You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - "Maiden Voyage" — Herbie Hancock

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Today we're going on an aquatic journey with Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage. Herbie calls the title track the best tune he's ever written.  We dive deep into the music to explore what makes this tune, and this album, great. The roots of Maiden Voyage date back in 1963, when Herbie began hearing rumors that Miles Davis wanted to hear him play. He didn't believe it at first -- Miles was at the height of his celebrity by this point. But soon he got a call. He went over to Miles's house and played with him, George Coleman, Tony Williams and Ron Carter for three days. On the third day, Miles asks the group to come to studio to record Seven Steps to Heaven. Herbie says, "Does that mean I'm in the band?" Miles says, "You're making the record, mother f**cker!" After two years playing in what many call the one of the greatest jazz ensembles of all time, Herbie would release Maiden Voyage in 1965. Along with George, Tony and Ron, plus saxophonist Freddie Hubbard. Although it is one of his simplest tunes -- with a rhythm inspired by a cologne commercial -- Maiden Voyage would become a favorite and a standard among jazz musicians. In this episode, you'll hear:- Adam and Peter pick apart the greatest moments from the album, including some perfect solos- The story of the commercial roots of this jazz standard- Where the record got its aquatic theme- Why a great song starts with a great bassline (just ask Ron Carter)- How this record could have been even better ... if it weren't for that piano sound- Where we land on Van Gelder Sound controversy-----Get the YHI newsletter for bonus stories that didn't make the pod.Start your free Open Studio trial for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs.Keyboards? Albums we haven't covered. "Boomer" talk. We know you have opinions about this show. Help us make You'll Hear It better by sharing your feedback with us and answering a short survey. You could win one of three $100 Amazon gift cards! Visit youllhearitsurvey.com to learn more and fill out the survey.Want more Herbie Hancock content? Learn why Herbie's greatest era is not even jazz on last season's episode on Headhunters.

Bout le do be do Bidoo Bidoo Biddu Bidoo Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Bid Disholab. What are you playing it dude? Oh, I'm working on my aquatic jazz. What is aquatic jazz? What? It's like stuff that has to do with the sea. You know, like this. Somewhere

Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Beneath the sea. Somewhere waiting for me. I gotcha. And we'll go sailing. I'm not sure that... Can we maybe try something hipper that's aquatic?

Seychelles. Yeah, baby. Oh, you want something else? Yes, please. Okay, how about this? Yes. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast.

Music Explored. Explored. Brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to Open Studiojazz.com for... Your jazz lesson needs. Yes, sir. I will. I like that.

Peter Martin. Yes, sir. This is a big one today. This is a big one. I mean, they're all been... Have we ever said that before? Never. No, but look, you know what?

This is the real big one. We don't even have to explain ourselves. Look, boom. Come on. Boom, roasted. Done. Mike drop. Made voyage.

Now, let's explain it. Okay. Herbie Hancock's Bayon voyage. I love just touching this. Sumi. I love to touch this album. Yeah, because it just, it's so, it's a cool album. It's tactile.

I love LPs, but this just, it just takes you to another place. You know, we're going to get to the accoutrements. Yeah. Remember when we were a great country and we had back of album covers like that? It was great. With liner notes, you know. We used to make things in this country. Like, Main Voyage.

But it's just, it's like, this is a piece of art, right? You know, it's not just this. It's the sounds. It doesn't matter if you're listening on Spotify. You don't have to be boozy and have an LP like us. But, I mean, it's just like what this represents and all the sounds and the memories, you know, past, present, as in today and future, I would say. All right, Adam, I want you to picture something here. Okay.

We got a little music, a little time machine bubble is going to come down on us. Okay? Okay. Okay. Okay. It's 1963. Herbie Hancock is a young man, 22 years old in New York City. Yeah, yeah.

On his way to being an established member of the jazz scene, he starts hearing rumors that Miles Davis, ever heard of him? Yes. Wants him for his band. Could you imagine? Oh, that would be so awesome. He was amazing. Now, by this time, Miles is obviously already an absolute legend.

So Herbie doesn't really believe the rumors. He wants to, but he's like, yeah, yeah, right. But one day, his phone rings, and it's Miles Davis. Hey. On a landline. Remember those? Yes. I wonder if you would have had to call an opera.

I guess you could direct dial. Yeah. It'd be like Stafford 7-344 is Mr. Herbie Hankham. You still had to do the shunk. Shunk kind of. Dude, I was doing that in some... The rotary phone. Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, so Miles Davis is on the phone and he says, come over. He doesn't say what? He's just like, come over to my crib. All right. All right. When Herbie gets there, there's a 17-year-old drummer, Tony Williams already there. Base player by the name of Ron Carter.

Ever heard of him? Friend of the pod. Right. Future Sir Ron Carter. George Coleman, the tenor sexophonist, and Miles Davis, of course. They were already all there. So they all started playing together.

No idle chit-chat. Miles was not big on idle chit-chat, just music. But after just a few minutes, Miles says some kind of curse word, according to her. No. And throws his trumpet on the couch and just takes off upstairs. He disappears for a while as the band practices in Miles' living room. Turns out, Miles was spying on them and listening the whole time from upstairs.

