You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Peter and Adam LOVE Kenny G

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Kenny Garrett's Songbook is a huge contender for one the best albums to come out of the 90's jazz movement. So many things about this album hit hard for jazz musicians and music lovers alike.Kenny Garrett at Montreaux '97Kenny Garrett "Songbook"Audio only?? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, what's up? Today, we are listening to perhaps the greatest jazz album of the 1990s. Now, I want to see if you can guess what it is. So, it's by an artist who plays the saxophone. Okay. Their first name is Kenny. Okay, I got you.

You probably already have it. Yeah. Their last initial is G. Yep. Yeah? Yep. The first word of the album is song. Do you think you know it?

Yep. I've got it. I got you. I'm Adam Menace. And I'm Peter Barton. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Jazz. Explored. explored Peter, explore me this.

What's going on over there? I mean, it was a little bit of a gag. You picked Songbird over Songbook? You said Kenny G. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, Kenny Garrett, who we are going to be listening today, is known colloquially as the real Kenny G. The real Kenny G. Which is kind of a funny thing.

Actually, big love to the other Kenny G from Songbird fame as well. Hey, my parents cranked Songbird in, like on our back patio, summer days like today. A little country time iced tea, little Kenny G. Songbird. Which also had quite a bit of saccharine in it as well. That's living, my man. Yeah, today we are listening to Kenny Garrett's song. Not healthy, but it feels good.

Well, this is the Kenny Garrett's song book. I say it's definitely a contender for one of the great jazz albums of the 1990s. There's a few that we could put in there. Certainly you can include some of Joshua Redmond's mid-90s run. You can include some of the Brad Meldow trio like, you know, Art of the Trio in that conversation. There's some Christian McBride albums. I would say there's even some Benny Green albums.

Oh, yeah. Blue No Trio albums. In the run. There's, of course, the Joe Henderson early 90s things that are in the run. But none of them, I think, are, I don't know if any are as impactful as songbook. Honestly, I've played, these are a collection of modern jazz standards. Yeah. I played all of them on gigs before, like multiple times.

Nice. And they're so much fun to play. And we can talk about what makes them so much fun to play. Yeah. Could you pull them out? except for maybe one or two when it's like on a jam session, that would be tougher.

You could be tougher. It should be able to. Yeah, but you could pull out, like sing a song of song, you could pull out, everybody's going to screw up the bridge, but that's okay. Yeah.

But just that, yeah, I mean, it only happens like one time. They don't even, they go back to a Kenny G. solo after the, I mean,

is this album kind of a slow, what we're going to get into this, but is it been a slow burn, though, in terms of becoming a classic? I think it has become more of a classic than it probably was

recognized in 1997. And I think it's for good reason because the players on it are fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. The playing is amazing. I think it's probably we can get into this, but it's probably Kenny Garrett's strongest compositional album. I think this album really hit a sweet spot with like singable melodies, but burning solos. We'll talk about that too, about how the hell do you do that? It's the most challenging thing to have these beautiful songs, beautiful. compositions that give the improviser a lot of meat on the bone to like come up with. And then you have this collection of the finest improvisers in the world on it. Kenny Kirkland, Jeff Tane Watts, Nat Reeves. Like, it's just incredible. So we'll get into all that. But let's, let's give a little

cultural context, Peter, to start it off. So this was released in May of 1997, by the way. That was also when I was supposed to graduate high school. And I didn't because I was playing music all the time. We got it back though. You graduate high school? We got it back. I got my good enough diploma eventually and went to the university, but we got it. I was, I- GED in the house.

I loved playing music so much more than high school that I, one time I just stopped the high school. Dude, I love music more than high school too. Yeah, you left high school as well. That's true. You went right to Juilliard. I had a diploma, though, my friend. I did not.

I eventually got it together. It's all good. But, okay, so that's a little personal cultural context is I was very worried about my future. But the number one movie in the world was the Lost World. Jurassic Park's the Lost World. Oh, that was a good one. The sequel to Jurassic Park.

The number one show was Seinfeld. What are you a little... Signfeld. You don't seem convinced. It was surprising. You know, I thought it was going to be ER or a big drama like that, but it was Seinfeld. Yeah.

The number one song, and again, this was like... Are we back in 97? What? I'm telling you what? You haven't lived until you've danced in a basement in Fentonton. This is a big hit. This was a huge hit. The president was William.

That was the biggest hit of the year? I know it was like the summer. It had to be one of them. Yeah. Man, hypnotized from Biggie. The president of the United States was William Jefferson, Clinton. Oh, I think you were to say Woodrow Wilson. I was like, it wasn't that long ago.

No, not quite that long ago. Bill Clinton. Some other cultural happenings. Tony Blair was elected for the first time as Prime Minister of Great Britain. The IBM computer Deep Blue beat Kasparov in a game of chess the first time that a computer beat a human at chess. But Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.

How was that possible? Oh, it was just, it was not hooked up to the network. Yeah, maybe not. I shouldn't say beat a human, but beat probably the best chess player in the world at that time. Which has led up to today where AI is going to take over and beat all of us. Oh, yeah.

AI is going to be able to do this podcast so much better than we can do. I am AI, you are, yeah. See, that's not going to be that. It's going to be like super charming and way better looking than both of us. Anyway, that day's coming. And also, Brascia Dormant won the Champions League. And that's... Dortmund.

Dortmund. Dortmund. Dortmund. Won the Champions League. Yeah. What about some artist background on Kenny G. Kenny Garrett and Jeff Tain Watts, the drummer, and of course, saxophone on this amazing album, were both age 36 at this time.

killing. And that's like, it's such a crazy thing to think about that because I've known Kenny Garrett a long time. And Jeff, I knew all of these musicians and know all of them. All of them are thankfully still with us, except for Kenny Kirkland, unfortunately. But I remember, I heard this band that year in 97. There's, there's a great video that you can catch on YouTube. We'll link to it below of them playing at the Montro Jazz Festival from the summer of when this, when did this come out? It came out in May, right? So this, like from that summer right after a play, playing all the same music. Incredibly.

I was at that concert. No way. Yes, I was absolutely there. In fact, I even remember I called and left a voice message on the phone of Kenny Garrett in his room right after the gig. At the hotel? At the hotel. Back when you could leave messages. So little Peter Martin was like, man, I was so killing, boy.

Dude, I was like, you know, 25 years old. I wasn't 26 years old. I was, you know, man. No, I did. I was just like, dude, that was amazing. Thank you, is what I was saying. And if Kenny Kirkland has, you need a sub. give me a call too. No, I didn't say that.

