You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - "Money Jungle" – Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Max Roach

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

What happens when you put three of jazz's biggest personalities in a studio for a day? You get Money Jungle: Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus and Max Roach. Can it work? Miles Davis hated it. Others revere it. And the story behind this album is WILD.It's perhaps the most tense album we've ever listened to. And this episode of You'll Hear It is possibly the most we have ever disagreed about an album! Listen for the music, the hot takes, or just to see what all the fuss is about. No matter your reason for listening to this episode, you'll never hear Money Jungle the same way again.-------------------------------Start your free Open Studio trial for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs:https://openstudiojazz.com/yhi-------------------------------Related You'll Hear It episodes:Mingus Ah Um: https://youtu.be/XYeRZ0Awui4Thelonious Monk Plays Duke Ellington: https://youtu.be/Z5YJr2iLG74-------------------------------About You'll Hear It:In this popular music series, Adam and Peter break down the greatest albums of all time. Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Joni Mitchell, D'Angelo: Jazz is the foundation of the most GENIUS music in recent history. These seasoned jazz pianists bring their deep musical knowledge to every joyful episode to help you hear the hidden qualities that make music AMAZING. You'll never hear music the same way again.-------------------------------Sign up for the You'll Read It newsletter for little known stories about the artists you love:https://youllhearit.com/newsletter -------------------------------00:00 - Money Jungle: Ellington, Mingus, Roach01:00 - Can This Record Work?05:06 - "Money Jungle": Mingus is Menacing!09:15 - What Was Really Happening That Day12:17 - Musical Context Leading Up to Money Jungle14:15 - "Fleurette Africaine": Stunning Bass Work17:00 - Must Great Artists Make Great Art? Not Always20:18 - Why Money Jungle Keeps Showing Up on "Greatest" Lists23:45 - "Very Special": Can This Song Win Over Peter?27:07 - One Week Later: Duke Ellington & John Coltrane29:32 - Adam's Hot Take: Duke's Magnificent Final Act36:43 - "A Warm Valley": That Piano Sound!39:35 - "Wig Wise": Sounding Like Monk. Can You Hear It?42:59 - We Don't Talk About This Enough In Jazz45:27 - "Caravan": Best Moment on Money Jungle48:18 - Or Is THIS the Best Moment on Money Jungle?52:25 - Want to Learn to Play Like Duke? Join Open Studio!55:55 - "Solitude": A Musical F-You to End the Album1:02:42 - Is This a "Emperor Has No Clothes" Situation?1:03:40 - Desert Island Tracks + Bespoke Playlists01:05:40 - Quibble Bits ... Do We Even Need to Ask?01:08:48 - How Snobby Is This Album?01:10:35 - What to Listen to Next01:11:18 - Have We Ever Disagreed This Much? Wrap-Up

Some called it ridiculous. Others say it's the greatest piano trio album of all time. You've got Charles Mingus, a powder keg of talent and temper, kicked out of Duke Ellington's band once for attacking trombonist Ronald Kese. You've got Max Roach, one of the best drummers who ever lived, an intellectual bandleader who demanded only the best from his side. And then there's Duke, a seemingly untouchable legend. Nobody told him what to do it.

All three of them in a studio, One day of recording It's money, Johnny. Does it work? I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music Explored.

Brought you today by Open Studio. Go to Open Studiojadogas.com for, oh, your jazz lesson needs, Peter Martin. Yes. Welcome into the show. Are you prepared for perhaps the most tense album we've ever, ever listened to? Yes, I am prepared.

You'll hear it podcast. Are you ready for this? I think I'm ready for it. This is a controversial record, I think. This is a very interesting record. It's a weird record. And I'm just going to go ahead and put it out there. Yeah.

This is not a great record. This is not your favorite. Well, not only is it not my favorite, for sure. I don't think that this is a great record. And I just want to kind of say that because I know that this is apparently a beloved record. One of our most requested records here on the You'll Hear podcast. This is, of course, Money Jungle by Duke Ellington, Charles,

Minkis and Max Roach. It is a veritable supergroup of jazz musicians who were around in the early 60s. This was released in February 1963, recorded in September, 1962, it's soundmakers in New York City on the United Artist label, although I think eventually it would move to Blue Note, is that?

Well, I think they got caught up by the whole EMI, Toshiba. So it was released. When I first heard this in the 80s, the, yeah, mid-80s, it was released on CD. Yeah. Actually, similar format to this With a couple of the alternate takes, not all of them

But on Blune. It was also remastered, I believe, and maybe even remixed, I'm not sure. And I just want to put it out there. I didn't mean to be harsh by saying, I should have said, I believe that this is, I don't think this is a great, but I'm open. And I'm excited to explore it with you and with our dear listeners.

And look, let's just put it out there. Not everything is supposed to be great to everybody. You know what I mean? Well, it couldn't possibly be. No, it couldn't. Although this podcast, is pretty much bad 1,000, as we know. But I think even, I think that one difficulty we have within the jazz world,

and this podcast is just about great music and exploring music together and celebrating music. Yeah, not just about great jazz. This is about great music that we love. Yes. And because this is a record that I know a lot of people love, it's important, right? Whenever something stands to test the time, it's not about, like, and we're going to pick it apart. I've got notes, my friend. But that doesn't mean that it's not, like, your opinion is just as valid as my opinion.

just because we're music podcasters or jazz pianos, I don't think that that gives us any more authority to say what somebody likes or not. But for me, I'm such a fan of all three of the artists that are on here. Well, that's it, is it? I mean, you nailed why it's even worth giving this album a shot in the first place

is because it is these three heavyweights. And, you know, Minkus and Max Roach are kind of in their prime right now. I mean, they're right in it. And we'll get to Duke Ellington and his later career. I have a hot take on this, actually. But I think this is some peak Duke Ellington. He's had many peaks, obviously, by this point.

I think he peaked a week later. Well, we could talk about that, for sure. But it's, to me, I really enjoy this album. This is not like a monthly listener for me. But I've been a fan of it since I was a teenager. And I come back to it occasionally because it's such an incredibly crazy document of a very tense day between three very larger-than-life personalities,

three mega-talent musicians. Big personalities. Big personalities. The question, does it work? I think that just kind of depends on what you're looking for as work. If you're looking for something that's just like toe-tapping, feels good, feels bright and shiny, this is not that. Yeah, but I'm going to start to push back a little bit on that.