Davis was such an accent. He had a house phone. Do you remember house phones? Yeah, of course. No, you don't. Oh, you do? Intercon system. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Intercom. Yeah, yeah. What did I say? Intercon system? That was what we had in Highridge, intercon. It was just a little bit of a nefarious. Yeah, so he had some kind of intercom.

So he's listening to what they're playing. They did this for three days. Just come over, play, Miles listening, you know, dropping it a little bit. They practiced in Miles' living room. Miles comes in and out and disappears for very long stretches. And on the final day, Miles says, on Monday, we got to meet. the record studio.

Amazing. Herbie's like, does that mean I'm in the band? That's totally, man. I would, I know. Herbie's like confident. I like that.

Yeah, yeah. But Miles famously, never very, like, transparent about if you were in or out, you know? Right. And Miles responds, this is a direct quote

from Herbie Hancock. Go for it. You're making the record, motherfucker. There we go. So a few days later, they were in the studio recording this.

Hey. Seven steps to heaven. Seven steps to heaven. Yeah. Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams. Great piano sign on this. A little foreshadowing. Oh, great drum sound.

Hold on. Great. So you can have a great piano sound and a great drum sound? That's possible? I didn't think it was. By the way, that's Seven Steps to Heaven. It's a Victor Feldman composition.

Right. Who's also on the album on different tracks. But not on this track. Not on this track. They gave it to Herbie. Yeah, they recorded that stuff on the West Coast. This, of course, was in New York. And, yeah, I mean, so really this association with Miles Day,

which would go on be super fruitful for years even during it's like why are we talking about miles davis he's not on this record but this kind of became the backdrop for herbie um he'd already made a couple of records on blue note and between this time of hooking up with miles and brian isles of course but then it comes to maiden voyage sort of his yeah um would we say his classiest aquatic project ever recorded by herbie haircut i don't aquatic project it is but there was this aquatic era era I'm going to read you that it was it was a aquatic era I read you that it was was, yeah. It was the age of Aquarius, perhaps. I want to read you because Herbie Hancock, okay, first of all, shout out to liner notes. Can we get back to the days of this? Bro. You know what I'm saying? You were not lying. Look at that. You know, we'll have to get back to musicians learning how to read. That'll be one thing. But you don't want to attach yourself to that. Shots fire. No, I just want to read the beginning of the main liner notes are great written by Nora Kelly, but Herbie has his own little thing at the beginning.

The sea has often stirred the imagination of creative minds involved in all. spheres of art. There still exists an element of mystery which surrounds the sea and the living aquatic creatures which provide it with its vital essence. Atlantis, the Sargasso Sea, giant serpents and mermaids are only a few of the many folkloric mysteries which have evolved through man's experiences with the sea. Hold up. Didn't Herbie grow up in Chicago on Lake Michigan? What are you talking about? Lake, I'm going to say. He must have read a lot because he wouldn't get all that from the lake. This music attempts to capture its vastness and majesty. The splendor of a sea-going vessel on its maiden voyage,

the graceful beauty of the playful dolphins, the constant struggle for survival of even the tiniest sea creatures, and the awesome destructive power of the hurricane, nemesis of seaman. That's Herbie Hancock. Somebody was just reading Moby Dick. You know what I'm saying? Age 24, but I mean, you know,

making that connection is that kind of a setup. I remember when I first, like, got into Herbie and got this record. It wasn't the first time I'd heard Herbie. But, like, I remember reading the liner notes and being like WTF. Like this was really, you know, this was an atmospheric, this is a concept album,

which wasn't really being done a whole lot. It was a little bit on Blue Note. Certainly some prestige stuff in a way. Incredible playing. We're going to have a lot of fun with this today. I love this record. I also love this record. I have a long history of loving this record.

This is one of the first jazz albums I ever bought. I think it was in at least the first 10 that I bought because, you know, you have friends who are like, check out Herbie Hancock, check out Baden Voyage, check out Imperion, I love this record now, the older I get and the more I've listened to, you know, this is the Miles Davis quintet without Miles, essentially, with Freddie instead of Miles from that era, with George Coleman and Ron Carter and Anthony Williams, and Freddie Hubbard is on the trumpet roll, which I think it's a whole other thing. Yes.

Just replacing Miles in that chair or using someone else besides Miles, even with the whole band the same around, that trying. Freddie Halbert has such a distinct sound that I think to me, it really makes this album something special. It's like when you get to hear, or it's like when you get to see, like, one of your favorite, like, baseball players that you've always liked, and they come to your team. Right.

And then all of a sudden, they're, like, playing first base, and they're the cleanup hitter, and you get to watch them at bat for the first time. You're like, what is this going to be like? You know? So I love this. I also am fascinated with the fact that Herbie Calls Maiden Voyage the tune Maiden Voyage, the best song that he's ever written,

he's written so many incredible compositions. Incredible, like dozens and dozens that we could play off the top of our heads because there's so many of them, they're all part of the jazz canon. And the fact that he picks Maiden Voyage, which is perhaps his most simple, or at least up there,

with most simple melodies and chord progressions and forms, I think says a lot. Yeah, and the most complex thing, about it is just played one time and repeat it and that's the rhythmic pattern and we're going to get into sort of the genesis of that that's the thing that kind of holds it all together as you say harmonically

very interesting with all these suscords but not a lot of them the melody super simple but beautiful let's take a little bit of listen to it a little acoustic gander the first track on the album yeah maiden voyage Tony's already like loosening it up establishing the looseness is what I was thinking

exactly the phrasing the phrasing together. Freddy George Coleman, Freddie, how are you? So relaxed, too. Intonation is spot on, yeah. Phrasing is spot on. And it's got this

floating, lilting thing. And Herbie and Ron are just holding that rhythm. Bridge, dynamics. Listen to this, looking at this picture, I was just like... It captures you. It really captures you. It's a hoby on Lake Michigan. That's Herbie on a Hobie, Lake Michigan. Not probably not. Could be.

