You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Leading Ensembles

Episode Date: May 7, 2019

It's another question from SpeakPipe today, and Peter and Adam answer with their experience being the leader of an ensemble. Wanna send a SpeakPipe of your own? Check out the bottom of the page at http://www.openstudionetwork.com/podcast.Today's episode is sponsored by the Oxford American. The Oxford American is a magazine dedicated to documenting the complexity and vitality of the American South. Its award-winning annual music issue comes with a CD sampler and digital download - a must-have for any serious music fan. Recent issues have featured Nina Simone, Thelonious Monk, John Cage, and John Cage. Visit https://www.oxfordamerican.org/yhi today for a special subscription discount!Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel and leave a comment for this episode.Interested in more jazz advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter & Instagram at:https://www.facebook.com/heyopenstudiohttps://twitter.com/heyopenstudiohttps://www.instagram.com/heyopenstudio See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Adam. What's up? Are you a leader? I am a leader, I think. Or you're a follower? Both. Okay. I'm Adam Anis.

And I'm Peter Murray. And you're listening to The You'll Hear at podcast. Daily Jazz Advice, coming at you. Coming at you, today's episode of the You'll Hear It podcast is sponsored by the Oxford. I love when you do that. Today's episode is sponsored by Oxford American. Really punctuating your access. But be careful because we use that as an editing tool sometimes.

You know what's weird is the more things I do on a camera. Like, you know, we're on YouTube here. I don't know if our listeners know that. You can always go to YouTube and check us out. What's up, YouTube? But the more times I'm on camera, I just sort of start talking with my hands. I didn't do this before we started this podcast. I was very much like a hands-in-the-lap kind of talker.

Right, right. And now I'm like, I don't know why. Well, I was wondering because we learned something last week from your wife on that beautiful guest appearance that she, that Mrs. Maness and Mrs. Martin did last week? It seems so long ago now. But remember, she did talk a little bit about your hands that, did she say they kind of had a fin, or was it a friend? or was it a bear? Bear paws. She calls them bear paws.

Because I could literally just be going for this coffee mug and just knock it off the table. Right. And then I'll sit down and play the piano. Right. She was so impressed with the duality of that. It is.

Well, go to Oxfordamerica.org. Woo! I'm thinking when you do that, it's like the otter, you know, it's like at the zoo. Or, you know, some bees. I guess they're not otters, are they? And we are way off track today.

Go to Oxfordamerican.org. YH. For some great deals. That's Oxfordamerican. dot org slash y h i 25 bucks for a yearly subscription can't beat that yeah it comes with the cd come on now how good is that it's good yeah uh today we have a speak pipe we're loving our speak pipes thanks everybody i'm still clapping thanks everybody for sending a minute edit edit and uh this one's from derrick okay i'll speak a little on this pipe peter adam i love your show my name is derrick i live

in los angeles i have a question about leading ensembles when you're leading an ensemble from the piano, let's say it's a rhythm trio plus horn and you know a tune really well, maybe because it's one of your own tunes or a chart you've played a lot before, what methods do you use to keep the tune fresh for yourself while the band picks it up? In other words, when the other people in the ensemble are behind your knowledge of the tune, how do you stay patient for them while still thinking ahead to what to ask for or offer when they do catch up to your knowledge, and how can you help them understand your interpretation of the tune faster so that you can uncover your group's unique interpretation as effectively as possible.

What makes a good piano trio pianist? Thanks again. Love, love, love your show. This is Derek in L.A. Love it, Derek. Love the speak into the pipe. I know, that was good. And then I love at the very end how he throws it a whole other huge question. Also, what makes a good piano, trio? Is it together?

I think he was, yeah, he was. It was like, what makes a good piano trio pianist. Yeah. I think the whole thing is about leadership and leading a group. Right. From what I gather of this question. And it's a good question because it is a separate skill. It's not playing.

It's a whole other thing. Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I think he mentioned the word patience. You know, how do you stay patient? So there is the, you know, there's the grappling with not staying patient. And to your point of leadership, we have to stay patient when we're leading. And we know something more or we know what's going to happen. all, when we think we know we're right, we're not always right. We are pianists, so we're

usually right. That is true. And we're usually leading. No, but part of, part of it is I think having the spirit at least of that we may not be right or there may be another way. So we, we, you know, being patient is not just being like, oh, we're waiting for everyone to catch up to our knowledge. We have to be open as well. Or there might be a middle ground to meet or whatever. Or look, we're not always, you know, sometimes you're in a situation where you're playing and you're like, wow, I know all this better than everybody on the bandstand. But having that, but having that, that kind of mentality as you're playing cannot lead to the most edifying performance for the audience.

