You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Is it WRONG to Like Smooth Jazz? ⛔️🤔

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Tell it to us straight. Is it wrong to like Smooth Jazz? Adam and Peter dive in to find out on this episode. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey Peter Oh yeah It's about to pop off here It's not going to be rough It's not going to be difficult or hard Or jagged It's going to be pretty smooth today I only got one thing to say

If loving smooth jazz is wrong Then I don't want to be right I'm Adam Manus I'm Peter Martin You're listening to the You'll hear at podcast Music, smooth music coming at you Wait wait wait come back up You're killing my vibe, baby

I'm sorry He's in the vibe now What? It's a great record. Come on. I mean, what more do you want, man? It's 75 degrees outside right now.

It's smooth. We should be doing this podcast. We're sitting at the park. You got a little, a little rosé, maybe a little white Zinfandel in your hand. What's that? Nothing wrong with that. Can we do this podcast from a 1997 Chrysler Sebring?

That would be amazing. With the top down sitting outside. But with the ignition on. Ignition on. Air conditioning blowing. You ain't worried about the climate. Come on, man. We're eating food. We're throwing the trash out into the street. This is this for 20 minutes. G.B. The great George Benson is in the house today.

Underrated somehow. I mean, he's so famous. Is he underrated? Well, we don't talk about them a lot. We don't. We don't talk about them enough here. George Benson, a genius of the guitar. And I think a great entree. We kind of answered our own question. What do we call on this today? Have we come up with that? wrong to like smooth jazz. Obviously not. Can you tell where we stand, or at least I stand? But this will be fun, because I think we want to do a little bit of spleenan in terms of what is smooth jazz. And I mean, it's, look, it's not for us to say, but it's not for anyone to say.

You know how much I love labels, especially labeling music. No, there's really no such thing. I mean, obviously it's like, you know, when you hear it kind of thing. But it's such a wide tent, all of this music. And I think sometimes people, especially Joe Snog, I'm like, oh, Jazz police, jazz snobs, jazz elitist. Look down their nose. I'm not checking my phone, by the way. I know sometimes people... Oh, a video of mine.

Sorry. It sounds like you're watching your own videos on. No, I wanted to get to my list because my computer here, the power went out. So I'm going to come check over here. But yeah, no, jazz snobbery. I mean, it doesn't get any more snobbish than when we assault what is smooth jazz. In fact, it's such a third rail. It's not often even spoken about.

That's true. considered so beneath us. But this is the thing. I don't consider smooth jazz. I've actually participated. I'm going to tell you this. You know what? I'm 52 years old now. Go for it. Okay. So I can say what I want. Yeah. I can admit what I want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please don't strike me down. I have participated in a performance capacity in the smooth jazz cruise several times. And the smooth jazz cruise. Cruz. Is this with bode? I've cruised the, let's not let's not, let's not, let's not, I'm not prepared to admit that. No, I play with several artists.

Yeah. Great artists on the smooth jazz cruise. It's fun. So there's several jazz cruises and there's like the regular jazz cruise or the Blue Notes. I mean, I've done different ones over the years, but they're fun because people that are coming are passionate about the music and the artists that are going to be there. There's no like surprises in terms of you see what the line.

It's not going to a festival. It's just like a smooth jazz festival at sea. So there used to be more smooth jazz festivals. That format kind of fell apart a little bit in terms of how they promoted. It feels like it did since the early 2000s. There were a lot more. With CD 101 with that format and everything. But I think today would be fun like if we just kind of throw out there what our opinions, full

disclosure, this is not a scientifically studied thing. This is just our opinion. Well, yeah, I mean, we're just going to be playing our favorite smooth jazz songs, aren't we? Right. And you're going to have to do the plan because like I say, I don't have that capacity over here. But what I do have the capacity to is to talk about the origins of smooth jazz.

Well, what do you think considered to be the first smooth jazz album? Because I've just played mine, which is George Benner. Vincent's Breezen. Oh, you came strong. It's 1976. So it was a little late, I think. Because you brought up an interesting point when we were talking about this episode about what is smooth jazz.

