You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Jazz Musicians Get Real About ‘Kind Of Blue'

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Kind of Blue is one of the most iconic albums in the jazz idiom. It's inspired so many of us that we even use it as the modern standard for a great album. Join Adam and Peter as they breakdown what exactly makes this album so great. Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter, you know what this bell signifies? I do not. It means that it's time. Time for... The bell means that it's time for KB. Right on time. I'm Adam Manus. I'm Peter Martin.

And you're listening to The You'll Hear at Podcast. Jazz Appreciation and Love coming at you. Appreciation and Love coming at you. Today, sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio. RadioJazz.com for all your jazz lesson needs, Peter. It's another edition of what makes this album great, and it's an album that we've been alluding to since the beginning of this series.

In fact, it's part of one of... It's the beginning of time. Yeah, honestly. It's one of the categories that we have on our scorecard here is in direct reference to this album. It is, of course, Miles Davis's Immortal 1959 masterpiece Kind of Blue, and it's time we had a little review. Yes.

I love the reverential attitude we're already bringing to this. And I think as we get into this, we realize like we've really, we've set the bar with this album. We've talked about a lot. We've joked about a lot, always with love and reverence. But like, this is where the rubber's going to hit the road, my friend. Yeah, you know, this is a tough one because it is, it is overhyped. It gets all the hype.

Whenever people talk about jazz or anything related to jazz, this album usually is one of first thing that comes up, it's at the top of everyone's list or near the top of everyone's list of greatest jazz albums of all time. It's near the top of everyone's list for greatest albums of all time, usually. Right, but what I'm very interested in number nine are snobble meter, because does it show up on a snob's top ten? Like you're saying everyone, but does it, though? That's going to be the big question. I have my answer for it, but I'm curious to hear what your answer is. Well, my page, I have a blank page. I am a blank page on this one. I'm, I'm, there's no way you're a blank page on this one. I want to come to. I want to come to

to this album with with with as much objectivity as I can. Obviously it's an incredible album. Our number 10, and we're going to go over our categories again in case this is your first time. We might have a lot of first time listeners on this episode I'm thinking. Just as this album is an entry point into the world of jazz, is it for better or for worse? I would say for better. I think so. It's a beautiful entry point. It's not the only entry point, but it's a wonderful one. So let's go just briefly. Let's touch on what our categories will be. And then I thought we can maybe talk about our own history with the album. And just to be clear, these are the categories for all of,

this is not just specific to today. No, we've been doing this from the beginning. It's a hundred point scale. There's 100 points that we can totally score. And there are 10 categories, each worth 10 points. We like to call that math, so easy, even a jazz pianist can add it up. Correct. So our categories are as follows.

Playing, vibe, compositions, sound, sequence, cover art, title lore snobometer which will explain the sniffometer no but you know a snobber like something fishy with this record we'll explain more more what that means when we get and then the big controversial one it's not controversial at all today it's going to be it's not our last category has always been is it better than kind of blue and today it's and the idea I feel like this I feel like this is going to be like the repeating images on the computer where it blows up okay you know well we'll We'll talk about that when we get to the last category. Why are you frustrated already, my friend?

You're not seeing the vision, Peter. You're not getting the category. You're not giving it its proper due. Foreshadowing. I'm looking at this as an unanswerable question number 10. Just so you know, this is going to be like I did not compute. I am exploding. I feel like there's only one answer and it's crystal clear what it is.

Just all the way we've been. Let's wait until we get there. Okay. Okay. Okay. So Peter, I'm curious about your history with Kind of Blue. Do you remember the first time you listened to this record? I do.

I mean, I remember. I don't remember the exact moment, but I remember the period. I was about 13 years old, maybe, maybe even 12. Yeah. And it was, but it's not the first Miles Davis.

I mean, I probably heard it just because this record's out there so much. It's not like I didn't come into contact, but I didn't really sit and listen to it. It was actually the second Miles Davis record, oddly enough, because I know it's an entry point for a lot of folks. Miles Davis,

my funny Valentine was the first record. I really, like, listened to and, like, loved. But I heard a fair amount of Miles Davis because my dad was listening to jazz. He loved, well, the Smithsonian box set, which had Bags Groove on it with Thelonious Monk and stuff like that that I really remember from even a younger age. But I remember when I heard this, this, I think was the first album that was really a straight ahead record of, you know, I mean, I'd heard like, you know, funk stuff and pop stuff and classical, a lot of different things where I was

like, damn, that's a vibe. I don't know if I was hip enough to refer to it as that at the tender young almost certainly not. You're lower now, my friend. I like this. Uh, yeah, no. Can we negotiate number 10 now? Because I feel like I'm in a position. No, no, no, no, no. I want to hear more about your lore. I want to hear about your lore.

So this is the first straight ahead jazz album that you. That I really like identified with being an amazing studio vibe. So because to me, my funny Valentine, which is, of course, you know, later on I also heard four and more from the same concert at Lincoln Center with a late, you know, in 1963, a later edition of the Miles Davis quintet. but just a few years later, this was Sex Ted actually, but that was such a vibe

for a live out, for a live performance. I mean, you can hear the audience, you know, there's interaction with the audience and stuff. The sound is a live recording, not a club recording, because I also heard around the same time

live at the Black Hawk. Like, those are the three Miles records, kind of blue, live at the Black Hawk Saturday night and Miles Davis live, my funny Valentine. Interesting.

So two of them were being live. So from this was like the first time when I was like, man, vibe a studio record can have a jazz record and like that's what i'll always associated with i mean of course the playing's great the tunes and stuff um but i didn't it wasn't until later that i got into like really understanding the modality and about you know what was a breakthrough with that and um but it was really just about that sound and that vibe yeah yeah yeah i remember the first time

i heard this i actually remember buying the cd i still have the memory of it was it the one with the Columbia Masterworks one with the corny little inlaid thing. You know what? It was a, it was, I think it was some anniversary edition.

It had like a booklet in it. I remember that. Well, CDs had booklets in them back then, my friend. It might have been the Columbia Masters one. I don't know. It was a nice edition.

It was like, it was like a quality. Okay. And the CD itself was red. The disc was red. Oh, wow. No,

I never saw that one. Yeah. But yeah, I was, when I was a sophomore in high school, I won the All-District piano chair for the jazz band. I meant to congratulate you. So I'm sorry, I forgot.