No, but he, I mean, I got to... We'll talk about that. I got to feel... Yeah, I got to feel this band and hear it. But thinking back on it now, I'm like, this is crazy that they were so young, you know? I mean, they're obviously older than me, so they felt like seasoned veterans.

So Kenny Garrett and Tain were both 36. Nat Reeves and Kenny Kirkland were both 41. Nice. But just a little bit older. And then, of course, tragically, Kenny Kirkland died the next year in 1998. Was this his probably last big time album that he was a part of before he had?

Kenny Kirkland, yes. He was on something else after this. I'm not sure what it was. It wasn't his last album recording. Yeah. But it was really, and they toured a lot with this band right at the end, and it was just a tragic thing. Obviously, the musical loss of Kenny Kirkland for the whole music community, beyond

just jazz and everything. Forty-one, man. Devastating. It's crazy. But this was released in May of 1997, recorded in, when was it in January? Back at a time when recordings were released a little bit closer to when they were recorded, which was cool. This was a two session, which we're going to talk about this a little bit later, possibly in Apex

Mountain or underrated in our bespoke little divisions. That might be the sweet spot, but was recorded at Searsound, which we were just that recently for the Ron Carter session that we did. Legendary studio, fantastic studio in Midtown Manhattan. Of course, on the Warner Brothers label, this was sort of the, I guess this was getting towards the end of the run for Matt Pearson when he was head of A&R for Warner Jazz. Just fantastic albums. Kenny, Garrett, Joshua Redmond, Brad Meldow, some others that I'm,

was Mathini? No, Mathini wasn't on there. But I mean, just some of the best 90s jazz records. On a huge label. Yeah, going right into the Verve as well,

of course, which we've talked about before. We said, Kenny Garrett on alto, soprano, Kenny Kirkland, piano, Nat Reeves on bass, Jeff Tain Watts on drums. This received a Grammy nomination

for Best Instrumentalal Jazz. Inexplicably did not win that. It better have been like kind of blue or Love Supreme you know, should have won it. And I don't think those came out that year. But yeah, Kenny Garrett produced this. Joe Furliff, fantastic engineer that I got a chance to work with once,

amazing engineer who did a lot of the Warner Jazz stuff, mastered by Greg Calbee, who's fantastic as well. And then something really unique about this album that I think we've already mentioned. 10, like this is a true CD. This is we're out of the album period. I mean, I'm sure. They're not pressing vinyl at this point. We've tried because we do our listening session here.

we want to listen to vinyl. Getting 90s vinyl is impossible. Right. There might be some bootlegs out there or something. But this was very much 10 songs. The way the CD unfolds makes sense more as a CD than as an LP. There's no sort of demarcation point

between side A and side B. It's a classic CD. It's not this is once people were comfortable. You know, it's getting into what is? This is another one where I know I've purchased at least three copies of this because it gets all, like it gets down in the car seat. You know what I mean?

It's like, It gets fun to buy a game though. It gets lost on a plane somewhere. Get up Amazon for a little $799 or man. It's all good. I was just looking for the length. I said classic CD length, 59 minutes, 43 seconds.

It's a one hour. So it's not an album. It's a CD and we're here for it, you know. But it's all originals, all, as you've already alluded to, just incredible bangers, beautiful compositions. Beautiful.

Kind of underrated compositions in a way, although some of them are really known and beloved. But again, it's, it's risen to the top, I think, amongst players. At least here in St. Louis, man. Everybody here knows these songs and plays these songs. Yeah, I think that might be a little unique. This might be

an epicenter for it. Maybe because it's good work that you and I have done around here. I'm not taking credit for that, but it's I've played these on multiple gigs. Been called, been given lead sheets with these tunes, like the two down one across, and all of them, pretty much. Yeah. Send some of those

over. I need those. Yeah. Should we get in and listen to this bad boy? Yeah, let's listen to track one, speaking of two down one across. As we do here at the pod. Kill an opener. Kill an opener. Stay at. Hold on.

Let me start it with the volume correct because I didn't do it justice. I love a big Roboto opener. Oh, it's so great. And then the way this, and we're going to hear the way, let's listen to this all the way through. We can comment as we go. But the way this tune ends and the way it starts, take note. It's a statement Tane is already in the driver's seat, I would say.

That's what you got coming. Welcome in. Much love, fam. Okay, can we just talk about some? I thought we were listening to the whole way here. We're going to do it. But I want to find some excuses to go back. Underrated is the ability to play on one.

Check out Kenny Kerr. It's kind of part of the tune to Be-de-B-B-Doo-Doo-Doo. On the one. on the one. And a four. You got Kenny Kirkland. What an opener.

A lot of these tracks. The holdout. Everything held out. I mean, this is so, such a balanced track. I'm joking about the bookends, but for real, it's so balanced. Yes, the playing is just killer. And it's got like, it's got that hump. I mean, Tane just, he gets into this, all this crazy, like, interactive stuff.

But somehow that backbeat is still there, you know. Actually, if you hear like, Oh, sorry. That's the next tune. But check out. Like, swing it. It's almost like,

Chad. You know what I'm saying? It's like. So, man. Yeah, I mean, it's just, there's such an underlying pulse and groove. Like, the economics of the groove are just stunning, really, you know? And I've listened to this so much.

And I just, I never get tired of it. And I think the. there is a direct, like a very interesting, uh, direct line from the John Coltrane. Okay, I'm going to put it out there. Hold up. I'm jumping to a hot take early. Sorry. There's a direct line from the John Coltrane quartet to this, to this iteration of the Kenny Garrett quartet. And certain things, yes, Kenny Garrett, this comes later, 30 years later, whatever. But the way that they play, the way that they interact, the spirit with which, like that, that Elvin Jones, John Coltrane connection, you're already hearing that with Kenny Garrett and, am I out on a limb here?

I don't know. No, you're, I'm here for it. You are on track. You know what? I'm sucking it in, so I'm out of the limb, but I'm not, I'm not breaking that limb because it really is there, the way they play the, the, the, the, because these epilogues, these second helpings we're going to call them at the end can become very self-indulgent in the wrong hands.

