You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Jazz Pianists Changed Forever After This Album

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

In this episode we FINALLY dive in deep and listen to McCoy Tyner's "The Real McCoy". This iconic album has shaped pianists for decades and its time we broke it down to really see what the hype is about. Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Looking to drop a question? Want to listen to the audio pod? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Adam. What's up, Peter? I've got a great idea for a tune. Okay. I just got to work it out. But I'm thinking, I just take this shape. That's good shape? Yeah, it's like, whatever, like A-E-13.

E-13. With the ninth, and then moving up a whole step, moving down. You know, it's just like that typical kind of shape, moving around kind of thing. You know, B-B-B-D-D-B-D-B-D-B-D-B-Dib-D-B-Dib-D-D-B-D-D-B-D-D-D-B-D-D-B-D-D-B-D-D-B-D-D. . Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter, what? I feel like this has been done before. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcasts.

Music Explored. Explored. Brought you today by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJadioJazz.com for, oh, we're jazz lesson needs. Peter. Yes. Today we are listening to one of both of our favorite albums of all time. A classic.

One of the greatest jazz piano quartet records. I'll explain more on that in a minute ever. Easily. Easily. It's in the top 10, 5, 3, whatever you want. This is as good as it gets. It sounds like a hot take is on its way. We are listening to 1967's The Real McCoy by the Incredible McCoy-Tyner,

huge influence on pretty much every pianist after. It would be way easier to come up with a list of people that aren't, I don't even know if I could do it. Jazz pianists that were not influenced by McCoy-Teners. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, almost impossible jazz pianists who weren't influenced by McCoy. Because even if you were influenced by someone, anybody else, chances are they were influenced by Macquar.

Perhaps John Tesh, not influenced by Macquarie. I don't know. Jury's out on that. Jury's out on that. But I'm excited about this one, man. Again, 1967, there's a little cultural context about what was going on. Oh, laid on me.

1967, the number one movie in America was, You Only Live Twice, which is a James Bond. Sean Connery as James Bond, you only live twice. The number one TV show was the... Sorry, that was weak. And it was really, I could,

was that N64 version? That's Josh, the 1775. The number one TV show is the Andy Griffith show. That's a good show. That was a good show. That's a really good show. Yeah.

The number one, No, that was, what? Opie. Opie Cunningham. Opie Cunningham. Right.

The number one album was Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band by the B. The B. Atles. The Battles. That was a classic right there. The president was Lyndon B. Johnson. But not for long.

Well, he'd be around for a little bit. He was on his way out. That's a little bit of the sort of cultural happenings in 1967. Do you know where LBJ hailed from? Texas. Yes. Yeah. Do you know where the Beatles held from?

Liverpool. Some of them at least. Is that your attempt at a liver puddly an accent? Let me hear yours. I will not. Good. I refuse. Liverpool, Jollygood, old mate.

No? What? Okay. I'm trying out here. Is that Mary Poppins? What's going on? man, Poppins and Lans in Liverpool. No, okay.

Keep going. This is great. Sit back with your oatmeal latte, Mr. Contra. This is better than the show. Peter does British accents. Now do leads. But this is good.

So 19. Leath, no, no, sir. 1967, kind of a tumultuous time. I wasn't around. This is one of those records. Well, most of the records we listened to her before 1970. That's true. But this was at the beginning.

of what we might say a little bit of upheaval. We were into Vietnam War. Very controversial, obviously. And my sister was born this year. Excellent. Not very controversial. Not in my family. This was released in April. But this summer in 1967, the famous summer of love.

Was that 67? A lot of people think it was 69. It was not. It was 67. Oh, that's, I see what you did there. That's funny. That's very funny. Well, that's true. Okay. Yep.

And so what was happening with McCoy around this time? How old is McCoy? McCoy was 28 years old when he recorded this record. It was recorded on April. I was love this, looking this up because I think about, you know, the times I got to the chance to hear McCoy live, which is quite a few times, actually. And I got to meet him and speak with him a little bit. Of course, he just passed away in just a few years ago in 2020, I believe.

And I actually saw him relatively, relatively maybe 2019 or 2018 was the last time I saw him. but I always think of him as this, you know, older gentlemen, not old. I mean, not when I saw him. I mean, he was never old. He was, every time I heard him play, I know he had some health issues at different times, but I guess I was lucky and caught him when he was strong. But to think that he was 28 years old, to answer your original question. That's really great.

On this recording, but a young man. Young recording. But I'm starting to think middle age for some of these great records from the, you know, this is kind of a sweet spot, I would say, if nothing else, not middle age, but for a lot of these records we've been... Late 20s, made 30s is a sweet spot, I think, for a lot of artists. I don't want to say it's downhill after that, but... Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be for sure.

