You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Playing for Free

Episode Date: June 11, 2019

Today, Peter and Adam talk about the intricacies of playing for free. Wanna send a SpeakPipe of your own? Check out the bottom of the page at http://www.openstudionetwork.com/podcast.Want a FREE You'll Hear It sticker? Listeners in the United States can go to https://youllhearit.com/stickers/, and the first 20 to leave a review and/or comment will get an exclusive sticker mailed to them.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel and leave a comment for this episode.Interested in more jazz advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter & Instagram at:https://www.facebook.com/heyopenstudiohttps://twitter.com/heyopenstudiohttps://www.instagram.com/heyopenstudio See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Adam. What's up? What's your day rate? Free 50. I'm free 99. I'm Adam Annas. And I'm Peter Martin. You're listening to the Ull Here at Podcast.

Daily jazz advice coming at you, no matter what, no matter what, what, what, what, coming at you. No matter what, no matter where, no matter who sometimes. It doesn't matter. You're getting your daily jazz advice. Good to be back with Peter, even if it's a thousand miles away. Yeah, no, it's good to be back. and this is belated, but I really enjoyed the guest hosting last week, the shows that you did with our friend, Jeffrey Clap. Those were awesome, man.

I had such a good time. I was actually running along the Potomac River in our nation's capital, the District of Columbia with my AirPods in. Big shout out to Apple. Keep on AirPod. But listening to you guys and really, you know, I don't want to say a little tear came out. A little tear did come up, but I think that's because I stubbed my toe at one point. Yeah, I thought you would like that. Oh, you didn't like the.

the episode where we just kissed your ass for 10 minutes? That's when the little tear came out. I was like, wow, that's good. Yeah. But I did. I'm glad. I don't remember if I text you. I meant to,

you had a good quote that I'm going to tell my family to put on my tombstone, which is annoyingly, was it annoyingly great? Anointly talented. Anointly brilliant. Annoyingly brilliant. Yeah. That's going to be my tombstone.

It's true. You're good. And man, is it annoying? It's terrible. If only my personality was better, I wouldn't be annoying. But I'd just be brilliant. But you know what?

We all have to have goals. So it's all good. All right. Well, my goal is to get, I don't know about you. My goal is to get paid when I play music, but we have a speak pipe here from Zoom from Vancouver. Let's see what this is all about. Let's hear it. Hey, guys.

It's Zoom from Vancouver again. Hope you guys are doing well in St. Louis. I wanted to ask you guys your opinion about playing gigs for free. I know this is a controversial area. A lot of beginner musicians or amateur musicians. might do it to get some experience performing in front of people. Also, people hear about playing for quote-unquote exposure. And on the other hand, you could argue that it devalues live music.

It makes it harder for professional musicians to make a living in music. But on the other hand, if you're just starting out or you're an amateur or you're a beginner, how are you going to get experience playing in front of people? And maybe it depends on the venue, maybe it depends on the situation. but I'd love to hear you guys opinions on playing for free and kind of the implications and thought process around that. And if that's cool or not cool or depends on the situation. All right, thanks, guys. Peace.

That's a good question. Thank you, Zoom, for sending that in. And again, if you want to leave us a voicemail, you can leave us the speak pipe. You can speak into the pipe. You go to you'll hear it.com. You can sort that out. And we're happy to answer your question.

As long as it's good. It's not good. That's right. And Zoom is one of our most prolific questioners. Yeah, this guy always has great questions, though, you know? He's starting to stretch out a little. He's getting comfortable on his length.