Yeah. And you said, well, isn't really Basanova in the 60s? Yes. Has a very similar feel to smooth jazz might because it's got just a really steady beat. It's super easy to listen to very singable melodies. I mean, that's all good music. But there is something kind of smoother about it than maybe, you know, John Coltrane, quartet playing my favorite things

surely. Right, right. So it would be like, I hate to make it this unscientific and this arbitrary but it really is a little bit like could you see yourself in the summer outside enjoying this at the park with a little bit of white Zinfandel? You know it's not the... Why is it always, why is it always white? Because

white Zinfandel is like, this might be a little before your time. It's never Sauvignon Blanc. No, that's what I'm saying. It's like it might have its or like the grape might be Sauvignon Blanc, but it's a white, oh no, that would be a different grape actually. No, but it's like, it's a little bit cheap and cheesy, depending on how you look at it, but there's some, there's often cheese with it. There's often cheese, but when the weather's right, there's nothing better. There was a wine, there's this wine that I usually don't like a lot called

Vino Verde. Oh, I love a Vinovira. You love a Vino Verde, but, but I had it one, I never really liked it. It always tasted cheap and cheesy. You got it in Italy. I had it in Portugal, which is where it's from. That's what I meant. You have it in, where it's from in northern Spain. Like, by the, by the water. It's like in the right situation, it becomes great. And so I think that's what smooth jazz is. I mean, but something like Breeze it, you're kind of cheating a little bit because this is just a great record

with incredible playing, great arrangements, Benson just killing it. Let me ask you something. What? What do you know about Bob James? What do you know about touchdown? Oh, yeah. Come on.

So the intersection of jazz, smoothness, Fender Roads, and 70s dramas. Come on. Network dramas, man. Yeah, this is definitely smooth. Yeah, but I'm going to go one step before. Okay.

You asked the question, what did I consider the first? So, yeah, for sure, I would say some Boston Nova stuff. And certainly, like, Sergio Mendez and stuff going along. But I'm going to go back to a little record you probably haven't heard of. Put yourself in 1959. Oh, wow. A little record by a gentleman named Miles Davis called Kind of Blue. Oh, so interesting.

So you're going to consider this. I consider that the very first smooth jazz record. What? So you're thinking you got a, what would you say, Chardonnay? White Zinfandel. You're outside. Yeah. It's a beautiful spring day.

Yeah, I would enjoy this. There's salty sea air. There's sea air coming off of, you know, maybe we're in Long Beach, California. That's a big smooth jazz epicenter. Interesting. You know. Now, this is the precursor. It's interesting.

You play this little one-minute segment introduction to SOA is the least smooth jazz of this record. So I'm having a little truce. Now, here we are. Come on, man. We're sipping. We got plastic. We might even have a solo cup. That's okay.

The creer. Maybe even a little a little Wisconsin cheta. Oh, yeah. You know. No, but I think that this was the first record, possibly, that was just about a vibe and a groove.

And you might be like, well, there's no backbeat. To me, backbeat is not the only thing that makes something smooth jazz. You know what I mean? It's a vibe. It's more of like music for the people. It's less. inward looking, it's less like about the musicians and it's certainly about the artistry,

but on more of like a macro level. There seems to be more of a blurred line, not between straight ahead. I hear what you're saying with that, but there seems to be more of a bloodline between fusion or funk and smooth jazz, right? So like- But I don't think that all great funk records are smooth jazz. Like for instance, the meters. Yeah, meters are not smooth jazz.

That's like strong funk, new arms, but I don't think they did. Parliament is not smooth jazz. Yeah. Now there might have been a couple of tracks that the meters did that got into smooth jazz. jazz category, but that's not like your prototypical smooth jazz is more adult. It's more like grown-ups with jobs. Yeah, grown folks music.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But ones that don't necessarily want to be like so engaged with the artistry and lineage of the music in a way. It's a more casual kind of thing. I don't mean that in a backwards or derogatory way or anything. There is like, we talked about last episode, there's a balance to all this. And I'm not saying that kind of blue is

a smooth jazz record, but kind of blue is more of a smooth jazz record, closer to a smooth jazz record than the meters. Let's put it that way. or for instance, like, the John Coltrane quartet. You know, like we were talking about it. And it's not about great, bed, or whatever. It's just situational kind of music, right? So who else do you got, you know, as sort of your prototype?