Congratulations on that. This is like, I think in St. Louis, they called all-suburban, but out in the sticks, they called it All-District. Yeah. And I won that chair without really listening to a ton of jazz, without really knowing who Miles Davis was. And I remember, I forget who the adjudicator was who actually directed the jazz band.

But he was like, he told my parents. He's like, make sure that he listens to Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, and get him kind of blue. And so they got me, for Christmas, they got me Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Verve Jazzmaster CDs. We've talked about this before.

Those two compilations for Oscar and Bill Evans. And then on my own, I think when I was at a borders somewhere, probably in Sunset Hills, Missouri. Nice. I bought my own copy of Kind of Blue. And just like you, yeah, I didn't really understand, like,

anything about modal jazz or anything of what that meant. I think it was my very first time hearing John Coltrane play anything. And I was, like, confused and, like, just blown away by how raw it was compared to everything else going on. Yeah. And I must have played that album just nonstop for, like, a year. I mean, I just loved it so much. It just felt so easy to listen to. Yeah.

I could get it. It helped me to understand sort of, like, the workings of improvisation and what was going on. and I mean, the rhythm section sounds so swinging and the sound of it is so good. So I think for a lot of musicians, when they hear it for the first time, there's probably a pretty universally positive reaction. I'm sure, tell us your story,

your kind of blue story in the comments. Maybe you hated it. Maybe you didn't like it. Maybe it took a while to grow on, but for me it was like, it was pretty straightforward. That's interesting. I'll be very surprised if we get any, I've never heard of anybody saying they hated it

upon first hearing it. I think definitely a visceral reaction. Certainly I had one. It sounds like you had one. which normally would, you know, be a clue towards you love it or you hate it. I do think this idea, like some people maybe talk themselves into not hating but disliking it because they think it's overrated, overhyped, not, I mean, full disclosure. I don't have time to contact my attorneys in South Louisiana.

But I actually have a video talking and I kind of refer to this, I think in the title or at the beginning as I don't say it's overrated. People keep saying that's not an overrated. I say it's overhyped. It is overhyped. Yeah. 100% it's overhymed. it's not that even if this record comes out to be a hundred out of a hundred, I would say overhyped,

only because we never want to say something is so great that it's to the exclusion of other records. So I can already give you a little bit of a... I don't even think it's Miles Davis's best album, in my opinion. I take. Yeah. Like it. I agree. I would agree. Or I would say it's not singularly his greatest. It's not like, oh, it's head and shoulders above any of his other. There are five, six, seven, eight records I can think of right now that I love. Yeah. And I think are like masterpieces like the sketches of Spain. Actually, I don't think it's any of the players on here. Right. I don't think it's their best albums.

Like Cannonball, Train, Bill Evans. Interesting. Jimmy Kyle. I don't think Winton Kelly, I don't, man, it might be Winton Kelly's best album. He's only on one track. Right. You know what I mean. It's such an iconic thing. It's just one of those things where it's like, it's greatness for sure, but it's not greatness that only existed on this

at this time, but it was a moment for sure. And we'll get into that with the lore a little bit. I'm going to save that one. I'm going to save that one. Can I put up my screen? Because I just wanted to show we were talking about the, yeah, So this is the one, I just remember when I got it on CD, I'd heard it before this on LP, when I first got the CD. Oh, yeah, no. That's horrible. I have no idea what that

covers. That's terrible. But this was big because this was a big selling CD because it was right after CDs came out in like 85. That's such a shame. It's such, I mean, because look at the original. Yeah, I had one with the original cover on it. Well, you were classy. Just a little younger. Let's check it out. Our first category is

playing. And I thought for playing, we would start with this gem. Freddie Freeloader Peter not Freddie the Freeloader Freeloader but Freddie Freeloader This is the only track that Winton Kelly plays piano on Everything else is Bill Evans We should mention

Miles Davis on trumpet Cannonball Adderly on alto saxophone John Colchin on tenor Bill Evans on piano on all tracks But this, Whitney Kelly on this track And Paul Chambers on bass Jimmy Cobb on drums Yeah

And playing we're always thinking about the improv Which one of the greatest souls ever is about to happen But listen to the playing of the head, dude, and the intonation. It's so swinging there. It's so perfect. Piano tuning is not perfect. I will make a note of that. It's not bad, though.

No, it's not bad. It's got character. It does. And classic phrasing. Shout out to PC and J.C. Jimmy C. I'm just like laying it down. The whole album.

I could sing every solo on this entire album. Is there anything earth-shattering? he's playing though. Yes. But in totality. I'm saying Winton Kelly's soul. It's not like some kind of like Art Tatum

Solo piano master that it's like why is it like the perfect jazz piano soul which I think it kind of is because it's like the totality of it. It just works so well.

And then Miles here. Go ahead cut them off. It's your record date. It's all good. Hey. Now this is Freddie Free Loder it's a blues. It's a B-flat blues.

A weird blues. It's weird because the last two bars are an A flat dominant 7, that flat 7 dominant, which is, I've never heard it on any other blues. Mobile interchange? Perhaps, yeah. Patting himself on the back there.

The details that Jimmy Cobb was into this. Are there any other, yeah, are there any other blues that end on that flat 7? I think there's one on Coltrane plays of blues. Oh, yeah. Which would have been a little bit after this. Yeah, at A flat 7.

Then we transcribe Miles is so, on this in the old Open Studio Pro piano master's club. It's a great one. Because everybody transcribes Freddie Fruitloader, us included. But I was like, man, this Miles solo is so good. Right.

This last chorus, I'd take time. I don't think it was needed by Miles. There, I said it. Well, it's great playing, but... Was he waiting? It's setting something up here, isn't it? It is.

It's going to set up perhaps the greatest... Actually, I should say, Entry? Yeah. Greatest entry and maybe solo on the whole record. Yeah. Actually, I would say the second of the last chorus maybe wasn't needed. It's all perfect, man.

Don't change that. Right. It's like you were lulled into this like grooving, you know, like wind down. Right. And then train grabs you by the shirt by the Amazon shirt collar. It shakes you loose and he's like, wake the F up. Right. And I love like Jimmy Cobb and PC.