Push it back. In terms of, yes, I mean, there's a lot of things. We don't always want happy toe-tapin. let's go back to the swing air it's not about that but i think that there is you know for me the production on this record the engineering is of such poor quality i would say somewhat objectively poor quality like the piano is not the recording is some of the worst i've ever heard of duke allington agree even going back to the 30s you know um the piano's out of tune now we could say well none of these are incredible artists it's like no i mean yes they're great artists but that

doesn't mean they're great artists every time. And I think it's part of our lionizing of these artists. We give it a disservice in jazz when we're like, the production doesn't matter. And I'm like, eh, it kind of does. Before we get too much further into it, let's listen to a little bit. This is the opening track, the title track, Money Jungle. Charles Mingus on the bass, Max Roach on the drums, do kill each on the piano. I do like the way this record starts. It's killing. I mean, it definitely sets the tone, right? It's just menacing. He is menacing. I don't know. I mean, that's just, that's the only word I can think of. Like his choices of what to play

He was a powder kick I mean this is like notoriously Kind of a A frighteningly angry musician Yeah Well and look Huge huge huge player I know but all that

It's an enormous artist but But I'm just saying music Even if you didn't know any of that I think we have to take the document for what it is Right so like the music as it unfolds But like he's menacing in terms of It's not only is he not

really supporting what's being played. I don't know, it just, like, those first 30 seconds are so great, and to me it just starts to fall apart. I feel bad because I'm talking over this, and I want people to judge it on their own. I mean, there's good stuff happening, obviously. So this whole album recording today, this is obviously a minor blues money jungle.

I mean, are they locked in? Is Charles Mingus and Max Roach as a rhythm section locked in? I don't think they are. And I think... There's just so much tension, isn't there? Well, I mean, tension is fine. I'm saying, are they locked in? Like, they're swinging.

It's not like there's only one way to swing, but they're playing a groove, and I feel like it's throwing, it sounds to me like they're throwing off. But is Nick is playing a groove? No. He'll leave that groove and go. I mean, he starts out at the beginning.

He's like, ding, dang, dang. But I mean, Max is swinging. He's menacing. I mean, what happened to, like, support the soloist? Hello? I don't think it's about that right now. Like, Duke's playing some nice stuff, but he can't, between the side.

of the piano and like what Mingus is doing. I mean, I think Max Roach is doing the best that he can. I'm not trying to blame this on Mingus. I'm just like, I don't get it. Like every time you kind of want to get it in there, it's like in terms of the groove. All right, so it should be said. It's a minor, like this other thing.

This is a 12 bar minor blues. It's not that you can't play it any way you want. That's fine. But the expectation when you start a record like this and Duke is playing the way he is, there's not there's one way the rhythm section has to play, but Max Roach is playing that

and like it's great that Mingus brings his thing to this but the tension is like there's no establishment of the groove outside of those first I feel like this cut and in some ways this album peaks at the first 30 seconds of this first track there's beautiful places they come in that there's some really

great moments yeah but I mean I don't know man we're always talking about like the first track sets the tone I mean again this is just to me if somebody listens to this and is like oh my God it's so inspiring that's Well, just for some context, there was a lot of attention at this session. So this is a one-day session. You know, Max Roach is complaining, apparently, about Mingus is playing to everybody that will listen during the session.

But Mingus kept playing louder and louder, almost defiantly, which is why I'm saying. Like, I think Charles Mingus had some just unresolved personal issues to some of this. These guys, by the way, I think had all played together in various combinations at some point. Like, you know, Mingus and... Mingus and Max Roach had both played with the Duke Ellington Orchestra when they were... At certain times, that's right. And famously, we talked about this in the Aham, Mingus Aham episode, that Mingus got kicked out of Duke's band.

Because they got to fight with Juan Tiesel, right? Composur of Caravan. And there were various stories about that. But even just a few years earlier, like seven years before this, Charles Mingus made a quartet record plus Max Roach. This is Haitian fight song. So they're playing together. It's not like they're like, don't like each other.

Right. You know what I mean? They're playing together. No, I mean, didn't Mingus recommend. Like Max Roots was the first, when he was talking to Duke Gallen. Maybe it was the other way around. That, I think Ming said, I want Max Rhodes. That's what's going to make this happen.

Absolutely. And Duke Gallatin was like, cool. And by the way, just a little bit of lead up for all of this. You know, I can't believe we would have to do this. But if you don't know, like, how we got here in the first place, you know, Duke Ellington was in his 60s at this point. He was 63 years old when he made this. He was one of the most famous musicians on the planet at that time.

And had been for the last 30, 40 years, starting with Now that's locked in. 1938. There's elements of this production that are superior to Money Jumbo. I agree. Don't mean to think if it ain't got that swing. Also, you might recognize this one. That's a better piano sound.

It's a Billy Strayhorn composition. Take the A-Train. Huge star, Duke Ellington. Max Roach came up playing is a generation, or maybe even a generation and a half, younger than Duke Ellington, came up playing with bebop musicians like Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell.

But famously, had a breakthrough with Clifford Brown. How would we not done this route? Can we sub this in today? We got to do this. Man, that drum sound... Oh, the production is Mercury. Superior, 10 years earlier, by the book.

Piano sound, Richie Powell. That's sunny? Or Harold Land. Oh, they're about to swing out. That's not in. No, it is. Okay. And I know what lovers of this record are saying to me right now.

Oh, okay, Boomer, you wanted to go back to just spang-a-lang a spang-a-lang. Yeah. Maybe. But there's some more context I want to put in here. So just a couple years before, Money Jungle, Charles Mingus has, he had been building his reputation for years and years. Again, came up playing bebop with some of those heavyweights, but started making his own albums, had the breakthrough. We did this last season, 1959's. Mingus, one of the most important jazz records.

Forest Parliament. Yeah. The production level. You should check out our episode last season for that one. Yeah, that was a fun. But you might remember on that album, Open Letter to Duke. The name of the track is Open Letter to Duke. So Mingus paying homage here to one of his heroes.

He was a massive, I mean, you hear it in his greatest, I mean, all of his music. Like, is there a bigger influence on Charles Mingus in terms of his compositions? than Duke Ellington? I don't think so. I don't think so. But just, again, in the lead-up to Money Jungle, you know, Max Roach had started making some really important music with a message. 1960s, We Insist.

We Insist. This is Tears for Johannesburg. This is a masterpiece, I think, We Insist, is unbelievable. This is three years before Money Jungle. I would love to listen to this with you at some point, too. It's great. Let's switch this one in today. All those sex, right.

It's a great record you play. I wanted to play Tears for Johannesburg because it does kind of like there is some DNA in this. It's around the same, you know, in relatively same time period for Max Roach. And the sort of vibes and I think the message and the sort of, I want to say like the sensibility of these three musicians was actually a lot closer than the tension in this album would make us believe was there. The next track is Florett-Africane. I mean, that's stunning bass work. It's amazing. Yeah.

Shout to the producer for not getting the piano tune. Sorry. It matters. Gleurette africane. Okay. Just gorgeous. I think it's gorgeous. I think it's great up into about 30 seconds before.

Okay, not even talking about the piano tuning. That's not anybody's fault that's playing on the record, but it is somebody's fault, and it is part of the whole package of it. It takes away from it. The piano sound is atrocious. It's atrocious. And Ming has been stunning what he starts with, but what he starts doing around here is like, if you listen to, of what he's playing all through like the rest of the track. I mean, yeah, he's playing some beautiful stuff,

but it's like very, it's very incongruous with what Duke is playing. Now, this is an incredible, this, I think was the first time he ever recorded this song. And this is a beautiful, this was originally called La Plu Belle Afrikan. It's one of, you know, Duke's not his most famous songs, but it's been covered a bunch really well.