I mean, Elvin is 39 on this album. That's crazy. They're so much old. Everybody else is 20... Is the exact same age. Ron Carter's 29. Joe Henderson's 29. Elvin Jones, 39. I never thought of him as 10 years older.

Yeah, so he's pushing 40 here. I just think it's like, you know, you get in your late 20s, you've had enough time to really develop some mastery and you're sort of out of your... you're maybe more aggressive, young phase, and you're really bumping up into some life issues by that point, usually.

Right. And we can tap into that a little bit on this. I think McCoy is struggling with some spiritual things on this album, which I don't really think of this as like a spiritual album because of sort of the athleticism of passion dance, right? And like how famous it is. And blues on the corner, which is a really fun,

almost childlike head. But some of the contemplation and the Search for Peace Those are very introspective Not just for a 28 year old But for any person who is sort of bumping up Against the bigger questions

And not just for the titles But for the music that's in them And then kind of the placement on this record With five tracks You know obviously it was three and two On the LP But the idea of Actually can we throw up that

Do we have the LP? just look i was like to because we're always looking at like the spotify or thinking about the cd that's kind of fun to see or even do we have the the actual lps like we set them there the idea of like what is the the demarcation between side one and side two you know what i mean that's always that's always interesting because yeah and then just to visualize it like that so we've got two tunes so think about this and we're going to list we're going to start with of course passion dance in a second here but side one two tunes and then contemplation which is a really, it's probably the heaviest,

most emotional, I don't know, it's the heaviest, it's the deepest track in a way. It's a very deep track. And you can really hear. And it's different because it's in three. Those years in Coltrane's band. Yeah, and I was going to say, yeah, it's the longest track by just a little bit.

And so there's quite a juxtaposition just from that first side of the record. And the second side, I understand. This whole record was made in one day, too, like a lot of these records were. And even talking about, you know, is McCoy, middle-aged? in terms of his output and stuff,

or musicians in general, you know, hitting up against that age of 30, I think because, especially back then, they had so much experience. I mean, think about what McCoy had already done

just with the John Coltrane, quartet, of which he was a part of, and then the later iterations of it with bringing different guest artists and stuff. I mean, that was a lot of different music. And then this was his first blue note record, but his seventh album as a leader, but just going back to like five years before

with Inception, which is a fantastic debut record. And they're actually made, maybe a couple of other records that I remember that they floated around independent ones before that. But it's just to say he was recording a lot. I mean, like four or five, you know, and then he's playing on other people's Bluno record. His impulse run is unmatched for a young musician. Which really goes right up to this record.

It goes right up to the, he actually had like a little bit of a break. But that entire, as you said, Inception, Knights of Ballad and Blues, which is unbelievable, The day and tomorrow, the live at Newport, like all of those in that era, early 60s era are just fabulous, fantastic. And then this, like somehow takes it up a notch. And I really think it's due to a couple of things. I think Elvin Jones and McCoy, we already have talked about that so many times on this show about the drummer pianist connection. There's something very special. It's a certain kind of relationship that if the chemistry is,

right, it can make or break a band. We talked about Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Tane Watts. We've talked about McCoy and Elvin. We've talked about Tony and Herbie. And like, because I think both of those... Chickory and Roy, because they both, those instruments in the role of a quartet or quintet are really there for color, for rhythmic propulsion, you know, both of them, I think there is this relationship and this chemistry that can either be the...

there and be good or or kind of not be helpful yeah and i think mccoy and elvin are obviously uh a classic combination absolutely and i do think that um having elvin and ron carter on any recording together is special right and it's really fun to hear like members of john coltrane's quartet with a member of the miles davis quintet and then young joe henderson here uh 60s joe henderson just playing incredibly lyrically and melodically and just everything we love Joe Henderson for, able to really hang on McCoy's very, very underrated compositions, which we'll talk about in our overrated, underrated, overdog, underdog session.

But yeah, I think there's something, there's a real flow to this album that even on the earlier impulse albums, you don't get as much, as great as they are. The playing is great and all that, but there's something happening here that's different. Yep, absolutely. And I think that it being, McCoy's first Blue Note recording session

and then released in the same year, 1967. Like, they used to do it. On the Blue Note record label is super important. Of course, he'd been on Blue Note records as sideman and stuff, but coming out of this impulse period, and there was a little bit of a break. The last record, I believe, or the most recent one that came out

was McCoy plays Duke Ellington, which I think is kind of a sleeper album, and it's a very different kind of a record. I think it's one of the best. I mean, how many plays Duke Ellington were there during this period? later, I think it's one of the best. I think it ranks right up there with Thelonis Monk plays Duke Gallatin. In fact, is an interesting kind of corollary to that record.