Like, they're still right there. Dude. They're like, we got you. Oh. It's like Miles is playing some great stuff. And the train's like, hey. Oh, I love that. The way he ends these phrases.

When he's reaching, this is not like, I'm making everything sound easy. Which Hannibal for Shalry does. He kind of plays in. So this is like forcing it out. He's got his Lidian Dominant chops down. You've got to train stuff together. He studied trains. Oh.

Hey. Oh, masterful. I love how everyone's like, this album's all about minimalism. Not the way trains play. Not the way cannibals play either. Really, not the way anyone's playing except the rhythm section of miles. Could you have also, by the way,

and this album is such a great example of this, two saxophonists play next to each other who couldn't be more complimentary but different. Yeah. Like, well, like when they're playing together, so match, you know, blending so well. Two different styles. It's very different. Yeah.

So I'm saying, Cannibal, everything's easy and like the bounce. Smooth. Like, uh, the blues is kind of what connects them. Like, therefore, the blues is similar. Oh, my God. One of the most copied alto sax parts ever. Hey. Got out to PC for continuing to play inventive, interesting lines and locked in with time.

I don't think they were iPad babies. They didn't have a problem concentrating. No, I mean, in my opinion, in my humble opinion, PC's greatest bass player, whoever lives. I think he fulfills the role better than anybody. Perfect. How long these tracks are, too? How long is this?

Almost 10 minutes. Yes. But it's great. So many iconic things happen. Copy-referential things happen on this album. Did you question? He's playing a E-flat, the flat-9. Yeah, I mean, bass players don't come in early.

I know Oscar Pettiford, and we can make arguments, of course, for Ray Brown, and certainly the maestro, Ron Carter, is on the Mount Rushmore. But I think Paul Chambers, he's just everything he recorded so perfect and so swinging and just understated in the beauty of his composition. I mean, you could say as a rhythm section bassist, foundational bassist, the greatest. Like that would be a strong. It's hard. I would put him in Ron,

like Ron Carter. I mean, Ron Ray and Paul. Did you ever hear me? No, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe. But I think for me, PC and Ron Carter, man, Ray.

That trio is so good. So, playing wise, Peter, have you ever heard anybody tell you? I had some Joker once telling me that an album is nearly perfect. The only problem with it is Cannonball doesn't fit. Miles is doing this impressionist,

thing and Train is doing his sheets of sound thing over the modal stuff and the Cannonball's too down the middle he's too straight ahead, he's too boring for this album and I just couldn't disagree more because

Cannibal is the perfect fit he's like the perfect thing in between Miles and Train like Miles with these long beautiful melodic solos Coltrane with these like these sort of like avant guard are You know, these like flowing sheets of arpeggios.

And his rhythmic approach very different. Yes, totally. And the sound totally different. The sound, yeah. The phrasing. The raw edge to it. Cannonball with an edge, but it's more of this like refined. It's free.

I mean, it's like shades of free playing already. It's incredible. And I think Cannibal, like, and you're right, the blues ties the three of them together, I think. But like, I really think that each one of them is playing such an important role. This album wouldn't be nearly as good. without all three of those horn soloists involved. I agree.

I think they're perfect combination for this kind of music. I agree. I mean, I would say that anytime you're talking about this is a perfect record, this is the greatest record or whatever, and a lot of people saying that the fact that there's only five tunes on it, they're long, the solos are extended. That if anybody didn't fit, there'd be no way it could be a great record. You know what I mean? Because there's just too much, it's not like Cannibal's only playing some harmony parts on the

melody or something. So obviously, the sound is great with the, three horns. That's wonderful. Incredible. But I mean, I would say if anything, Wynton Kelly, I mean, you know, he's not a horn player, but a lot of, you know, a lot of the attention or kind of reference to this recording is this solo.

Yeah. You know, which is funny because as great as we think this is as pianist or anything, like you said, the mild solo is great. The train solo is more revolutionary, maybe. But the Cannibal solo maybe is more swinging. They're all really good solos, man. They're all just great demonstrations of their personalities. and Miles or whoever, I mean, it was Miles,

but it was a combination of them because it was so loosely put together. We're going to talk about that with the lore. Yeah, for sure. But, like, it was crafted into something where these different personalities came together for an overall story. You hear that when you listen to that whole track,

and please listen to it without our jabbering on top of it as well. And so to say that, oh, he didn't fit in. Yeah, that's the whole point. That is the whole point. You know what I mean? After John Coltrane sold, you want to hear another train solo?

Yeah. I mean, if anything, Witten Kelly's solo is maybe more, straight down the middle fastball. What was the deal with Winne Kelly on this? Because Bill Evans was kind of on the way out of this band, right? Is that correct? Like Bill Evans had been in the band.

Well, no, I think Win Kelly was already in the band. He was already in the band. Yeah, he kind of brought back Bill Evans for this, I think. Which makes sense because all of the modal stuff, like, so what? And of course, blue and green, which we can talk about. Yeah. Flamenco sketches, which is very closely sounds like piece, piece, which is a bill thing. Yeah, well, which were the ones that are like pretty much, for sure, flamenco sketches,

but all blues, I don't know, but blue and green. Yeah, blue and. You know, like, those are kind of known to be, you know, if not. I mean, Miles got credit for every single tune of this. I didn't realize. I thought they were shared, because I've seen that written a couple of them with Bill Adams. I think it was just. Those for sure, blue and green and flamenco sketches.

Have a strong Bill vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So most likely, you either came from him or collaborated or ideas or whatever. So our first kind of word playing, what do you got? Okay. I have nine.

