You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Is "Off The Wall" Michael's True Masterpiece?

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

When Epic Records told Michael Jackson “no” to Quincy Jones, he fought back and changed music forever. Join Adam Maness and Peter Martin as they dive into Jackson’s 1979 masterpiece Off The Wall – the album that planted MJ’s flag as a solo artist. We explore how a young Michael partnered with Quincy Jones, created magic with studio legends Louis Johnson and Greg Phillinganes, and transformed Rod Temperton’s “I Want to Eat You Up” into a radio-friendly “Rock With You.” Hear rare demos and interviews, isolated stems, and discover why this record still delivers HITS! decades later. Between Quincy’s touch, Michael’s heart-pouring intensity, and a whole lot of masterful musicians emerged something that united the world in a way few artists ever could.🟠 Open Studio Members - Check out the Nerd Nook for the episode in The Hang:https://www.openstudiojazz.com/community/c/as-seen-on/nerd-nook-off-the-wallABOUT OPEN STUDIO------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As the premier online jazz education platform, with an ever-expanding course library and 20,000+ members, Open Studio (OS) has everything you need to excel and thrive on your jazz journey.Featuring everything from beginner to advanced lessons, engaging courses from A-list instructors, step-by-step curriculum, real-time classes and a thriving and incredibly supportive community, OS is the perfect platform to level up your jazz playing, whether you’re a total beginner, or an advanced pro-level improvisor.Try OS Membership today! → https://osjazz.link/aboutAll about YHIhttps://lnk.to/youllhearitYB

So she's sitting there and like, you know, I don't like to make trouble with anybody. Like I'm not going to be the first person. Sometimes you do. Well, but only when I've been. Yeah. But I know what you're saying. You know what I'm saying? It's an ongoing issue, really.

With her specifically, and I don't know why, right? And I think I'd like to put. Totally. Sorry. Oh, my bad. I'm listening. Come on. Anyway, so then Ron walks in.

And Ron actually mentioned you specifically, which is. Classic Ron. Well, you know, you and him have had that, like, there's been a, Like a bit of a... A little disconnected. Well... Buddy. Oh, I'm sorry, man.

It's just hard. It's hard. Okay, go ahead. Anyway, so, like, Ron turns to her, and you're not going to believe what she does. Like, she looks down, then looks out the window, turns back to Ron,

and, like, get... Man, I'm trying to tell a story here. My bad. You're playing the whole... What's going on today, you know? I can't help it. Hey! Got me again.

I'm Peter, And you're listening to the You'll Hear at podcast. Music, Explored. Explored. Brought to today by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJazz.com for, oh, your jazz lesson needs. Wait, tell me that again. Open Studio Jazz.

Got it. That's a good. That's a happy place. By the way, you know, when Ron came in, he was like, that was fun, right? A little gossip corner. That was good. I like that.

That was fun. You sounded good, man. Oh, you too, man. Shout out also to Bob DeBoo and Caleb Kirby playing on our intro. They took off quickly, though. We do have a special outro today, a little two piano, Rhodes, piano, duet on the way out. Yep.

Peter. It's a big day. My man. I came prepared. I got a stack of goodies here. You got, you have a... Is that a limited dish? Don't say anything yet.

Okay. Today we're talking about one of my favorite, I think one of your favorite. Yeah. One of most people's favorite albums at all time. We're talking about... Millions. Oh, my gosh. Michael Jackson's...

off the wall, his 1979 masterpiece, an incredible work of art. And like, an incredible, like, Michael planting the flag. Like, I am here. I'm a grown-up now, kind of. He's still a teenager. Yeah. Well, no, I think he wasn't in 19-year-20, I think. Yeah.

But still, he's still relatively very young. But I mean, as... Kind of grew up in the public eye, what you said? He did. He started very young. But we'll get into that. We'll kind of get into the story of how this one came about. This wasn't his first solo album. He had some solo albums for Motown,

but this was his first solo album away from Motown. So we'll talk about that a little bit. And what I really want to talk about is, like, you know, Michael as a performer, he starts, of course, with the Jackson 5. They leave Motown, and they leave, they can't take the Jackson 5 name with them. So they move to Epic and they become the Jackson's. And this is when Michael... So the Jackson's different than the Jackson 5?

Well, it's... Legally it is. It's the same people. for the most part. I think Germaine stayed at Motown. Yeah. But they made a few records, and this is on one of those early Jackson's record. Michael is a teenager here. This is, Shake Your Body Down to

the Ground. A little foreshadowing of maybe what's to come in a couple of years. I think this was right before the record right before Off the Wall. Oh. Where my stakes. I mean, entering a new era of pop

music here with the Jackson's and the late 70s in general. Man, his attack, like, you know, his syncopation, it's, I mean, it was always there, even when he was a little kid. Yeah. But this, I remember this period, and I want to say, was that on Destiny? I don't even know here. It doesn't matter. I know this came out right before off the wall, because this is one of the first, like, kind of mature Michael's, like his voice and his vibe, his, like, with the rhythm and the feel and everything was in there.

