gotta listen to Live the Village Vanguard. And that was sort of, I mean, it still is,

known as kind of his, of that trio is one of the great, and it is one of the great trio records of all time. I remember when I heard that, I was like, that's not the Bill Evans I like. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like the style of it. Now, over time,

I came to appreciate that more, but that was never like a huge influence on me. But I'm really glad that I didn't get on a thing of like Bill Evans. Oh my God, he's so great. He's like the Larry Bird of Jazz. Let me like take a deep dive. I was still like in that a little bit innocent time of like just what stuff

did you on a visceral level react to when you heard because Miles was such a, I started to realize I was like, well, Miles, you know, as you go through the different recordings, had all the cats with him at different times. And then I noticed it was like, wait, McCoy Tyner, I'm hearing about this guy,

but I'm trying to find McCoy on a record with Miles Davis, and I couldn't find that. So I was like, oh, McCoy must not be very good. Oh. I mean, I'm just, you know, it's a stupid. Yeah, you're a kid. No, that's the thing. But then when I heard McCoy on a Wayne shorter record, I think it was speak no evil, not speak no evil.

It was something, maybe juju. Anyway, I can't remember when I first heard it. I was like, oh, and then that led me to John Coltrade. And now I'm like, McCoy off the charge, you know. It's funny, man. And this whole, the whole identity of this. And like, you know, so first of all, it's totally natural to when you see someone who looks like you to be like, oh, that could be me. I mean, this is why representation is so important.

And I think it's so funny that it's like a lot of people can't see that the jazz is a perfect example of where, at least in America, the sort of sense of representation matter and is totally flipped. Yes. Where like the people who are most prominent in the jazz field aren't white, right? And so, and then there are a lot of white people who get very like bruscled by that. Yeah. Like their feathers get bruscled. Bristled too. Bristled?

They get brussels. Ruffled. I mixed ruffled and bristled. They get rough bristled by that thing. And it's just like, bro, you're so close to see in the whole picture here of what, what is actually happening and why representation is important in all of these sort of, you know, other fields. Right. And, you know, for me, man, around this whole conversation, it's like, you get into this when you're a kid and I was dumb and don't know enough about any of these complicated, you know,

politics or race or anything like this or even the history of the music. I'm just going by literally what feels and sounds good to me. And then you fall in love with these certain sounds. Yeah. And then once you start digging deeper into the history of the more complicated, and we probably have people around the world who are like, what are you guys talking about? This whole conversation is. Maybe they're thinking of Bill Evans is the saxophone player. They might be. You idiot. He didn't play piano. this is like a very, you know, like complicated, ever-evolving topic that is sticky. It's sticky to talk about. And especially around this kind of stuff, especially for, you know,

a white jazz musician to talk about. But it is something that I think you just have to remain open, curious, you know, and like keep finding out as much as you can about, you know, even though it's like, it's like too late. Like, I'm already in and in love with it. There's nothing I can do to change my participation right in this whole sphere like it's in me it's it's it's part of me you know what i mean well i think and so like you have to then just like do your i think do your diligence and and see where how we got to where we are with this and then just be open to right how things evolve and then like just you know play from your heart as as it goes absolutely and i think that you know one thing that i i do has always made sense to me and i think you know you know

Nicholas Payton probably better than anybody certainly of our generation has Really spoken to this and explained it and lived it and and really philosophize you know Not even philosophize just described it in such an accurate way he's been the I think the leader of describing it in a way that actually has like put light bulbs in my brain about like oh this is what is happening Because it's the reality it is the reality so when you talk about black American music like that's what this is what this is this music is. It makes so much sense when you start, like, digging, just barely under the surface of all of it. It doesn't take much work. So that's the heritage. That's when we talk about the culture. That's what it is. And I think that Bill Evans, like, where some may go astray when they say,

well, no, it's not because look, Bill Evans was good. Ah, you're missing, you're missing the thing. Because like the music and the culture and the lineage of it, as long as it keeps existing and we don't screw it up. And look, you know, this podcast that we're talking about it, this is a perfect chance to screw it up. So I would just say that like my approach and my love for this music and hopefully, you know, this hasn't changed, you know, certainly gotten smarter and involved since I 15 years old. But the closer I can stay to that time when it's just like, man, I love this sound. This is what is the sound that has. And it was known as jazz then. But if I, if it had been known as bam, as black American music at that time, it wouldn't have made a difference to me. And it

would have better explained kind of what it is, you know? What the threat is. Yeah, but it's kind of like anything with marketing. Like naming is important, but it kind of does, it matters and it doesn't matter because at a certain point people will, like if you call a really cool new electric car that you want to make, that's $100,000, if you call it a banana and it's only yellow, people will be like, well, that's a stupid name, but it is yellow, whatever. At a certain point, they won't even make that connection.

There's a banana, banana, that just becomes what the name is. Now, it might not have been the best naming. And that's, I think, kind of what has happened with jazz. But when you talk about the music, the culture, the lineage of what it is, the sound. And, you know, we can debate endlessly like, well, what does that mean swing? Does that mean, funk or whatever? Like, if you know it, you know it. It's a feeling, yeah.