It's a beautiful song. You know, Newsflash, but not only by 1962 was Duke a great composer, that was many years before. So like there's no quibble bit that I have with the compositions, which are all Dukes, except for Caravan. Juan Tiesel. Yeah. But I mean, these are all, and there's, I guess,

a whole story about that, how Max Roachshend. Mingus were salty because they were going to, you know, the plan was to share. But I just think that that track is, as beautiful as that song is this is not a great version of it after you get past about a minute and a half. I really love what Mingus does in the beginning of it. I agree.

It's an incredible choice. And also it's. But I mean, like this is the, thing. There's great moments on this record. These are great musicians. But I'm saying it's not like, we do a disservice if we say because it's great musicians, it doesn't matter what the production is.

It doesn't matter if they maybe for good reason, you know, because there were, there's some alter, not altercations, but whatever. Acrimony in the studio, that's fine. But then that doesn't mean, but I think it's to say, but they transcended all that and made a great record. No one's saying that, but

you have to admit, having three of, maybe the top 10 musicians of their eras on their instruments in the studio together and the fact that there is a story of there was acrimony in the studio and it's like, what is it gonna happen?

It makes it interest, but it doesn't make it great. It's like George Clooney and... Who's the Pretty Woman actress? Sorry, Julia Roberts. Yeah, yeah. They made a little movie a couple of years, both incredible actors, I would say, right? They made a movie together

a couple years ago on Netflix. I don't know if you saw it. I did see it, yeah. Did you think that was a great movie? Not a great movie. Right. But that doesn't mean they're not great And we could say, oh, but to have two of our generations...

Don't come for us, George in June. George Clooney's front of the pod, a friend of ours. But I'm saying like it was a romantic comedy. I don't remember the whole thing, whatever. It's on an island or something. Yeah, so you could say probably two of our... Best actors of this generation, especially for romantic comedies. So, of course, like, no one says, oh, that was great.

They're like, eh, it didn't quite come together. And I think it's okay. In jazz, in classical, perhaps, and maybe... maybe some other genres, but definitely in jazz, we have a problem with this. Like, if you, I think it's a disservice to tell people this is one of the 10 greatest jazz albums of all time. Who did that?

Well, I don't, I mean, I've seen it on a lot of lists. Oh my God, this shows up all the time. Yeah. You know, and it's not that like, well, in my opinion, it is, people do it because, I mean, yes, it's maybe a contrarian pick. I mean, Guilteous Charges, I did a whole YouTube video with 10 contrarian picks,

but they were all ones that I love. I feel like this is a record that people say they love because they get shamed into it a little bit. And I was a little bit one of those. I don't know if you get... So what's your history with this? When did you first listen to this? You sure about that?

You sure about that? I mean, I listened to this, like, when I... On CD it was recommended to me by Winton Marcellus, I believe. I mean, it was being recommended a lot around that time. I think he... I mean, he gave me some incredible record recommendations, and I'm pretty sure this is one of them. And it was just coming out on CD,

so there was a little bit of resurgence in that. And, um... Yeah, anyway. I also don't think we can just make a record important because we say it's important or because there's three masters and they got into a fight at the studio on the day and somebody stormed out.

That doesn't make a great record. It makes a great story. Makes a great story. Can I give you my take on this? Please. On why this makes these lists. First of all, I think that if you're of a certain sensibility, there is something interesting about hearing

what would these guys do in one day in the studio together. and just because it didn't come out in the way that you might expect, it's still kind of cool to hear, right? For sure. The idea of, if you're a fan of all three of these guys, which I am, it is interesting to hear their choices here.

And especially following Duke's lead. I love the idea. I mean, there's no getting around the story of... Who's following Duke's lead? Well, Max Roach kind of does. Well, that's what's so interesting is, what is Charles Mingus thinking? I know.

What is he thinking? But this is great... It's super intriguing. But this is what great art does. It doesn't have to be beautiful. It doesn't have to be beautiful. it doesn't even have to be like sound good this is an art record and this is like it makes you question

like what the hell is going on here and that's fun that is a great intellectual exercise now is does that make it a commercially viable album or whatever I mean does it deserve to be on these lists I think for some people the packaging is unbelievable it's one of the best titles of a jazz album ever money jungle is an incredible title of an album of a song the front cover black and white picture Duke you know, in his 60s.

Shout out jazz wax. Wax times. Our other two, you know, in the generation before, it's so beautiful. And I think that does a lot of heavy lifting for people's imaginations about what happens in this. But I will say, Peter, you are not alone, and you're in actually some very good company. Miles Davis hated it.

In 1964, Downbeat Magazine presented Miles with a few unnamed tracks and asked for his impression. They played caravan from Money Jungle, and he said he couldn't rate it, and record companies should be kicked in the air. ass for releasing it. He says, quote,

what am I supposed to say to that? That's ridiculous. You see the way they can fuck up music? It's a mismatch. They don't compliment each other. Max and Mingus can play together by themselves. Mingus is a hell of a bass player and Max is a hell of a drummer, but Duke can't play with him and they can't play with Duke.

I mean, that's, you know, hyperbole going over. But I mean, he's not wrong, is he? I mean, I just say he can't play. Of course they can play together. But I kind of agree with that, you know. Track three, very special. Oh, wait, can we, before we go to this? I love this tune.

Yeah, I like... By the way, this is like Take the Cold Train to Light. Totally, totally. You know, one of the thing about communication you were saying and about, you know, acrimony in the studio, I want to just point out, and maybe we can catch these as we go so that we don't have to listen to them all at the same time. But there's some very interesting things happen at the end of some of these tracks.

Yeah. I call, I'm convinced that they're a little musical F-U. to each other, which would make sense. And it's one of the most intriguing things. Is there one at the end of very special? I can't remember about... A very special ending? But Money Jungle there is.

If you want to maybe listen to the way that Money Jungle... All right, let's go to the very end of Money Jungle. Yeah. What do you mean by a musical FU? Well, I mean, just... Max wants to get the last worded, which is great. It just sort of... To me, this is one of the more interesting, intriguing.

Like, you talk about intriguing. Like, there's kind of musical in battle. What has happened? Max is like, done. Done. Stop! What is going on in here? That might not have been happening. Maybe there was a love fest.

But no. It sounds like that. According to all accounts, it was not a love fest. All right, let's check out very special. I love this tune, actually. Okay. This has a great F-U at the end, actually. It does.

I remember now. It really sounds like Mingus is throwing Duke off. Swinging. No, man, that's pretty good. This is something, this is not. A week later, the whole rhythm section is really swinging. It's true. You know, they're just, I'm not only to say just,

but they're playing over a 12-bar blues, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're not entirely. highly locked in. You know, I mean, Duke Ellington is, like, if you compare the way he's playing over this, to Bedebiddy, you know, with Coltrane in them. I'm not saying you have to play it the same way, but you're playing the same kind of tune.