I think, as we're going to discover as we get more into off the wall, and this is all still young Michael here. Pre-thriller, right? Pre-moon, but he is, even at the... point, even at the point with the Jackson's here, he is one of the great vocal performers of all the time. And he doesn't even have like this incredible, you know, instrument that a lot, like he's not Luther Vandross, right? He doesn't have this amazing. He's a great instrument, but it wasn't, I know, it was very unique and you know it's him as soon as he starts singing, unless it's one of his brothers saying, but his every single, like, vocal rhythmic thing

that he does, every single improvisation that he does, every run, every single, he, he, he, he, that he does is like super, it just rips your part out. He was an incredible musician. And I think because, you know, like Randy and Germain and Tito, like he had so many, they were playing the instruments, right? And he was not seen with an instrument. And I know he played some piano, I guess, in guitar. But like he wasn't, you know, his older brothers and like, like you saw them playing all the time. And he was like, obviously the singer, the entertainer could dance, had the charisma.

Well, they all did. But I mean, you know, let's not forget how you show off how a great musician you can be with your instrument of the voice. Yeah. He was there. You talk about your Sarvon, your Frank Sinai. Well, Quincy talked about this. Yeah. Like, he, that's very much the lens with which he saw.

Sorry, did I jump ahead? No, you're right on track here. So that takes us to where we are here. Right around the same time, the Jackson's are making their album. Michael is maturing as a performer. Yeah. He gets a gig with the film version of the musical The Wiz, starring Diana Ross and Michael Jackson. Exactly. Look at that.

That is a limited edition final copy of the... Yeah, and it's just, you know, it's got the poster. It's even got the... Let's get to listen to it. I'll show you some things in it. So here's Quincy talking about that. When Michael was 19, when we first worked together, he was co-starring in, and I was a musical director.

I was resisting it for the score of the movie version of The Wiz. We worked on The Wiz first. And he said, I'm going to go out be on Epic, and I'd like you to help me find a producer. I said, Michael, I don't want to talk about that. You don't even have a song in the picture yet. You got these on down the road with Dinah, but you don't have a solo song, you know. So I'm going to get you a song first, then we talk about the rest.

And we got, you can't win in there for the Scarecrow song. It was terrific. It's something I always wanted to do. And it was a lot of fun. Work with all the great Sidney Lumet, Quincy Jones. And then I started to watch him how intuitive he was. You know, everybody's dialogue. He did makeup for five hours and, you know, all of their songs and all of their dance steps.

Michael was one, very, very special talent. I mean, really special. In every way. Incredible. So that's Quincy Jones and a little bit of Michael Jackson talking about the experience of the WIS where they,

they didn't meet for the first time, but they worked together for the first time. Peter's holding up this incredible final album. Yeah. Of the recording, the original soundtrack of the WIS. But as you heard Quincy there, like Michael, and he famously did this throughout his career,

he knew everybody's part. He knew everybody's songs. He knew everybody's dance moves. Yeah. Just always the most talented person in whatever room, he's in. And so as Quincy alluded to, he didn't even have a song in the movie he had

ease on down the road, but they added this song, which is one of my favorite all-time MJ moments, you can't win. He's playing the scarecrow. He's doing this kind of thing. Like scooping his... Isn't that great? 19.

And of course, Quincy Jones is the musical director for The Wiz. amongst many, many other things. They strike out a conversation. Michael wants Quincy to produce his first soul album on Epic, and this is Quincy talking about that. Machine, all those great things they did, great producers.

I think I'd like to take a shot of producing a new record because I felt something else in him. We finished the movie. Michael came back all teary out one day and said, the people at Epic don't want to use you. They said, you're too jazzy. You know, Michael, we would be fine, just fine. And he thanked God, he went back,

And they fought and they said, he's doing it, you know. Everybody at epic, black and white, he said, no way it's not going to work. And I love that. Yes, I know you do. All you got to do is get me going is underestimate me. Quincy Jones, yeah. I started working with him, just father and everybody else says, you can't make him any bigger. So we'll see.

And one thing led to another. Quincy Jones, just the best. I love that he talks there about people underestimating him. Yeah. It's like the easiest way to get him going because I feel that, too. It's such a great motivator when people are like, you can't do something and, uh, man. And just he obviously could do anything.

He's Quincy Jones. And at this point, he was, you know, the Sinatra arranger and, and the Ella arranger and music director. And he's a jazz horn player, you know what I mean? But he had, Quincy had this in him. I love this relationship so much on off the wall and thriller specifically because I feel like those two together make magic happen as we're about to hear. There's something about their relationship.

it's, you know, they're different generations. Yeah. And Quincy's sensibility is not quite the same as Michael's, but they bring out something in each other that is so magical, so special. Yeah, there was, I mean, I think that that commonality between them of striving for perfection, you know, very competitive, as you mentioned, like with Quincy, with epic records and stuff, but Michael was very much that same way. The Jackson's, all of them were with this record and their record before, like with, you know,

the Bee Gees and Saturday Fever was the biggest record before. And they were like, you know, we're going to have a bigger record than that. It was, there was a lot of things. There was definitely a little bit of father figure, certainly working together and stuff with Michael and Quincy. It's a super interesting relationship. And, you know, plus Quincy was like, by this point, I mean, Quincy had done so much stuff. You know, he'd lived in Europe.