And that's really what you're there for. So, I mean, if you imagine that, like, LeBron James were to go play with, you know, us, say, a little three on three. And he was, we were part of his team. You know, he could either be like, well, he could, like, pass the ball to where we're supposed to be or he could, like, and then wait for us to go there, but we wouldn't make it there in time. Or he could kind of, I don't want to say play down to our level, but kind of pull us up

as far as we could go, but then play with us. Yeah. I don't know. This is kind of an impossible situation. Yeah, I mean, well, you mentioned the word open, and I think for Derek, this has got to be the key. I think some of the most important decisions in these kind of situations is actually who you hire or who you're playing with. And then you have to be open to let them do what they do, even if they don't know the material or they're not as familiar with it as you are. Like, what they bring has to be a part of the equation.

It has to be. Absolutely. And oftentimes. Even if you make them, even if you are up, and you realize you made a mistake in who you chose. That's still on you more than them. They're just who they are. Right.

And you have to let that happen in a way that's organic. You can't, I mean, you can't expect them to come to where you are in the tune. Whatever that is. I'm not even sure what we're talking about here. If we're talking about, like, you know, knowing a particular jazz standard or arrangement. But any of those situations, whomever is on the gig is on the gig, and you have to be open to what they bring to it. And actually, you have to play in a way that encourage them to be them.

themselves. Yes. And to do it the way they're going to do it the best that that serves how they can play. Because ultimately that's what you hired them for or that's what you pulled that ensemble together for. I'm not telling a drummer exactly how to play everything. Hey, play this beat exactly like this. Not actually you do that. Well, in certain situations. Literally sat down. No, no, no. But no, no, not. Usually I'm, I'm, I'm saying, I think it's going to be this vibe. Yeah. And then I let it happen how it's going to happen. Yeah. And that's, it's an art to that. It's not a science. but that's why I think we're talking about things that are a little bit sort of try to get the mindset, try to get the mentality

as you go in and then let your actions and your words and I mean look once you're on the band stand playing a gig it's really a little too late to deal with a lot of this stuff not to say that we've all got in those situations where we're like oh my God, why is everybody so what am I doing here or how do I get there to be more of a like symbiotic relationship between say the trio I mean you know him mentioned that

and it's funny because at the beginning talking about, I think he said, some horn players in like a rhythm section or one horn, you get into a situation where there's several different relationships that you, as a leader, you have to kind of manage. There's the whole group, and then you with the audience and how all of it is a pyramid, but then there's the rhythm section thing.

Yeah. There's the bass in the drums. There's you between it. But with the trio, there is the opportunity there to really have that kind of triangle type of love triangle kind of, you know. Yeah, I don't know. Careful. Yeah, I don't know anything about that,

But I'm just saying, like, you can, you know, it's a special relationship where you can have something going on between where there doesn't necessarily need to be as much overt leadership. That's more of just assembling the right things like where you can really get the trust going, you know. And there's something that I do, I realize now thinking about this, that I do to help steer the conversation to where I'd like the music to go. Hopefully I have the right people in place for this and they're going to just play how they play. But if I want us to reach a certain vibe or whatever, I'll actually do arrangements. of other peoples of recordings. Like, hey, let's do this version of this from this recording. And that way I can kind of start setting the tone of what I want the group to do.

Because hopefully they're going to, like, and I'll send the records. Like, I'll send the recordings of MP3 or a video or whatever of whatever I want to do. Like, let's get this vibe. You know, and then I'm kind of directly like, hey, let's kind of make it like this, you know. And even if we don't end up playing that arrangement for very long, I have sort of set the tone with the vibe of that of that vibe. Yeah, you've given the reference point. You've given everybody something to rally around.

And I think doing that in a way, you know, with the music, if it's from recording, what you record, I think, you know, strong leadership in the musical situation is not that different than other things. Like, you have to do some things that are when you start out are going to be counterintuitive to what most people think of as leadership. Most people think it's like, I'm in the front, everybody's supporting me. But I think true leadership, especially in a trio situation. is about like how can you support the others. Make the drummer sound good.