Good, gravy. Caleb, shut down the podcast. We're done. No, a nine is an A. And nine is, okay, let me just explain why, obviously, why is not a 10? You land this man, thank you so much. If any playing is a 10, Peter, this has got to be a 10. Okay, but if everything is a 10, like you even admitted earlier, I'm not sure that this is

Miles' best, my favorite playing of his, or his best playing on record. It's great. But if you were to tell me what is the greatest Miles Davis solo of all time, and that's so subjective, right? But of the ones that I think are great, it's not on this record. You're going to tell me, we're going to listen to, we're about to listen the blue and green and you're going to say or the or so what i'm going to say that his soul on stella by starlight on my final time is better to me is more my favorite so i can have your opinion but

so do i have to say that every miles no great miles a soul is a 10 no you do yeah and i would say that kind of for everybody like train is no they're all like right there the playing and the other thing is like what makes this album great to me it's not like all the playing is you know some records like the playing is off the charts and the sequence and the composition stuff don't matter as much it's like just incredible playing all over the record to me that's not this is not that kind of record like there's so many different elements to go into making a great that I feel like if I say that playing is 10 then what is everything else if I think something is more important man you're looking to me with those I'm so glad I wore these glasses today so I can look over them at you is that not

valid what I'm saying it's totally valid it's totally valid but I just what do you got I got a 10 oh I got 10 I think it's I think the playing so you're saying that all of the playing that's my other thing. Like, if you were to say, to rate Winton Kelly's solo that we just heard on Freddie Freeloder, that's a 10 out of 10 to me. Yeah. Right. And train solo. And Miles is a solo. Are great. But I've been nine maybe, I'll say Miles maybe nine just because there is that one superfluous chorus. Now, were they waiting for train to come in? Was there something? I don't know. So maybe, but I'm saying like, there is one extra course. But overall, Flamenco sketches. But Winton Kelly's is perfect. Like those choruses, like there's nothing extra.

There's a 10 is perfect. Ten has to mean perfect. Ten has to mean perfect. Okay. I think this is the first one we haven't done 10 on playing for both of us. So that's interesting. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Next, we want to talk about vibe. And for vibe, I'm going to bring up this one. I already know what this is. No, you know. No, I mean, I know what the score is. Oh, yeah. Good. Good.

Think like me. Not really. But do. This is the opening track. Of course. So what? What a gutsy, ballsy way to start a record to start a five, seven-time platinum record. Well, it reminds me the first time I listened to this, and it started with that just bass piano intro.

And I was like, this is the record. Everybody says it's so good. It's so weird. But then as soon as this comes in, I know. I was like, oh, this is that up. This is good. So this was the start, Peter, of not the start, but this was certainly the biggest modal jazz record of its time. And a brief explanation of modal jazz.

So a lot of music that was leading up to this had a lot of tonal harmony, dominant tonic progressions. I mean, this is Great American Songbook, Standards, Jazz Standards. Bill Evans and Miles Davis started to play around with this idea of, and other people, lots of other folks, minimal harmony. So here, So What, has literally two chords, a D minor chord, a Dorian mode. It's A-A-A-B-A, so there's D-Miner for an A, D-Miner for an A, D-Miner for an A. and then E flat minor for an A. Yeah. And back to D-Miner.

That is what, to me, makes this vibe a 10 out of 10. There's our E-flat minor. And if you're learning improvisation, you might think, oh, cool, like less chords must be easier. Right. No, my friends, it is actually super difficult to make great-sounding ideas happen on just one chord. It's really hard.

That's interesting. So your main reason, I'm going 10 out of 10, for vibe too. But your main reason is because of this simple minimalist modality. No, it's a combination of everything. Yeah. So it's the sound, it's the groove that's being laid down. I think the kind of tunes, the modal tunes. They lend themselves to some exposure.

And not all these are modal tunes. Honestly, it's just this in flamenco sketches. You can argue that blues are kind of inherently modal. They approach a little bit more that with the Lydian dominant. emphasis that everybody did. But blue and green has functional 5-1 cadences all over the price.

This form, this D-Miner, B-flat minor, A-A-B-A form is also used, by the way, in John Coltrane's impressions and other famous. Oh. That's so good,

that line right there, that last line. All these, like, and the rhythm section. This line here. The negative end, third. Oh.

Also, shout out to Bill Evans comping on this whole track. Unbelievable. I mean, the rhythm section comping just the bass and drums but then pianists that almost would push it up to a tendon

this is some of the best comping laying the foundation it's amazing yeah and like I can't think of other popular examples of piano comping like this before this on one chord doing the things Bill's doing here he's like playing like

it's like Debussy yeah that he's improvising this might be the most, just constant stank-faced kind of solo ever. Trane. I can train a ten out of ten. The playing is a nine, obviously from Peter Martin. Train ten on ten.

There's one too, man. This has some iconic bits of language in it. Yeah. Good, man. So much beauty in that. So much solo in that. A little train influence on Canterball with the phrasing. And the other way, too.

Panibal knew his jazz arpeggios. Swinging. And now, the most bespoke phrase ever. Minor 11 arpeggia punch? Man, there's a lot of personality on. But you're true core. Like, you know Cannonball's personality for this. You know trains personality.

You know my... Maybe it's bullshit. I don't think so long. You feel like you know them. Bill Evans? What I'm getting out of this Cannibal solo. He's obviously thinking a lot of G7. Yeah.

There's a lot of G7 language. Right. Look at Solo, too. Bill Solo here. Letting the hits happen. Ah. Atmosphere. Five.

Ten. All their, there's slightly different approaches to the modality of this. It's so hip, you know. Oh. Flustria. Waterfalls. Woo.

Do you hear that dinkle? It's just little, like chopsticks. Let's just let it stroll for a second. Yeah. I don't think they were like, you take four cars. Then I take three. I'm telling you, man, his lines, the intensity of the beat never. Jimmy Cobby, he was just like, I got you.

I got you. And by the way, they hadn't been like... Tempo. Damn. Another thing with the, we'll get into this with the Lord. They hadn't been like touring with this album. No. For six months before they recorded.

They hadn't played any of this. They hadn't seen any of this. Very little rehearsal, if any. This is no knock on PC, but you can hear that when he goes, that's a hard line. Yeah. When he goes up to, I mean, everybody, bass player can play because they shed on it so much. Yeah. You know, like, that's not perfect, but the vibe is perfect.

I give it 10. 10 for the 5. Oh, the way this ends, I know they hadn't planned out how they're going to end it. I don't think. Oh, it faded out. Yeah.

Oh, I forgot about that. Was that a later mix? We're going to talk about that on lore. Yeah. A lot of mix-ups on the mixes over this over the years. Okay, that's awesome. That's a 10. Five is a 10.