I don't know, man. I like, I like what's going on here. Duke's playing better. It's a different fun. I mean, like. Well, the piano sounds way back. The piano sounds better, and that's all part of it. But, like, he just sounds more comfortable, which is fine.

I mean, there's always going to be different comfort levels. I mean, Duke, a little bit uncomfortable still is going to be great. I want to hear, hold on. I want to hear the FU, the musical FU at the end of this one, too. He's already starting it. You hear? Oh, that's a standard. So you mentioned what happened a week later.

But that track, like, they ended really abruptly. If you hear before this, it's just kind of like, gone. About a week and a half after they recorded this album, Duke Ellington, who, and I might go into a little tangent here, but Duke recorded with another musician who was a generation younger than him. Yeah. An album called Duke Ellington and John Coltrane. with Duke Ellington and incredible tenor saxophone as John Coltrane.

We listened to a little bit of that, and I think it's season 12, when we listened to that sort of cold train ballets thing. And the opening track on that is called Take the Coal Train, another blues, and it sounds like this. Very, very, like, very special-ish. So good. So you're right, though,

Duke Ellington on the Duke Ellington and John Coltrane album does seem a little more comfortable, well, a lot more comfortable than he does on Money Jungle, probably because... Would you say he sounds better? I would say he's playing more comfortably. He seems a little freer. I do agree with you that Mingus might be throwing him a little bit on some of this stuff.

As Mingus would throw anybody, honestly, with what he's doing. I think, too, and I don't want to just say it was just on Mingus, because if you accept that Mingus and Max Roach were not really locked in a lot of this, that's going to throw off the piano. The trio is such a... They would throw off anybody. Yeah, it's the three, but there is still that rhythm section, like if that thing isn't there.

There's a reason why Oscar Peterson always sounds swinging. A, he's Oscar Peterson, but always Ed Thinkpin and Ray Brown are always locked in. And look, the argument could be made that, like, Oscar Peterson never did, never put himself out on the ledge like Duke Allington did here. So that is, that's valid, you know, but then again, like, not everybody has to do everything. I'm just, like, because we have a comparison a week later and, like, a couple years before, with what I think for Duke Ellington to me is a much superior. Like, we're just talking about his playing. I mean, the compositions, I don't think there's different levels to this composition, but I've never heard like a bat. Like, these blues are some, like, like, he, I know he wrote some of these in the studio.

Of course. He could just do that. There was no rehearsal to be in this, by the way. There was no rehearsals. They were just going for it. Yeah, but he could do that, you know. Can I give you my Duke Ellington hot take? Yes.

So, you know, as we've gotten older, I don't know about you, but I've been paying attention to certain musicians now for their whole careers, right? So it's like someone like you or like Brad Meldow. I've known you since before you and I actually knew each other. or Brad Meldow or Herbie Hancock. I've known Herbie Hancock my whole life, essentially. And I've watched what he's done, by the way, I don't know if you know this. Herbie, amazing musician.

It's good. Incredible. Some of you have a playlist. Herbert Hancock, undeniably great. No, but it's interesting to watch people as they have the arc of, like, their initial popularity when they really hit, and then when the sort of culture shifts them out of the Zite guys to a new Zichai.

We talked about it with Sinatra. Remember? We talked about it was Sinatra. That was right around the same time. And then to see how they respond to that and what they do. And I'm going to put out my hot take on this entire album is that this is the start, or maybe the middle of a run, in Duke Ellington's last stage of his career,

or maybe, you know, penult to the, last, yeah, 10-ish years, that he does better than almost anybody. He shifts from being one of the most famous musicians in the world who owns the swing genre, who invents so many of the musical fingerprints that we all still lean on today, honestly, orchestration-wise, composition-wise, even just the setup of how a band is

owes a lot to Duke Ellington and his work in the 20s and 30s and 40s. But in the 50s, 60s and 70s, early 70s, right before he passes, he goes into this phase of making incredible art. He shifts to be this art musician, making art songs, collaborating with younger musicians, making these sweets, these elaborately composed

and arranged pieces for his big band and collaborating with all of these musicians recording a ton when he's in his 60s and 70s. And I just think it's like he nailed this better than almost anybody. I would put the only person who's maybe... Like an artistic final act. The only person who's maybe done this better but not on the scale of Duke Ellington

is someone like Charles Lloyd who's perhaps better now than he was at his like first peak. You know what I mean? But Duke Ellington nails his final act. He's not trying to be, you know, I mean, he's still touring around with doing that stuff, but he's also making money jungle. He's like taking risks when he doesn't have to.

He could just coast on taking the A train forever. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I mean, I agree with what you're saying in terms of this period. And I mean, he did stuff with the big band that was very, talking about the New Orleans suite, the far east suite. Yeah. Incredible.

And but I agree with that. But I just think this is a miss in terms of that. Like, I love that he took this chance. And you're right. Like that's, but, but I mean, if we say everything is great art just because Duke Ellington put his hands on it, I think that just does a disservice. I'll read this. And I think I, and this is not to restrict anybody from loving this record. I hope like different strokes for different folks, right? All I'm saying is like, we don't have to, we don't, we can, we can believe and understand and

appreciate and revel in this final act for, I don't want to say final, it was a long, whatever, 10, 12 years. This beautiful period at the end of his artistic career, we can celebrate it. We can celebrate that and like understand the arc unlike some artists you know they do their thing and whatever that he was like a crescendo and like he stayed relevant artistically it's not about oh i'm going to play rock and roll because that's where the wind's blowing it's just like he wants to try different things he's out of kind yeah let's try it i think we can appreciate that and and and and sit in that that truth of that without saying that everything that he touches is going to be a great document that's my only thing and so when that's subjective though i mean this this is a big swing

I'll give you that. I know, but it's a big swing. And you say it's a miss, but I think for a lot of people, this was a hit. Right. But I think for a lot of people, it's a hit because they're told it's a hit. And that's just what I want to give people a license. I know I was like that. So am I personalizing this too much?

Maybe a little bit. I mean, I genuinely, I mean, I genuinely, like I said, I'm not listening to this even once a year, but whenever I come back to it, I'm like, oh, it's so weird and what a cool idea and it kind of is a mess. I agree with both of those. It's kind of a mess. And it's kind of great at the same time that it's a mess. I agree with everything but that part.

saying. All I'm saying is mad respect to Duke Ellington for even trying stuff like this. I mean, if you think about like, you know, Lewis Armstrong, the greatest musician of the 20th century up there. He tried weird stuff. Well, but he also just did a lot of like, his last act was a lot of like Hello Dolly and recording pop songs

that he's singing and really like embracing sort of the celebratiness of his persona. And Duke certainly had that. He's doing this like, you know, probably better than almost anybody except for maybe like Miles, but Miles is like a different story altogether. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree he should be celebrated for this and for taking the risks and trying different things.