When you're almost taking another soul and you've got a, like, they hit the last core, they go back to the bookend, the Roboto, and there's almost a minute of music at the end of a bunch of these tracks. Yeah. And like that, and it's only, this track's only, only five. minutes and 16 seconds long. So like to be it to do all that playing can kind of be like all right you already had your solo. But he lifts it and like and Tane is there and Kenny Kirkland's kind of staying out of the way at the right and like they're all working together and on different tracks

we're going to check that out. But to pull off the second helping, the epilogue. Well as we know, I mean, it's a very simple way to structure the song. But to make simple things sound good to sound sophisticated takes masters of what they're doing. And that's what this is. This is four masters taking relatively simple things, one chord. You know what I mean? Burn it out. That structure of the roboto, the head, the rebutto, simple structure, and then just

like elevate it to something that's beyond what the sum of all those parts are. And that's what masters do. Kind of cocky coming out with a burnout one quarter on the first track, too. I like that. Confident. Confident. confident and cocky. That's what we like. All right. Are there any reviews or liner notes that we want to share before we get deep into some bangers here?

I just picked out a little from this Washington Post, Jeffrey Himes or Gregory Himes? No, Gregory Himes would be the dancer. Heinz. Okay, this is Himes. Jeffrey, I believe. Washington Post. So not the same first name, not the same last. I'm sorry. Kenny Garrett, songbook, Warner Brothers. This is just the first part. On his last two albums, 1995's, trilogy, that's a killing record too. And last year's pursuance, the music of John Coltrane, maybe that's that direct connection. Kenny Garris established

himself as one of the more distinctive young talents in jazz. You know, sorry, sidebar here. It's kind of funny, too, even that when he said young, that's why I had to look up their ages. And I was like, that's right, he was young. But he'd also, like, Kenny Garrett had been out, like, we really looked at him as one of the elder

states was in the music. Like, when I first came up to New York, like, because he played with Miles, he was super young. But, like, he was that connection that Miles. I mean, Brantford and Winton as well. Well, Brantford played with Miles and Schofield. Like those bands,

those are some really interesting bands, but like Kenny Garrett's playing with Miles. I heard that live was just amazing. Like he got that connection too. So he was really established. So it's kind of funny just hearing distinctive young talents. But he was not like, I mean,

yes, he was part of the young lions, but we always felt like he was above the young lions. You know what I mean? He was more like Bramford, Winton, like that, Jeff Watts. They were really the ones that set up

the so-called Young Lions, I would say. Playing out-tone soprano saxophone, Garrett displayed a thick, vocal-like tone he could harden into a testifying shout or relax into an intimate whisper. He avoided the temptation of fast and flashy runs in favor of digging into the emotional

core of the material. After showing his skill at interpreting jazz standards on the last two projects, Garrett emerges as an imposing composer on his new album's songbook. He wrote all 10 of the varied but substantial pieces, and he recorded them with two-fifths of the original Winton Marsalis Quintet.

Drummer Jeff Taine Watts and pianist Kenny Kirkland, as well as bassist Nat Reeves. Garrett has a very different approach than Marcellus rooted more in the aggressive experimentation of the 60s rather than the refined classicism of the 50s. That's a little splitting hairs, but

I think there's something to that. But he's just as exciting in his one way. It's a very Washington post thing. Yes, and just as, yeah, kind of like, and just as deserving of prominence. So I think that's kind of a cool. That would be interesting. I couldn't get past that because I didn't pay to sign up for Washington Post.

Shout out Washington Post. Hustos hanging on to the paywall model. Good for you. I was able to grab that much, though, for some reason. For you. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is something to that. It's always like the 50s classicism and the 60s. I mean, there was a lot of overlap and, you know,

it doesn't always fall right into there. But I think that there is something interesting. And then that connection with the great Winton Marsalis' original quintet with Brantford and Kennedy. and Kenny Kirkland and Tain. The connection to John Coltrane and to that Marcellus quintet, I think, is important for this lineage, for sure.

You can hear it. You can hear it. And it's interesting that the two albums before was the music of John Coltrane, because that had to have affected what he was going to be doing in the years to come, and we can kind of hear it right here.

And it's so interesting, him being primarily an alto saxophonist, you know, and then, but having that soprano connection, that's kind of the great unifier, I think, for a lot of these great players. obviously Coltrane being a tenor sexophonist, but having the beautiful soprano as well.

But it's always interesting when you get those. I mean, there's a lot of other influences you hear in there. Of course, Jackie McLean, you know, Sunny Rollins, bird. I mean, but Kenny Garrett's just, man, what a master. Can I give you my banger? Yes, we're on to the bangers. Are these number one bangers?

These are number one bangers. Mine is, I mean, it's easily the star of the show here. It's sing a song of song. You want to drive this? You want me to. You got it. You can play it. It's also, Kenny Kirkland's solo here is my banger of a solo. So maybe we'll go right.

I think that's the first solo. It's a first solo. But the tune itself is beautiful. It's completely singable. It's a very simple tune. Again, taking simple things, but making them sophisticated is the sign of true masters. And they really do this on Sing a Song a Song, and I think that's why it's the star of the show. Yep.

And I thought this was like the hit, which it kind of is. But there's another track that. well, we'll get to that in a second. But this is what I've always known is like what, for the GP, this is the one. For sure. And for those in the know.

There's that bass, left-hand piano thing that we're going to hear on Joshua Redmond's Yes. Beyond four years later. Man, the way that Tane, like, it's such an interesting way he enters. Before he does the groove,

he's doing that other symbol. It's so great. Let's get a little, let's luxuriate in that life. Can he, can he don't have to come in yet. Let it lay there. And notice that it's...

Root 5th, 10th, root 5th, 10th. The last time, root 5th, root. Yes. Balance. Listen the way Kenny Garrett is... and Kenny Kirkman are phrasing the melody. Together, but like just... Ooh! Kenny Kirkland's starting to explain out a little bit of the harmony,

a little bit more. You know, Nat Reach, could play that bass line over and over. that bass line over and over again so well, but never gets automated or stuck in it. It's just killing. And this is the only time this bridge happens. Right. They don't go over it. Over what each of these musicians were using.

Yeah. To play over, Kenny Kirkland using a lot of that, like an A melodic minor ascending. Right. On the E, starting on E. Yeah. And then like a C-Lidian. and Kenny Garrett is using more of that, we'll hear more like F naturals than F sharps. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Kirkland's leading more into that C natural. Yeah. Love this solo. This is my bang over solo because it's Kenny Kirkland, I think, at his most melodic. It is, he's really playing the tune. Like he's capturing the spirit of the tune.

All of these little themes that he's developing are so gorgeous. It's a very much like an explosion. It's a singable exploratory solo. It's a singable exploratory solo. And there's a lot more of flashy solos from him on this album, but this is, I think, the most, for me, like, inline musically with what's going on. I don't know, it hits me every time. Yeah. That e, like, harmonic major.