Herbie on a hobie. So that last A-Sec? This is ABA form. Expansive with that softball. The great George Coleman. Still with us. Yes. I think he's 90, I believe.

Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. He's 29 on this record. Oh. Herbie's copy. Oh. Okay.

So... Great solo, by the line. I think this might be... We might need to have a new category or a new... listing, a little offline listing of perfect solos. I think that that's not the only way to make a great solo is to do it perfectly, but I think that was kind of a specialty of George Coleman. Now, what do I mean by perfect?

I mean, there's nothing where you could be like, oh, he tried to do this, but he didn't quite get it, but he went to something else cool, or he kind of like, you know, took him a second to get in there. So there's the danger with the perfect soul And I've definitely fallen to this trap Where it's like antiseptic sounding Yeah, of course Or it's just like simplistic or you're not really

But he's going for stuff Blah, but there's nothing There's just like everything is placed Like he crafted this or played the phrase And then really sat and went and wrote for an hour Let me come up with the next phrase Now he didn't This was just straight through

And there's actually some alternate takes on here That you can explore And he was a master of doing different kinds of solos. Now, did he never make a mistake on other things? Yeah, maybe a little bit here and there. But I mean, George Coleman has been known as like a master and not coming out with a perfectly uninteresting solo. It's super interesting. He's going for stuff. He just had that imagination, the agility, his harmonic knowledge and like ways of manipulating or kind of weaving in and out on these sus-cords with the bebop vocabulary, but it's still being very modern. And then, of course,

you know, intonation, his tone, is phrasing the dynamics off the charge. just in that brief solo, which I believe it's just one chorus, isn't it? I think it's, no, I think it's two. Maybe two courses. But he shows us like all these different kinds of phrases. Yeah. Right?

There's like, there's a change-up pitch. There's a fastball. I don't know why I'm doing so many baseball metaphors today. But there's all of these different kinds of textures that he's giving us in that solo. It's all very relaxed, all very melodic, very lyrical. Yeah. And just adding to like the atmosphere of what is already a very atmospheric

song. Yes. Right? Yeah. But he's right in there. And then Herbie will play some, you know, choppy chord. Yeah. And then George Coleman will kind of answer with this like, and he'll do these like flourishes. And then he'll do this like you know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like this straight bebop-ish line and then these long tones and

all with an incredible sound too, by the way. Like underrated sound on that tenor saxophone. Beautiful sound. Beautiful, gorgeous sound. But it's like his whole plank. Like wouldn't you say his intonation and his sound kind of perfect too. Yeah. Like some people, like a knock on it could be that it's too perfect.

Like, where is the grit or the, but like the way that he improvises and tells the story, that is where the grid is. Like, that's where the rub is. Like, that's where the interest to it is. Because it's not just, you know, boring phrases perfectly executed one after another. Like, it all kind of links together.

Like you say, it was like this one course. Like, that's the best thing. I think it might even be more than two choruses. I'm not sure. But it felt like, that's what you want a great soul to feel. like is one chorus. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's not like a kid. And actually some quibble bits on a couple of these tracks here, some folks might be playing a little long, you know. I don't hear about that in a minute. All these tracks are long. I mean, Maiden Voids, this is eight minutes long. Yeah.

But I mean, in terms of George Coleman's playing, like, I think every note has its place. It's just perfect. And it's just interesting. And that way of playing is not for everybody. Freddie's not a perfect player because he's going for stuff. He's cacking. I mean, he's very, very technically astute, especially on this record. So it's not to say that, like, he's falling short.

It's just different. And that variety, that diversity, I think is great. But Freddie is always on the high wire. For us. He's doing it for us. Like, Freddy is a trapeze artist. He's taking risks. He's flying through the air.

He's going for it. He is an incredible musician, technically. So he's able to pull off almost everything he does. But you're right. There's something a little bit, I think, a stroke of genius of having George Coleman start off this whole album. Yes, yeah. And I mean, the thing is, like, it's crazy

because George Coleman's going for stuff too. It's just, he's pulling it all off. Effortlessly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's just talk a little bit. And then we're going to later on get into the, into Freddie Solo, because I think that might show up as an apex moment from one of us.

It's an incredible moment. Yeah. Herbie Solo, too. Yeah. But they all work together. You know what I mean? For these eight minutes. Like, we can pick them apart.