I just this, I don't think that the expectation, it's just weird in jazz how we're like, oh, because he did this and because these greats are together, because the album cover is great, then this is a great album. And that we can't talk about the production and the, like, that can kill a record. It doesn't mean, like, you set the bar when the production is at a lower level. The bar, it has to be set so high for the performance to come through. It's like we talk about listening to the early Lewis Armitter recordings where because of the technology, the recording, like he transcends the technology of the microphones and like where he's going to be placed where you can hear that beauty and humanity. And so, look, I'm not saying, come on, Duke, play it back like you did in the 30s and 40s when it was the good old.

No, that's not. Like I say, we have a week later to prove. I just think his playing is just so much better like anybody. I mean, Duke Alex is a human piano player. He's great. but I mean like you got to have the stuff I mean sometimes you go in there and it just doesn't quite click right I'm going to try to

can I just throw this out there too Jazz and Lincoln Center website that has this as one of the 10 great or 10 essential jazz piano albums and this is where I think there's a little bit of danger despite being praised mainly for his big band endeavors Duke Ellington's trio work proves to be a treasure all of its own

the collaboration between a young Max Roach and Charles Mingus with the season band leader offers up a dazzling post-stop mismash of a trio Oh, that's not even true. Duke's original compositions offer a free canvas for exquisite improvisation, blending the styles of each musician yet preserving their individual artistry, all while securing Duke's spot in the pantheon of jazz grades. It's just such a, I mean...

Thank you, Claude. What's he saying? Thank you, Claude. I know. It's like an AI. I don't know. Like, the thing is, I like your take on this. It's like weird and like experimental art music.

Yeah, but then it's like, say that. This is an important, an essential jazz album because stuff happened on here that it never happened before and it's going to challenge your brain. I mean, you say something, but don't be like, this is a great yada-da-da-data-trio record because it's not in that vein. Maybe there is something I'm missing.

I remain humble with this stuff and I'll always come back to it. Well, especially like if you look at the trio records from around this time by people like McCoy Tyner, by people like Bill Evans, by people like, I mean, Herbie Hancock and his quartet, Quinn Steph, Win Kelly, really incredible. stuff going on. Sonny Clark.

But let me try to, I'm going to try to get your back again. I'm going to take you to a warm valley. So this is, I think, from the 30. I mean, this is 39, 40. Beautiful.

Kills him every time. You know, it's Peter's soul, leave his body. Just so, you know, the piano's out of turn. If it doesn't bother you, that's great, actually, because it's a gray.

This is great, but it's not Duke's, like, best solo piano playing capture. It's going to be great all the time. But, like, There's little things in it that are, and his touch is incredible. Like, his phrasing, yeah.

What do you say, Peter, to the people, just to counter, again, your point of some of this stuff, to sort of the piano out of tune and the sound quality of this gives it that, like, sort of wabi-sabi of, like, it's not perfect, right? It is flawed. Maybe. To some people, that is a feature, not a bug, you know?

Well, talk about flawed. When the rhythm section comes in, I think. Well, no, it's just so, it takes away. Like, you want them to come in and check it up. Oh, out of tune and like, why is he blocking there? It's not, I'm not, dude. I'm here for it, man, I'm here for it. No, we're talking like, no, I'm saying this is not an F or a D.

So it's not art. You put an F in front of it. Of course it's art, but it's just not, this is just not, like there's a lot of other Duke Ellington. He recorded a lot. This is a lot of better stuff of him playing. It's a great composition. I mean, this is an amazing, one of his,

it's most popular. So just playing it, it's a lot of his most popular. it's going to be good, even on a crappy piano. But again, what if the rawness is something that people find attractive? If that's so, that's great. I just don't want people doing it because they're like, oh, this is a great record, so I have to like it. There's definitely some

of that. This is an important record. There's definitely some like... There's definitely some cheesy dude who's just like, I love money, jungle, babe. You know, like, it's a nabometer on this. Well, for sure. But, like, I do think a lot of people appreciate sort of, like, how kind of funky all this

is, you know? All right. That was Warm Valley. Wait, is there... Oh, is there a musical... No, I don't think there is at the end of that. I can't remember. I don't want to miss a single one of those.

Next up is, this might be... Wigwise has a great one. This is my favorite. This might be my favorite. What's up next? Wig wise. Oh, right. I love this tune.

Sounds like Monk. Yeah. Weird tune, though. This guy, like, cool change. Then goes to a blues in another key. Contrary motion to get what happens. I think it's swinging. I mean, it's fine.

It's just weird. But swing is not binary. It's not like... It's not. It's not swinging or it is. I mean, sometimes, but it's not like, it's not all the way in there to me. Minus and Roach are not, I hate to say, I'm not trying to be like, oh, these guys can't play. This is the problem in jazz, too.

It's like, you can't say anything. I'm just like, they're not locked in right now. And you could say, well, that's an artistic decision. It wasn't. But they're just playing a straight blues. But they really were having problems in this session. Okay, but that's no, that's like, okay, they bring you out your dinner that you order. at the restaurant and it's like, you know,

something's undercooked or whatever. And you're like, this isn't right. No, no, no, they're having problems in the kitchen. Like you're not gonna accept that as, you know, as a diner, as somebody that's eating that food. And so with this, it's like, yes, this is high art, but it's just music for people to enjoy. And you shouldn't, I don't know, I mean, yes,

that's the causation of maybe, you know, this. And I think that that's why it's not some of Duke's best playing because the rhythm section's not locked in, whatever, the acromote, the piano doesn't sound great. And so because you have incredible artists, that's going to push it up more than me playing it. Yeah. But it's not going to make it great. At some point

during the recording, Max Roach said something to Miggis that made him stop what he was doing, put the cover on his base, and storm out. Duke ran out after him and convinced him to come back. Producer Alan Douglas said, that's one of the visuals I will never forget. I remember leaning out the window, looking up towards

7th Avenue, and seeing Duke Ellington chasing Charlie Mingus up the street. You love that. You're all about the lore. I do love the Lord. But you can't disconnect all of this with what this. Most people do. You know what I'm saying? If somebody's like, this is an essential jazz record and you listen to it, how would you know that?

You shouldn't have to go research that. If you love it, it's interesting to add that story on if you're a, you know, music nerd or whatever. But I would just say Alan Douglas, this is nothing personal. I don't really know. I mean, I know that he was, you know, assistant like a runner for Duke in Paris. Hold on. I don't want to miss the musical F you. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Turn it out. It's a big one. I love that. You love these. They're off there. That's great. Okay, Alan Douglas.

Alan. I mean, I also say that's a little bit of a let down in terms of production, even them going on in an argument, even this getting released like this. We don't talk about this enough in jazz. The production, the engineering. That's part of the team. This is not like we fall too much into just like,

I agree with this. Let the geniuses, whatever happens, they're going to transcend. Why? Why do we got to do that in jazz? I do agree with this. I think it's kind of a shame we never got, like, we only got, like, a couple Charlie Parker recordings that don't sound, like, total trash production-wise.

Like, it would be great to get some kind of hi-fi recording of some of those older artists. Yeah. Even Artata, man, it would be awesome to hear him on, like, a great piano recorded in a modern or even a context that, I mean, I guess later... Later on it happened a little bit, but... Yeah, this was not because of tech...