Yeah, and you're thinking that first. Now, hopefully you'll have people together that are also going to be giving that back. But if you're putting, I mean, the whole thing of leadership, otherwise you can kind of co-lead it. And that can work good too sometimes if everybody's on the same wavelength. But if you are kind of needing to be the one to get the music until you get to that point where you're trying to establish a vibe,

you have to be willing to put yourself last. So that means picking music. Now, I think about John Coltrane. And I don't know, I mean, I've read some books, and I know his music so much better than I know his words and the actual history of it. But I think about when he put together the great quartet, you know, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner. And I think about the way that Coltrane played before that, like, he was a very strong leader, like in terms of. And I don't think that there was a lot of, hey, McCoy, do your fourth thing here. Yeah, I just don't think that.

But I mean, in that, like, he created that group that was really based around some of the strengths of everybody but him in a way. yet he retained his sound. Like he wasn't playing with that kind of a group before that. Like he let Elvin Jones like just drive things. He let Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones. McCoy. And McCoy and you know,

individually and together and was able to harness the best of everything there in a way that was that. So I mean, that's kind of the model. I read this interview with him from Ralph Gleason in this conversation's in jazz book. It's a great book. And he talks about McCoy

actually sort of dictating some of the tones of that great quartet, dictating where they were kind of going sonically and how he, you know, I mean, it's obvious he let that happen and he was inspired by that. And I think that's the key, Derek, is like, you know, finding the players that are going to not just play it the way that you envision it, but surprise you, change it, make it better, you know. In every situation I've been in where it's been really good, it's been a team effort.

And even if I have a, and I usually do have a very strong vision of how I think, it should be yeah i try to be open and let people bring their stuff to it and it usually almost always makes it better yeah and look it's not you're not going to always have actually you're never going to have mccoy tiner elvath jones and jimmy garrison or players on that level probably yeah so it's not about that true leadership is going to be like what about when you've got some younger players that i mean mccoy and then were young then some people could be like man get some more seasoned guys you know but what yeah what are you going to do when you you know don't have the optimal group or somebody sends in a sub, you can't be like, oh, man, you know, it's up to you to make sure

the thing sounds as good as it can. Yeah. And don't underestimate the value of positive reinforcement. All humans are just dumb praise machines. That's all we want. And we feed off it. You are so right at them. You're so smart, man. Exactly. Pete loves it when I interject with these little. Yeah, it's just so brilliant what you're saying. No, but if you like what someone does, if that's closer to the vision that you're feeling for the music, let them know after the gig, say, hey I loved it when you did that thing man it was so killing and please you know feel free to do that anytime yeah you know positive affirmation members there was a trumpet player around st. Louis when I was coming up and I probably was still around when you were coming up here too but like every jam

session this is back when there was like a lot of jam sessions around town and stuff he would play and he would you know everybody else who played or whatever you know you kind of hang out afterwards or even like right after the tune yeah and he come by like man you sounded good how did I sound. That was his thing. You sounded good. How'd I sound? He didn't even wait for, you know, to say, but I mean, kind of put you on the spot. I'm like, oh, you sounded? He didn't sound good, by the way. Yeah, of course. No. He's asking.

He's asking. Well, why did I lie to him? Well, thanks, Derek, for the speak pipe. Yeah, thanks for the West Coast love. We're getting some nice Southern California warmth here, man. I love Southern California. Yeah, I mean, St. Louis, it's dreary and 48 degrees. It's 40 degrees right now in April. And rainy. In L.A., it's probably like,

well, forget it. Don't forget to go to Oxford American.org slash YHI for some great deals on that fantastic quarterly magazine. And don't forget to go to you'll hear.com to leave us your speak pipe. Leave a pipe into the speak. Wait. Speaking to the pipe. Speaking to the pipe. Right.

Not in an outstate Missouri meth head way, though. Let's be clear. It's not that kind of pipe. We are doing a lot of meth head references lately. I know we're in Missouri and I know it's still prominent here. But you know what? We are not the number one meth state. Did you know that?

We celebrated every day here. We're like number three. We're high. I mean, we're not. Exactly. You'll hear it.