Yeah. So he's already made a-hapal there, like a melodic, or a harmonic line. But you know, that's, it's a good thing to think about, like, that it's not, like, that it's not, you know, it's not. just like, what is the chord? Like, what is the E major chord? It doesn't matter. Exactly. And because it's not clearly defined, it can be different things.

Yeah. You know what I mean? So you're listening to each other. Well, and there's a tension that can happen. If Kenny Kirkland plays, he's playing something with a natural nine, and Kenny Garrett plays that F natural, that's not a wrong note or wrong. Right. Like, that tension is part of what makes this song, this song.

We talked about that when Aaron Parks was here in our studio doing his amazing course meditations on jazz piano, he talks about like, you know, when you're comping for someone and they take it out, you don't always have to take it out. In fact, they probably want that tension of them being outside of the changes and you being inside of the changes. So the fact that this E is sort of negotiable, right? What kind of E this is is part of the charm of the tune. Absolutely.

And I think that that's a good thing when you're writing, like if you want to get into this, the possibility to be able to get into some kind of playing like this. Well, wouldn't we all? Is that maybe you don't put like E major, you know, with a flat 13 and a major seven, like exactly the way you're going to play. It's E, it's E, you know. It's like literally a root of E. Like what fits with that baseline?

Because that's happening every time, right? Or. There's going to be a major third in an E. And that's about all we know. Exactly. Sometimes you hear that. Sometimes you hear the D sharp. Sometimes you hear

an A melodic minor ascending starting on you. Sometimes you hear that F natural. Sometimes Kenny Garrett is about to play something like that, which is, I think that scale does have a name, but I forget what it is, but it's that. Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. Such great stuff.

All right, well, you've done good on those. Thank you. So that was your bangor track and your solo. Okay, so my banger track is this was this I think was of all the albums we've done so far was the hardest for me to choose there's so many bangers yeah it was like there's like many bangers there's 10 tracks there's like eight bangers oh well wait which which are the two words I'm not going to say which ones I don't like the anti-banger

no I'm not going to tell you I'm going with brother I like eight tracks on this 10 track I'm going with brother brother hubbard great track and um the solo is actually from this as well conveniently for my bangor solo which is Kenny Garrett's solos Actually, both of his solos. We're going to jump between those. Second helping Garrett over here. Listen to those drums, too. I'm happy already.

That was his, what was that drum? Sonars. That's a great bass sound. Shout out Furla. And the choice to not have it with piano, you know, that's interesting. Just a simple tune, beautiful. Has Brother Hubbard ever been sampled? Surely it's been sampled.

Tane hitting that and a four with authority. All right, Kenny Cargan Soul is killing, too. But that's so, like the way he ends it, the whole thing. And like, probably if you saw a transcription of this or played it, you'd be like, wow, that is so easy. And why does it not sound as good as the way Kenny Garrett's doing it? There's so much stylization to how he plays. Like, so much of it is just, you know, blues and pentatonic stuff. But then, you know, sliding up in really interesting ways up to that major seventh and stuff playing around with that.

like very like developmental and then because the bridge is like so simple four to five you know to one I think we're gonna have a problem with the snobometer but when we get there we'll talk about it. We're gonna have a problem with a snobometer but we'll see. But as good as

you know what I have a groove snobometer that's going off the charts on this bad boy let's put that out there. So as great as that solo is I'm gonna take because it's in the same tune Kenny Garrett as he does a lot on this record comes back for seconds he does a little epilogue

He does a little second solo. He does a little, this is my album, this is my party, and I can play when I want to. And I think this solo is actually my banger solo. That was leading up to it was great. So let's come out of the melody here, right? A little boom. I know we've got a good Spotify banger's story here, too,

because this is one I had no idea about until this morning when we got here. Yeah, I mean, I would have assumed it was sing a song of song, which is 2.2 million plays, which is quite a bit. But before it's time to say goodbye, which was a finalist for my banger track. It's a great track. Yeah, but 23 million. 23 million.

I don't know. It must have been on some kind of big playlist or something. Oh, I thought you were doing research on that over there. No, I got something else for Apex Mountain later. Okay. Let's just, I just want to play a little bit of this because this, I mean, this is a stunning tune. For some reason, I always thought this was Kenny Kirkland's composition.

Like, and I was corrected on that, if my information is correct, but it's very simple before it's time to say goodbye. Even with a little bit of tuning issues, I'm okay with that. It's a beautiful tune, though. Yeah, so that's Spotify banger.

Keep it going. Keep it going. Okay, got you, got you. That brushwork. That brushwork up high here. Yeah, I'm not seeing anything here about if it was on any kind of huge playlist or anything. It might just be because it's such a beautiful tune, but it got all the attention on the Spotify,

which is crazy. We don't know what the algorithm. 2.2 million and this has 23 million. And every other track is in the hundreds of thousands. Most of them are like 300,000, 180,000. Not enough. Come on, folks. Yeah. But that's just very interesting that that's the one that has so many more listens.

Yeah. Spotify banger. It's not that it's not deserving, but it's just interesting. Yeah, if anybody knows, please, even if you're listening to this on the pod or watching, go to the YouTube channel. We have a YouTube channel, a bespoke YouTube channel called You'll Hear It. All right. Go there and leave in the comments. was up with that. Was up.

Remember the frogs? Sorry, squirrel. The frogs. Was up? Those weren't frogs. Those were frogs, sir. The Budweiser frog. Those frogs were bud.

Why? Zer. The was up were dudes on the phone. Peter. You're right. I conflated. I conflated those stories. I just want everybody to know.

As good of a jazz pianist as Peter is, he's terrible at pop culture. No, I knew both. I just conflated. his thing. What's up? You know, like the frogs. But you know what I was talking about. What's up?

You know, like Spudge McKenzie. What's up? Spudz McKenzie. What's up? I thought you knew about. They were both Budweiser commercials. I thought you knew about the 90s. I guess they were actually,

I don't think they were from the same Super Bowl. They might have been from Super Bowl's back to back. The was up and the Budweiser frogs. But they were definitely. You know what? it's going to be egg on your face if it turns out one of those occurred and somebody puts it in the comments in 1997 when this very album songbook came out then who's the cultural prognosticator i don't know what prognosticator i don't know either it sounded cool though uh peter let's do some

categories man okay speaking of frogs let's do over underdog okay all right this is when we talk about things that might be overrated might be underrated the was up was that was kind of underrated it was overrated at first and then it became I'm bringing it back. Okay. So you and Michael Scott are bringing it back. That's right. Okay. This whole album is underrated. Okay. Apparently

except for before it's time to say goodbye which seems to be overrated from it in relation to the others. No, I think this album although it's always interesting to get, you know, because to me it's not talked about enough or a lot but maybe it's the circles I'm running it.