I mean, by 1962, that was not because of tech... No, you're right, absolutely. We're past kind of blue here. We're past time out. We're past some of the most gorgeous... sounding albums of all time. Will you accept that, yeah, and I'm not saying this should have been glossy, or it should have even been like cavernous, like kind of blue.

It's not about like, oh, it has to sound a certain way. But, and this is always objective, right? I mean, this is not objective. I'm sorry, subjective. This is just my opinion, but I'd be interested to know yours. The production on this record, how would you rate that? Poorly. That was exactly the word I was going to say, poor.

Yeah, it's not, it doesn't sound great. Yeah. Although D's get degrees, I was told recently. These do get degrees. Yeah, it's not. very good. Yeah. And so to me, I don't think you can have a great record without, maybe

not, it doesn't have to be A level production, but it becomes very difficult when it's a D. You know what I mean? For me. For me. That's true. But it's all, you know, sliding scale. So we're only going to listen to the first God, right? No, we're only going to listen to the first seven tracks that were on the original LP, which you have here. By the way, I noticed your LP that you have in front of us, not opened.

Is that because you're going to return it, Peter? Well, no, I mean, I actually, no, I'm a little bit, I'm not a fan of wax time. And shout out, if I'm wrong, no, this is represented on Amazon. Don't cancel my prime account. I'm canceling it myself. I'm going to be because of this.

I didn't know you're such a Bezos head. I'm not. I'm just saying they represented this as an, not original, like a new pressing that was licensed. This was fairly expensive. I was excited to get this because I wanted to dig back into it. If they're going to send us free stuff, maybe wax time, shout out.

No, I mean, but this is like, this is somebody that just like stole it, basically, and they're selling it on it on Amazon's leg. and I'm doing it. Anyway, so I'm just, I'm not going to return it, but I'm not going to open and celebrate an unauthorized reissued that. So nobody's getting publishing rights or anything like that. Well, the second to last track on the original. Oh, you didn't want to go deeper to that. Not really. Debocheye and Debossi are on.

They're texting you right now. Yeah, they're like, hey, yeah, yeah. This is Caravan. Juan Teesel's Caravan. Yeah. That's so good. Feel the discomfort with for Max Roach, I think. Maybe I'm reading into this. No, absolutely.

I don't know what they're, it just, it feels to me when Ming is. to start. It's not like, oh, because that can be so exciting to do that. It just does, they don't lock in on the idea of loosening up. They have a different, and I think that Max Roach, the way he starts this is very, are we getting to categories yet? Because that's, yeah, let's get some categories. Oh, I want to hear the end because there's a good FU ending here.

Well, this is my, we got to go back earlier. Okay, so my apex moment is actually the very beginning of this. We could play that just as a refresher. This is also my apex moment. Oh, it is. Yeah, of the whole album. Yeah. Mine too.

is this when they're all locked in. I love Duke's entrance. This is my impact moment. That's great. The fact that Max Roach just like sticks with what he's doing. But the other half of my apex moment is the way this thing ends, and specifically the very last thing that Max Rhodes plays. But I think it kind of falls apart at the end.

And maybe that's what they meant. I'll be scared. Is there a form thing going on here? I mean, Ming's just super menacing on this as well. We talked about that at the beginning. I think the phone does. it off on. Like, let Duke have a... Now, that's an F-U. That's an F-U.

Or it's a... But it's a... It's a... It's a... It's a button. It's great. But I just, at least, you know, in my mind, it's like Duke's got this... Look how much fun we're having, listen for this album. He's usually those great voice things, you know. All this discussion. And then Miggis is jumping in. It's like, no, you don't need to do that. I mean, you're Charles Miggas, so you can, of course. But he's not needed. And then it's like, don't day. It's like ending. And, like, I can just see Max Rose sitting there.

And like, oh, you know, it's just... All right, are y'all done yet? And then when they finally finish, he's like, bim-da-da-da-da-da-da. Just where I started it. I honestly do want to know what's going on in Mingis' head as he's on this day in particular. What is he thinking when he's doing all this stuff?

There's such a brilliant bass playing. He can do whatever he wants on that base. But there's some such odd choices throughout the whole thing. I think there's some train wreck or car accident kind of moments, quite a few of them on the base. And so there is that like, oh, my gosh, what happened? You know what? Like, yeah.

You don't have a problem with some of the, Some of this is too is like when there's acrimony, right? When there's this kind of like personal tension between the personalities. I don't know if you've ever been in bands like this. I've been a part of bands like this. I try to keep myself out of the mud of this kind of stuff as much as I can. Because I don't think it makes for like a good music or a healthy soul. I don't mind conflict.

I don't mind conflict. No, I mean, we have conflict all the time. But when we have conflict, there's usually grace involved, right? Like I'm in good faith. Okay, maybe not along that. No, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm, if you and I have conflict, which we often, which we're doing right now, right? I know that you're coming at it from a place of good intentions.

There doesn't seem to be the case of that in this recording where there's not this grace given to each other. So when they're not locked in, it's not like, oh, no, we're going to figure this out. It's going to work out. That tension is something to be resolved. It's just kind of like, no, F you, we're going for it. I agree. And it feels like to me, Duke Ellington, for most of this record, if not all of it, I mean,

I haven't analyzed every minute, but I've listened to this a lot. Duke Ellington and Max Roach are approaching this like a piano trio recording. Yep. And the way of playing. And it's not to mean like, oh, we're going to play like the olden days. No, like with all the possibilities that an assemblage of genius players, it's like if somebody's writing for a string quartet, they've been doing that for hundreds of years, but it doesn't mean you can't bring something new to it. But like, that's the format. The piano trio is one of the greatest, most balance.

You have a big band. You have a concert band. You have a piano trio. You have a saxophone quartet. So different artists define it, but like the form is there. And so you have a lot of latitude within that. But like this just, they don't come together as a trio. I think that's my thing on this.

Now, had they recorded another day when they weren't fighting, had they done more takes? Again, production, I blame production on some of this. It's like, no, you've got Max Roach, Charles Mingus, and Duke Ellington. Like, this is close to a great. I don't think this is far from a great record. I just think because it's so much put up there is great. I'm like, no, don't let them, don't let the producers off the hook. Don't let the artists off the hook either in terms of like they could, don't you think those three could have made, they were supposed to do another record.

They were on contract. They had a contract for two records and they could not get them to agree to another one because this was such a. Yeah, so maybe it wasn't meant to be, but I know that three incredible instruments could come together. Now, is they going to be like tight like the Oscar Peterson trio playing together for. No. Rehearsing after the gigs every time, spending time together, golfing together. He can fall up into a situation like he does a week later. That's pretty well.

So, I mean, you know... Before we get to the last track, Solitude... And, sorry. And Charles Mingus and Max Roach have proven on many recordings. You talk about Massey Hall back in 40, whatever, with Dizzy and Charlie Park. They're locked in on that. So they know how to lock...