And like, I'm saying we all works together. We're not listening to them all together. That's your homework to do the most beautiful, glorious homework for our dear listeners. but I would say that like you take this kind of solo and then you take Freddie's solo and then you take Herbie solo it's that's the whole journey that's the whole aquatic aquatic dream that Herbie puts together

but it really starts from this this rhythm yeah and that continues throughout they never leave that it never goes danga dang they don't go to a walking thing like this is going throughout it

so yes there's the harmony too and just like to nerd out a little bit to jump back into the nerd nirk for a second those are all suscords every single chord on here and that just means uh you don't have to be able to play piano or whatever to understand this it's just it's that sound it's that floating it's not minor um although it does go to kind of some minory suss type of stuff too but it's got this nebulous kind of feel that floats and gives the improviser and the player it's optimistic but it's a little bit forlorn too maybe It's unsettled.

It's unsettled, but not in a, well, in the bridge, it gets to a little bit of... It's not a disturbing way. It's like unsettled in the way that, you know, a watercolor is unsettled. But there's no defined line. Right. It's not, and like this album cover kind of... Yeah. It's like that.

It's a little bit out of focus, but it's beautiful, right? There's a way you could look at it and also be a little sad, right? It's beautiful, but you're also a little bit like, yeah, but what is life really? Right, because it's not major... It's major-ish, right? But it's just for listeners, it's like harmony. That's the beauty of, like, harmony. What can these different chords evoke?

If we jump into the bridge, it gets a little bit... Nope, can't jump there. My bad. So jumping to the bridge. Still suss, right? But getting a little bit... All these chords are sussed. Yeah.

But Freddy's note here. Minor suss. Yeah. And the way that, you know, Tony's accenting... But then... back to a little optimism. So the C's got a little bit unsettled for a second. Let's not discount that we've got these sort of unsettled watercolor kind of chords,

but the melody itself is just 5-1-1. It's like the fundamental tones of the key. Yeah. 5-1, like da-da-va-da-va-va-da-da-da-va-da-da-da-da-va-do-do-do-oo, right, which is the five of the next chord. Exactly. It's like really grounds it, which is sometimes it's the opposite, where you just got like the one chord

and the melody's doing interesting stuff on the nine or these like colorful tones of the scale. But this is the opposite. The melody is like on the one. And the chords themselves are these ambiguous suscords. It's a very well-balanced song. It's like one of Herbie's, as we talk about simplest songs, like his biggest hit song standards

that people love to play are super simple. But when you look at the architecture and stuff, like this is great jazz for musicians and for the masses. This will always be in my repertoire. And I know it can be kind of like a drag at a jam session to call Maiden Voyage because it can get out of hand. It can get out of hand. You can have people doing 10 choruses of this.

And people are messing it up too. People don't know how to treat it sometimes. Right. It's like, so what? Or Mr. PC or, sorry, no impressions. Like the modal tunes where it's like if you don't know what you're doing. Right. Keep it short.

Right. But it looks like on the lead sheet, it looks so easy that a lot of people play it. And like the diverging, you know, the melodies in you. unison between trumpet and saxophone on the A sections. It's the AABA form, but the bridge, they diverge, right? That's so important. And people don't do that at jam sessions. They're just like playing it together or whatever. That's, when you have a simple tune like this, the details matter. No the parts. There's not a lot of them. You know what I mean? No the parts. Exactly. Learn her. Well, I like that. You got dogmatic thing. I occasionally do. Also, take the time to learn

Herbie's voicemys here. They're not complicated. They're easy to hear. You know, piano sounds not the greatest, as we'll talk about later. Oh, really? But you can transcribe these voicings pretty good. Right. So, okay, this tune came to Herbie in January of 65 on a flight to Los Angeles. He was actually going out to record with the Miles Davis Quintet. They would become ESP, one of their great kind of early, well, sort of beginning of the mid period of this great quintet with Wayne Shorter on saxophone now, no longer George Coleman. And they had some gigs and, you know, they were going to kind of try out some of this new music. And Miles told everybody in the band, bringing the tunes that you have, right? And so when he was on the plane,

he had this idea for a tune, and it was based around this rhythm with a Suss Corps. It was like, and he's on the plane, and he's like, oh, I'm going to write it down on it. I love that rhythm. He, like, and he, like, oh, this is going to be great.

Then he went to sleep. And then he got up off the flight. He was all excited, and then he got to the studio. Then he was like, where's the rhythm? And he couldn't remember the rhythm. Oh, no. And he's like, oh, well,

but it's Herbie Hancock. He's got a lot of really good ideas. He's like another idea we'll come. Yeah, exactly. So that's part of the reason they didn't record the tune at that session. But a couple months later,

that was January and March, they did record it. And the way that he remembered it was they did a tune called 80, what was it called 81? Yeah. Yeah, written by Ron Carter. He did bring it to the session.

And towards the end of that track, so this is like, this is like the end of the melody. The killing tune. Yeah. You know, like a lot of the song. stuff during this period there was kind of this nebulous fade out where they're just live with the rhythm section.

Listen to what Ron Carter's doing here too. Sound familiar? Yeah. Yeah. So when they went into this and Herbie's playing that rhythm, he was like, oh, that's the rhythm, but he still wasn't sure what it was from. So apparently he went in there listening back and he's like, oh, that's the tune I left on the airplane.

