You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Keeping It Mainstream

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Adam and Peter delve into what makes music mainstream and if Jazz will make the cut in today's musical climate. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

A little inside joke for you there, Adam. That's very, uh, that's not mainstream. It's downstream. Third stream, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin.

And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Jazz, explained. Explained. So third stream music, Peter. Yes. I'm not really that big of a fan. I mean, I know it's a. I'm not a fan.

I'm not a third stream. I'm not a fan of third stream. Who's a Gunther Schuller? Was that? Yeah, but you know what? I can't say I'm not a fan. I don't really. I don't know much about it.

I think it's like name me a third stream track I don't really know but I know it was like it's also a particular era of this like this convergence convergence confluence confluence confluence of classical and jazz yeah maybe maybe but I don't know I I mean it's fusion right kind of yeah but it's kind of like fusion and like it's like pan pan classical well I do like the third place do you know about that no that's the coffee shop that was the original Starbucks model. You have home, you have work. Now people work from home, so it's one place. But it was home, work, and then coffee shop. A third place for coffee. Well, it was like if you were unemployed or a consultant, that was your work. So it was more like your first place. Oh, man. I'm remind that there was a really amazing scene. Remember that show 30 Rock? Yes. Tina Farrs. She had this

horrible boyfriend named Dennis. And he was always having, he always had like hairbrained schemes for trying to make money like businesses. Like he sold pagers like in the, you know, 2000. Right. Whatever. He was like, I got a coffee. He's like, I got a coffee vending machine business going. And Liz was like, what are you talking about? Coffee vending machine? He's like, yeah, here's the thing, Liz. Everyone loves coffee, right?

Problem, where do you get it? And Liz Lemon goes, Dennis, you get it everywhere. You literally get it everywhere. He's like, no, you get it in the basement of Kmart, just ask Jerry for the key. And you go down to my vending machine. That's right. Hilarious show. Good stuff.

Yeah, I hope everybody enjoyed that little. Which segues nicely to what we're talking about today. mainstream mainstream well we got a speak stream speak pipe stream stream stream pipe what we got we got a tinkle tinkle tinkle tinkle trickle tinkle trickle tinkle no oh fred come on buddy you know what he reminds the way he's saying that it's kind of like what we just said about third stream we can't we we we we I don't think he can name any jazz that he's not a fan of or that he's a fan of see I I I I'm again I'm gonna just say I bet he is kind of a fan of some jazz well of course but I'm saying the character that he like the whole schick yeah the character the character

I think that's the fun part about jazz is the more you know about it, the more you can make fun of it. You know what I mean? Because there definitely are things that are hilarious and awkward and funny about every genre, really. Right. But you got to be kind of, that's why I think like he knows a little bit about it. Yeah. Because even the track he chose for that little skit was like, oh, yeah. Of course.

You had to know what you were looking for. It wasn't like an Oscar Peterson track. Right, right, right. All right. So this is, we got a speak pipe here, which is a voicemail. You can leave us your voicemail at you'll hear.com. Did you know that, Peter? I did know that.

And we always make it sound super convoluted and complicated, but it's really easy. Many people do it. It's mainstream. Yeah. And we don't accept all. We're, we're being inundated or unindated. Unindated. Inundated.

Inundated. Inundated. Inundated. I love it. We challenge each other, like which public school education was even more inferior between both of us. And then we kind of, it's like a race to the bottom for us. There's really no way to tell that English is our first language.

When you listen, if you're a regular listener of the pod. Well, it's not. that's the we were going to do this podcast in German or in Lithuanian which we both speak fluently but we didn't want to exclude non-English speakers right yeah I mean you know we've got what they call around here High Ridge English you city English you city English no but we've been we have a lot of speak pipes so we're not able to get to all of them so we're starting to pick be a little selective so and this is not to scare anybody away please bring us your questions you don't have to obviously you don't have to speak the Queens English to

appear on this podcast. We're here, right? The Queens English. What is that even? We wouldn't know. This is a voice message. A good question here from Jared. Okay. Hey Adam and Peter. Jared from Boston here. Long time listener of the pod. Absolutely love it. Really interested to know what you guys think it takes for jazz music to be, or jazz influence music to be like mainstream and digestible. Is that, is that awkward to pause? Is that awkward to pause? But, okay, play, I don't. I'm not a fan of jazz. Do you think this is Fred?