Yeah. And, you know, studied like, you know, orchestration, but he'd also done big band playing. He was fun, I think he was from Seattle. He traveled with, you know, a bunch of jazz musicians and bands, produced a lot of different kinds of things. Television, you know, he did, what was it, Palm Broker, he did a bunch of movies, soundtracks. A bunch of great film scores.

Yeah, yeah, and so he was no, but he wasn't Q like we know him yet, but it was this record that really made him that. So I understand how epic and stuff was kind of like, what, no, we're not getting him. So Michael Thought For him, Michael Thought For him got him, and off the wall was recorded between December 1978. Hey, shout out December 1978, by the way. Was that someone else?

That's when I came into the world. Nice. Okay. December 30th. We both have an interesting thing because I was eight years old when this record came out in 1979, I believe it was July or whatever that summer. This is the first pop record that I have memories. I mean, first pop record. Like I was listening to jazz records before.

This is the first record that came on the radio that I remember like where I was when the singles came up. And when I heard it like going to skate to this stuff at U City. Shout out U City skating rink and Saints and all of that. Remember when records were made for the skating rink? Yes. Yeah. I mean like this was a big record. I remember how it felt that.

summer. You know what I mean? So it was recorded between December, 1978, and June 1979. So ended recording in June was released in August. Yeah. Like, that's a really quick turnaround. And I think... What was the first track?

Don't stop until you get in... I think that was the first single. And I think that came out earlier in the summer, I believe. Could have. I love this quote here about the sessions. Quincy Jones famously implemented what he called Check Your Ego at the Door sessions, where everyone focused solely on making

the best possible record for some of Michael's vocal recordings, the engineer would dim the studio lights completely or turn them off to help Michael feel less self-conscious and more emotionally connected to the material, which we're about to hear. So, detail-oriented. This does lead us to the first track and the first single. This is, don't stop until you get enough from off the wall. You know, I was wondering, you know, that you could keep on it because the force has got a lot of power. They make me feel like that. Woo.

It makes me feel like it. No string. Horns, the dynamics. Oh, it. Guitar. But his layered vocal. Yeah. These horns here.

Oh, the second time. If it's not the best production of the 70s, we've already talked about Asia, songs in the Key of Life. It is up there. Yeah. It is up there. The quality of... There's nothing better than it.

Oh, my gosh. Everything sounds so delicious. Yeah. On this recording. there's space for everything. By the way, this is one of the tracks on the album that was written by Michael Jackson. So Michael wrote this song. It's an incredible song. And it's a ridiculous band. We got Lewis Johnson on bass, John Robinson on drums. J.R. Greg Fillen Gaines. Greg Philling's. All over this record. The great.

The great Greg Phillen Gaines. There is not modern keyboard piano playing without Greg Philan Gaines. We got David Williams and Marlowe Henderson on the guitars. And those three get, well, I mean, Lewis Johnson, of course, Johnson Brothers. Brothers Johnson, I should say. Brother Johnson, yeah. And they're all over. I think this is key base action on here. This may even be George Duke.

He's on some of this stuff. Uncredited. Yeah. Yeah. But Lewis Johnson, Greg Filigains, and J.R. Robinson. I know they had done some stuff before. This was Q with Quincy Jones. With Q.

But, like, that became, I know this record, like, those really became his guys. Yeah. And they overdub some stuff. There were several versions of this. There's a lot of fun lore about this in the studio. Well, and so the horn section is a section called the C-Wint Horns. And it's arranged by Jerry Hay. Hey.

Jerry Hay legend. Also, did you know Jerry Hay, uncle, of great jazz pianist, Henry Hay. Just want to shout out Henry Hay here. Henry Hay. Hey, we love your stuff. Yeah. But horns are amazing. The arrangements are amazing.

So we actually have here, here is a little. Actually, on the, don't stop to get enough, the string arrangements and the horn arrangements. Yeah. Oh, we about to get into something? Well, have you heard what Quincy said about the strings? No. You know, Michael didn't want the strings. Right.

I knew he didn't want them. Yeah. And then, you know, there's a famous interview with Quincy now where he's, He's like, when you think about that, what do you think of? Right. Dittal-l-l-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d- You know what I mean? And the way it's not wrong. And the way the stuff is art, because it's like, bo-de-da-dam.

Like the Boeing's and stuff, it's very, very intentional, you know. Well, Quincy, an amazing string-ranger. Here's Michael's home demo writing, don't stop. Bottle? Just, it's just, this is like his whole setup with everything. I mean, it's already there. I know. Oh, listen.

Just, it's missing one thing. I don't know. I'd be happy with this. Yeah. Boom, boom, podom. Even the demo vocal, sligs. So that's Michael Jackson's home demo of Don't Stop Tid again enough. So before we get to our categories, Peter here,

there's a few notable tracks that I want to mention before we get to our... Damn, we're not going to listen to the whole record? We're going to listen to most of it, but I just want to talk a little bit about some of the key tracks on here. I mean, they're all key tracks. This is really banger after banger. There's a couple of quibble bits that we could talk about. First is off the wall.