And so then he came up with, but then even with that, it was just that. I wonder what Ron Carter would say about that. I wrote that too. Well, he definitely wrote the bass line, and you can hear him playing it there. I just want to take a brief detour on Maestro Ron Carter for a second. Because just hearing that and realizing how much of Maiden Voyage is coming out of Ron's base in 81.

Of course. And how many countless baselines have we talked about this, where Ron is basically writing some of the most memorable parts of these compositions in the studio for these guys, for everybody that he's playing with. Well, remember how we first met Mr. Ron Carter was when we did a podcast about the greatest bass lines of all time and somehow like three of the top seven happened to be...

It's like four of seven. Four of seven. We're Ron Carter bass lines. We're Ron Carter playing the baseline. I'm probably creating many of those as well. But this is how impactful a great baseline can be to your song and just listening to Maiden Voyage and then listening to that ending of 81. Yeah, it's Herbie's playing that rhythm.

But you immediately hear Ron Carter go like, boom bum bum bum bum, boom. Like a very similar thing he's going to do on Maiden Voyage. but I'm just always blown away by how much of an impact that musician specifically, Ron Carter, has had on all the music he's been a part of. And oftentimes doesn't, he's not going to get the glory as in the base chair that other musicians might,

but he's so important. Right. So the other part of this with the melody and being so simple that came together. So he had that rhythm, he had this sauce kind of thing. He was commissioned to write a commercial for Fabergergerger. Remember them? Brute by Fabergeet.

Fabergeet. Faberge Cologne. Okay. Right, right. Ode Colon, right? And, you know, so he knew it had to be something really simple melodically. But he didn't want to, and he knew he couldn't do like, ding, thing, like, jazzy, swinging stuff, or even like kind of, kind of tuk-tac-tac-tac-cuh.

So he wanted to come up with some sort of a groove. So that was really the impetus for it, for the Maid Voyage groove. And then... So this was for a commercial. Yes, it was for a commercial originally written. You know, too snobby out there. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Jazz musicians, you know, don't, like, when you get the call for something, don't be like,

I'm too good for that. Yeah, I'm just saying, Herbie's writing like... He's 24 years old. Artistic classics here for Fabergerje. For Faberjeet, Colon ads. It was some good ass cologne, probably. Probably.

Back then, probably there was all sorts of stuff that would give you rashes. Hell yeah. But give you hookups, too. Hookups and rashes. Smell great with, like, palm all cigarettes. Oh, what a time.

Well, we were both born in the 70s, by the way. We don't know what we're talking about. But the idea was, yes, we had the melody, and then he had that other kind of bridge part. But you know, the commercial stuff. Are they even going to go there? but he couldn't figure out how to finish the tune. And so, like, the night before the recording session,

or before it was due, he couldn't wrap his head around how to end the song. He got frustrated and gave up and went to bed. His then girlfriend, Gigi, who he's been married to shortly thereafter, been together for many years. Incredible woman, his partner. She kicked him out of bed because she was like,

did you finish the tune? He's like, no, no, no, go finish the tune. Go get that fabulous. Yeah, get it to me. Yeah, get it together. So, begrudgingly, he went back to the piano. Suddenly it struck him. The first two chords should be the last two chords.

And that's how you got to that A-A-B-A form. Beautiful balance with it. And it kind of, and it sort of rolls together. And that's why it feels like, you don't have to know the A-A-B-A form, but that's why it feels like it's never ending, right, the whole thing. So that's it. Amazing. In fact, they even called it before he came up with the whole concept for the record,

Made in Voyage. They just called a TV jingle. That was how he named it. So we've got, for the second track, Peter, we've got another nautically themed tune. Yeah. In fact, we've got a couple here on this album. But we've got, I have the hurricane.

Now, this to me is like, this is the burner. Yeah, this is the burner for sure. On the album. And this has got some interesting nerd nook stuff in it, too, that our friend Jeffrey Kieser's talked about with some of those voicing that Herbie plays, the triple diminished voicing, as it's called. Right.

But this is also a standard. This is something you've got to know. This is standard. And this is good because people don't call this a jam sessions if they can't really play because it's so hard. It's hard. Yeah. And it's actually a minor blues, but it's got a vibe too. I mean, you've got to know the part to play it.

Yeah. That's that triple diminished chord. Lock in. Yeah. Oh, swinging. So this. Just Tony dancing on that ride. Tony. And the way Freddie started that, so that whole first chorus was kind of like, I'm just, I'm not really in it yet.

I'm just, I'm warming up into it. Yeah. And he starts building. It's like stacking. You guys just. get that swing together. Yeah. I'm going to get in on it.

Yeah. Okay. So we're going to just check out a little bit because you were talking about Herbie's voicing. Yeah, I love where this is going. Those are so crunchy. Beautiful voicings, though. Balance is incredible on the chord.

And then we're talking about Tony swinging, dancing, right? I mean, yeah. I can't think of a more influential ride symbol than Tony Williams. Right. Some of great. Here the bass drum. Boom. So soft. A little feather. Yeah. Myestro. Man, the hookup of Tony Williams and Ron Carter on this kind of swing.

Of course, doing all the time with Miles Davis quintet during this period. But check that out. Yeah, the greatest. The greatest battery. Yeah. Oh, dropping bombs. Spitting fire. Yeah. Oh, the swag.