I think this is Fred hiding. Oh, interesting. As I'm not sure. Sure. Similar. Jared. Armisen, maybe. But a little close.

A little close. No, okay. It's no. You guys think it takes for jazz music to be, or jazz influence music to be like mainstream, digestible. Like some of my favorite. examples would be like Buena Vista Social Club and

R.H factor and stuff like that. Anyway, cheers, guys. So those are interesting choices that his examples. So Bono Vista Social Club obviously is like the Brazilian Cuban musicians playing very traditional Cuban music.

Right. Certainly jazz was influenced by, but I wouldn't necessarily say their music is I guess it is. Well, a couple of the players on that I think they were all influenced by jazz, and you could say some of them were jazz musicians. That's true. Because there's some improv.

But I mean, yeah, I wouldn't, I would say that I think that we, you know, we look at jazz as a very, you know, inclusionary term. Inclusive, inclusive term. So I have no problem with Buenovista Social Club or RH Factor being called jazz records. They're both great. Yeah, I would prefer to just call them great albums. You know what I mean? And so just not because.

I don't think that they I don't think any of the stuff needs to fit in into anything if we can get over the turn like if we can look at jazz as just something celebratory or or calling it bam or I'm very open to another name but whatever the umbrella yeah the name is always going to be a problem it's it's always going to be a problem because the name is it's we're talking about music that's been around for a hundred years now and so the name you know are you talking about King Porter you're talking about Domie and J.D. Beck right both you could label this this is or isn't jazz, right? Yeah. That's so stupid. And it's all just music and it obviously has a thread of black American music, which we could label. But I think the label is a killer in and of itself. Most people that I know that make music have their own influences and they make music

based on those influences. Right. And so that is from a number of things. So I think first of all, like, it's problematic to like really put a label on it because then you're just going to box yourself into this like, well, some people who you might say play jazz, like you might say, oh, Nicholas Payton is a jazz trumpeter. He wouldn't say that about himself

and in fact says jazz died in 1959. You know what I mean? So like, yeah, that gets to be a problem of trying to describe these things. But I think what Jared is talking about are, just by his examples, are like, you know, music that has, obviously, black American influence

and sort of these like deeper, richer, rhythmic and harmonic and melodic structures. Yeah. Improvisation based, probably or improvisation is a factor, a big factor in the music. Yeah. So if we can like say that is our basis instead of jazz influenced or something, I think that would be easier to talk about.

Right. And I think that, you know, that's exactly it. So like a recording that is within the jazz realm or jazz adjacent, whatever you want to say, that becomes like a hit. Jazz? Well, it's kind of like, okay, somebody that, I mean, it's all screwed up now because who's collecting records and stuff? CDs. I don't know. Some people are.

But in terms of what you listen to, there's people that want to listen to quality music, but they have a genre that they really enjoy. And maybe they don't have a lot of jazz records, but they might have Buena Vista Social Club. And that, or RH Factor, and that would put them down the rabbit hole of

those things that are adjacent to those recordings with those different artists and stuff, which I think is great. So it almost becomes a thing of like, what's a great document of something that's kind of in the very inclusive jazz world that has crossed over. So you talk about those recordings. But then, you know, you kind of blue is like kind of the big elephant in the room. I think for that in terms of a obviously no one's going to argue that that's not a great jazz record. Yeah. That has that has crossed

over. But also a love supreme. Like we forget and blue train. Like some of these recordings have gone mainstream. I mean, we could update Rubeck time out. You know, there's, um, uh, uh, went Marsalis house flowers that, uh, and I believe even, um, black coats from the underground. Like these recordings went mainstream in terms of like, you know, millions of copies sold and streams or whatever. And so I think what makes them go mainstream, first of all, it's got to be a just fantastic document, a fantastic recording. Yep. You know, and usually it doesn't hurt to have a little bit of a story attached to it somehow. Yep. That could be in terms of the artwork. It could be in terms of the title. Black codes from the underground. What a fantastic title, fantastic album cover.