I mean, it's Bill Evans when he's playing, you know, on live at the, oh, the interplay. I'm always talking about that record. That's like some of my favorite. But it's also Bill Evans' trio playing at the vanguard. Absolutely. Well, maybe since we got the, and we haven't talked enough about Larry Byrd, the NBA. Not a lot. The way that a Luca Donchitz or something, you know, that's grown up in Slovenia.

The audacity of Luca. Not only is he a great athlete, although if you look at him and he's kind of on a shape, right now. I saw him in the game the other day. You know, he's not like. Luca, you can write to Peter Martin. He's a very gifted athlete, but he's not the most athletic player to ever come into the league.

But he's very skilled and he's very connected to the culture of America. American basketball, NBA, whatever the hell you want to call it. Yeah. Black American NBA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever it is. And so it's like it, you know, are people celebrating him too much? Probably so like they did Larry Bird or whatever.

But I think it is interesting to think about this. And, you know, to your point that people bring up, we don't talk about Bill Evans enough. I think we talk about an appropriate amount because because we love Bill Evans, but we love Hank Jones. We love, I mean, we don't talk about Cedar Walton nearly as much. That's true. He's a tie. I mean, he's so influential on us.

Brad was talking about hearing him that took me back to Sweet Basil. He was the trio in 1980s. Yeah, man. Yeah. And then again, you know, the further, it's kind of too, like the Loewe episode that we did. Remember Adam Neely talked about. Do we talk about Loevee too much? Well, we just learned about her.

We just learned about her. But, and I don't think that's how you pronounce her name. But Adam Neely had like, was talking about sort of like black American music and its connection to New Orleans. Right. Specifically New Orleans. And when you're down in New Orleans, you feel that. Right. You feel how the music feels.

And I think, again, going back to bring that back to Nicholas Payton, like that culture is still, I think, sort of like where we should look for leadership for the music, for the way it feels, for the history of it. It all started there and is still sort of like pulsating out of that place. Right. So there's a absolutely. There's a couple things that came to mind. And I sort of found them.

And we'll just sort of put these as reference points. Because I remember reading this. Ethan Iverson, shout out Ethan, who's a great writer and a prognosticator about the music as well, had a thing about Bill Evans at the Bohemia, which is like kind of a bootleg thing or whatever from 1958. But it was basically when Red Garland was still in the band, John Coltrane, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones. And that might have been the same band around the same time as live at the plaza that I was talking about. So Bill Evans definitely did some playing. I don't know if he was subbing.

I don't know what the whole story was. But I love the way Ethan Iverson says, my favorite Bill soul is where he is swinging, in quotes, I know, I know. Probably remained. But like Ethan kind of has a demarcation between like swing Bill Evans and other times. And gets into that and why it is. And so we'll link to that because that's some really like if you want to kind of go on a deeper dive stuff that I've never really thought about a lot. But it did get me thinking again about this period and how much I like Bill Evans.

And this is not to take away from everything. I mean, look, the duo record with Tony Bennett is amazing. I mean, that's a masterpiece. Undercurrent with Jim Hall is also a masterpiece. Absolutely. You know, interplay, I feel like isn't talked about. I wouldn't say it's talked about enough. He's just all, it's all good.

You know what I mean? He's one of the great compositions of the early 60s. Absolutely. One of the great jazz compositions, jazz standards, you know. And so, but I don't think there's anything wrong. I love this idea of like the swinging period of Bill Evans. But it also brings the question, and we'll link to two different Ethan Iroidson. This one's kind of short about the Bohemia, but also his interview with Nicholas Payton, which I highly recommend.

It's a long read. Yeah. But it's a good read. It's a great read. Now, I mentioned in there a few times, that's not why I'm saying to read this. I'm saying more about the Bill Evans stuff because Ethan and Nicholas kind of addresses that a little bit brings up an issue that Miles Davis said in his autobiography, or at least hinted at. And that was whether or not Bill Evans did enough to stay connected to the culture. Or like, did he go off and then, like, form a white trio and just do that forever?

And that's a controversial kind of thing. But I think it is something that we should, that folks that want to really explore this should think about. Because it would kind of be like, did Larry Bird, like, go and form his own league? You know what I mean? Analogy is too. It's hanging on by a thread. Okay, sorry. But I'm trying to pull it back.

We haven't in the title. We haven't talked enough about Larry. Do you know where Larry Bird is from? Indiana. What town? Come on. Come on. French lick. French lick. Did you just make that up? So European yet so nasty. Is that a, is that a gelato flavor? What is that? I don't know. It's, I don't know. It's a, it's a establishment in the Saint-Beree-Saint-Denny neighborhood of Paris that's open from 11 p.m. until 4 a.m., I think. Peter, do we finish this episode? Did we actually get through it? Caleb has, has not, like, you know, covered his face and run off in shame, so I think we did okay. No, I think these conversations, are always good to come back to you know it's it's a discussion worth having for sure absolutely till next time you'll hear it