I like to think of Off the Wall, the title track. Written by Rod Temperton, who wrote many of the hits of Michael Jackson's early career, including thriller. This is like thriller before thriller. Yeah. Off the wall. It's weird. Yeah. It's scary.

Yeah. It's got kind of early Prague rock kind of vibes a little bit, right? Ah, it's crazy. We're off the wall. It's kind of Praguegy. Now, to be clear, this is a disco record. Yeah. Like, this is one of the more disc...

There's like two or three very disco tracks on it. Do I mean? Yeah. Michael's vocal is here. Oh my God. Improved. Yeah. Things he does.

Can you... Incredible. And then this is a weird, the way... I remember hearing this as like a kid I was like, because I was already kind of playing music, but I remember being like, what? Like, this start, like, started again, because it starts on like two or four, like... It doesn't start on one. Two, three, four.

It starts on like the end of four, right? Yeah. It's a very unusual place. It's... I remember even I was like, what? Because on the radio, stuff never started on anything but one, you know. Again, written by Rod Temperton, who we're going to get back to in a little bit here. Of course, Quincy brought in.

I mean, like, like Quincy truly, like, sometimes people are like, what does the producer really do? Quincy did, like, all that and a bag of chips. A good producer in this era specifically. The role changes and it has changed since then. But they really helped to, I think, hone the artist's musical direction and get the best out of them. and then also get the right people in the room at the right time.

That's the biggest part of it. Still is, in a way, although now it's become much more about production. Yeah, they can kind of do everything in a way. It's like... Next up is a song written by Paul McCartney, Sir Paul, which will be an ongoing relationship. Michael will have. Of course, he's got The Girl is Mine on Thriller,

which we can discuss later if you want. Yeah. And then Say, say, say on Paul's early 80s record. This is Girlfriend. Really, really fun song. Paul wrote that for Michael, but he also recorded it on a Wings album in 1978, London. next, another track that I want...

What do you think of that? How are you... Are we waiting for quibble bits? Can I quibble about that? You can quibble. You know, I understand the quibble about things like girl friends. I know what you're going to say, pal.

I've known you long enough. It's light-hearted. Well, I mean, yes. It's kind of like almost harkened back, harkens back to Michael with younger, a little bit of bubble gum pop, kind of like... To me, it's just,

it's a weird placement in this record. Actually, both of the big ballads are in a way, but the other one, which I'm sure. we're going to get to is so iconic and so associate with my, this one just seems weird on this record. But like those dominant seventh chords, like, I mean, I know people like, oh, you like it because

it's Jeff. Those are so slick. That elevates it a lot. I think it's a great song. I think Michael vocally on it is amazing. Of course, everybody playing on it is great. Just to me, it's a little bit of like it's a lull in the record. Remember we had that on Asia? That didn't get us in any trouble. Here's Paul's version. Okay.

From Wings. Yeah, it's an interesting, Harmon. I mean, I prefer Michael's. Yeah. But you get it. Like, here, it almost makes more sense here. I think it wasn't, you know what it was? Like, Michael was such a, what you call it, a sex symbol, I guess?

Or just so, like, girls, young women were so into them. I mean, I remember that when they were just like, you know, and, you know, like the Beatles or whatever. Like, so the lyrics for that and, like, I mean, they loved that. I guess it wasn't for me. So that's fine. That's no problem. Okay. Next up, just a notable track here.

It's The Falling in Love. This is written by Carol Bayer Sager and David Foster. Yeah. Fan of PMs over here. Oh, this is with Patty Austin. Yeah, Patty Austin is singing on this track as well. I love Patty Austin, but this is always a weird one. And David Foster's playing keyboards.

I love this track. Yeah. Very fostery. Yeah. Great track. Yeah. Great track. And it really shows like,

Michael's range. That was always just weird. It's like all of a sudden Patty Austin's in there. Who's killing it on that? Yeah. Another track that I really want to highlight, especially the end, it's, she's out of my life, and it's one of the ballads on here, which we might have some quibble with, but Michael's final verse is legendary here because Quincy Jones

describes recording this track and that Michael couldn't stop crying by the end of it. And that's how like emotionally connected Michael is. And I can tell you, man, I think this is what separates great vocalists from

not great vocalists, from just good vocalists, right? Is that like every note that Michael Jackson sings on this album, and I think every album after this, every word, every phrase, he is so emotionally invested in. Yeah.

Truly, like an actor is emotionally invested in their role. He's in the part. He is in the part all the time that it matters so much to him that it matters to us. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And that is the difference between like a technical singer or someone who's got a great voice, but doesn't sell the song as well as one of the all-time greats. And this is a great example. It's a good place to learn diminished chords. It is a great diminution. Damn indecision and cursive pride. My love for her like desire.

How great is that? So good. Incredible. Really coming out super influenced by when I think of home, Dina Raw. from the Wiz, that ballad. And just that whole way of, you know, Michael was so influential. Others, you know, DeBarge, for sure, El DeBarge, obviously Stevie Wonder was the way his ballad wore.