But the whole record is, and this is my thing, Adam. Now I'm kind of, I've got another justification for going 9 on playing. This record is so great, but to me, the vibe is the biggest thing. Remember, I was just like the visceral thing, just the vibe that it has. It's not like, oh my God, they're wiping it up on those changes or they're playing that Dorian like an MF or whatever. The vibe is the greatest thing about this record. Yeah. And so that's why

like how can everything be, if everything's a 10, nothing's a 10. But is the vibe? What is it? It's how they smell. Is it how they look? It feels. No, no, but it's how they sound. Yeah, but even like on Cannibal solo, even when they go to beat up, like that time when Jimmy Cobb's like, but like right at the right time, like what they don't play is almost as important as what they play to get the vibe. Sounds like masterful 10 out of 10 playing to me.

To create. No, it's very, it's a level playing to get to a, a, a minus level. Tennis, I'm just kidding.

We're parsing it. We are really, and as you can see, I'm trying to backfill because the other thing is like, you said train 10 out of 10. And now that I'm like PC. And then Miles got his head out of 10.

PC and Jimmy Cobb are 10. 10. playing wine i mean i'm just saying when kelly i can't get him a 10 out of 10 because you only played it on 1 2 well and bill evans didn't play on 1 2nd at all so he doesn't get it 10 on it uh okay our next we're gonna argue about this is gonna be a tough one yeah uh compositions i have so let's listen to this one this is a good one i think for compositions this is blue and green one of the greatest uh jazz standards ever still played a jam sessions yeah we still play it together all the time it's great great arrangement too here

Yeah. That's a vibe. That's a vibe. Okay, PC gets 10 out of 10. And Miles. Miles is a little pitchy at places, though. Let's be honest. Oh, interesting. Which gives it a great vibe. Oh, my God.

Well, the harmony makes it a little sharp. You hear that? So the changes here are just brilliant. It's like a G-sus kind of situation to an A. A. Yeah, sorry, G minor, G-minor 13. So with the 9 and the 11 and the 13. D minor.

C minor. Right where they are now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then B flat major is sharp 11. They almost always play the sharp 11 on that. A alter. Back to D minor. You consider this kind of in D minor.

A and E7 with the flat 13. 11 to A minor. So G minor, 13. Yeah, I do too. And now we're in. Now we're going twice as fast. Twice as fast. Same.

B flat. A7. D minor. E7. A minor. Raise your hand if no one has, if you've not noticed that before, that it goes twice as fast. A lot of people don't do that. Really?

Yeah, when they play it. Because they're reading out of the damn fake book. Maybe. Get your head out. Get your head into the clouds. Also, but the changes itself where the landmarks are, where they land. Yeah. It all is very like, it's nebulous.

It's nebulous. So you are like, wait, are they? they going twice as fast? Right. It's not supposed to be like a, I don't think, a pronounce thing. That would kill the vibe. Now they're... This is someone the world.

Most beautiful play. Get out of here with that. So good. It's too good. Crazy. That's 10 out of 10. That's 11 out of 10. It's so different than the way he played on the rest of the record.

Wow. The humanity and the soul of that is... They would die with it on this side. How do you just get to that place as a person? So now it's triple times. Yeah. And they actually go to double time and the meter,

the changes are going by three times, right? And notice it's Bill's solo both times. Yeah, we're doing this. Yeah, so feel flexible form, you know what I mean? And even the way they're moving through it. It's good, it's nice too. But that train course

maybe one of the greatest courses ever played. And they're a little off, but they, you know, oh, man, the human element of this, this is not a perfectly executed, record, but I would say it's a damn near a perfect record. I'm telling you,

are you changing it? Don't change it because I'm pressuring me, buddy. Well, no, I'm hearing a lot of great plank. Oh, really? Shocker. On Kind of Blue, you're hearing a lot of good a good music playing? They're playing good music on Kind of Blue. I didn't want to be a character of myself, but

I stand by. Compositions, though, what do you think? The way this ends. I'm going nine on compositions. I'm going eight. I know, I know. Interesting. I know. Yeah, I agree.

In my heart of hearts, I do think it's in aid on compositions. Which compositions do you hate on here? I don't hate any of them. No, they're all really obviously. Which do you feel is not an A? I don't, but I don't. I don't. Obviously like so, okay, so what and the modal thing and flamenco sketches is great.

And this tune, of course, I think is the, I think this is the best composition on the album. Because I love these, I love playing over these changes. I think the melody's gorgeous, using a 13 and everything. However, yeah, it's not a 10 out of 10 for compositions for me. I think what carries it is more the playing in the vibe than the compositions. I agree. I mean, I have a 9, which I feel like is for such a great record is. Like, and if you consider some of this kind of playing part of the composition,

the intro to so what, is that part of the composition? You know what I mean? It's good. It's great. But yeah, but when I say like my list of the 10 greatest, jazz standards. I don't know that any of these would be on there. Yeah, blue and green would be for me and probably all blues, honestly. They're great, but I think, you know what it is? It's like, they're not great outside of, they're not a 10 out of 10 outside of their hands on this record

date. Exactly. Like, have you ever played so what on a session or a gig and been like, oh my God? It's sad a yes. And that doesn't mean it's not a great composition. It's just so particular to this record and this vibe and that's the whole thing. So there's no shame in us counting that down. Have you ever played so? You did a little more than me, though. Have you ever played it like, it's challenging to me to play and make sound good?

Because, first of all... Because you're not John Coltrane. I'm not John Coltrue, no, but here's the problem with, actually with most of the tunes on this album when you try to perform them, including... Actually, you kill flamenco sketches. You crush flamenco sketches. I wouldn't touch flamenco sketches,

because I'm not you, but I'm also... I, with this album in particular, and I think a little bit, like, if... it's like playing... Point Ciena or every time I play, but not for me. I just play things from this album. I try to match the vibe. I do, you know what I mean?

It's so hard not to because it's so iconic. It's so ingrained in our heads is like what it should sound like. That it's hard to get out of that and make your own thing out of it. I just avoid calling these tunes, honestly, except for blue and green. But I mean, to me, flamenco sketches, and that's another reason I'd come down nine. You might even be closer on eight. Flamenco sketches, is it an amazing composition? No, it's a couple chords.