I agree. Reference point, which is fun. But I think that the constant that you're getting from the impulse, you're at least most of those records with this record, is the Van Gelder Sound, Van Gelder Studios in New Jersey, which we can talk about a little bit later whether or not that's a plus or minus depends on your vantage point. And to me, depends on the instrument. but it was so associated with nobody any more so than McCoy Tyner in terms of that Van Gelder piano sound,

which as I've mentioned before on here, I'm not a huge fan of, but huge fan of like what it made on this record and the other parts and how it all works together. You can't have everything in life. You can't have everything. But certainly that's like the constant that kind of goes across. This was interesting. It was produced by Alfred Lyon, who was, of course, one of the founders of Blue Note Records, legend himself

was released in November it was recorded on April 21st, 1967, then released in November, which wasn't unusual then, but the stuff was moving along great, and why don't we listen to the first track? How about it? It's a good one, apparently. Jam session standard. It really is.

Seven sus to here and then to this pedal here, this little B-flag, minor, flat, form-up. Very simple about how an interaction the bridge. 67 and now.

Now I sing Nari Sab's 68. What's that? Shikaria, Now I sing Nauai Sops. Is that 68? 69. 69. So definitely some influence, right? You think?

Yeah. Like to a cold train solo. But it's Joe Henderson. When I think about this record and this track, I think about the precision and like this crisp eighth note lines, but it's funny because both McCoy and Joe Henderson and are doing so much swirling. Sort of like, like, swirly cadenzas that are so beautiful. It's like the opposite of that.

But it creates a compress, you know? Yes. Before I saw Joe Anderson, it was always very clear to me, but there's just much rain. Everything surrounding it, of course, like, even the lead-up to the beginning of soul is so, like, culture is, you know, it's like the way Elven and the war would build it up. And the Joe comes in.

And just all love the Elvin' Joe. for just muscle in his way through both these solos, just like creating incredible, incredible, cacophonous sounds, just dropping bombs and leaving you just stanked. You know what I mean? Yeah, and horrible that I stopped at the beginning of his wonderful solo,

but we got a lot to get to. Terrible, terrible. I got to leave people something. But the thing is, the way he's playing, too, it is very cacophonous, it's very busy, but it's regulated somehow in which McCoy could like present this super well-crafted solo. And then, of course, it's even more dense

when by the time it gets to the Joe Henderson soul, and it kind of starts at a peak and then goes even higher. Elvin's playing as much, if not more, than you've got McCoy staying in hot when Joe's solo. But I think that they're, like, you have this, the relative simplicity of like this, you know, this F sort of Suss, dominant kind of framework there. not that they don't leave that a lot.

They do, but you've got that foundation. There's not really a form in the sense beyond a loose like series of eight bars over and over again, but it's open. It's open. They don't go to the bridge. There's no, yeah, there's no determined bars. And I love you can almost get a sense of a pattern that emerges from McCoy, even when he's copping behind Joe Henderson

where he'll like, do like four bars or eight bars completely in and then and do some in stuff. And then like the next sort of like B section. Yes. Like he'll take it super out. Yeah.

And then come back in. And kind of uses that form with different themes kind of over and over again. Yeah. And then he'll do eight bars kind of in the F. Yeah. And then back with that kind of stuff. Right. And it's all kind of leading.

And then a lot of do, dang, ding. Yeah. And they're dropping those bombs on four, even if Elvis is not doing it. And the other thing I thought was a great reminder. It's very like I remember learning this solo and it's like very sing-songy

if you don't nail the time. Yeah. Don't do it like that. Don't do it like that. No, but I mean, if you just read it off the page, that's the way you do, you really got to get that feel. The other thing is like he's very,

like when he, there's that whole section where he's taking it out, but he's sitting right here on these fours. He's like, he's either got some pedal or some, a little bit of sustain, pulsing in and out that gives it a very interesting effect that I think we always think about it. And of course, he does that at times where he's moving, you know, like whole step movement out or chromatically or something. But a lot of times he's in contrast with himself by sitting there, you know, in really interesting ways. They interact with that same form, you know. Yeah, we were just having that conversation with Larry Goldings.

Oh, I dropped the name. Oh. There, drop that. About this and about how important it is to transcribe the left hand of McCoy. If you're learning the right hand stuff, learning the left hand as well will really, you know, teach you a nice theory lesson exactly what you're saying. Sometimes he's going out. The left hand is staying in. Right.

Yes. Sometimes it's going out with him. Oh, that's good. It's great stuff. How about some bangers, Peter? My banger, we've already heard, for a solo, and it was Passion Dance. McCoy's solo on Passion Dance. Is that your number one banger?

That's my number one banger for solo. My banger for a tune. Yes. Is actually blues in the corner. The final track on Side B, as it were. The final track on Side B. What kind of bookends between, this is actually good we're sort of listening to it.