I mean, you know... I mean, in the Charles Mingus Quintet plus Max Roach, they're locked in. Right. So to say that, like, oh, no, on this, though, they're going for some other stuff. No, they're just not locked in. It just wasn't happening.

What? What did you say? Okay. He's pulling. I'm trying to lift him up. He's pulling me down. But I think that we owe it to this music to like say when it's not happening. It's not a train record.

I know I use the car. There's parts of it, though. But that's okay. You know what I mean? Not if everything is great, then nothing's great, right? Peter, before we get to the last track, I just want to talk a little bit about these last two songs, Caravan and Solitude.

I know that you actually, I mean, if you want to get Peter Martin's take on this, you have lessons on both those songs on your course jazz piano method here at Open Studio. We talk about go to openstudiojazz.com for all your jazz lessons needs. If you don't know, this podcast is presented by a platform that you started, oh, some years ago, in which you, me, great pianists like Aaron Parks, Emmett Cohen, Fred Hirsch, Sullivan, Fortner, Jeffrey Keiser, teach lessons on, make video courses on, do live classes on.

It's called Open Studio Jazz, and your course, the jazz piano method is our crown jewel. You do a new lesson every week. you've done several lessons on Caravan. I'm pretty sure you've done at least one lesson on Solitude. Yes. I know it's one of your faves. I love it. It's incredible that course.

So if you want to get Peter Martin's take on this great music, and by the way, a lot of Duke Ellington's music, in fact, we're currently in the middle of the Duke Ellington season at Open Studio. This whole winter, January, February, March, we've been working on Duke Ellington's music. I've been teaching Satendahl and Take the A-Train in our beginner jazz piano course called The Jazz Piano Foundation's New Weekly Lesson for me. our intermediate jazz piano course jazz piano expansions. So if you want to learn more, you can start a 14-day trial

by going to open studio jazz.com slash y-h-I. That's you'll hear it, Y-H-I. OpenSudiojazz.com slash YH-I for your jazz list. And you said a 14-day trial, that sounds like it might be free. It is free. During the trial period. A free trial. So it's like totally risk-free.

You go, you check it out. If you don't like us, you don't like what we're talking about. Can I tell you a secret? Yeah. Okay. Is this social open studio bubble? We're not, yeah. No one else is here.

It's a 14-day free trial, and then we actually have a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. So 30 plus 14. No, but I'm just saying, we want people that love your lessons, love my lessons, love somebody's. We've got, like, just like not every album's for everybody, not every teacher,

but we got some of the great ones that are putting stuff out there, but we only want people that this is a good fit. So come on in, it's totally risk-free. By the way, we've got an incredible community of musicians there. We've got this community called The Hang, where we have all of these discussion groups going on. We're going to have a discussion about that. I know that's going to happen. There's arguments about albums, just like we're having here today. Again, go to open studio,

jazz.com slash YHI to start your 14-day free trial. Back to the show. Okay, Peter. Yep. Last track, Solitude. One of the greatest jazz standards of all time. There are more tracks on the current, like, you know, Apple Music, Spotify, CD version of this, but this is the, original LP Ender and I have a hot take about this. Okay. Voice leading on that chord was so gorgeous. The correct change? I mean, it's composer.

Do you say the correct changes? Yeah, he's the composer. Pitchy. This track should have just meant solo piano. It goes from an A, I'd say A minus because of the out of tune piano. Incredible ideas. I mean, this is pedestrian, like, rhythm section.

I mean, it's fine, but it's not. It's a little phrase. Okay. It's just like them coming in and walking this far into it makes it... Hold on. Why are you stopping it now? Does it feel this way to you two? Oh, just move it on.

This is the last track. How would move it on to you? No, but I'm saying like, can't the playing be great? And we could say overall the track doesn't quite do it. Like, there's better versions of Duke playing the solo piano. There's a lot of versions of Duke doing this. And so, and like when they come in, it's just, I don't know, it doesn't add. And they're walking.

Like, the entrances are weird. Dingus is trying to catch some of those notes at like the... But he doesn't need to do that. He definitely... It almost sounded like they were rehearsing. And then we could be like, oh, it's the magic of the first take. They didn't rehearse it. I'm like, no, do another take.

Sorry. You should have produced this album. Well... Are you looking at him? He's like, yeah, maybe I'm sure. I was like, but I wanted to talk about... Do you like it when they go to that walking? It takes a minute for it to get going.

There are some great moments... Oh, play me to the part when it gets going after that. Okay. I think we passed. We got to listen to end of this, though, because this is the big Mingus, the final FU at the end of the album, man. Then he forces him to the one. Yeah.

Come on, man. I mean, it's hilarious. You don't think that's fun? I mean, it's... What, we're not having fun anymore, Peter? Oh, I'm having a lot of fun. But he's definitely saying FU, right? Can we establish that?

No. I love, I just love your theory that every song in this album ends with a little bit of a musical FU. I don't know if it's true. Some of it just feel like buttons, but I do... They're FU buttons. You know, we all end stuff. It's kind of like falling apart a little bit, which is kind of the theme of the album.

But a song like that. Like, it could have been cool if they come together and be like, we're just going to like play some blue, we're going to play free. We're just going to make music. Like, that would be so interesting. But you're playing solid. One of his most beloved.

And Duke plays as beautiful as he would do, almost like written out sounding, just not like jazzy or lounge piano, just beautiful, except for, you know what I mean? And then you come to that and it's just kind of like, but we're supposed to be like, oh my God, this is great because it's weird. Is Solitude your Desert Island track?

Give me a beret. This is weird. You're projecting. Is Solitude your Desert Island? What's your Desert Island? Before we get to that, I want us to say this. This is a difficult entry point to jazz. That's my problem with being like,

this one of the greatest jazz albums. I feel like we, it's just like anything. Like, oh, you want to get into French fruit. You're not going to go to the fussy thing. Oh, try this. Yeah, sure this. Okay. And then, oh, I don't like French fruit.

No, it's like. Give something that's... What if you're a poser? And you want to be like, I'm still in the money jungle? You know what I mean? That's what I think is happening. I think this is an emperor

who has no close situation. I'm just kidding. No, I think it just depends on what you like, man. It just depends on your taste. No, I know you don't. No, we're tastemakers, my friend. We're tastemakers. We're curators.

We have a responsibility. What is your... What is your Desvivalant track? Are there any tracks that you would take to your desk... Oh, you're going to your first NBA game. Let me tell you what's exciting. Defense. Defense wins championships.

No, don't look at the dunk. Let's concentrate on the triangle offense. That's fun. Let's analyze that. What was it, 1994? Come on. Sorry. Do you have a desert island track?

Is it take the coal train? I mean, solitude. Like, no, there's no track on here that, I mean, solitude, but there's so many other versions of this, I'd rather hear. I mean, maybe Florette, Afrika, because this is. But you know what? That's such a stunning composition. This is not my favorite version of this. Could I call it an audible and have us play a little something?

Sure. Nora Jones. What? I mean, this is, you know what? Because it's with Nora Jones, who I love piano. John Patatucci, assume me I love, I believe it's John Patatooch on it. And Wayne Shorter. And I think, and this is not about this.