Because it doesn't have a melody. That's a great idea. I mean, it's probably the greatest composition without a melody. It's a great vehicle. It's a conduit, possibly for something wonderful to happen. That's exactly right. The whole album is like, like Miles built a framework.

Yes. That these amazing musicians could play in. They're just kind of like rooms to go in languish in. Like sandboxes. Yeah. These are little sandboxes. And maybe there's a 10 out of 10 because the sandboxes are amazing. And they give the players the room to do their thing.

This is challenging. This is harder than I thought. If we were to do like a Mingis album, like compositions 10. a tent. Like the thought and the the art behind that is so incredible. Because like that's a great example. So if you take Mingus's music and like I played

songs in the key of life that we did last week. Right. If you take that music and really learn it and put it in the hands of great musicians, it doesn't have to be John Coltrane and Cannibal Adderley and Bill Evans. Yeah, yeah. That it'll be be. That's amazing. That's a great composition. Whereas these, when you take them out of the hands and just put them into a jam session.

It's okay. Even if you really execute it on it. It's just I. It's never going to be. It needs the vibe. It needs the sound. the aura, the lore. But if you take Stevie Wonder's as, is you just going to sound good? If you're grooving on it, you're executing the changes and stuff.

Yeah. All right. Okay, next up we have sound. Now, this is going to be controversial. Look at it. I'm putting my pen down. I just put something. I love the way this record sounds.

He slammed the pen down, but I see what your score is. And how is that controversial? This is, okay, so I have 10 out of 10. I have 10 out of 10, too. I mean, this is well known. It sounds great. It sounds great because of the playing or because it's obviously recorded impeccably.

Dude, it's one of the greatest sounding albums in recorded music history. Right, but there's so many different mixes. There's been like allegations that it was pitch strong from the beginning. And the original three track tape is lost and stuff. Wow. It's been remixed and remastered. So it's like when we say sound, yeah, to me, but to an audio file, they're going to be like, well, which version? Are you on the original vinyl, mono or stereo mix?

Do they have separate mixes? There was a mono and a stereo mix? Caleb, is that true? Do you know anything? Dude, why? He's that. Caleb's more of an audiophile. Caleb was born at a time when mono was just but a nothing.

Caleb, what do you know about mono? Most the original tracks last time were mono. But this was still during that period where they were releasing both versions because not everybody had a stereo turntable. But listen to this. I know it sounds great. Come on. I give a piano on this, too.

By the way, good sounding piano from the get-in-law. Yeah. Although I think the drums and the trumpet are the best. I mean, the sax is 100%. Trumpets are hard. I actually think the drums, this is the best recorded drum sound ever. This might be, to that point, this might be the best recording of drums and trumpet in the history of recorded. And in fact, if the drums weren't so well recorded and played, obviously, I would put the sound in nine.

Like, it's so good that pushes everything. Because everything else is good. But, I mean, that's what I said. It's controversial, man. Throw my keys. It's that symbol. Now, I mean,

incredible instrument, too. The bass sounds incredible, too, though. And the player, I mean, who. So all blues, of course, is another blues.

It's in three. It's in G. It's another tune that doesn't always work great. It's not free. And you can't play it on Highway PeeP. I'll get a little more Highway Pee-P love this episode. That's good. this episode goes longer

I'm gonna revisit that I want you to be honest here Peter do you ever listen to this album anymore do you ever for your own enjoyment yeah well my wife puts this on in the crib see this what I'm saying my wife also puts this on in the crib and I listen to my dad put it on

do you ever put it on just you in the car you're on a road trip you put on kind of blue ever do you ever put this on in your own earbuds in your own not in a car but I'll put it on the vinyl sometimes myself at home

yeah because this is a record that I love to like hold It's a certain vibe that he gives me in a connection with a number of things that I think just are important. It's like the opposite of a snobby record, but there's so much

snobbiness within us foreshadowing to number nine. I'm saying like it's a very like, I love stuff I mean songs of the key of life is like that to me too in that wildly popular but wildly inside at the same time in a lot of ways. Man, I'll be honest.

I don't think I've played this for my enjoyment in at least 10, maybe 15 years. So you hate this record. No, I love this record. As my score will reflect, I love this record. However, I assume that I'm going to hear it multiple times a year. That's true. Not in my own volition.

So I just save it for those times when it's on at a club somewhere. Right. And you're chilling after the gig and this is on. Yeah, yeah. And you're just like, oh, damn, that train soul is so good. You know, like, that's, that's, or you're, like, the sound engineers playing it before the gig, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, I hear it.

I'll hear it 10 times in a year without playing a lot. It's like a cultural monument. It's like a statute to jazz, you know. Fun fact about this, though, talking about, like, I think I've bought, purchased this probably 30 or 40 times in my life. I've bought this CD so many times, an LP a couple of times. Double digits. I've purchased copies of this.

I've got them as gifts. On different, on vinyl, on CD, multiple times on CD, probably four or five CDs. I'm going to buy it right now. It always gets broken or gets soda spilled on it back in the the day, crystal clear Pepsi. I've purchased it. It was one of the first albums I bought when I got my first iPod. You know what I mean?

Right. Get an iPod. You get Sardier Peppers. You get kind of blue. Right. Love Supreme. I was going to say, like, you know, for a long time, you could get it for like five bucks or six bucks on Amazon.

I would just be like, buy now. Just to buy it. Yeah, because it's like with shipping. And I was about to do that. But look which version. Oh, good. We'll get to that in a second. That's the wrong cover.

I'm not going to buy that version. Format audio. Some jackleg version of the cover. Yeah, that's not cool. That's not cool. We're just miles, but that ain't kind of blue. Okay, so sound is obviously a 10. Yeah.