Okay, so getting into like less controversial, but what I think is the sort of great and the pinnacle of smooth jazz that no one would argue, and I think is some of the greatest, along with like Breeze and George Benson would be Grover, Washington Jr., pretty much anything that he did. That, to me, also is... Mr. Magic is the most popular. I knew you were going to pull that up.

Also, if you want to play a smooth jazz gig, or a wedding from a certain era. And this is, I mean, they didn't, you know, Grover didn't invent this, but he codified it with this. You got the Crusaders, of course, Joe Sample, Benson, you know.

And this is getting into a, Okay, it's about the groove. It's instrumental pop music from that day, maybe, you know. But very interesting and beautiful and easy to hug harmonies. You know, these, there's a lot of harmonic movement, but it's easy to hug, you know. Altered sound, but it's not a harsh art altered. Voicing, but nothing too crazy. But Grover, you know, great sound, intonation, beautiful phrasing.

Tight, tight drums. Come on. What year is this? Mid-70s. Yeah, I'll guess they're 75. This seems to be when it really starts coming together, the 75-76. And so the thing with this track, and really just Grover in general, because he was so, yeah, I'm just thinking, okay, so he's so influential that is a little bit of a bad rap because I think you have a lot of later on saxophonists that came along that really smoothed it out. certainly you can hear the influences of Grover,

but it's a little cornyer. It's a little less interested. Like this, you know, stands up to the test of time, I would say. I love this just as much as, I remember when this,

I don't really remember when this record came out, but I remember hearing it, certainly in the late 70s. We know about this one. We've got keys players. What are you? Oh, is that gruesome? Oh, Sample?

Joe Sample, yeah, of course. Carmel. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that great? Joe Sample, I think, again so influential to some corny or smoother jazz stuff but his stuff stayed the most popular track here is greener grass from Voices in the Rain

1981 oh this is my jam bob james Joe sample Dave grueson a little bit later you mentioned Dave Gruson yeah he's another one and I mean I think for sample he was such an imaginative pianist keyboardist um yeah oh producer Caleb's calling for power wave

I'm gonna I'm gonna do I'm gonna give you another hot take in a second also shout out to GRP records remember GRP yeah bruson's record company Kenny Kirkland's only record

was on that you know that especially in this era mid 70s through probably mid 80s yeah they were just the smooth jazz

or the smoother jazz artists We're just crushing melodically here. Right. The melodies are so singable. Yeah. A little funky vibe. A little Dave Gruson. Yeah.

And I think this, like this kind of sound, not necessarily just Dave Brousson, but kind of what it's getting into the sound, I think did certainly influence and kind of lead to some other smooth jazz areas that really got into more with singers or without in kind of the 80s. You talk about like Anita Baker, sweet love, that little sound. I would call that. Chadee. Chade. That's really smooth jazz in a lot of ways.

You take away the vocals. It's definitely smooth jazz, you know. And really stuff that I like. Let's give a little St. Louis love here to our very own David Sanborn. David, okay. You've done some playing with Sanborn. Yeah. I mean, our own Bob Dubu is played with him last weekend.

Yeah. Maputo. Yeah, this is very. I mean, this is Bob James and David Sanborn. Right. And Marcus Miller, like, we can't leave him out because he's sort of behind the scenes and in front of the scenes. especially with Sam Moore. Marcus Miller's so influential during the time.

Yeah, of the sound, you know. And that bridge between, you know, Luther Vandross and all the stuff he did with his uncle Luther Vandross. Is that connects, I think, same thing with sweet. Marcus Miller's uncle's Luther Vantros? Yeah. Or, yeah, uncle, I think. Or cousin, maybe. I had no idea.