I mean, just that style. But yes, that vulnerability, like being part of the ball. Apparently, every take that he's saying that, he would cry. That's what Quincy said. It wasn't just like they got lucky on it. Quissie said every single one. And when he do it live, he would, I mean, women would be falling out, girls or young girls. This is what I'm saying.

It's not even an act. It's like he is, it's like how people talk about. Like, it's like, when he's a scarecrow, he's the, when people talk about, like,

how to, how to, how to win friends and influence people, that kind of like, Dale Carnegie, yeah, exactly.

But it's like, you know, you have to really care about the person you're speaking with for them to feel you really caring. Right.

And the trick is, you actually have to care about it. And that's, this is not like, I'm just going to, like, put on a thing. And he's like,

actually does care about it to the point where he can't help it, which takes me to our next category. So let's do some desert island tracks. Okay, let's go to that desert. Let's have a little dessert. How about it? A little dessert island track.

So, Peter, you're a desert island track? Yeah, I can't help it. Stevie Wonder. Yep. Suu Seguer Green. Yep. Bed. Perfection.

I mean, everybody. It is perfect. It is perfection. Since, roads, jumps. Oh, man. Right up to that range. We might get to that in the nerd note for our studio bro. Let's do it.

That's key bass, right? You got Lewis Johnson on the bass from the credits. Oh, you do? Okay. Of course. Double up the vocals. A triple. Chorus.

Ben. I think he's purposely, one of those voices is significantly flatter. Yes, I was about to say. And I think he's doing that on purpose to enhance the chorus. It is. And to fit in with the harmony and to give it a little more humanity. Incredible. Very insensual.

Sophisticated. I know a lot of people are like, oh, is the out of tune there. That's all intentional. Strings. And the synths. Yeah. The Stevie Wonder and Greg Philan Gaines. Yeah.

On the keyboards on this session. Oh, that song is the Key of Life. I mean, it has that similar. Ovoire. Ooh, man. The drum fills are perfection on here. Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

And it's also, it's in your repertoire. I've played it my whole life practically. Yeah. It is almost a standard. this point for most people. I think it's an easy, we played it there on the intro, which was so much fun. But like, man, it just, like a lot of the great Stevie tunes, it kind of plays itself. Yeah. And it's funny because it was always like, oh, this is the jazz, the jazziest thing on the record, which I never, now I kind of get it after all these years. Because I never, I don't think of this as

a jazz cut, you know what I mean? Or as being necessarily any more jazz because to me, Michael's vocal sensibilities as a musician, were very jazz, I mean, not jazz oriented, but the jazz sensibility to it. And so for this, I think because the harmony is so, like, that A-7 to A-flat. But I mean, to me, like, this whole record has a lot. The common tone of that D-sharp on top. Yeah. A-7.

But it's all like, it's no more harmony or jazzier than any of Cv1 or other music. I guess just his world is so unique and has that element that when it comes on kind of a high-level bespoke disco album, I'm not insulting it by calling it that. But it's a little bit like, wow, you know, but to me, it's the perfect. kind of slight little off the pathway in this record, you know. This wasn't a hit or anything. Ride that down for bespoke playlist titles. High-level bespoke disco.

I mean, it is. It's a disco record, but this is not a disco track. There's really only a couple disco tracks on this record. There's a few. But this isn't one of them, I don't think. So let me set the stage for you. We're going to come back and listen to some of that because I do have my...

Yeah, you got your impact moment. My apex moment is on there. I'm greedy. Sue me. 1996. Yes. I'm a junior in high school. Yeah. Congrats. You made it. I own it. That's your final year? I bought a, I bought a 1984 Chevy S-10 for 500 bucks. Nice. Again, it's 1996. On credit? No. Cash. No, I saved up. I had some gigs. I saved up. Driving around High Ridge to teach various little kids how to play piano. And I was not not aware of this album up to this point. I was too young. I was born when it was made. Thriller at the time when it came out was and still remains one of my all-time favorite.

I think thriller is as close as a perfect pop record that's ever been made. I think I'll agree that it should be talked about in that sense. But I didn't really know off the wall because it was a little bit before my time. Thriller was so massive and then bad was so massive. Those two specifically, and I love Dangerous too, by the way. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But like that run, Thriller and Beyond, kind of just took over my early childhood. Michael Jackson was my favorite artist, danced in my kitchen every night to Thriller

when it came out. And it wasn't until I was a teenager, like 16-17, that I discovered this specific track. I forget where I heard it, but I said, is that Michael Jackson? This was also, I was into jazz at the time, so I was like, this is a different sensibility

than Thriller. This is less pot. This has more of the things that I'm into right now, and it was this. Perfect. Yep. The handcloth. Yeah.

Big Four handcloth. Yeah, it is Big Four. Second verse. Big ass. Perfect disco track. Perfect. Yeah. That's a classic.

Again, the sea wind horns here. Jerry Hay. It's like a supple of breeze coming from sea winds. That bass drum sound? Perfect. The sound of, oh, my God. The whole track is magical. Yeah.