I hear a lot of influences of this album on the years. So obviously people are listening to this and paying attention to it. Musicians know about this album, right? But I really think that this is a strong contender for, and we'll talk about this when we get to the Apex Mountain, but for Best Jazz Album of the 90s?

Well, let's talk about it now. Let's go through it here. So jazz albums of the 90s, what do we've got? We've got the people who are sort of leading the charge. The Marsalis is still leading the charge, especially Branford. He's putting out some amazing albums. People music, I believe, was 90s.

That's a great record. Yeah. With some of these same musicians on it, in fact. But then you have the new generation coming along. Yes. You got your Roy Hargroves, your Christian McBrides, your Braddell, your Braddow's, your Meldow's, your Joshua Redmond, your Kenny Garrets. Yep.

And they're all putting out albums. You got your Benny Greens coming out. Those Blue Note Benny Green albums with Christian McBride and Carlisland are not to be slept on. You got your Pat Mathini, who's a little older, but Pat Mathini. He's put on some of his best records. He's putting out some of his... You've got your Kenny.

I mean, Kenny, you got your Keith Jared. Ever heard of him. We can't even talk about him without getting blocked on this, though. We can't play his music. E. Sam's going to block us just for mentioning his name. Some of the great, great. There are some really good 90s, trio 90s records for me to keep Jared. There's some Herbie stuff.

There's the new standard is this same year, I believe, 97 or 98 maybe. You're right, right. So that's a contender. Herbie's always a contender. So maybe this album isn't underrated. There's also some great vocal albums coming out. You got a lot of Cassandra Wilson that sounds really good. You got Jackie Terrace on making Blue Note albums.

You got some good Diane Reeves records. And some great Diane Reeves records. There's a lot of good music in happening in the 90s. But I would say... Nicholas Payton. Nicholas Peyton. Come on, you can just keep them coming, man. There's some good stuff.

Oh, 90s. Yeah. I think the cats were swinging. I believe there's... Well, I would put this up there with any of them. So I think as far as like how impactful this has become. Maybe not at the time, but certainly since, I would say songbook is as impactful as any except for.

Or maybe you could say that those Brad Mell, the Art of the Trio albums were maybe a little more influential totally on the entire landscape. Yeah, yeah. You know, and certainly, like, they were super popular and sort of like was born this whole like subgenre, you know, shoegaze. Yeah. Kind of vibe. Oh, we forgot about like, shoegays shoegays. We forgot about Shirley Horn, Joe Henderson, all that classic. Joe Henderson.

I mean, there's a lot of classic 90s recordings. Okay, I'm gonna pull back on that one. My bad. But, okay, I'm gonna tell you an underdog on this record, Jeff Watts grew... Before you pull back on that.

I just want to say, there's still a case to be made that this might be the best jazz album in the 90s. I think this is in the top five, at least. You know what? I'm gonna put out there? I don't know about that.

Although, I agree. Absolutely, it's in the discussion. It's so listenable. It's crazy listenable. Yes, listenable from beginning to end. I think this is the final. finest jazz album. It doesn't get any finer in this.

I think it's as listenable as one of those Joshua Redmond mid-90s albums, but the playing might be a little more intense, a little bit better. So I don't know. We'll see. I mean, how it all pans out. This is, this is,

okay, we're going to wait. We're going to wait until we get to Apex Monk. I got a new one too for that. But just, yeah, I want to throw in there, Tane's ability to groove because he's such a technician. He's so interactive. he can play over the bar line. He's got the five rhythms.

You're saying that's underrated, underdog. No, his just ability to groove. Like when he just starts out grooving. That's the underdog. That's the underdog. Like, he's not given enough credit. Like for his... He's a bomb dropper.

He's a bomb dropper, but he can do that while keeping that back. And then he's got this weird way of combining... I think he's the finest, like, swing drummer, quote, unquote, that has that undercurrent of a backbeat. Does he have his flurry game together? No, he's not really a flurrier. Yeah.

No, but you know what I'm saying? And then Tain, is he the most influential genre of his generation? I think so. I think so. Once you get past Elvin and Tony, and you get into... We're going to talk more about Tane on Apex Mountain, because I think there's a discussion about this era of Tane that we should have. And I do think also, one other underdog, or maybe it's an overdog,

is Kenny Garrett's... And really, this whole quartet's mastery of the epilogue. You're saying he plays more after he's done, is what you're saying. You take it a second helping. But when we heard that second... I mean, in the wrong hands, that becomes such a self-indulgent. Like, I remember my dad used to be like, yeah, like, he'd come to different shows or just be talking about jazz.

He's like, man, I mean, my dad loves jazz and, like, he's a musician. And he's like, he's like, he's not a jazz musician, but he knows a lot about it. But he's like, man, the one thing that irks him about, like, especially when he comes to hear me, he's like, when you guys hit the last chord, just let it sit there. Like, you're doing all this. Snapabababab do, boo, boo, sco, do, but do, bao, bo, but do. Yeah, definitely don't do that. No, he just says there's a lot happen.

But this is an example. Are you going to arpeggiate up every last chord? Yeah. But I think that in this, like this is beyond that. This is like over a minute sometimes of just extra badassery. Yeah, but this is again in the lineage of the John Coltrane quartet. Yes. Where this roboto or even just like giving space at the end and beginning of songs is part of the sound.

Yeah. It's part of the composition. It really is like an epilogue. like an epilogue. You know, you've read a book where the epilogue is just like, you know, I want to thank Harry and Susie and my wife or whatever, or just sort of an add-on. But the real book finishes, and you

can't or can't read it. But then there's some books, I can't think of one now, but I've definitely read some that there's, the epilogue is like so interesting and takes you to another place. You know, it's a real, and that's what happens on this record, and I think it's, they're not given enough credit for that being part. And it kind of continues

things to the next tune in a really interesting away. This is a great album to listen to from beginning and it's 10 tunes. There's no weak moments. It's super well balanced and I love it. Hot take. All right. Let's do some Apex Mountains, Peter. Okay. Can I start it off? Can I start it off? Kenny Kirkland. I'm going to say

this is his Apex Mountain. You think that this era is, this record specifically is his Apex Mountain. Yes. If I were to say if someone were to say, wow, I've never heard of this guy, Kenny Kirkland, what should I listen to? I would say, well, if you want to hear the best he's ever sounded, you could do worse than this record.