Are you going to play that one? A little bit. Yeah. Oh, I love it with this. I don't know why. I just, can we listen to the beginning of it? So I know people are like, let it play and shut up.

You know what? Go buy the eye. album, suckers. Sorry. Yeah, mom. Whoa. Okay, what's so, there's something that's so, this is the thing, as much as I complain about the Rudy Van Gelder sound, it's like from here on up.

From here down, I like it. It works. This area, I love it. It's that upper. It actually, it works really well on this. I think he's doing some, like, they're playing in thirds or tense or whatever, but there's a little, like, something about the way that Elvin,

we'll listen to it together. but let me see if I can describe this correctly. Like, Elven's like coming in with that lilt. But like Joe and reporter are not playing exactly together. But it's like, oh, it's just got that, like, every two beats. I think it's such a great tune. Kind of as good as it gets, really. Ooh, trills.

It's just a lot of, it's a lot of spirit. It's a lot of vibe. It's a lot of kind of just foot. up in the butt, you know, just very like... What? Sorry? Like, you're kicking somebody... Say that again? Like, you're kicking somebody at your house. Get up out of my house. Get out of our house. You guys aren't feeling that? Oh, closer with Mike, sorry. Like, you're getting, you know, just boom, you're kicking somebody. Yeah. I don't know. It's just got a lot of stank in it.

It's got a lot of vibe. It's got a lot of feel. Confidence, obviously. A lot of musicality, all those different things that kind of come together to make something that could again be boom, boom, boom, yeah. Anything you do with that kind of attitude, look at his face. You know, we are recording this, right? Peter, what are your... Then they got those forest moving, all the same between the thirves and the forest.

And can we just listen to the last, the very, very end of this track? It's one of the all-time... Okay, this album starts with one of the great drum fills and ends with one of the great drum fills. That's so true, dude. I've never thought about that. That's so...

But the timing of it... Elton built at the end. Like, you could never notate this. It's so right, even if it's not correct. It's correct, but not right. There's no. That's great. It's so much fun. That's great. Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, Peter, so that could have been one of your bangers, too. What are your bangor picks for track and for solo? Interesting. So I've got contemplation as my banger, which is kind of weird to say, it's a banger. I just think it's a banger, though. Yeah, it is. I mean, I just think it's an important, like, where it's placed in the record. I mean, it's so beautiful.

Let's just listen to it song. But like coming second, it's such an interesting thing after passion. You know, all that great stuff. And then you come to this. So, you know, this to me is really, when you read the liner notes and you hear McCoy talking about search for peace and passion dance, those are your two banger picks. But really he's thinking about, like, he's bumping up against. his spiritual side.

Yeah. And I think this is a very contemplative. Yeah. Obviously. Hence the name. I mean, this is like... But you know what's great here? He's playing so much piano, too.

I was going to say, like, he's kind of, he's not like, oh, this is contemplation. I'm going to be like... Or do any... Like, he's just, he's kind of being himself, there's a force, but there's that virtuosity. It's that cult train school. It is. creating these waves of light yeah you know very lyrical but then very like i feel like whenever we think about playing things for god or playing things spirituality in mind or any of that stuff yeah we often

think about like ambient music right long long synth pads or whatever yeah but like it's not all it can be Like, it can be, as life is. Yeah. Huge, vast array of color. You can throw on it, you know? And it's a lot of set up for what he knows is coming. He wrote the song. Counter melody in the left hand?

With the bass. Ron Carter? Hello. We used to play this in Willie Aiken's band when I was like 18. I had no idea how to play this. No idea. We didn't have time to contemplate it yet. I didn't even know I should be contemplated.

just how you should be when you're 18-year-old. That A-flat to the G. Solo pick, Peter, what do you got? So for solo, I've got... What did I end up doing? This was a hard one. This could... Okay, search for piece.

So I just want to pick these two partly. I mean, there's five tracks here. And I want to make sure we got through all of them. I think each in their own ways. I mean, there's McCoy. I mean, there's souls from everybody on here. They're interesting. But we're going to jump to Search for Peace to McCoy's solo.

Just real quick. Yeah. This here's McCoy talking about Search for Peace. After writing the melody of Search for Peace, Tyner says, I chose this title because the song has a tranquil feeling, tranquil and personal. It's very difficult to verbalize about music.