When a Vista Social Club had a great story of reunion of these art. going back to this, what I believe is actually sort of a fictional club or not something that they all were at, but it was a story. There was the movie, of course, but the recording is just unbelievable. The playing. It's beautiful. The sound, but the whole story about them recording in Havana, you know, Rykuder is, you know, as a master storyteller. And the German director, was it Vim, Vendors or whoever. I mean, it's, that's an extraordinary story. You know, you don't always have to have that. But kind of blue. Incredible sound. incredible playing, incredible programming, incredible musical story in terms of that.

But there's been other jazz adjacent records, too, even that you wouldn't put into that even traditional thing that I think stand out as well. Yeah. You know what I mean? But why we got to go adjacent? Why couldn't we even talk right within jazz? You could talk right within jazz. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. But I think, you know, what Jared is asking is, what does it take? I think the point you're making, too, is it's got to be good. Yeah. Like, it's got to be really good. three elements. Like, it's got to be great. The playing, obviously,

but not just the playing, the music. The music has to be good. It has to be something different and special about it. Yeah. Even amongst its genre. I mean, I think of like,

even in the past 20-some-odd years, like Nora Jones come away with me. Yeah. One of the biggest records of the decade. Yeah. And there's, you know, Brian Blade on that record. Like,

there's jazz musicians on there. She's obviously, you know, part of some kind of scene, or was part of some kind of scene in New York full of jazz musicians. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, a couple of years later, Robert Glastfer's Black Radio, you know, for sure. Jazz and Jason is Robert Glastor is, you know, an amazing pianist.

Right. Right. But would you say some of his trio records? Did they go mainstream or no? No, no, definitely not. You know, we've got a different, we have a different shelf we're talking about. But I think, like, that's okay. Like, these things keep popping out, though.

I mean, even in this past year, was John Batisse's record, a jazz record? No. Right. But I've seen him play Jelly Roll Morton compositions before. You know what I mean? Like, he is a jazz pianist. Like he's steeped in the tradition. Well, maybe that's it too.

So, like, we're talking about stuff that the jazz sensibility, the jazz spirit, the jazz, you know, joie de vivre, like, is brought to these recordings. So, like, John Batiste, there's that improvisational flair. There's that New Orleans flair. Buena Vista Social Club, you know, Ruben Gonzales. Is that the pianist's name? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. You know, is just incredible improvisations, you know, elegant and, you know, groove, but very jazz.

Jazz influenced, you know, Thelonis Monk influence. So like those elements are coming into that. That's why I would say inclusive of calling it jazz, jazz, jazz, adjacent, whatever you want to be. But yeah, so it's like the music, but just killing from beginning to end, playing, programmed everything. What was the other three hours? The story to it, which could be very much just within the music.

There's always some kind of story about it. I think Love Supreme's kind of like that. Yeah. The story is very much within the music. There's a little bit of vocals, but that's not necessarily the musical highlight, but it's the story and the spiritual highlight of it. It was a mystique to that record. Was it a hit in its day?

No, it's been a slow burn. I mean, it was a hit for a jazz record, but not in terms of as a mainstream. But I would say that that's a, I don't know. Isn't that a mainstream record? It's as mainstream as a acoustic jazz records ever gotten. Now it's like an iconic record. Yeah.