I don't know. I'm going to say the whole period between like 85 and to the end 90 was maybe his apex mountain. A little falling off. That five year period for him might have been. I mean, he's making all these albums with Brantford. Great stuff. Stuff with Winton, Black Codes as 85. He's making all that stuff with Sting, although he does that into 96. Yeah, but this is the thing. Black Coats, I love that record. I love Kenny's playing on it, one of the most

influential records, records, for me personally and for a number of people. Playing with Disney Gillespie, Elvin Jones. That's a great record on GRP. That's a killing record. But I'm saying, like, I don't think, I think this is the finest, Kenny, like, you get the full breath. Now, I am conflating a little bit with live performances I heard with this

band. I just feel like it was the intersection of, like, the perfect band and like playing. I mean, he was great. I loved him with Brantford. Crazy People music. I would put that whole run with Brantford as his apex. We were talking about it for an album.

For one album? That's what we're doing here today, buddy. I don't know. I don't know. I think this is his finest playing on any other. You don't think Crazy People Music? I mean, it's great. I love that record.

All right. But I just think Kenny goes to another. I think there's more width to his playing. There's more depth. And now it's not more depth. I think it could be 90s. 9091 actually crazy people music mo better blues into his only solo album yeah and that's a great record but i think that this his playing on this is i mean that's more like he's getting into more

different kinds of things and it's his record okay that's hard to compare okay but i'm saying like if i had to if i had to go to the desert island with one kennie kirkland one record with kentie kirkland only would be this you think this is kennie garrett's apex mountain so that's harder to say because i i mean i think that his lad, like this, what's the record? The ancestors, his last record, they came out like a year ago or whatever, is amazing. But don't you think this is his legacy album? I mean, this is probably, yeah.

But I mean, I don't think that there's anything. I mean, your legacy is your entire career and your being in the world, but. He's playing with Miles when he was super young. I know, I know, I know. But I think this is, again, he created a 10 album standards. Like modern standards. Yeah, it's probably Kenny Garrett's.

You know. But trilogy, which was right before this or two records before this is an incredible record. I mean, he's made incredible records, but I don't know. This might be. There's a case to be made. Nat Reeves. Matt Reeves, Apex Mountain, I think. I think you're right about that. He's had an amazing educational career as a teacher and head of the program there at the Hart School of Music.

But he's always played. He's been playing with Sarah Hanahan, friend of the pod, friend of ours here. She came up under him. I mean, he's had his fingerprint on some of the great young players, but I think recording-wise, yeah. I agree. All right, let's talk about Jeff Tane Watts. This is a complicated one. Because talk about just like, is he just apexing his whole career? Like he hasn't had a, when I can see too many artistic or commercial valleys.

When you look at his discography, it's pretty unbelievable once he gets going. I think there's a couple of eras. I mean, it's hard. He got a Guggenheim Fellowship in 2017. You know what I mean? Like, so he's like doing stuff here into his, Jeff Watts. Into his 50s and 60s, he's still. he brings his A game.

Like he comes at, I played with him some, and actually the first time I played with him, I was 15 years old, and he helped me out a lot. I was sitting in, and I didn't know what I was doing, and he looked at me and was playing and given that groove and welcomed me in, and like kind of a pivotal moment for me, 16, 15, 16. I think you can make some cases similar to Kenny Kirkland

that it could be like sort of an apex, maybe not album, but like period. Yeah. Could be that mid-80s, 85. I mean, 85 through 87, they won with Winton three Grammys in a row. Yeah, but the Grammys are full of shit. We know that. And then he won with Brantford in 92, but that...

Which record? That mid-90s. That's for, I heard you the... I heard you twice the first time. That's a great record. Yeah, and they were nominated for Crazy People Music and Requiem and Contemporary Jazz. They won for Contemporary Jazz and Eternal. So I think you could make a case.

However, I'm going to make it actually, and I wasn't on board with this at first, but since, like, I've kind of looked here, Listen to the run, Tain goes on, between 95 and 2000. You ready for this? Between 95 and 2000. So first of all, his own stuff, the only album he makes between 95 and 2000 under his own name is Citizen Tane, which might be his most influential album as a leader. Kenny Kirkland is on that as well. Incredible.

But in that sort of mid-90s, he makes two albums with Michael Brombs. record, two blocks from the edge was incredible. Time is of the essence on verb, which is incredible. He makes two albums with Joey Calderazo, simply music and Joey Calderazzo self-title on Columbia. He makes two albums with Kenny Garrett, songbook and simply said, both incredible. He makes a ton of more stuff, but it makes live in New York with Stanley Jordan. He makes The Maze with Kikowsky. He makes beauty burning with Joe Locke. He makes, of course, a ton of music

always with Brantford, but including the Dark Keys, Requiem, contemporary jazz, which he won a Grammy for. Dark Keys. That could be Apex Mountain, Jeff Tain Watts. That's what I'm saying. Or Bloomington. That was early. This whole run here from 95 to 2000, he makes art

for him with Greg Gospy. He makes two albums with Danilo Perez, which are probably DeNo Perez's, like, most impactful albums, honestly. like. And he's on the Tonight Show every night for, well, that was a little earlier. It was a little earlier, but dude. Yeah.

He's, and there's more I'm leaving out here, including stuff with like Billy Childs. And, I mean, there's like, it's a hell of a run. Yeah, he's on a lot of records with really great people because he's really good. But I'm saying like, duh, that period, he's. People call him because they like he. Might be, that whole period might be this, like, huge career artistic. I mean, I hope he took a rest at some point, like, 2000, because it's like he's working all the time, obviously. I mean, great for all of us, but it's really incredible

when you go through his discography at that. Specifically, I mean, it's nonstop. Yeah. But specifically at that time, it's kind of nuts. He was, I mean, we were all riding that way, but he was really like, that was just a great period for making jazz albums. Like the major labels were still doing it for Warner Brothers,

all that. It did fall off after, what was that? When the CD era died. Yeah. Is this Apex Mountain for 90s jazz? We talked about it. Maybe, maybe not. I'm going to say yes.

I'm going to say yes, too. I'm going to say, is this an Apex Mountain for all originals album? I'm going to say there's love supreme. That's right. What you said and say. I mean, that's what maybe pushes it up for the 90s albums for me. I mean, kind of blue is an all original's album.