The important thing is what the listener himself gets from the act of listening. But insofar as I can verbalize about this piece, it has to do with a man's submission to God, with the giving over of the self to the universe, which is just beautiful. Yeah. And I think search for peace really captures that.

spirit for me anyway this is the end of the very long very beautiful melody oh so gorgeous this a great pick pete search for pieces also by the way the spotify banger on this album somehow it has like 18 times more uh downloads than anything else yeah i think it's got to be like what we talked about a couple weeks ago where spotify put it on a you know smooth jazz rainy night all The playlist. The Spotify gods. Yeah. But I mean,

Joe Solo's incredible. This starts right there. I could have easily picked that. But I think, you know, I remembered as we were prepping for this, like how that solo really influenced me. Yeah. That and then a couple from the John Coltrane ballads records to McCor.

And when I hear that, I was like, wow, a lot. I mean, not that I can play all that stuff, but I cop some of this stuff, and this day some of that stuff is in my ballad playing, like his approach. What I hear in your approach is that similar sort of like free-feet of like these cascading lines that aren't in time,

but are like, you have, obviously are like sculpting and a phrase that has a beginning and an end and is going somewhere, but it's not necessarily like, Babu-da-d-d-du-d-d-da-bo-d-da-da-da. It's not like that. It's more like, yeah, yeah, man da-da-da-da-da.

Yeah. It's like out of this free, out-of-time ballad playing that you're just a master of, and obviously McCoy, a master of, you know, steal from the best if you're going to steal. Yeah, yeah. And I think if anything, I mean, I was, this was pretty early on in my development. I heard this, like way before I could really hear all this stuff,

but if nothing else, it gave me license for that kind of approach, which later on I started to be able to put together. Yep. And sometimes that's so you need to be like, oh, that's possible. It's not like, oh, I can play like that. It's just like, wow, that's an option. That's an option, exactly. And I think whatever, like what we all get is that for sure.

but I always love McCoy's ballad playing, and I felt like he was a little bit underrated. And I don't know. One thing I just have to say that, let's just listen real quick. And I don't mean to complain, but this drum sound is so great. This is probably the, I mean, as Van Gelder often did with Elvin,

like the snare drum sound with the brushes. Well, as he gets, like as clear and present as that is the hi-hat. It's like the piano is so squashed compared to the drums to me. especially in that upper register. Listen to drums. The drums are, you know.

And actually, I think the drums are perfect. I mean, I couldn't, like, I feel like I'm there with Elvin, you know. But McCoy, I just feel like, like, he's at another place or something, you know. It's the Van Gelder piano. The Van Gelder Piano. But down here and stuff, it sounds great. So, shout out. Let's do some over underdog.

All right. What you got? Underrated. Yes. McCoy Tyner's compositions. Absolutely. five original compositions. Each one of them is absolutely brilliant.

I've played. I think I've played every single one of them at some point in my career. Certainly, Passion Dance is a jam session standard. I mentioned I played Contemplation in Willie Aiken's band for a while. I don't know if four by five might be one I haven't. I've played it. It is hard.

I think I have played it actually. The only reason it's not a jam session, too, is it's hard. It's not hard for pianists in terms of like, because it's a very familiar shape, but to improvise it. Yeah. over E7, you know. Search for a piece I've definitely played.

Yep. And blues on the corner is a classic. Classic. Classic. People messed it up on James. His compositions, I think this might be his best collection of compositions. And I think he's underrated. I think people talk a lot about a lot of other composers from this era,

but not many people talk about McCoy's originals, but they're really, really good. They're really, I put them right there with Herbies, who's obviously known as a master composer from the same era, and even a few years before, on Blue Note and specific. But to me, like, when you, it's fair to kind of compare apples and apples when you talk about great blue note quartet or quintet records from this era, 1960 to 69 or whatever. And the, yeah, absolutely, because the tunes are great. They stand the test of time, obviously, but they also fit together, kind of like Wayne Short or, you know,

like, speak no evil. Like, those are all great tunes, juju. Yep. But they also fit together. They're executed. It's like, it's the whole package. But notice how much more we talk about Wayne. shorter and his tunes than we do about McCoy Tyner. I think it's interesting.

Another underrated, 37-minute albums. You know I love a tight album. That's right. I love a tight set. Shout out to the 90s for not doing that. I love a 70-minute set. You know what I'm saying? I love a-home for Johnny Carson. 40-minute album? You kidding me? Say what you got to say. That's right. 37 minutes, five tunes. That ain't bad because that's there's no like the tunes move, they've got space, they've got length, they've got width, they got breath. This is not like you're rushing through anything. Because it's a 37-minute record with 11 tunes, and nobody wants that. I love a 90-minute movie, you know?

I love a 78-minute movie sometimes. I don't always love a three-hour movie. I mean, you know. Shout out Scorsesey. Hey, I love Barry Lyndon, but it could have been two hours. I still can't get through the Irishman because of that. Isn't that like four hours? I don't know.

