You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Let the lyrics guide you.(or don't)

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Peter and Adam respond to a listener's thoughtful question about the importance of learning the lyrics and should they “inform the musical offering” (and questioning sanity). Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeSupport the pod by spreading the word with the link youllhearit.com Learn more about Open Studio Pro: openstudiojazz.com/proInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. It's Wednesday. Wednesday. Is this, um, is this, uh. You're gonna do it? Got it? Does he have it?

It's a feature. It's a feature. We do it every Wednesday. Yeah. Um, Slippy, Slippie, Slappy Slop. Speak Pipe. Wednesday. He's got it.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear podcast. Music, advice, inspiration, and answers to your burning questions via the speak pipe. Coming at you. A brand new taglinger. It's like he improvises a tag. He's an improvisist. I'm an improviser.

Sue me. I like to improvise. It is a brand new speakpipe every Wednesday. And answers, a speakpipe is a voicemail. You can leave us at you'll hear it.com. Go there. And there's a big button that says, leave us a message. Or maybe it says, ask this question. I forget what it says.

You're so confident while you're describing it. I know. You have no idea. It's pretty obvious, though. And some people have found it, as is evidence by today's episode. Yeah, loads of people have found it, including this guy. Listen to this. Test, test, test.

That was a speak pipe. Someone left us. Nice. Yeah. answer to that. Well done. It worked. Test accepted. But we did get one from Jonathan. Now, Jonathan is a long time open studio member. In fact, Jonathan just played a masterclass for you, Peter, just last week. He killed it. He did kill it. Slate it via Zoom. He's a very fine pianist, and Jonathan asked us this question. This is Jonathan Cohen from San Diego. I've been thinking about advice that's

standardly given to instrumentalists that we should learn a tunes lyrics, even if we never intend to play it with a vocalist. So I don't disagree with the idea that knowledge about the tunes you play is a good thing. I'm certainly not interested in defending the virtues of ignorance over knowledge. And of course, it's better to make musical decisions from a position of knowledge. Moreover, at least some of the reasons that are standardly offered for learning lyrics are totally convincing to me. So, for example, knowing lyrics can be helpful for one's phrasing of the melody. However, I'm less convinced about another frequently offered reason, namely that when we know the lyrics, we'll play the tune in a way consonant with the mood they set. So it seems to me that that justification depends on giving the lyrics the kind

of authority over other dimensions of musical choice that's totally undeserved. Look, it's a fact about the way that human brains make sense of the world that if you put words in front of us, then the semantic content of those words is so powerful, so informative, this tends to stop all over every other kind of information that we have. But why, as musicians, should we be inclined to surrender this way. It seems to me that if you have a musical conception for a tune that you intend to play without vocalist, as opposed to that that conception has its own musical integrity in other ways, I'm inclined to think that the fact that your conception might be at odds with the content of the lyrics is not a reason to give up your conception. It should be on the table as a

legit musical choice. Am I crazy? Thanks in advance for any input on this. I'm looking forward to hearing your thinking. Well, there's a lot there. But the question, is actually, are you crazy? I don't think so. I don't think so. Peter, if only our listeners were more thoughtful. Exactly. If only they really thought through the question. It's an excellent question. And so just... Well, no, is it though? I think it's a...

No, that I am I crazy part? This is not the place to come to find that out for sure. Oh, yeah, that's an excellent. It's always a good to question that your sanity, I think, whereas we're, especially as we're working on music. Totally above our pay grade. I love how Jonathan structured this question. You know, first of the, like going through the importance of learning the lyrics, at least in the sense of, you know, being able to

phrase the melody, of course. You can always tell when someone doesn't know the lyrics and they're phrasing a melody because usually there's extra notes or not enough notes or, you know what I mean? Or they're emphasizing the wrong, putting emphasis on a place that just wouldn't be natural, you know, in a lyric. Look at me. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So, but the question of like, should the lyrics, you know, the context, you know, the content of the lyrics, the story of the song, should it inform the musical, a musical instrumental offering of the song is a great question. Yes. And I don't. And that seems to be kind of the heart of what he was,

there is almost, I think with Jonathan is almost there's a, undertone of we're going to have to spend a lot of time on this and is it really worthwhile? Like is the cost benefit analysis on learning this? And possibly even, Is there something that could be taken away from your own interpretation and originality by learning? Because he's right. We are so language-driven.