Yeah, but it's not all originals from one person. I know, but it's still. Kind of, it is. It is. That's true. But this is like, these are all, yeah, okay, so we're going to say no. Is it Apex Mountain for, singable songs that are also incredibly meaty to improvise over.

So I think the magic trick that Kenny Garrett pulls here is you can sing and whistle and remember every melody. They're all beautiful. Yeah, it's an incredible collection of songs. And it's called songbook, I think, for reason, that they then thrash over in this beautiful way. and that is such a rare thing. Usually it's like if it's a song that's... Yeah, if it's like a modern tune

that's like great to improvise over, it's got all these hits and crazy shit happening. This is like real songs that then they just like melt your face with. And that is incredible. Might be the apex mountain for that. Yeah, even the burner, the burnout, the two down and one across, you know,

is like... Dda-d-d-d-do-d-d-d-d-d-d- And it's totally singable. It's so great. Yeah. Do be, do be, do be, do be. We played the ballad. I mean, like, this is like, this could be Apex Mountain for, like, playable and singable.

Like, playable and, and, uh, listenable. Yeah, listenable and, yeah. What about, I got one more for you. Okay. Apex Mountain for a new category. Okay. The epilogue. It might be.

The second help. It could be the apex mountain. It could be the height of the epilogue, yeah. I mean, there is a certain gentleman named John Coltrade who died in 1967. we would want to throw into that. Yeah, and don't forget there are a lot of live Miles recordings. Lots of epilogues happening.

Yeah, yeah. But this is, yeah, this is in the conversation for sure. Brad Meldow stuff too. Yeah, oh, Keith Jared. Keith. That's different, though. I think that, I think Keith might be the epilogue king. Yeah, but that's beyond a second helping. That's like going to a whole

other restaurant. That's like a second meal. It is kind of like you're eating the, the leftover chicken in the fridge when you get home for sure. Okay, so how about some awards? The John Coltrain Theft Award. Okay, refresh me on that and our dear listeners. So who stole this record? I'm going to say, I'm going to say Kenny Garrett

with the second solo. Kenny Garrett stole his own record by coming back with those epilogues. Well, how do you steal your own record? We asked KG. He did it. Lou Donaldson had a thing when they first were building a Starbucks in Harlem

on 125th Street. This is like in the, this might have been the 80s even in the early 90s, when they're like gentrifying and like rebuilding or whatever the hell what's going on, 125th Street. And there's a bunch of musicians around talking. And Lou Donaldson is there. And they're like, man, this is horrible. Like they're bringing Starbucks into this historic African American neighborhood.

It's going to be gentrified. It's going to be commercialized, you know, with corny Starbucks. And at the grand opening, they're having Kenny, of all people, they're having Kenny G. Not Kenny Garrett. The other Kenny G., who we listened to him. Of course. He was a prime investor. play, right, play at the thing. And Lou Donaldson told him, was like,

y'all so stupid, Kenny G. Oh, that's his company. He owned the joint. How you're going to kick a man out of the? He owned a joint, you know? That was his retort to them, which I thought was good. So yes, Kenny Garrett owns a joint.

How are you going to kick a man out? What about the Cecil Taylor taking it out award, Peter? I mean, I think Tane kind of takes it out. But Kenny Garrett, I mean, I would say Tane, actually. Who you got for that? Yeah, I'll say Tain as well.

I initially was going to say Kenny Garrett, but I think Tain takes it out. What about the Oscar Peterson overplaying award? Well, you can make a case. Kenny Garrett with this first. For the second helpings, you could also make a Tane case.

I'd say it would be Tane, because he's in the spirit of Oscar Peterson, he's really playing on top of a lot of a soul. But it's so perfect. It's so effective. It's not perfect. It's effective. It's not a negative overplaying.

It is a. Okay. Finally, the MVP. who won the album, Peter? I mean, I'm going to go with an underdog and say, Nat Reeves won a record. I agree. Strangely enough, I think he's only got like one or two souls on it,

but he holds it down. He holds it down. I totally concur with that. Concurrents adhered to. All right, who are our first call subs? If Kenny Kirkland can't make the piano seat for this session, who are you calling first? I'll tell you who I'm calling first.

He's sitting right across for me. No, Peter Martin. I would call you first at this time. Are you kidding me, dude? You would slay this. make the gig because I love this band and this music and I listen to it. You would slay this one. But no, but I'm going to put it.

That would not be the right call. Not if you could have called anybody. I'd say Joey Calderazzo. Joey Calderazzo would be good too. Would be because like his extensive understanding, extensive and nuanced influence and we're all influenced by Kenny Curdle, but Calderazo takes it to another level. I think you could make a case. And he played with Tane and with Bramford.

You know, there's. Yeah. You could also make a case for Gonzalo and Danilo and Brad Meldow. Gonzalo would be a note-worthy choice because there'd be a lot of notes being made. A lot of notes, but I think it would fit. Saxophone, if the man himself, Kenny Garrett couldn't make it.

Well, if we're thinking Alto, Steve Wilson comes to mind. That comes to mind. Because he would do it his own thing, but he could nail all this stuff. What about the other Kenny G? Would you call Kenny? Well, he has the name. You could be like, on saxophone,

Kenny G. Instead of Kenny Garrett. It'd be weird. Brantford, too. Brantford is obvious because of half his band. Josh. Josh Redmond could have jumped in there. I don't know about that.

that one actually. I don't know if that would have been a good fit. He was playing a little alto around this period too. Yeah, but I just don't know just if that just would have been a great fit for this sound. Josh Redmond canceled off this substitution. We've got some stalwartes that we would usually say. Herbie Ron Hutch. Herbie Ron Hutch. Herbie Ron Hutch could be on anything. Herbie Ron Hutch could be on about any record, honestly. Hurtch is so bad, he moved into a previous generation legendary rhythm section. I've never heard Hutch play on any record where he didn't fit in seamlessly. Honestly, I've never heard a record Hutch has played on.

Gregory Hutchison is who we're talking about. Ope Studio artist, friend of the pod. I've never heard him play on anything where he didn't meet the music where it is and still be himself. I think that's an incredible feat. And Hutch would be able to come in like a last minute sub. He could be listening to this album, even if he hadn't heard this band. He would listen to the album for a couple hours while he's flying to the city.

and would learn all these tunes. Of course. Like he's got that ability and that kind of, that grit to do that. Bass McBride, it was obviously the man. It wouldn't be a problem. I think CT, Chris Thomas.