I can't get through it. I mean, it's great. Of course. Scorsese is amazing, but, you know. I got an overrated for it. I don't mean, well, let me give you an underrated first because that's more positive. Okay. Ron Carter and Elvin Jones as a rhythm section.

Yeah, underutilized. Underutilized and underrated just in terms of because... Incredible hookup. Incredible. Yeah. Obviously. I mean, they're two of the greatest ever. Right.

And maybe that even speaks more to like Ron... Well, no, and Elvin being able to like fit into with any other great bassist drummer. But, you know, such a, you know, Ron Carter, Tony Williams and then Elvin Jones, of course, Jamie Garrison or Reggie Workman or some other. But it's like you start to associate their greatest work. But this is some of their greatest work, too, right? I mean, I can find other great records, but they're not... Not like Elvin and Ron aren't killing it on here and hooked up and locked in and all that. Overrated.

Rudy Van Gelder remastered editions. Yes. Why you got to remaster? I know. For CD, I guess. Well, the piano sound needs to be remixed, actually. He's not making it. He's not remitored.

Apex Mountain. Is this McCoy Tyner's greatest album? I would put it as a tie with several others. I don't think there's any album greater than this. So there's no great album. There's no greatest. They're all great. If everything's great.

They're all the greatest. I mean, yes, they're all great. Well, let me think. What's not a, well, it's interesting because he was on Blueno and then he, like, was on milestones later, which was some great records in the 70s and early 80s. And then he was back on Blunit that made some great records that people don't talk about a lot. There was one live at Merkin Hall, a solo piano record.

Yeah, yeah. That I can't say this was greater than that. Maybe, though. Is, yes, we can say this is the greatest album. Because you're not going to be happy if I don't say that. But is this the greatest album that he's on period. So is this? No.

A better feature for him than Crescent or Love Supreme. Well, I mean, in that it's better feature, it's all his compositions. But is Crescent one of the greatest Apex Mountain records of all time? Yes, and is he on that. I think it's a better album than this, but I think this is his best album. I couldn't argue with it. I wouldn't argue. I just don't think if it's an Apex album of McCoy Tiner's, there's other peaks very close by, is all I'm saying.

It's not like a clear, you know, one. one-hit wonder situation. The John Coltrane's Theft Award who steals this album? I'm going to say Elvin. Can Elvin Joel really steal an album, though? He's on this one, man.

He's really playing incredible drums. Yeah, but that's like de rigour. What? De rigour. Excuse you. Yeah, that's... You know what I felt these French phrases around?

You need to get to Wikipedia. You need to get to Frankopedia, okay, to explain these. I won't do it. What do you mean by that, though? I'm not saying that you're wrong. Just refresh me out, like theft. Like, he has.

outplayed everybody, he overplayed. He, no, he, he stole the album. He like, this is like an Elvin Jones highlight album. Like, he's crushing. He is the best player on this album. But what did we say on Love Supreme? Do we have this rating system then? We didn't yet.

Who would have, would have been the theftable? I think McCoy would have been in the conversation, too. Okay. Okay. But Train won that album, so it doesn't matter. And McGoy probably won this album as well, but if you got to give it to anybody, I think, Elvin. Yeah.

The Oscar Peterson overplayed. award, who you got? Well, I think it's McCorrie Tyner. Yeah. You know, and again, with all love with this, for overplaying, it's just like number of notes, although Elvin would be close. And for a bass player, for this kind of music, Ron, you know. He's in the mix.

Look, we're hitting some really high-level albums with some high-level musicians, so the overplaying is more about, like, can you do it not in the style of Oscar Peterson, but with the grace and elegance of Oscar, and certainly McCoy does. First call subs for the piano chair. I mean, Chick basically made He made the same record. His own version of passion dance with now he sings, now he sobs.

You gotta think, Chick, Herbie could be in the mix to sub for McCoy on this, obviously. And that may be it. That's probably it. At least from that air. I mean, I'm sure there's others that you could talk about, but yeah.

Tanner, obviously, train. That would change things a little bit, wouldn't it? And I think Wayne shorter would have been an interesting, interesting sub for Joe Henderson. I think Wayne would have been a better sub if you're trying to keep this sound, this record together. Train in 1967 coming into this session.

Wouldn't work. As a last minute sub for Joe Henderson. I mean, it's more of a wild card. It may be the most incredible thing ever. At this point, Train was, I mean, this was the last year of his life. He was really, he was really... Yeah, he was really playing some out there. Music, I don't think he would have done it.

And if he would have, I think it would have been a whole different album. Base? Jimmy Garrison. That's the association with Elvin Jones. Put Reggie Workman in the mix as well? For sure. For sure. Yeah.

Drums, I think Tony Williams. That would be very different. Roy Haynes. Roy Haynes, absolutely. Roy Haynes might even be. And then if you're going to go modern, I'd say Greg Hutchinson, who we seem to mention every week. We have to.