Like our brains love to lock on to language. And in a way, language takes away a lot from, you know, the sort of vague aspects of music that make music so beautiful. The mystical and the esoteric and all the things that make it its own language. Actually, yeah, Kierkegaard wrote a ton about Mozart and how, you know,

music is superior to text in all these different ways, right? Excuse me, he just dropped two names. Kierkegaard and Mozart, right on the pod. I'm trying to hang with Jonathan here. I'm probably embarrassing myself. But it's true, though. He makes a great point about that. And so the paradox, though, is Jonathan is like,

how can you play the melody if you're learning a tune, not knowing the lyrics in an informed way, and then forget them when you are there to make an arrangement or to improvise in a way that has nothing to do with the story or the content of the lyrics. That's how I think you could get in trouble. And you mentioned like you're not advocating for coming out a place of ignorance because I don't think. Oh, no, ignorance is bliss, I thought. It can be.

It can be. That's the problem is if you don't know the lyrics, then you don't sound any different than someone. Like if you don't know the lyrics and that's an artistic choice, fine. Yeah. But you're probably going to sound like someone who just doesn't know. the lyrics. Right. Who is just either ignorant or too lazy to learn them.

Yeah, because you could know. I think that in my experience, you can know the lyrics, but not use them in a direct way to inform your interpretation. Like, just because you know them doesn't mean you have to use them. It's not like, oh, I mean, I agree with, I think what I'm hearing Jonathan say and what you were concurring on in that language does dominate. our, you know, can sort of dominate our psyche and center us in a way. But I think that when it comes to music, because we are musicians first, I mean, unless

you're a singer, you got to know the lyrics then, right? So that's, this is different. But if you're playing something, I feel like, because there's so many other elements that we understand the form, the harmony, you know, the progression, the melody, you know, how the rhythmic structure informs those things. To me, even if you know the melody, that doesn't ever take over for me. Um, it's, it's, it's just another element to have to, to, to be able to grab onto it certain times in, in some obvious and important ways, like how do you phrase the melody probably, especially with certain types of tunes that's more important than others. Um, but I, I don't think that it, it's, it's so binary in that, like, you either learn them and it dominates everything that you play and you can't put your own interpretation because it's going to get in the way, um, you know, knowing the lyric is going to get in the way of, of something else you might have had and crowd that out. I don't think it's a zero-sum game. like that. I think it's just another element.

But that's in my experience. So this is definitely a YMMV situation. I know you get nervous when I felt those letters around at it. I always know what they mean. But I'm just saying like, I don't want to speak for other people and be like because maybe if it does you know, all of our brains sort of operate it in a different way. But for me, it's both ways. It's like it never really dominates even when I know the lyrics. And then the other side of it is there's some tunes. I'm going to be, I'm going to be, can I be honest? Is this a safe space? It is. Yeah. Safe, safe space. Okay.

There's some tunes that I probably should know the melody to that I can play pretty darn good and I'm ashamed a little bit to say I don't know the lyrics to that. But that's everybody. You know, we're not, we're not bad in a thousand percent with all of this. But that just shows that I, it's not like you have to know them. Miss Jones. See someone? I know there's something. He's old Miss Jones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best. Exactly. No, but I think that, but that also shows that it can enhance it, but it's not necessarily, you didn't hear it from me. It's not necessary to do it well. Like, because these different elements, they don't, they don't, they exist in a vacuum, you know, how melody and lyric and how they interact. Like, you can just have a great melody on its own. Is it greater with the lyric? Well, if it's being sung by a great singer,

yeah. But like, does it always enhance in an explicit or just an overt way, you know, my interpretation of it? Not, not always. It should. I mean, it's never like, like he said, it's never like, let's try to be ignorant of it. But I think that there's, you can never say like, it's sort of like a great basketball player comes to play or any kind of athlete. And then like they do like a world record performance or they just dazzle. It's like, oh my gosh, they're playing. And like it turns out they didn't warm up and they were hungover or something. Does that take?