Swagger. The swagger. He's got swag on. What a sound. Oh. Bitt. Oh, come on. All the pieces come together, right? Freddie. Right to George.

George Coleman, such a great player. Catch him while you can. He's still out here doing his thing. Incredibly, you know, 90 years old plus. This was interesting because on this record, George Coleman is the old guy. He's 29. Everybody's in their 20s on this record,

except for one. Tony Williams. He's 19. Stupid. Yeah. So crazy. Herbie's 24, Ron Carter's 27, George Coleman 29, Freddy's 26. So to put it in perspective, Miles Davis, who's kind of looming over this whole record and this whole band,

38 years old. So almost like a different generation, certainly from Tony, you know what I mean? That's really interesting. And it's great that you brought up Miles on this track specifically because this is, I think, the most Miles-y. Yeah. You know, plug-nickel style track on the whole album. But how different Freddie plays from how Miles plays, right? The sound itself is like almost a different instrument.

Right. And then, of course, like, all of Freddie's language is completely, it's a whole different approach than what Miles does. Right. And it's just beautiful, really beautiful. Yep, yep. All right, so let's go on and just listen to a little bit. I mean, this whole record, it's just like the tracks are long, but they're so well balanced. Tracks three and four are kind of known as the weird tracks, and a lot of people skip over them.

But I think if you have a... I wouldn't know what you're talking about. Well, look, this is the thing. they kind of bridge between the A side and the B side. And so Maiden Voge is the first track and Dolphin Dance the last track. Incredible. The second track. Like those are like the standards.

Those are the most, I think, listener friendly, wouldn't you say? 100%. Yeah. Maiden Voyage is like the first Herbie Hancock song most people learn besides maybe watermelon or chameleon. Yeah. But then dolphin dance is like once you learn how to sort of like, as a musician, when you're learning how to navigate changes,

that's the one the musicians love. Yeah. Because there's a lot of meat to sink your teeth into a dolphin dance. We'll hear in a minute. Absolutely. It's one of those tunes that teaches you a lot just to learn the tune up about how to improvise. But the two interior tracks, Little One and Survival of the Fittest, are really cool. They're really weird.

They're really long. I mean, Survival of Fittance is over 10 minutes. Excellent. The little one is like nine minutes long. But Little One is interesting because they recorded this in January of 65 on ESP with Miles Davis with this exact same group except without the horn player. Well, with different horn players. Miles Davis and Wayne Shorter instead of George Coleman and Freddie Hubbard.

So let's just listen a little bit first to that version because two months later they recorded it on this record with this band. So this is a little one from Miles' ESB, of course, Herbie as well. Driving the train. Okay, so that's January. This is May. This is May. No, March.

Pressional is incredible choice. Freddie, it's just a different way of playing it, but it's the same tune, right? It's the same spirit. Oh, Tony. Yeah, so, like, I remember when I first heard this, too, it was always like, you know, with the aquatic thing. It was like, I always pictured, like,

being at the bottom of the ocean, like where it's just totally pitch black, and there's maybe some little glistening, fluorescent fish that ate something radioactive, perhaps. Steve Zizu-esque, yeah, you know. But, I mean, this is such an atmospheric record. It's such a cool thing. So I encourage everybody, you know,

At least when you have some time, don't skip over a little one and survival of the fittest is fantastic. It's got, let me just, I know this wasn't on the original playlist, but it's pretty killing. Oh, he's killing. Who was the MVP of the record? Ron Carter.

I'm sorry to think of it, Ron Carter. I'm sorry to think of Ron Carter. It's Ron Carter. It's Ron Carter on most things Ron Carter's on. There's so much great, crazy Tony stuff on here out of time. I mean, he's 19 years old. This is crazy. It's so awesome.

Definitely worth a listen. It's not like a, like you don't, oh, man. It's not a skippable. track by any means. This is just long and takes it into some very, like, Maiden Voyage is a cologne ad. Yeah. And this is not. I know. And that's Herbie Hancock, Brad. He's taking you on a journey, you know. So that's the fourth track. That's the first track on the second side as well, which is super interesting. And then all kind of leads us to dolphin dance, which, you know,

as you said, is probably the song that musicians probably most love. And maybe just general listeners as well. It's so beautiful. Interesting fact that you brought up was the inspiration for this song, and I think this was from his biography. He certainly has talked about this was Count Basie's shiny stockings. Let's take a listen to that. You can kind of hear it. I can imagine there wasn't functional, as much functional harmony here.

Right. It went into some different places. This was 1957. You know, so Herbie would have been a teenager. This part here is specific. Basically. A whole step.

A whole step, right. Yeah. Which is just like a three, six in this, but then they change keys. Right. So that, I think, is the dolphin dance inspiration. But I think, I think you're right. And I think Dolphin Dance is the track from this. I mean, Maiden Voyage, I might have just switched my desert islands, too, because

Dolphinance, I think, I know Herbie says Maiden Voyage is his favorite of his compositions. But I think Dolphin Dance overall might be my favorite Herbie Hancock composition. I think it's brilliant melody. I think it's a very unique form. Very unique form, very well-balanced. Got some weird stuff in there. It's got some beautiful... Like, when I say well-balanced,

it's got some just beautiful way. We're going to listen. The melody is gorgeous. Right, but it gets weird. It does get weird. It gets a little weird. Let's check it out. Going back to some suss,

jumping back to the first track. It's going on a journey. That's some iconic comping right there. Having these big pedal point sections in the middle of the tune, going down a whole stuff. They're just shiny stockings. Right.