Yeah. I was like it was his first gig. Yeah, this is getting more smooth jazz involved. What's not to like, though? I know. You can share, what was that movie around this time? It might have been from this with Michelle Pfeiffer and like Ken Russell or Kurt Russell or whatever. Put yourself back to the 1980s.

But you got to, I mean, I think Sanborn's sound also insanely influential. Yeah, yeah. A lot of Sanborn clones. Absolutely. And so, yeah. And I think his clones, it's kind of been harder than, I don't know, something about Grover's. I mean, both of them had kind of been bastardized at different time. For sure.

But I would say like Sammore, because early on, like he had that sound over kind of stuff that I wouldn't necessarily say as smooth jazz like Tuesday Heartbreak with Stevie Wonder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sammore's tone and sound is exactly the same. Yeah. But that doesn't really, for some reason, Stevie, I don't know. Would you say that is smooth jazz? Well, let's listen to, well, I mean, that's the thing.

Funk fusion. Yeah, I guess there's a little bit of Steve. I think you can hear Stevie Wonder's influence on pretty much. Every genre passed. Oh, for sure. But I'm saying, are there any tracks of Stevie that would jump out to you as being smooth jazz? So is this Sanborn on Tuesday Heartbreak?

Tuesday Heartbreak, exactly. So this is from 1972's Talking Book. Yeah. In the greatest albums of all the time. Oh, he put the chorus effect on it, though, right? I don't think, well. Tuesday Hardway. Yeah, that is.

That is. That clab. This mix is incredible. Sandboard had to be. He was young. 28 or something. Yeah, probably. Tuesday break on.

Guess you just don't care because you're fine. Yeah, I mean, you can argue that Stevie Wonder's whole early collection is also hugely influential on smooth jazz. Yeah, but is it? No, it's not. Like, I almost feel like kind of blue.

This is a hot, this is a bad, this can be a controversial. Hot take. Hot take, folks. We have a hot take graphic. We got a TikTok pull out? What's going on? No, but I mean, like, to me, kind of blue

and Boston over is more smooth jazz than Stevie. I don't know why. Because Stevie's stuff, I mean, as much as like Grover or Samborn, I don't know, Stevie's thing is just so particular. What about something like My Sharia Moore or isn't she lovely? Yeah. It's too earthy. That's the thing. R&B.

Yeah. It doesn't matter. But I do think that in terms of- I'm saying labels are stupid. They are stupid. But the stuff that we can all agree is smooth jazz. And look, we're being positive here. You notice we haven't mentioned the smooth jazz we don't like.

Would you like to wait into those words? water, sir? Well, there's a ton. Well, yeah, we don't need to do that. But the stuff that everybody would agree, not talking about Kind of Blue and Stevie Wonder. There's a ton of every genre I don't like. Exactly. And that's what we're trying to shine a light on. Grover Washington Jr., George Benson's, the OGs, the undisputable OGs. Saying kind of blue, that might be controversial. Just as a, if you haven't spent a lot of time with George Benson's music, do yourself a favor.

Spend some quality hours. Yeah. And I mean, somebody, I'm glad you brought up Dave Gruson because I don't think about him enough. Such a great player. And And like that's the soundtrack to the movie called The Firm, the Tom Cruise. Yeah, yeah. He has a great soundtrack. That's kind of bluesy smooth jazz, I would call that. Bluesy smooth. Well, because he's joint.

Smoothies. It's kind of Memphis, but I wouldn't call that a blues record at all. The Firm's soundtrack. Yeah, yeah. That's got some great. And it's like a lot of overdubs he did on the disc clip. That sounds a little bit like Peter Martin. It is.

Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying. It's blues-adjacent. And this is layered several things. that he's doing. Smooth jazz solo piano? Wasn't this partly in New Orleans, wasn't it? Yeah.

Memphis. Memphis. Yeah. A lot of Joe Sample influence, for sure. I just watched this. I watched this movie a few months ago. It's really good. It's one of the best, like, I think it's only piano,

or mostly solo piano. But apparently the way he recorded this, like he, like, he did that, and then he added all the stuff on top. It's a good way. getting right well Peter smooth jazz lives super super fun well should we go out on some Kenny G you'll hear it