Chris Thomas doing his thing at this time. Would be great. Rubin Rogers. It would be a young Rubin Rogers, but he would be ready to go. And I think at this time, too, you'd have to put Larry Grenadier in there as well. Yes. A little grenadine syrup in there.

And then drums. You got Tony Williams as a sub. Yeah, he did. And then Brian Blade. Brian Blake could jump in there. I think those are all good, all good choices. All right. The spoke genre, Peter, what do you got?

Okay, I'm going with, and maybe you could even tell from my reaction as we were listening, this is perma stank face jazz. Perma stank face jazz. Permissank face, I like that. Because you can get stuck in that stane. I mean, it's just, it's Tane. It's everybody. It's Kenny Garrett.

What am I talking about? It's Kenny Kirkland. It's not Reeves. But it's just like there's so much, even on like the ballads, it's just such to me, you know what it is? I think some people, I'm still concerned about the, this nabometer and I'm interested. We'll see how goes.

Because I feel like this is one of those records when I tell people how much I love it, they're like, oh yeah, you would love this record. You know, like a little bit, a little bit of a gaslighting or condescension. We'll see. And I think it's because it's such, there's such, it's so obviously great to me, but it's also like, it's not a cryptic record. You know what I mean? It's just like laying it out there, just like the grooves and every, it's not like,

oh, let me listen to it. It's imminently and eminently enjoyable, I think. Oh, it's imminently and eminently? Yes, because I can't remember which is the one I want to use. I'm going to say it's both, you know. What do you got for? I got two. I got the first one, unc jazz.

Unc jazz. Like UNC, like Tartreheels? Like your unc. This is the kind of jazz. Your unc is in Chapel Hill? Old Unk really loves this jazz. I'm looking at UNC. And then I've got my other one is Pfeather, Blazer, Burner Jazz.

You know what? You know how that looks. A nice pleather. 90s pleather blazer. A little earlier than this, though, perhaps. Pleather blazer burner jazz. It's hard to say,

but it is an important genre. Pleather blazer burner jazz. I like it. And unc jazz. Unk. Unc. Accoutrements. All right.

The cover. Let's look at the cover. It's fine. I mean, it's a 90s cover. It's a mid-90s cover, right? It's a good shot. It's Brooklyn. Is Brooklyn in the house?

Or is that Lower East Side? What's happening there? I think the jumbled letters. If it were just that shot, what are the letters say? I think it's supposed to say like... Jazz? Jazzy.

Kenny? Garrett, maybe? I don't know. Yeah, that is a little weird now that I think of it. Or maybe it's going to be something obviously that people in the comments are going to be like,

you idiot, it's music notes. Yeah, but it's just, it would be, I think, yeah, it's fine. Kenny Garrett's pants and, wait, that's all, I can tell you that's real leather, but that's almost a pleather blazer situation there. No, he's, he's,

He's got his... He's got the drip going, for sure. He looks great. Is I call it coofy? Cuffet? Yeah, I mean, that was... She's her on point. Everything looks good.

Hot takes, Peter. My rant for this, hot taken slash rant. My rant for this is what happened to singable melodies? Why can't we have both? Why can't we have singable melodies and slang and solo?

He's angry. I just don't wondering because I like both. Are you asking for a friend? I'm asking for me. All right. Okay. That was a rant.

I got a hot take. Okay. Two days in the story. studio with the right quartet, the right engineer, can produce a stellar and timeless jazz. That's a hot take. That's all you need. Yeah.

If they had pushed this into one, I don't think you would have gotten. Like, I kind of know how these sort of sessions went down around that time. Yeah. And like three, four, you don't really need, although that occasionally would happen. Not when you're at this level. And they were like a working group at the way of this time. But, I mean, two days, that's like nicely between, it's not luxurious, but it's not like, it's not a one-day crisscross session.

Yeah. Shout out crisscross. Some great records, but you're not going to make this in one day, I don't think. That's true. Now I'm going to find out they record everything

on the first day and they just chilled the second. Yeah, yeah. The snobometer, I have a seven. I have a seven. I think it's a little too snobby for Aunt Linda,

but I think it's not quite snobby enough for Ethan Iverson. Yeah. I don't know. I'd be curious to hear what a snob would say about this one. Yeah, I think it's so right down the middle

in a very, a little bit of a cryptic way. To me, like, after you listen to us and understand this record, you realize how direct of a record it is. You know who transcends snob and not snob is Kenny Kirkland. Like, he always... I've never met any...

He's the snob-snop. I've never met any musician who I think, who I, like, really respect them and think they're really good at what they do. Yeah. Who don't love Kenny Kirkland, even if they don't play like him. Yes.

Like, there's a deep amount of respect. And he's on, like, Sting records and Milded other blues. Like he's the ultimate antist now. But I mean, he is very much a pianist pianist. Like he's the one that I think from his, from this generation that everybody, again, like even if it's not their number one, you know, I mean, he's almost to that level of like a Keith Jarrett, it's not there in terms of like.

It's true. In that regard. He's almost like. For different reasons. But, you know, Herbie. I hear what you're saying. Herbie is another level, I think, just because he's been around. Herbie's his own category almost.

Yeah. But I, so I have five. for the snobometer because... Right in the middle. Yeah, because I think it is so singable. It is so accessible. This is a very accessible record in terms of how it sounds and everything.

I think snobs don't like that. It burns hard, though. It does burn hard. That turns off Aunt Linda. She doesn't like that. Okay, I got through there. And Ethan Iverson probably loves this record. So there's that.

I don't know. The snobobotter is weird. I don't know. The stomoboters... Okay, we got to get Ethan Iverson into the comments because we know that he listens to the pod. Well, we don't know that. We know he's a great writer.

No, we did. We know that, but we don't know if he listens at all. I'm going to reach out. But let us know, and then this will be an invitation to Ethan to get in the comments himself, whether or not you think Ethan Iverson would love this record or not, because we don't know. You feel like you know Aunt Linda better than you know Ethan I don't. Well, it's because I've known her my whole life. All right.

Here is the Apex Mountain of, going to get a little meta. The Apex Mountain of Our Ratings. we calling this a framework, an album evaluation framework. Yeah. A. F. Our categories. So this is the Apex Mountain. This is the Piaz de Resistons. Okay. Is Songbook by Kenny Garrett? Yeah. Kenneth Garrett. Don't think that's his name.

Nope. Not sure. Um, is songbook better than K.O.B. Kind of blue by Miles Dewey Davis. No. Okay. Can you ask me the same question, please? Is songbook better than Kind of Blue? Yes. Well, until next time. You'll hear it.