I mean, yeah, they should have prepared better. But does that take away from the fact that it is possible to do it without doing all the quote unquote correct or right things all the time? That's totally valid. But just for it to play devil's advocate a little bit here. And I'm not, I'm not saying it should be. I'm just saying that that is. one element. And that's totally the case. And, you know, 99% of people won't notice. But, you know, again, is it, is that playing into just ignorance, right? Is that, like, is it better to be willfully ignorant of the lyrics? Or can you still be contrarian to the content of the lyrics, knowing the lyrics? Like, isn't that better in a way to know, especially if you're playing?

To know it and ignore it or discard it as needed for musical reasons. As a musical choice. Yes, exactly. Because you have to assume as well that your audience. If you're playing a song that has well-known lyrics, a great American songbook standards, if you're playing a tune like Having Memis Jones or the way you look tonight or anything like that, you have to assume that some of your audience, especially people who are into this kind of music, will know those lyrics.

And so if you are making the choice not to learn them because you don't want them to color how you're interpreting the melody and the changes and the music in general, that's a choice that maybe your audience ought to know about? I don't know. I mean, maybe not. but like I don't understand the point in that case of not learning the lyrics or at least reading and knowing the story of the song because you know again it depends on the kind of

music you're playing here but most of these great American songbook standards it goes a lot deeper than just a lyricist and a musician getting together and someone's got a bunch of lyrics and someone puts music to it like a lot of it was crafted in a way if you talk to like vocalists who are super into this a lot of this was crafted in a way where like the vowel sound on the way a melody turns is important, you know, and intentional. Right. But that's going to be different on a piano. Of course it's going to be different on a piano.

Like a cello or an alto saxophone might be closer because it's a more lyrical instrument, or it's at least a more easily identifiable lyrical instrument closer to the human voice a little bit. But to Jonathan's point, if you're here to, if you really want to have your own point of view on a tune, I don't think that learning the lyrics would hinder that As much as you think Because it's not like you're learning the lyrics And then you have to sing them in your head as you're doing it You can learn them in the way forget them

And maybe this is a thing with that this is maybe part of Jonathan's quandary That's is maybe that is for him Maybe some people they do Like it's almost like once you see Like you can't unsee it I don't know I totally get you know I don't It didn't like that for me though I'm not someone who likes to learn about the history of artists

because for me, like, I don't, I kind of don't want to know. Yeah. Like, I don't want to know what Paul Simon is up to. I just want to enjoy Paul Simon's music. And then, like, I get this, I kind of create this character of who's singing these songs. You know what I mean? And I can see that. I can see that it's like, I don't actually want to know what the story is behind this tune.

I just want to enjoy the tune for what it is. I get that. But that's, but that's also a little different because you're talking about enjoying and consuming art or entertainment as opposed to creating it. Yeah, that's true. You know, like being part of the process. And I think that Jonathan is maybe, I don't know, maybe we're putting too much into what he said.

He was very clear about his question. But, you know, this idea is that, like, what is the proper amount of information that we need to have in order to be able to interpret a song? You know, like, if we know the lyrics and learn that and then we have, and that we understand what the story is of the lyrics, is that going to destroy our ability to maybe bring an alternative kind of movement? kind of mood and story which is always the advantage of an instrumental version. I mean, it's very hard if you're singing

Have you met Miss Jones like the way those lyrics come off and you want to make this like into something that the story isn't telling because you have to say the... I mean, unless you just abandon the words. Yeah, but it's so very hard to play the melody to have you met Miss Jones or anything else.