I like that. Only Zoom can do that. Everybody else, keep it short. You haven't earned the right yet. Yeah, so... What do you think about this, Adam? I mean, for me, at this point in my life, there's very few situations where this is okay

to play for free. Yeah. But I have done it, and I don't think it's out of the course. question, I mean, I'm not going to say for exposure or anything else, but if I, if there's something that I believe is a stepping stone for greatness, I don't care how much it pays. Like, if I think that this worth, worth it for me to do musically and professionally, and it doesn't cost me anything. Like, I'm not going to be out or whatever. I will certainly consider it. Selfishly, I wouldn't, like, do that for anybody else's project. But

if it's like, if it's my baby, if it, you know what I mean? If it's like, if it's, thing you're trying to create something. I'll work with people. I mean, I work with people on rates all the time because I, with the idea of like, but I'm going to build an audience and I'm going to get you back later. You know, like, I'm going to, you're going to pay me eventually because I believe in this. But sometimes that's, I mean, I think that's just how business works sometimes. You know what I mean? It's like you have to show in good faith. You're willing to give a little, uh, to get a little. And I do believe too. And I know you think this is the same way is like there's a little bit of, of, yeah, pay me. But I, I don't.

also have to deliver on that. Like, like, yeah. If nobody shows up ever, well, that's not a good thing. That's not good for your business. That's not good for my business. So I have to deliver on being able to put butts in seats or downloads off of Spotify, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, I got to be able to prove my worth. And if I believe in myself, I can build on that. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think you absolutely hit it on that hit it on the head for a, you know, framing this as, as what you are, which is a, you know, experienced professional player in his prime. That doesn't mean that if you're,

because I know Zoom asked about amateurs, too, that's a different kind of mindset. It might not be a different level player that much, but it's like you're portraying yourself, I mean, you're presenting yourself as an amateur. Yeah. So that's saying both to yourself and to a presenter or somebody that you're going to work with,

that I'm doing this only for fun, not as a professional. It doesn't mean you're not serious. It doesn't mean you're not great or whatever, but it's that kind of mindset. But when we put on a professional thing, whether we're 13 years old or 83, it doesn't make a difference. You're like, I'm a professional of what I'm doing. I need to be paid what my worth is. Now, that's kind of where the rub usually comes in. It's like how, because it's a moving target, but it's also like how much self, how self-aware are you for what your worth actually is?

Are you willing to do the homework and really know what the market is, know what you're values, know what you bring. I mean, we all think we bring great value to everything. But, you know, as you said in terms of delivering on the project, on the product, and we're kind of the product, but also like what our music is and what we bring to the table, maybe we're accompanying someone. Maybe we're part of an arranging thing. I mean, there's all different things, but there's always a value proposition there. So if it's a band leader hired you, or if you're dealing with a club owner, if you're going on a tour, whatever it is, be aware of what the value proposition that you deliver and what its value is.

And then you don't have to hit the number right on it. You're doing good if you're within 20% of your true market value. And I think once you do that, you can be comfortable, you know, doing whatever. If you're starting out, play for free, pay to play if you have to. I mean, look, you just got to play because you're playing the long game. Yeah, you got to play a lot. I want to be able to. Like what we're talking about is, yeah, what we're talking about is like kind of the

promise land of like I'm a working professional. I know my value. There's a market there. There's enough scarcity, and I can provide something that maybe not nobody else can, but I'm part of an elite group that can provide this. When you're starting out, you're not that. So know that. And this is a very competitive field.

So there's a lot of people wanting to do this. So the lowest price is actually going to be zero. And it can even dip below that. So don't be like, well, I'm worth more than that. Well, not if the market doesn't say you are. But maybe you'll be lucky enough to stick around long enough to find what that is. but at the beginning you got to carry the water. You know that term.

That's kind of an old school term. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean, though. I know what you mean. Yeah. I agree. You got to carry the water at first. And I love what you said about research about where you are in the market and what, you know, in general, what your value is.

And that changes depending on the gig. You know what I mean? Like I know we both do things that artistically we know we're going to get a lot about or maybe even, you know, to, like branding-wise, we're going to get something out of that we would do not as high of a price as it. if we're doing a private corporate, you know what I'm saying? Like it just depends on what the situation is a lot of these times. I would say, you know, play for, if you're amateur play for free as much as you can just go out and play, but also don't undercut pros.