We know it's obligatory. Hutch is the official first call sub for everything. Yeah. Or Brian Blake. I could see, no? Okay. Hutch, though. Okay, got you.

I mean, Blade sounds awesome on anything, but. Tane, yeah. Tane, yeah. would be a better, a better, like, sub for what's going on here. He was about a baby then, if even born. A blade would be interesting, but I think Tane would be interesting here, too. What would you call, you know, this next segment? This is, oh, yeah, bespoke genre.

What do you have for this? For bespoke genre? Of this record, yeah. The real shit. Okay, that's, that's not a bespoke genre. That's just your reaction. That's just you trying to be hip, would put on your beanie. That would be the, or how about angular swing?

That's good. It's not bad. Because of, like, Elman. Cordial cordial cordial. jazz. I like cortal. Cortle. Coralroid jazz?

Cortal. Cortal. Cordalroid jazz. That's what it is. What is that? Like corduroids, but also like cordal. Roid. Don't like that.

Muscular. Yeah. Coralroid jazz. Oh, like steroids. Like steroids. So fourth steroids jazz. Got it. I've got blue note fortet swang.

I feel like this is very much, I think, a blue note. Blue note fortet swang. It's got a certain... It's a sub-genre. It's a bespoke genre. You got to be on Blue Note. There's got to be four of you, and it's got a swing. Let's talk about the cover.

Cover's dope. I love this cover. Can we look at the cover? And maybe we'll even flip over to the... Okay, I love the purport. I love the white space, obviously. The white space is awesome. The Real McCoy font.

Is that the Brady Bunch font, perhaps? It's a very late 60s kind of font and spacing. I love how the the the is vertical. Oh, it's... The colors of that. The colors of the photo. Yeah, the sort of orange and brown, that late 60s, early 70s,

orange and brown. The font from the Bradyunch? From the Real McCoy. Oh, really? Caleb is obsessed with this. Beverly Hillbilly. It's his favorite show. It's his favorite show.

He didn't have a mic, so you can't hear what he's saying. Which is weird because he was born in like 92. You know what I love about this too is the, and Bluenot does a great job. with this. Impulsed, actually a bunch of Riverside in their own way. Stereo, the record number, and then the Blue Note

logo. Gorgeous. The way that it's set against the white, which is maybe a little bit of an off white. Great logo of the Blue Note. Oh, it's just great. But then the placement of it, the lining up of it, like this is some high level. Like, if you brought this sucker in as like a design sample to Don Draper himself

and showed it to him, he would approve. He'd be like, get me some Canadian club whisking. Get the hell out of my office. This is perfect. And just a casual studio shot of McCoy with that tinted sort of brownish orange color on the whole photo. It looks great. It looks great. I love this cover. I give this an A. Yeah, for sure.

Hot takes. Peter, what do you got? Hot takes. Well, I alluded to this. I'm still not a fan of the Rudy Van Gelder Piano Sound, but this is probably one of my most, I wouldn't say it's one of the best because it's Rudy Van Gelder piano sound of McCoy.

I mean, it is what it is. But I'd say that this gets, this doesn't get in the way of me enjoying this record for some reason. Like it does some, it almost pushes it to the point of like, man, it's a drag. And I don't love that sound. I'm also always trying to calibrate, like, is it that everything else sounds so good? The drums, especially, Joe, I mean, yeah, maybe a saxophone is easier to record than a

piano, but whatever. Everything sounds great. McCoy's playing. Is it transcending a subpar type of sound on the piano? Maybe, but I think it's just, I don't know, it's more much, it's beyond tolerable to me. I think it's good. It's B-minus or something. And McCoy's playing is off the charts on this

as it often was during that period. So, you know, I don't know if that's a hot take, but I'm not a fan. My hot take? Yeah. It's the best quartet album of the late 60s. Ooh, total. Okay.

Like, full stop. Yeah. I mean, I can't think of one that I like more than this. Yeah. Or have listened to you more. Yeah, maybe. Wayne is in the mix for sure. I couldn't, yeah.

But I think I've listened to this more than any quartet with, like, saxophone piano trio. Yeah. And the band is so, slamming, the compositions are so slamming, the playing is so good. So much piano being played. I can't think of a better one. Yeah, I'd have to agree.

So not hot anymore. Just a warm take. One other thing, okay, I got another hot take. A kick-ass drum's intro is going to kick off. You need a kick-ass drum intro to kick-off the kick-ass album. If you got a kick-ass drummer, a kick-ass drum intro can be very, very handy. Because think about this. Let's just go back and check this out again.