Track sequence here. So we've been going out of order, but we do have a sequence starting with So Wet. I think it's a perfect sequence. So What, Freddie Freeloader, Blue and Green, All Blue, and Flamenco sketches. It kind of does this sort of like, you know slow fast slow fast thing really well

and it's perfect that's why I like it on LP too because when you turn it over and you start with this um this is the beginning of the second second side all blues yeah right yeah the only thing i'm giving a 10 out 10 for sequence the only reason i would take it down and i don't think we can penalize for this is like that i guess was 86 or 87 the masterworks version whenever it first came out on the CD or maybe it was even a later one when they put the alternate take to flamenco sketches, to me that kills it. I hate, I can't say I hate that. I'm a lover, not a fighter. No, no, no. But you know what I'm saying? Like, that screws it. The 90s alternate take craze. Yeah. I'm so glad it's over with because it is tired. And if I have to listen to multiple,

I'm listening to an album. I want to hear the album. Right. I don't want to hear all the, like, maybe put them in the very back or something. I don't know. But even that, I'm just like, I don't, that screws up the sequencing of it sometimes. Or if you put it right after. But yeah, the LP thing to me, it's 10 on 10. And I mean, Flamico's sketch. It's very interesting. I like hearing that into like, but not as part of the artistic things. I believe that one was the only, Flamenca was the only one that they did, well, we're going to talk about this in the lore.

But that was the only one they did more than one complete take. So I understand why you want to get that out there and to hear it. And it's a great version. I know why they, it was probably the first, the first take, the first take is the one, you know. But yeah, I mean, could it be any more perfect on here? No, I don't think you could. You ever, this is a very

romantic album. You ever use this in times of romance or like when you're on a date with you know what I mean? This is also a go-to, sequence-wise. Let's move on. You know what I mean? Yeah, you know what? It's like a perfect hang record, too.

It is. It is. I'm guilty. If you know what I've done with... A chill hang with some friends or with a significant other. You know what's great? Yeah, and Kelly Martin loves this record. But I was definitely guilty of this because I heard it early on and kind of knew some of the tune. You know, we learned these tunes or whatever, using it in a potentially romantic situation.

and this is what a Don Juan I was, it would be like, oh, hear that it's a Dorian scale he's play. Peter Martin, why would you? I killed the vibe. That's a vibe killer.

I mean, I was so... It starts to work for a minute and then it leads to spending the rest of the evening by yourself. Hey, babe, let me explain modal jazz to you for a second. Come closer. Oh, do you hear how they triple time that? But then for some reason...

It's like this podcast. No, no. This is not... Do not use this podcast in any romantic situations. When I did that, it didn't work with a certain young lady first. For some reason, I just, I tried it again with another young lady. And I was like, my error was not that I brought up the question.

It said I wasn't like, I wasn't like passionate enough about the theory. And so I tried that. Didn't work either. What a nerd. I love it, man. We've all done it. Oh, what I did. Because it's an opportunity to flex a little bit of our knowledge. Because this is one of the few records.

Yeah. Someone who just doesn't care. Who doesn't care. And this is funny. Because why would you ruin one of the few jazz records that's sort of universally loved? And it's got a romantic vibe too. Just shut up and let Miles do to work for you. Miles is so much better at this thing.

No, where I learned later. 20 years later. They love us despite this stuff, which is incredible. They love us because they ain't us. No, they hate us because they ain't us. Okay, so sequence, I have a 10, obviously. Yeah. Cover art.

I have a, this is my lowest rating of the whole album. I have a 7. Yeah. Well, that's a 3. That's a 3? That's a three? That's a one. I don't know, Caleb, if you have the cover for this, but we can certainly put that up in the edit,

but like the cover, even the original Columbia cover on the vinyl is good, not great. Like, it's fine. Do you have it up, Peter? Yeah, it's okay. But we'll put it up there. But, man, it's good.

Like, I like the little blue tent on Miles and it's a cool picture of him. I think it's okay. I don't think it's... What did you do? I did a seven. I'm going eight on it because I think... He's had better covers.

Like, he's had 10 out of 10. So it's definitely not a 10. And to me it's not in nine, but it's iconic. It's, it's fine. There's some things that I'm looking at. There's some stuff with the balance and the fonts and stuff that's really cool. Yeah. And, yeah, so I feel like eight.

I mean, seven, either one. Yep. Like, if you're going to do a portrait cover, like milestones, him on that stool holding the trunk, that's incredible. Right. And some of the photos from, can we throw up? Can I press? Nefertiti is a better portrait cover. Can you put my computer screen up there, Caleb?

Because I want to show this. So this picture, which I think is from the session, to me, that's a, 10 out of 10 in terms of jazz photography. With the mic stands, with Miles, with Bill, I mean, their expressions. And when you know this record and, you know, this is, I don't like it when they do the colorization. That's stupid.

Especially when you don't colorize PC, except for his hands. That's weird. But there's some cool stuff from the session, right? Oh, PC there. I mean, look at his left hand position. That's what he sounds, though. They got ties on at the session. They only paid him like $100 for the session.

Cannibal's got those high-wasted slacks. Oh, my God. And his button up. short sleeve, it's, it's incredible. Okay, so cover out of a seven, you have what do you have? Eight. Title, the title of the album, Kind of Blue, I have a 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10.

It's incredible. It's so incredible. It's so incredible. It describes the vibe, yet it's esoteric, yet it's romantic, but it's kind of like. Blue. Yeah, it's bluesy, which there's two blues on it, but it's not blues. It's not kind of blues. There's so many stale things that could have been.

And I always give extra points to titles that aren't like from like the title names of the tunes are really cool and easily could have been blue and green. Yeah, blue and green or all blues or flamenco scale or whatever. But kind of blue. It connects with the music, connects with the vibe, connects with the vibe and everything. It's amazing. It couldn't be any better. It's amazing. 10.

The lore, I have on the lore, I have a solid eight. Okay. Because I do know, I mean, just the lore of the album in general, how iconic it's become. And it is an icon for jazz. Like the album itself is its own industry in and of itself. And then the fact that, you know, Miles is bringing these tunes to the band. Really, they didn't have much rehearsal on it. I get all that.

But there's not, to me, there's not much more than that. There's not like some killer story with it. There's some good stories with it, though. Okay. It was supposed to be Philly. That's good lore. Yeah. And it was supposed to be Wynton Kelly and there was back and forth.

But then I'm also like, is any of that stuff? I did nine. I did nine on it. And I almost did 10 because, but then I was like, is the amount of lower, lower maybe just slightly overblown because the record is so big? Like the fact that they switched up drummers, that wouldn't be that big of a deal, except for the fact that the record became so iconic. So now we start thinking, yeah, it was last minute.