I just think it's an interesting version of it. Oh, it's Blaine. Brian Blaine. Brian Blaine. Patatucci on base? we have to do Snor Jones, man That'd be a fun episode Yeah

Nor, great pianist Yeah And so that's my thing of like So that's your desert island? Well, no, I mean, Florette, Africa I mean, from the Money Jungle version would probably be my one

There's some places in there Where I'm like, what? I'm going wig-wise I just love this And to me this This is, I think of Money Jungle This is Money Jungle Yeah

What's going on? That's a good call That would be my second one. I think both of our kids. Apex Moments was the intro to caravan. Bespoke playlist. What do you got? Records that should not be

on essential lists. Jazz records. I just made that up. It's a weird playlist to make. I have jazz supergroups because, you know, it's kind of a supergroup. Okay, so do you have any quibble bits? No, no.

I can find it. Oh, we got it. Is there anybody here still producing this? I think we're alone in the studio. Do you have any quibble bits? Yes, the production. This whole episode has been one day. I hope I, man, I feel, I've never gone negative like this. I feel bad. No, no, can I just say, Peter? I'm so proud of you for actually being like,

honest and giving your actual opinion on how you feel about it. I mean, look, we have so much, and we've explored the great art. I mean, Max Roach is someone... You're definitely going to get some hate for this. Well, no, that's fine. I mean, all three of these great artists have other things that I love. For sure. You know,

and so, like, Max Roach, we've probably talked about the least. We have, but we haven't done, like, we got it. We're going to do

Max Roach and Clifford. I mean, that was his thing, almost. I mean, it was a partnership with Cliff and Brown. Some of the greatest

recordings ever made a vintage. I mean, we said it at the top. Max Roach is one of the greatest drummers ever live. I just feel like

it's a disservice if we go. And look, if this is, what's the thing of don't, don't dog out somebody's doggy bite or whatever that is?

Don't yuck on someone else's yum. Yeah, that's another way of saying it. So if you love this, this is great. I would just say, yeah, anyway, don't love it just because you're supposed to, because you have license. You know what you're supposed to love? Stuff that you love, okay? My quibble bit is that I think...

Oh, what's your quibble bit? I'm just kidding. We know what your quibble bit. My quibble bit is that I honestly do think this is best experience with just the original seven tracks. Now, there are four other tracks that have been on subsequent releases since the original LP. And they're all good, but because this is so intense, it's such an experience. It is very emotionally draining this album a little bit.

Yeah, I agree. The 30 minutes, the seven tracks, ending with solitude, I think is the key to this. I've been listening to this in the buildup of this episode in that way. I listened to it once all the way through, including all of like the alternative gigs and everything, which I didn't do with all the other. I never liked those. But I really appreciate the original sort of seven-track version of this that is shorter, and it is like a little bit more of an intense but thrilling short experience.

So that's my quote. I agree. I'm a little surprised that your biggest quibble bit is that, you know, it's not presented. I mean, I think like there's bigger quibble bits than that, but I do, I will say this, the way the ending on solitude is genius. Like there's so much genius built into the compositions, I think. that to me saves it. But the way that it ends at the Anastas,

it's actually appropriate. That kind of represents this record to me. It's a very... Mingus barges in on the one. Yeah, it's a very honest, like, this is not, this is an... There's acrimony in this. It's just, to me, it's so difficult

because solitude is like the least acrimonious song written, maybe. Now who's hyperbole... The way Duke starts it, too, is very, like, introspective and beautiful. You know, I mean, so there's so much beauty here. It's just a weird, like, kind of... I have other quibble bits, mostly with the sound quality, but we talked about that.

Sound quality is poor. Yeah, yeah. And the piano tuning is poor. Did I mention that? Snobometer, how snobby is this album? I mean, this is a 10. I love it. He's off the 5.

Although it may be a 1, actually. No, no, it's a 10. I have it as a 9. I think it's incredibly snobby. I do think it's, this is, if you're actually like genuinely trying to understand jazz, this is a tough entry. This would be a hard, really hard. And irresponsible entry, a little bit to, you know.

I think it's, but it's almost a foe as an F-A-U-X-X-E-E-E-X-. snob 10 again I think that's totally subjective man I think there are people who genuinely love this album for like totally valid reasons I like this album

it's not one of my favorites but I do love listening to it I have love listening to it in the past and sorry did I've read it for no no no it's just when I was younger I really was like this I was a little bit more of like this is so cool that they're doing this crazy stuff

let's start over to me let me give it a different can we listen to the first song again I think I need to listen to this. Yeah, let's start a bit. No, is it better than Kobi? Kind of Blue. Is it better than Miles Davis is kind of blue?

Now, usually you put it's even. No, I have occasion. No, come on. That was like inner visions or something. Come on, man. Is it better than Kind of Blue? No, it's not. No, I have, nah.

But would the ultimate jazz snobs say yes, just because it's not clean. Yeah. Yeah. Which is fine. Don't yuck on my yum. Acuchamance. I mean, accoutrements, I'm going to go nine.

Yeah, I got eight. I think it's really. strong. I would be damn near 10. If I didn't have the wax time version, I might... I actually can't think of a better title than Money Jungle. Yeah, and I mean, the image and like... It's poetry. It does exhibit a little bit of the acrimony that was in the studio, but just a little, I mean,

you don't want that to, you know, be like a YouTube thumb-out at each other's throats. What do you got up next? Oh, that microphone there and the stand. This is high-level design here. Up next. Okay, so the obvious choice is Duke Ellington and John Coltrane that was up the next week

but I'm actually going to go to a record called Piano Reflections which you know which was I believe from like 1953 or 54 yeah yeah something Duke Ellington Trio yeah incredible trio record

like if you like this but you're like there's some weird stuff around it like I was saying I think you'll love that because everything is placed so you know look a lot of people will be like oh okay boomer you you you got to have it all cleaning an aniseptic and with a little bow on it.

I don't know, yeah, to me, that. But again, different strokes for different folks. Different strokes for different folks in this world. Silver spoons. Confusing. Peter, this has been a blast, man. It really has been fun. Have we ever disagreed this much in an episode?

No, we've never disagreed this much, and I've loved every second of it. I wish we had more albums that we disagreed on because it's really fun, and I think you did a really good job of voicing your case, and I hope I did a good job of voicing my case, because I really like all the tension and the weirdness of it, but I get why you don't.

So my only ask for you is that, just give your honest opinion of this. Don't be like, don't think this is a record that you should like because somebody who you think is more important or less important. You know, just like, how do you like it? By the way, if you love it. Don't think that this is a record that you shouldn't like, just because someone that is more experienced tells you not to like it.

No, I'm not telling anyone not to like it. I'm just saying, be honest about it. And this is coming from experience. I was not honest about this. Like, I kept saying I gotta like it. And I do like. Like, I think I express the parts that I like. Yeah.

But overall, I'm like, it's right. Well, until next time. You'll hear it.