They're in octas, right? The melody. This is the way they phrased the melody together, left and right. Here's the weird part. What is that chord? I know. And then they just go out. That was like cocky line.

Yeah. Swinging. He's playing swagaliciously right now. Swagaliciously. Like you can just see you know how I'm Freddie. His soul may be a perfect soul up until a certain point. Oh, let's talk about it. I mean, it's so, oh.

Are you trying to send Freddie the Berkeley College of music right now? No, I just, I feel like he took an extra chords, perhaps. But I don't know. This is a long form, too. It is a long form. Herbie's comping throughout this is a match for this. This stuff at the end, that's some iconic. It's hard when I'm playing this song and soloing to not try to match Freddie's energy.

I know. Like when it comes back around, I always want to do one of those like, like, yeah, blah, da-da-da-da, kind of blind. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, anyway, Freddie. I shouldn't have said that in terms of, but like, to me, it could have ended at the first chorus. But then Freddie's just, he's playing great stuff. Like I say, like these tracks are long.

Yeah. You know what I mean? But they're like, the form is long. The tracks are long. But the playing is at such a high level. Like if you're in the right mood to be listening to it in this way, it's so rewarding. Let's get into some categories, Peter. So Desert Island tracks.

What do you go? Well, I've got this one. I've got dolphin dance. Because if I'm on a desert island, some little dolphins dancing by. this is certainly a vocative of that. I think the playing's great. It's so beautiful. Like, you know,

is it the most challenging stuff on here? Maybe not. Is it even the most beautiful and simple? Maybe that's Made in Voyage. It's a great balance, though. But to me, this is the one that's like, I can just listen to it. I agree.

I had Maiden Voyage, but I think after listening to both here today, I'm going to switch it to Dolphin Dance. And I deserve the right to change my mind. I mean, you can't go wrong with either one of those. What's your Apex moment for this album? I think it's Freddie on Maiden Voyage and this particular part.

Okay, so in his solo, there's a bunch of great stuff. Freddie Hubbard's solo. And I apologize for jumping to the middle, but I want to get right to the apex. He's already gone up high and come down. It's already come down a little bit, yeah. And you think, oh, there's no more left, right? Oh, well, percolating. Freddy's always got something to take.

But this next part. Oh, yeah, yeah. And right here. And then he's just, he's like. He's talking. He's like, I got you. He's shouting, and he's talking. I feel like my uncle just told me a story.

Yeah. You know? So great, so great. Yeah, so to me, that's kind of the one, you know. Ah, stop, stop it. I have, I've just realized we haven't listened to a single Herbie Hancock solo yet on this podcast. But my Apex moment is actually Herbie's second chorus in Dolphin Dance. And I wonder if we could just, we might listen to all of that solo, that piano solo.

but his second chorus specifically, I think, is where the whole album Apex is from. Yeah, let's get to it. End of George Coleman solo here. Yeah. These last two pedal points. George ended a little early. Oh. What I love about Herbie's playing on this album, and every Herbie album is, but especially

his own albums, he's so connected with his compositions. Yes. He plays very thematically. Yes. You're going to hear the tune. in his improvisation. Deeply connected. It's so, so great.

Piano and the sound, not so great, but pianist? Oh. I mean, this is a great chorus, but I think it apex is at the start of the next chorus. Oh. Got that pedal point now. The bass is stand on one note while the chords change. I'm back for another chorus, and this is the event. So much classic Herbie vocabulary.

He's so swinging, dude. Oh, and that just gives Tony license back and forth. Loose. The ends and outs of the storm so well. Man, it's like waves coming in. They don't have to build, and they're not afraid of going to just one apex moment. I think Freddie really set the tone for it on here, too.

Yeah, so... Incredible. I think that solo, I would have put that as the best solo on this record, and maybe one of Herbie's greatest souls of all time had it not been for the piano sign. And we're going to talk about that in a second. And that doesn't take away...

I'm just saying, like, how it's recorded. Not how it's recorded, like how it ends up being. It's so, his playing is so amazing that it's still there. I don't want to, like, put a wah, wah, on this or anything. But I do feel like the quality of the sound and how it's captured and presented on the recording does, is a big part of the solo. You know what I mean? Like, his playing, I mean, Herbie did everything he could do.

And I know some people love that sound, but to me, that keeps it from getting to that point. Because I'm a pianist, I can imagine, I've heard Herbie live. Let's talk about it. I can fill in the blank. So this is a Rudy Van Gelder recording. And Rudy Van Gelder recordings notoriously have what I call the hollow piano sound. There's this like curve somewhere in the EQ

where they're taking out a big bunch of the meat of the piano sound. And so you get this sound on the piano that sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like water drops plunking. Yeah. Or like it's like a, it's like there's like a glass bell around the piano or something.