The harmony here. The horns. The bridge. The bridge. I know. Oh, the bass here. Lewis. I love this little segue.

A little instrumental. I remember I was like, damn, what is it? You sparklies? modulation. Oh, no. Second time. Wait for it. Save it.

Off one beat. Why not? When they finished track and that, they must have like just handshakes all around, break out the cigars. They had to know that they just killed that. Yeah. They crushed that.

Right, right. That's unbelievable. But you think about the final product, like of this record, but that track in particular, and I actually, I don't even think this was the first single. It may have been. I think it was, don't stop. But I remember when this came out on the radio, man, it was like, damn. Like, the sound, the whole thing.

And when you're a kid, you don't quite associate. I mean, I remember exactly where I was when I heard this. And the vacant loud across from my parents saw somebody brought out a boombox. And it's like, it came off. on the radio and everybody was like, what? You know? And then being at the skating rick, like, the next day and you hear. But think about what, like, something what we just heard did for the culture. Oh, my God.

Like, of the world, for sure. But I mean, like, everything was so radio-driven. And I'll just say, like, I think a big difference between off the wall, obviously off-the-wall, and I couldn't find off-the-wall in my LP collection. I know it's there somewhere. But we do have this. Ever heard of that? Thriller.

But, like, the big difference between those records. because there's so much commonality. Q, Teperton, the rhythm, I mean, a lie, Michael Jackson mainly, and his musical prowess and his stamp on it. But I think that, you know, off the wall was radio driven. And it was, yes, it was a cross-door,

and it was a huge record. I mean, it's one of the best-selling records of all time if it wasn't being overshadowed by the best-selling record. But Thriller was, like, right at the cusp, but it became, it was MTV-driven. Yeah, that's right. Especially for white America. For white America, like, that's what really pushed through.

Moonwalk pre- Videos. There were videos for this, but the Rock With You video is him in like a sparkly disco jump suit. Yeah, there was nowhere to watch it. And there was nothing, yeah, exactly right. But it was also like, it was, I mean, it was a top billboard charting and stuff, but it got, not thriller.

Off the wall got pushed out of the Grammys. I mean, I think it got like a R&B song award or something. Yeah. But it was still like the segregated radio stuff. There was segregated radio stuff. He wasn't played on white radio. So like St. Louis, no 106, but he was played on 108. It won a Grammy for Best.

male R&B vocal performance. Yeah, for one track or something. For Don't Stop. But it did... By then it was like the biggest selling record of that year of 80. Yeah, it had two number one hits, don't stop to you get enough and rock with you.

It had a number 10 with off the wall and a number 10 with shoes out of my life. It sold over 7 million initial copies in its first year. Has sold now over 20 million certified eight times platinum remains one of the best selling albums. Four top 10 singles.

I think that's extremely rare. It's extremely rare. It peaked at number three on the Billboard charts, reach number one on the Billboard top black albums charge now called the top R&B hip-hop albums. For 16 weeks it was number one. But so the trend... I just want to finish one thing real quick.

What I meant about the culture, I mean, just the culture of humanity. 100%. And like, the U.S. sure, but like what like... Like this put more happiness and health and dance. You talk about a little dude in High Ridge. 100%. Japan. I mean, just

everywhere around the world. Yeah. And we don't have an artist like that. We probably won't ever have it again. We're so in our little boxes with each other and fighting over stupid stuff. I mean, you could say someone like, but even like Beyonce or Taylor Swift are polarizing now in a way that they wouldn't have been.

And I'm not, I don't think it's them. I think it's us. I think it's the culture itself. I think the music change. I don't want to be, you know, yelling at the clouds. Boom were yelling at the clouds. Yeah. But I mean, the fact that like you hear that rhythm, like it's, yes, it's Mike, like it's his, the way that he approaches things, his syncopation, his

vocal, vocal abilities, his musical abilities, Quincy's production, the like the humanity that was still in the music. I remember this record when I started kind of learning about playing and stuff, I was like, I would go back and listen to this and be like, wait, is that drum machine? Because I thought, I was like the way that the rhythm section was, but that was like there was so much vibe and humanity to it.

And I think it's something, when you talk about something, when you basically, as you say, have a disco record or a half disco record and it ages so well, that kind of, yeah, it belittles it a little bit for us to even throw in, you know, disco. Well, let's talk a little bit right now, Peter, about Rod Temperton. that last track Rock With You was written by Rod Temperton, who was from the band, formerly of the funk disco band Heat Wave. Yeah. And he originally wrote Rock with you under the title, I want to eat you up. Quincey Jones requested more radio-friendly lyrics. Here's Rod Temperton's. This is radio-driven. Here's Rod's original demo. This is pretty great. Some of these things are added, I think. Definitely the drums. He's got the outline there. A little pitchy, as they would say on the shows. It's all right, though.

Yeah, he's got the fun. That's great. UK's own Rod Tamerton. Give it up, everybody. Here's another... Shot on Rod, though. Yeah, no, incredible artist. Wrote, again, so many of Michael Jackson's biggest hits.