But how many other sessions were like that? You know, that happens all the time. But if we think about if Philly had been on there, it would have been great, but it would have been totally different. Right. But that's only because the record's so big and the vibe was, so it's almost like, I can't imagine it without. I don't know. It's definitely a lot of lore and I almost went 10 with it. Just the thing of like, but the other part, the reason I took off a little bit was some of the lore, I believe is untrue. I would refer people that are into this to Ashley Kahn's excellent. There's a couple of books. Complete books about this record. There's a book on just the sound production of this, isn't it? Yeah. So that would actually make it think like the lore is, I mean, if it can fill up a couple of books. Maybe it's a 10 of one. Yeah. That's why I was also like. I'm still going none. Yeah. But I mean, Ashley Kahn's book is excellent. I read that years ago and I've got that. That's a fun one.

But the idea of, I know he kind of clarifies some of this stuff, some of the lore is untrue, like the fact that it was all first takes. That is not true. There was no, well, everything was a first take, first complete take. But that's very different than first takes, as we know. So they have some false starts and some false starts and some incomplete and some almost complete. And some people say there were some complete. They just didn't, they taped over it or whatever. But Flamenco sketches, of course, there are two full takes that that was really, that were released. And I believe it's the second take. It wasn't labeled as the second take because there was beyond false starts. Like they used to call something a false start. And then if something was a take, even if it was incomplete,

it would be a numbered take. So they did a bunch of playing on this. So part of that lore about they just came in and recorded it. And this was on two sessions, two pretty long sessions over, I believe three or four days. Maybe it was just two days, but I know it was two sessions over a couple of months.

So some of the lore is, that's the reason I took a little bit off to just because like any legendary record, it's sort of. And then there's the whole thing that I think would push the lore up about Tio Massaro, who was his producer later, by getting credit for this,

which he was there at the session, but he didn't produce it. It was Irving Townsend, who was like the staff, Columbia guy, who probably didn't have a whole lot to do with the music, the way that Tio maybe got involved a little bit more on back and forth with Miles. But apparently Tio, I mean,

there's different versions of this, but apparently he was more of it, just kind of like apprentice, almost like a runner type of role at this time. But then when they reissued it, it might have been that same funky cover one. He got listed as the producer for a while and stuff, which he wasn't.

So there's some interesting stories, but they all seem to kind of come out of, they wouldn't be stories unless the record was so big. Right, right, right. But I think the lore of the music and, like, what it did, like, to sort of set the bar is pretty high, you know, for, like, whatever record is. I'm going to go, 10. No, no, no, no. I only did nine.

How am I going to talk you in the going to? I'm going from eight. I'm going to, I'm going to bump it all the way up to 10. Because I think. That's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling that in my heart and in my stomach. Okay, let's do the snobometer, Peter. Now the snobometer.

I'm nervous spot this one. Okay, again, we'll just explain what this is. So it's a scale of one to ten, but there are two parts of this, one to five and one to five. Now, you get five points if your aunt Linda, who's not into jazz, would like the album. And you get five points if a jazz knob,

we've been using the avatar of the great pianist, Ethan Iverson, who obviously has incredible refined taste, would also like it. Got it. What do you got? Nine. I also have nine. I think they would both enjoy it about equally.

Oh, I'm saying I think Linda would give it a five out of five. I mean, if not this record, then what? Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah, this is the one. And I think that the true snob is going to go a little under on this one because this is not an easy record to justify,

again, like not that musically you can't go and geek out on it like we just have been doing, but a true snob is going to be like, oh, that's not Miles' greatest record. Yeah, exactly. It's a sellout record. It's the first, it's not necessarily. It's the first, it's not necessarily.

a first smooth jazz record, hot take. I don't see that as a bad thing. Okay. But also, I almost would say three from a snout. You could do an eight on this, but it's, it's, it's, it's, train kind of pushes it over. That's true. The edge. Yeah.

And Campbell. And, yeah, there's, and, okay. I think we nailed it on nine. Okay. Now, this is another. Now, our final category. Does not compute. Is, is it better than kind of blue.

Now, we've been saying, we've been using this as a score, kind of blue, we say is a nine. So if it's worse than kind of blue, it's, it's, it's eight point of 9 or below. If it's better than Kind of Blue, it's 9.1 or above. So like, you know, we did last week we did Stevie Wonder songs in The Key of Life. I put that as a 10 out of 10. I thought it's better than this album of Kind of Blue. So for me, this has got to be a nine because kind of blue we've been saying is a nine. No? Yeah, but it's not, yeah, okay. It's got it, it's got to either be zero or nine. Zero because it's just, it does not compute. Is it better than, it can't be better then, but it can't be worse than. It is

kind of blue. And we've been saying that kind of blue is a nine. Okay, so we'll go nine. Yeah. It was easy. That was easy. Okay, ding-d-d-d-d-d-d-. Okay. So we added up? I think we should add it up. You ready? Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. All right. Okay. Pencils down. Okay, pencils down. Can I phone a friend?

Why would you need to do that? I don't know. Who you got a call? Pensels down. Is Thomas? Ghostbusters. Okay. Go busters. You go first. You go first. Okay, playing. I gave it a 10, 5. Do we, do we, do you know? Just the overall score of your favorite track. 94.

Okay. Favorite track, Plymanko sketches. Nice. Yeah. I had 93 favorite track, so what? So you're going with an A minus for kind of blue. Interesting. I'm going, you know, this is about a nine.

It's a, it's a nine out of 10. 93 out of 100. It's like a low nine or high nine. I'm just saying. So it checks out. I think, I think our score is here check out. Like, you know, I had 100 out of 100 for songs in the Key of Life, right? Right.

And I do think this is pretty accurate to how I feel in reference to that. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, this, this, I think, reveals or exposes a little bit of fallacy and buffoonery with our scoring system, to be honest. Our scoring system is total bullshit. It doesn't matter. And it's really super subjective. And we had some lovely comments, too, by the way, of people who are like,

I hate that you're scoring albums, but I'm kind of liking the vibe of these episodes. So someone allow it? I mean, it does. But, you know, to me, it's very similar to scoring other things that are both universally loved and totally subjective to how you love them. You know what I mean? That's what's fun to me about is like what pushes, what pulls it. Yeah. But it's kind of blue.

It's kind of blue. Okay. Until next time. You'll hear it.