There's a weird, it's a weird effect that happens specifically. on Rudy Van Gelder recordings. Now, he does that to make way for things like the bass and the drums, and those usually sound incredible. I mean, on what we just heard, like, if the piano had sounded as good and as accurate and as full as the drums on here, that would have been some of the most, it's still some of the most amazing playing. I mean, it's not like it's that bad that it ruins, it's not, but. Especially in this time, before anything digital, you have this, like, sonic spectrum of sound, and I'm not the person to go on a deep dive on this, but you do have to make compromises if you want to bring one, instrument out or the other because they're in sonic competition.

Competition, that's right. So they'll be in regions in the same area where they're kind of canceling each other out. So oftentimes you'll EQ one or the other, or you can do panning or you can do different things in the mix. But in this case, Rudy Van Gelder, the piano also just has all of these overtones that are swirling around all the time. So it's a very, it takes up a lot of sonic ground. And so Rudy Van Gelder's solution was to like notch out a bunch of full parts. I know you... I just don't think that's the solution.

And, I mean, I think you have records. Like, this is what keeps some of these records from being on that, like, better than K-O-B to me, in a way, is because of the piano sound. Because I... The K-O-B sound, six years before this. Yeah. Incredible.

Yeah, everything. And you can't say, oh, well, they had to compromise on drums. No, nothing's compromised. It's not... Look, it's not that huge of a deal. But to me, it's just, it's shocking, like, how great... That's the other thing. Like, when you have the sound so well dialed in,

I mean, like, that Tony sound... It's crazy. that, you know, George Coleman and Freddie Hubbard, he's got them heavy pan left and right, but so beautifully, so like when you're hitting that A tier, S tier, what's the highest tier? S tier, yes, sir.

Boomer. Boomer. Okay, boomer. S tier on everything else. Like, if you're just kind of like mid on everything, then this piano sound would be fine. But it's like, it's, it's amplified to me, a little bit of the deficiencies by how great he nailed everything else.

And it's interesting because it's very, divisive. A lot of people love this sound. Yeah. A lot of people like search for this sound to get like that. It's a bespoke sound for sure. It's a very specific. I think once a sound has been around for a long, and it's on such great music, like these classic albums, that's right. It just becomes like, oh, that's the sound of classic Blue Note albums. Right. Classic Van Gelder recordings, and we should pay respect to how good those albums are, and people just search for that sound. But you're right, it's not the best. Yeah. It's not the greatest representation, especially on a pianist album. I know. I know. I know.

Okay, bespoke... But incredible solo. Good, good pick on that. Bespoke Spotify playlist. What do you got? Jazz Aquatic. Or aquatic jazz. The jazz aquatic. Yeah, I don't know what else will be on that playlist. With Herbie Zizu. Okay, great. I have hollow-ass pianos. Actually, that is not what you have.

Do you want to... What I have? Wack-ass piano sound. Wack-ass piano sounds. Well, either one. It's all good. What's up next? I mean, Empry and Isles, the record before this. That's what I have to. ESP, that they record a couple months before. Absolutely. Yeah, those are good ones. Great fits.

Yeah. Quibble bits, I think we both have the same one that we just talked about. Yeah. The piano sound. Don't let that stop you from enjoying the record. And you know what? If I'm wrong, I'm right. You know what I mean? There's no wrong or right. Like I said, it's subjective. The sound. It's an artistic choice.

Snobometer. I have three. It's, for a jazz album, it's, I think, very accessible. There are a couple tracks that are very stumpy. Exactly. That's why I went with five. Because half of the record... You always go with five. No, I mean, in terms of number of minutes, half of the record is 10 and half the record is one. I will concede that. That is a little, maybe it's a four.

I'm like, finally, I, you got to. You got it. I think you know. Better than K-O-B. No. No. But you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to plant this flag in the sand. Line in the sand, flag in the ground.

I'm combining both those metaphors. I'm going to say that, like, if the piano sound was better dialed in, for me, and like, like, you're right, it's a subjective thing. I think this record would have been at or possibly better than K. in some ways. You think if it sounded like KOB, it would be closer to. Well, no, no, it didn't have to sound like that, but just, you know, if the sound...

But let's say it did sound like KOB. Yeah. The instruments were dialed in like KOB. It's hard to say, but I think the sound is making such a big impact on me more than when I was younger when it was like, oh,

what is Herbie playing on this? What is McCoy? It's like, that's part of it what they're playing, but it's also how is it presented? It's a huge deal. Yeah. Accoutrements.

I put eight, but now that I'm looking at this, I'm going to have to say nine. I got 10, man. I can't imagine a better... Man, you're so good at hit... Why do I not hit the 10? Because I'm always like...

If that's not a 10, especially with... I love that we have the albums for this, which I think we're going to try to have on every episode, the actual vinyl album, because the back makes it a 10. Herbie's weird sequest. I know, it's true.

Narrative here and the liner notes from Nora Kelly. Is it a perfect album cover? Because that's why I'm afraid to give it a 10. If everything's a 10... This is an amazing album cover. It's a 9. It looks like how the music sounds. Yeah.

And then the back with the old school blue note fonts here. It's just perfect. So every blue note records at 10, then. No, not true. At this point is. Okay. We'll say 9.5. We're going to average it out as 9.5.

Yeah. Absolutely. Until next time, you'll hear it.