Like if you actually, we did this in the GPS the other day is why I'm using having met miss Jones. And I don't actually have the lyrics memorized, but we did an exercise where we played the melody while we were reading the lyrics. Yeah. It changes the way you phrase it, and it's much better.

Yeah. It's funny how that happens. So Jonathan, I don't know how you would get around playing a tune and playing the melody without ever knowing the lyrics. But that again does come back to that sort of differentiation between using for sure.

I think we can all agree. And it's very clear to see how you can use the melody for how you phrase. I mean, you use the lyrics, the knowledge of the lyrics in terms of how you phrase the melody, even when you're not singing it. Yeah. But versus like understanding the mood and the story and then feeling like you're locked into that kind of thing.

Like, I mean, I recorded, you know, never let me go is the lyrics on that are very like romantic, but there's that element as I'm remembering of kind of betrayal in different things, but it's a very intimate song, you know, when you know the lyrics. But I did an arrangement of that that's like kind of uptempo and it's kind of dark in a different, not necessarily dark, but it's just. like it's just a totally different vibe. And so I sort of threw the lyrics out. I knew them.

Yeah. You know, and I played it like that. And of course, I know the Keith Jared version and, and mainly, you know, the Nat King Cole vocal version,

which is amazing where he's just like straight singing it and killing it. Yeah. And it's in the melody and the lyrics are beautiful. Kind of like the walking two feel on that one, the Nat Cole version. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, from at the movies. And I mean, but I think that that doesn't mean that it has to always be that. Even if you know what that is.

Like, but it's not going to always work. but you might have an idea of like, let's do something else with this. Because the whole thing with instrumental music is we have more freedom than vocal music in a lot of ways. Because, like, they maybe have more power in terms of like you can speak directly to people with the spoken word because you're using melody. We're using all the same melodies when we do plus the words. It's a, you have a face on it. You have a face on it.

You have a face on it. You're looking directly and you're speaking. But think about the power of these songs. Even when you speak, talking to somebody who speaks in other language, you're understanding. Without text, there's no doubt. Or Italian. Without text, there's no doubt that there's deeper emotional depth there for sure. Available to us.

Right. And maybe is, I mean, how different is it then if you go to see, you know, a great Italian opera and it's not, they're not doing it in English. I want to hear it in an Italian. Even though I'm going to miss a lot of like the storyline. I've never heard opera in English. Our language doesn't work for it. They used to do it here for years, you know, and it was, yeah. I mean, if they're saying it's still going to be good, but it's not as good maybe.

Terrence Blanchard is killing it with English. But. Well, but no, but he wrote it in English. I'm talking about you. Rigoletto's been translated. Oh, yeah. That's awful. Fit it into it.

I was like, how lazy can we be? Come on. That takes ugly American listener to that or another level. But I mean, I think that you could, you're sitting there and you're listening. First of all, you're going to pick up a few things here or there. But you're mainly from the vibe, from the acting, from the way that the art is delivered. You're going to get the feeling that's maybe on a deeper level than actually hearing the overt words of like, I love you. Like we know how to put that into harmony and melody and rhythm and into a whole beautiful thing that exhibits love on a much deeper level than just I love you.

Just the way a great vocalist isn't just going to be like, I love you. And that's it. You know, it's got to be wrapped up in a vibe and a feeling and an emotion. That's true. No, there's a thinness to lyrics and text that has an advantage in that it's so direct that there's no doubting what it is. But that's also its disadvantage. It's so direct that there's no mystery in what it is. And so I get that.

but I still don't understand how to get around the melody problem, especially on Great American Songbook standards that are so tied in with the lyrics. Right. Not that you have to follow the story. I don't think for me, knowing the story of the song would taint my version of trying to color it, however I felt like coloring it, you know. Yeah, so I think that this can work well.