Well, supposedly, what do you have, three or four tunes on this record? Something like that. Two. Oh, yeah, two. I believe two. Okay. But apparently, they were like Michael was, or I guess Quincy got the songs, and he was hoping that...

He was hoping Michael, he wanted Michael to pick one of them. Yeah. I think it might be more to suit. Anyway, or maybe. It could be three. Yeah. But anyway, he wanted Michael to pick one. And Michael's like, I love them all.

I want to do them all. And they push some other stuff off. That's great. Yeah. And then, of course, Thriller, you know, goes next level. I also, I have this. This is Rock with you with just strings, Rhodes, and Michael's voice. Check this out.

And horns. Oh. It's a touchdown. Damn. And an extra point. Oh, let's go That ain't nothing that you can do Relax your mind

Oh, let's go unison And we can ride the boogies Yeah, man Shout out to those string players Because you can hear them like This wasn't just like, yes, was great string writing Q hooked up like the production of it and all that But they are playing their asses off

Like you can hear it in there Those are like crack players putting a vibe on it. Like, if you just went in and, like, read this down, like, they, I don't know, you know what, this was all added in another studio. It was all recorded separately probably afterwards, and they were listening to it. And shout out to them for getting the vibe and bringing the vibe. For sure. Peter, let's get to some categories here. Your Apex moment is Can't Help It from, basically the end of Can't Help It. Yes. Oh, my God. He goes up to one of minor 11. I'm going to get nerdy, but he goes up to a...

No, I can't help... So that's minor nine on that F minor. He says, And then he's going to go up to the Oh! Literally goes to the impact When he's improvising here. What he sings here? Eho. That syncopation?

Killing. What? Killing. Kill it. And this is a fade-out, which is a quibble bed I have. But for some reason, this one works for me. He threw it.

He threw it. Michael, man. All right, that is an excellent apex moment. For me, man, I'm going. This might be actually, I'm not sure. Let us know in the comments. Who wrote Working Day and Night? Do you know?

That might be Rod Temperton, actually. I don't know. Here's the horns, though. This is my next moment. Oh, man, Louis Johnson was crazy. I'm like, Oh, Lewis Johnson and he's co-wrote it. Again, those horns, Jerry Hay.

More funk than disco to me. How great is that? Oh, my, yeah. So that horn breakdown is my Ipex moment for the middle. Good one. That was a great one. Bespoke playlist title. So, Peter, you have... What the hell did I come up with?

You have Art Meets Chart. That's the name of the playlist. Art Meets Chart. I think it's a great playlist. So you know what you have on here? Yeah. You've got Art Meets Chart, right? You got Michael Jackson off the wall. Yeah.

Right? You got a little Prince. Purple Rain, for sure. For sure. Maybe you got a little Steely Dan Asia, perhaps. Maybe, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

But there's a handful, a smattering of albums. where the art and the chart really come at a high level. Yeah. And maybe not so much anymore, but it happened a little bit more thriller, of course, too. What, no? Which? Who, thriller?

Oh, Michael Jackson's thriller. Michael Jackson, thrill. I've heard of that. I did have an alternative. Handcrafted Hit Factory. My idea with this, like, to me, the thing about this record, and there's very few,

and you don't want to have a whole bunch clogged in, occasionally there's this intersection where everything is just off the charts. I don't know if that means it's a perfect record, because, you know, I do have some quibble bits in terms of, some of the repertoire or whatever. But I mean, like the playing, I mean, look, assume me, I'm a musician. So I love great playing.

But, I mean, shout out Quincy Jones for like making sure that not only the right people in the room, but the right stuff ended up on the cutting room floor. Because they had a bunch of great musicians that record on this that had never got on there because it was like put piece in it together. It's like, it's great to go into a jazz record. We're like, we made a whole record in two hours. But sometimes it takes, you know, a whole lot of crafting to do it to be like, we're going to make something that's going to last for the ages.

Mine, I just have modern pop masterpieces. That's pretty boring. Actually, I couldn't come up with anything else. Up next, if this were on a streaming platform and a recommendation for Up Next would come up, you picked some really good ones. You picked Stevie Wonder's song in The Key of Life. I think that's great. Pick Thriller, of course.

Picks Sinatra at the Sands, which is Quincy Jones. Yeah. I think that's one of his other greatest records with Count Basie band. I mean, he's conducting the band and did some of the arrangements and stuff. I have Herbie Hancock's sunlight from around the same time. Oh. You like Herbie in the 70s? We're going to get there.

That's a whole episode. Herbie in the 70s. Like, he's already lurking in the background. I've already... He's lurking in the background. I have the episode completely finished in my mind. Yeah, if you all don't know sunlight. Okay.

My other up next... You know, I had actually... Earthwind and Fires, I am. Because of the David Foster collaboration, after the love is gone. After the love is gone. Yeah. And also Earthwinned Fire

mixed a sort of boogie of... Yeah, of off the wall with... They were kind of in some perfect production, too. The production, the arrangements. Yeah, this is incredible. Same playlist, to me, is off the wall. Incredible.

Okay. Quibble bits. It's time. Let's start with yours. I don't have many on this one. Honestly, I mean, I think... So you could talk about the ballads, you see... You know, which I think you will talk about the ballads.