So if they had just started, and Elvin was like literally came in on one. one, it would be a great album. Yeah. But I don't know if we would get into that level. Is it this, this is why it's a hot take. It's such a small thing. Like, would it,

I don't think you would think this is the greatest quartet album of possibly all time or the late 60s without that. And there's some other little details too, but it's like when you meet somebody, how something starts and how something ends, and this album, and I'm sure they didn't plan this, but for whatever reason is bookended by great,

not only a great, it's not just that it's great technically, it's weird. And it's almost like he's going to come out of it at the wrong place. Like, you can't really count exactly what there's, there's so many things on paper that are wrong with it, but it's just so right. No, I mean, it's not perfectly in time.

It's not like, this drum solo is weird. I don't want to be right? Yeah, exactly. No, but you know what I'm saying? Check it out. It's just like he plays, he's not, you know what I'm saying, Caleb, right?

I'll agree with you on the other thing if you got my back on this one. I definitely, yeah, I think it's kind of weird. It's weird, right? But it's executed so well. It's one of those things that's weird, executed well, to me, this gives license to all the other weird stuff.

They're not like totally weird. I mean, and for this... If it was not Elvin, we'd be talking to shade on that drum. I don't know. If it wasn't Elvin, we'd be like, who is that? I want to know. Wait, play it again. Why would we be talking shade? Is it sloppy? No.

Yeah. It's like, it turns at a weird place. It's funny because it sounds sloppy. When you listen to it a few times, it's actually perfectly executed, but it's not perfectly executed what you think it would be executing, you know? So it's like, ma-a. And then, it's like, ma-oh. by the time they come in, it's like,

I love it. I love it. And it just, it's almost better than this perfectly, snap, lappa, snap, bang,

again, don't phrase it like that. It'll be fine. Peter's really on his classical phrase on today. Have you noticed that? Right. Are we still? Stop with the.

Do you like it? Yeah, good. Are we still messing around? Are we still effing with the snobometer? Snobometer. I got a nine out of ten on this one. I think this is up every snob's alley.

Oh, it's good word of every snob's alley. Good. Okay. Oh, like a foot. No, this is really, this is, I think, prime. I mean, this isn't like Cecil Taylor snobbish, but this is pretty, like, you've got to be a fan of the music. You've got to have some context, too, of, like, this isn't someone's first jazz album, probably. This is like, I'm familiar with.

with, you know, Love Supreme. I'm familiar with a lot of Miles Davis. You know what I mean? Like, you know who Ron Carter is. You know who Elevin Jones is. Yeah. Maybe you've heard some Joe Henderson, little record a me,

and then you get to this and you're like, ooh, what's this? You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm, I kind of agree, but I'm going to say seven out of ten on the snobometer for this because I think that snobs, like, insider stuff,

and this is not like the most popular album, but it is very well known. and it's one that, like, if you ask 10 jazz fans, not even like super snobs, just people that know the music and snobs, what's the greatest McCoy-Tiner album? You're going to get six or seven, eight, nine, maybe even ten. It is going to be the most said.

So already snobs, that takes at least a point off. That is true. And then plus, it is kind of a weird record, but it's very subtly weird. So I don't know that a lot of snobs fully, like, snobs like really just told, like a snob would be fine to be like, well, McCoy's good there,

but if he was still with John Coltrane, John Coltrane was doing much more innovative things in 1967. That's true. Ascension is way more snobby than this one would be. That's true. But there is cool snobby stuff, I think, or nerdy stuff, like that intro and then like some of the way that McCoy's, like not shifting his left-hand harmonies when he is with the right. Like there's weird stuff in there that if you know McCoy,

it's not necessarily weird, but it's not like, I don't know. Snobbs also might say that the songs are too, like, accessible. You know what I mean? Two singable. Two singable, but a blues at the end. Yeah, yeah. You know, very, like, beautiful harmony, very... We got to find a real snobby record to listen to.

You know what I mean? Yeah. We haven't had anything that's been, like, full snob. Full snob. But that's what I'm saying. Like, that's why I said seven out of ten. You get some, like... Yeah.

I could even go six out of ten on this. Some Dave Douglas in here. You know what I'm saying? You got some modern. Look, you got snobby just saying it. Um, but pa-papapap. Peter, is this better than kind of blue? Nah.

I'm going to say it is on par with Kind of Blue. Wow. For me. Okay. So I think you might have a slightly better opinion of this record than I. I love this record. I love this album. Interesting.

Yeah. So it's the same level. As Kind of Blue? Got it. For me, I love it. Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

Well, I think we nailed it. We sure did. Yeah. We sure did, guys. Yeah, and we listened to pretty much everything. Yeah. We'll go out on a little bit. The only track, did we listen to 4x5?

In the intro, yeah. Oh, we did. Okay. Well, I think we're good then. Until next time, you'll hear it.