I think the answer too is like it depends on what song it is. Yeah, that's true. I mean, Blue Bossa has lyrics, I believe. Do you really need to know them in order to be able to play that tune? Also, you know what? You know what is something we haven't talked about yet, but could make a huge difference? How good is it?

How good is your arrangement? Like, did you pull it off? You know, like, because maybe that, like, I think that's kind of the best test of it is, does it suck? Exactly. If it's really amazing and you don't know the lyrics, well, you've won that round.

Exactly. And that's what I meant about, like, the athlete that shows up and didn't warm up, but they still, now it might be harder for them. Yeah, of course. And they maybe were lucky. It doesn't really matter because, you know,

they got the job done. Yeah, I think in general, you know, when people say, learn the lyrics to the tune, it's more of just advice of like, if you want to make it a little easier on yourself of how to phrase things. And it depends on like what style player you want to be, especially for piano. Totally. Like if you're playing straight down the middle and you're accompanying Tony Bennett, you should know the lyrics. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And you're got it because you're, but I mean, if, yeah, if you like to play bebop blues all the time and like that's your thing, then it's obviously still can be helpful.

You don't have to know every John Hendricks's lyric that was written to that tune. And I mean, I think about like, you know. Kurt Elling, you know, post-bop, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just, yeah, it's a lot of things. And this is an area, I think, in general, that as you mature as a player, as we all mature as a player, I found that realizing that there is no one, like, you know, when you're younger, when you're trying to learn this, it's like you're looking for that secret answer, not secret answer. Like a secret scroll that gives you that really clear answer.

And there isn't. Like, it's very much trial and error. And like sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And for better tune, like some of the stuff is just logical. It's like for better tunes with better lyrics, it's going to help you more. Ellis Marcellus used to tell all of us, you know, from back in the day that like learn the lyrics, learn the lyrics. And so I never took that from him. Well, probably at first I took that as like, oh my God, I have to learn the lyrics of every tune.

But then it was kind of like learn this. This will this will. It's kind of like practice with the metronome. Now, we know that that's helpful and important. I also heard the great Chick Korea RIP, love you, you know, talk about don't practice with them. or practice with it in a way that I can't remember. It was like some kind of way that was different that I was taught to. It was like, oh, well, obviously that worked for him.

Totally. But I'm not going to be like, oh, that's the only way to do it. Yeah. So I think that learn the lyrics. Do you have to learn them for every tune? But try it out. It's going to enhance. I've never found that it didn't enhance.

I got yelled that by a possibly fake, possibly real Richie Byrack on YouTube for using a metronome. Oh, you was real. I think about it in the real Richie Byrach. It's pretty good. Pretty annoying on that. Told me not to use a metronome because I feel like too robotic. Right.

So there's that. And then I've had so many great players tell me to use ones. In the names of, in the words of a fantastic sitcom from when I was growing up, different strokes. Different strokes for different folks. Absolutely right. Jonathan, what a great question. A wonderful discussion here. And you can see you stumped us on it for sure.

No, it's not a stump. You know, it's something that I think like, you know, it just, it really depends. And that's why it's a great question. Yeah. In general, yeah, like learn the lyrics to standards. But also in general, you don't have to if you can make it work. Like, like, you know, whatever works. It's definitely not at all.

I don't think, I've never seen it work as an all or nothing. What about tunes that have terrible lyrics? I never will learn one lyric. And somebody that's like, I know the lyric to every single song I've ever played. You know that tune Spring can really hang you up the most. It's not a great lyric. Yeah. It's like a horse led to a something.

I don't know. There's a horse in the lyric. Love for sale is weird. Yeah. I mean, just because of the whole prostitution side of it. It's odd choice. But yeah. Anyway, thanks, Jonathan.

All right. And don't forget to leave us your own speak pipe. You can go to you'll hear it. Do it now. Do it now. And until next time, you'll hear it.