But you got none. That's the... I think you're... I think your girlfriend thing is valid. I actually don't. Of all of the, on Thriller and Off the Wall, the two Paul McCartney's, I could kind of take or leave.

I mean, I like him, but they're not, they're not my favorite parts of the other. Yeah, I like them. I just feel like they don't quite fit. And this is a small, like when you have such a perfect type of record or a great record,

maybe you need a little bit of lull or some moment. I love Paul McCartney, too. It's nothing to be in Paul McCart. Of course. No, no, no. And it's just, and obviously they had such a fruitful, you know, collaboration when they did it.

It's just on this particular record, it always feels, I always, I'm going to quibble. I mean, it's all good, you know, but anything that I would skip over, which I would. I kind of think they should have just made... But again, for some people, like, if you have a young female of a certain age, like, that was a coming of a ride of passage. That was like, he was singing to you, you know, and I get it.

I think Michael and Paul should have just made a duo album together. They should have just made a band. Right. You know what I mean? The Beatles Five. No. Right. Something.

But they could have just made a band together. they made their own album. Well, and think about, like, you know, the Beatles and whatever it was 64 on Ed Sullivan show, Michael Jackson with Jackson 5, but little Michael out in front being on Ed Sullivan. There's a lot of, like, connections there with the kind of cultural zeitgeist that they did. Okay, what are your equivalent of it? So, okay, well, yeah, girlfriend. But then also just there's two ballads on the B side that in a row that are both in the E.

Yeah. Which I'm a little bit like, yeah. Which is a little bit weird. I think most people don't care or whatever, and that's fine. But, like, that's getting very quibbally, to have two ballads and the same key. Yeah, this is kind of what we quibble with. He's a good key.

He's good at you. With Steely Dan's Asia, just about the track order, and that's a very small quibble. Stumbometer. One other thing, though, I had for quibble is that as much great stuff is in there, and this is very tiny kind of thing. But, like, when you played some of those stems, like with the horns, some of that stuff I heard for the first time,

like, it's such a thick record. Agreed. And the production is so good. The engineering, and what is the gentleman's name? I always forget is that. that dude is a bad MF, the guy who, same guy who did Thriller. That's Q's guy. I mean, this is Q's guys.

You know what I'm saying? Like, this is Q's guys. One of the most incredible engineers. Bruce Sweden. Yeah, genius. Like, the fact that he could place all that in there, and the record sounds so good, like, rock with you. But, like, you have to really listen and isolate things to get some of that string stuff.

And I get it, so, like, I'm like, I can't even say it's too thick because it really is perfect. But sometimes I'm like, I would have loved to be able to hear all that. But with everything, going on, they did an amazing job. So. Yeah. You know what? That's not, that's, that's a decent take, actually, if you're going quibble with anything. Some of the stuff. Because as much as I listened to that record, and so you had those stems, I was like, dang, I didn't even totally notice that stuff. It is very maximalist. Okay. So the snobometer. Is it super snobby? It's a 10 or not very snobby.

It's a 10 or it's a one. I like how you're trying to get dog bad. You're trying to cut off any of any of the set. Is it really snobby? A snobby album? Is it a 10? Or is it not a snobby album? It's an accessible album. It's a one. Okay. I'll put it a three then. Okay. I'm going to go one. I think it's his most accessible. It's a disco. It's like Kenny G. You think that's the most accessible?

Kenny G. You said Aunt Linda loves Kenny G. You told me. We're sidetracked with the... I think we let our avatars of Ethan Iverson and Antland to take over. Well, let's... No, that's part of it. Would Ethan Iverson, what would he think?

How would he rate this record? He loves this record. Does he though? Yeah, of course he does. He made that like, I don't know. We got to bring him on. Is it better than K-O-B? It's better than kind of

No. Maybe. Maybe. After listening to it and diving into it again. It might be as good. I think it's more important. I think it's contributed more than humanity. I think Kind of Blue is more important, but I think this is

as good of a recording for sure. Oh, my kid. Accoutrements, the cover. You got nine. I got seven. And I don't know why I don't say 10, because there's nothing could be better about it. But tell me why you think it's seven.

I think it's good, not great. I think for pop records at that time, I think it was important because it was so intentional. I love that to have him like in the tucks, but he's got the socks, which was his trade, you know. But yeah, maybe you mean artistically. Oh, you don't like the way he looks. No, it's great, but I just think, it's good.

It's good. It's just like... This is so different than jazz records. I know. Thriller is amazing. Yeah. The lion on the inside, you know what? The tiger on the inside, excuse me?

I would actually rate this lower. You're crazy. But I'm more, but I'm more attached to this record. There's a baby tiger. This was weird. Even at the time I was like, wow, because I was in eighth grade. We got to know. Peter, this is so much fun.

Thank you for listening. For Open Studio members, check out our nerd nook. We're going to be talking a little bit about Can't Help It in some of the chords there. And leave us a rating and review wherever you get your podcast. Yes, please do. Did you know we're in the top 25 now? We are, we're making moves.

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