You know, where people will check it out when people go to learn about jazz, right? That's one thing they'll check out. But I mean, it's something that the, the, the GP, the general population, has attached themselves to for sure. I don't think there's really any, Jared, I don't think there's much predicting any of this either. There's musicians who are, you know,

steeped in the tradition or know how to play and they try to make commercially pop in music all the time. I mean, he mentioned RH Factor. Yeah. I don't know how big of a hit that was in the mainstream. That's what I'm saying. I love supremac sold way more records than,

you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Than RH Factor. But I guess coming from the angle, maybe he's saying with the question, it's like, okay, if you have a record with grooves on it and that it's not as obvious, we talk about John Batiste's last record or whatever,

not as obviously connected with jazz, especially if you have vocals or whatever, is that the thing that makes it go mainstream? Yes, possibly. Yeah. You know, and if you look at, you know, Buena Vista very much, like, you know, really examined and exploited in a beautiful way,

in not a negative way, exploited and exposed more, these wonderful Cuban grooves, grooves that are very distinct and very particular, but very universal, much in the same way a lot of great Brazilian jazz or jazz adjacent is as well. I mean, you talk about Sergio Mendez, you know, and those records. I mean, those things were Chick-Korea. Didn't Chick-Ria go with return to forever? Didn't that? Wasn't that mainstream? I guess so. Herbie Hancock? It's so hard, too, with this as well as we're talking about it. I'm realizing.

I'm confusing myself. It's such a different time. You know, I mentioned like the Nora Jones thing. That was really the last era when there would be a huge mainstream record. Right. You know what I mean? Like now everything is so, because of streaming. Yeah. And, you know, how music has gone so into, you know, these very distinct little boxes and everybody can listen to what they want to listen to and the radio is kind of dead.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's no big, there's not going to be another Nora Jones or Michael Jackson or Stevie Wonder where it's like they just really connect. Like a round swell. Yeah. or even like a Miles Davis, a Cannonball Adderly, where you can make a popular record where someone in Iowa, although I say that,

but, you know, there are still things like these internet institutions like Tiny Desk Concert concert, right? Yeah. It's like you see someone like Domi or J.D. Beck made a tiny desk and everybody was talking about it and sharing it, and someone in the middle of nowhere does know about Domi and J.D. Beck, but it is very specific.

Or Kirk Fran. Franklin, you know, that tiny dust. And that's just one example of that series. I like that one. That's a great one. But like that series, you know, is something that maybe connects people. Yes. I guess some.

There's a certain aesthetic to it that's cross genre. Right. Like, because they'll have like Taylor Swift and people maybe that. S.F. Jazz Collect. They just did one. Yeah, totally. So I just pulled up just so this is, you know, just the first thing that comes up on Google, the biggest jazz albums of all time.

There's a couple. that we forgot about that I'd be interested to see if you think these have gone mainstream. Okay. Stan gets Gibralto. Yeah, of course. You know, that's mainstream, right? That's a jazz record. And the reasons that, I think we kind of hit on similar to the Buena Vista, there's a story there.

That's not the first Boisanova record ever, but for a lot of people, it's the first and last. Well, and it's got a vibe. It's got a vibe. But that's like steeped, I mean, like, that's steeped in the authentic Brazilian groove that is so universal, so primal for. people around the world in much the same way as classical music, jazz, Cuban, African, West African, you know, many different things. Yeah, totally. So what are some other? I'm going to name some others.

This is going to, you're going to be surprised with some of these. And I can't really say that these sources are correct, but whatever. Billy Holiday Lady and Satin. I'm not surprised about that. Interesting. That's not my favorite record of hers. It's an amazing record. It's not my favorite of hers.

But for some reason. Yeah. I mean, I think because the hour. the cover's so great and great songs on it. I mean, I got no, I got no problem with it. It's a pop record, too. Yeah. Actually, that Stan Gets is not my favorite of his.

I'm totally good. You know what I mean? Oh, this is great, you know. Are Blakey and the jazz messengers, Mohnen? Great cover, grooving. Is that mainstream? Yes, but see, this is a, I'm pretty sure Mowin was somewhat of a hit. This is back when you could have an instrumental hit.

Yeah. You know, in the mainstream. And I don't think that happens as much. I mean, when was the last? instrumental hit, maybe Axel F in the 80s? Yeah, yeah, right. Someone knows it here. Or, you know, Herbie Hancock's Rocket? You know what I'm saying? The era of the instrumental hit is almost over.

I'm trying to, is Caleb, do you think of anything that might have a hit of that nature? See the Mario? That's a video game soundtrack. No, I just don't think there is one that would, like, chart like Monon probably was on the pop charts. Right, right. Okay, here's another one that very much an instrumental hit, Dave Bruebeck timeout, of course, take five is from there. 100%. Sunny Rollins saxophone colossus.

Yeah, I think that's a hit record. Great sound, great. I see a lot of these, like you would say, like, well, how come Sony Rollins, there's like 12 other records we could think of that are just as great, but they might not have had all those elements. Well, the fourth element I didn't mention was luck and timing. Oh, I'm thinking of probably the last era of instrumental hits, Kenny G. and I don't mean Kenny Jarrett. Oh, you kind of... Kenny Jarrett.

I don't know Kenny Jarrett. Kenny Jarrett is Kenny Jay. Kenny Jerry. Kenny. He was a NASCAR driving alto player. Sponsored by Doritos. Dale Garrett. Dale Garrett.

Oh, God. Okay, Ornette Coleman, the shape of jazz to come. No, that wasn't a hit. Well, this is one of the... Oh, I'm sorry. This is the 50 best jazz album. Yeah, I was going to say, that's an amazing record. Google, you didn't come through.

What are the, how about 100 jazz albums that shook the world? That sounds like a BS list. This is what happens when you Google stuff. I was going to say, what did you get that buzzfeed? Jazzwise.com. Jazz, jazz, buzz? Oh, my goodness. Anyway, but yeah, but some of these are actually, but you know what,

shape of jazz to come, I bet you have sold half a million copies. I'm sure it did because people were buying a lot of copies back then. Well, no, no, but most, I mean, also it is iconic. We've never really given an. that's a great do on this podcast man we got to give so we talk well I mean yeah we should do more but I mean the thing is it's a great album sounds great great story that's connected with the title and great title you know what I mean Charlie Hayden's playing on that entire record too so incredible

blue train I think the blue train definitely kind of coming out the instrumental hit thing you know starts out great great sound but I think the cover that's one of the greatest you know it's not necessarily what I would say is the greatest blue note cover but I think a lot of people would see it as that Ellington and Newport that's on here I mean that's a Yeah You know a lot of people

If they have one That's cool that it's a live record Would have you know kind of one Anyway I think we went too far into this We went way past the main street That's what's fun That's what we do

I like your shirt by there People can't YouTube can see it By the way if you're listening to this Go subscribe to the you'll hear YouTube channel we put all these episodes on YouTube Yeah It's looking good Caleb

We have three We have three assignments for the for the dear listeners Okay Number one Go subscribe to the to the YouTube channel, you'll hear it. There will be a link below or link to below wherever you are. Whether you list, even if you want to just listen to it on the pot, you know, subscribe

over there. That's, you know, there's some lively discussion that's starting to happen in the comments. I love it. And this episode will be on there. So go over there for lively comments. Yeah. And also, second thing you're going to do is leave us a rating review, seven stars. Yeah.

We're getting back to seven stars. Yeah, big boy stuff. No big, no, no little boy stuff. It's a right in vote of seven stars. Right. Big girl, big boy, no little boy, little girl stars. No, choose seven stars. Choose seven.

I choose Defiant Jazz. That's right. Yeah. Choose seven stars. Choose Defiant Jazz. And do that wherever you're consuming this podcast. Shepid Jazz to come is kind of defiant jazz. It is.

Exactly. And then the third thing is option to leave us to speak pipe at You'll Hear at dot com. Oh, that's a good one. So go to you'll hear.com and leave us a message. We want to hear from you. Ask us your question and like Jared. And we will ramble for 20 minutes. That's right.

That's right. That's right. We're going to do a whole episode coming up soon on. these best jazz album. We're going to debate this. On the best jazz albums? Yeah. In fact, we're going to do that in two days.

So until then, you'll hear it.