Like don't go to like a restaurant or club that has, pays regular musicians and say, well, I'll do this for free. And if you're a pro, you know, expect that you have to provide some kind of value to the venue. Like I know too many pros. around here anyway. You think just because they can play 120 standards out of the real book, they deserve some kind of paycheck for that. You know what I mean? Like, oh, well, if people really cared about this, and I was like, man, you can't make people like what you, just because

you want to do this specific thing. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you have to, you have to kind of come to them a little bit and make something that people want to hear and try to get people out to hear you. It takes work. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's like, you know, we've talked about this actually I think pretty recently in terms of just marketing different and this being a new day and age in terms of musicians you know we can't be dinosaurs and be like no we just come in where artis and play I mean times have changed and we need to keep up with those we need to be part of the purpose but the process and delivery of that value proposition of our music to our audience whether that's CD whether it's video whether it's live whatever it is we have to be more part of that process and promotion of it social media whatever whatever it is, then we maybe would like to be, or maybe we would like to be in the past. Either that or we kind of got to create our own paradigm on how this is going to be presented. But I come back to the thing of like what's the balance between our humility to the music and then also to the community that we want to be part of.

And that's why it starts at zero and we carry the water. But then balancing that with what our worth is. And I think that they can be balanced. And for me, it's gotten easier and easier to do that. Now, some people will be like, oh, yeah, because you're, working, you're doing gigs or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, I, you know, I think that, and this is probably true for you too, Adam, is like, we still deal with, like, can you do this gig for free?

All the time. And so, I mean, it's not like that never, I mean, Herbie Hancock probably gets asked that every month of course. Of course. Can we come and do this is a great cause or whatever? Yeah, no, there's a ton of great causes. But these things never end. I mean, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, we all see ourselves as a great cause, you know, can we do a little something for ourselves? No, I mean, it is something like, of course you want to. help whatever, but we can't, in general, we can't devalue that part of our business to a point where it's like, you know, we're playing twice a month for free. That's a little silly. They wouldn't ask the chef to provide the food for free. You know what I'm saying. Exactly. Now, what's always ignored me somewhat too is like when they'll ask, you know, if, like, to do something for a cause that you're not necessarily passionate about or don't even know about or they don't even take the time,

to really explain. They're kind of just hiring you. Can you play for this? It's a really great benefit or whatever. And that's fine. There's a lot of different good causes, but they don't realize that we also have causes that we're interested in that we're already donating our time to. But they'll say, can you come and play for totally free? And it's not actually totally free because we're spending our time and our energy and everything. But then everything else, like they even want to fly you there. They're not going to go to the airline and say, oh, we're doing this. You know, they just buy the ticket and the hotel or whatever. or the catering, everything else is being paid, for some reason the musicians are expected and just play for free. Not a big fan of that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Are you a fan of that? I'm not a big fan of that,

but you know what? This is a good point, because I do play for free for causes that I really am passionate about. And I haven't really thought about this before now, but if you were trying to look to get... Because you're impassioned about them. Right, because I love them, right?

And I was just thinking, like, if someone was looking for exposure, what better way to get it than to go to a cause that you really believe in, that you would want to donate your time to and say, listen, I'll play this event for you for free. You know what I mean? And I'll provide the music. And then I'll get the exposure.

I'll get to play out. You'll get free music. I think that's just fine. Like, that's a great thing you can do. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, expand your audience, which is even a little bit selfish or whatever, but that's part of the thing that you are at least getting something back. I mean, I have played many causes that I believe deep.

and even if it wasn't my idea, they asked me, and I'll even, like, bring CDs. I'll tell them, okay, that's cool. I'll play about, but how about, you know, I want to donate 100 CDs too to the people that are the donors or whatever. Right, right. And then that puts my music out there. And a lot of time, then they'll be like, oh, no, we want to pay for these or whatever, and you can work that out.

But it's never just kind of one thing. But, yeah, the best is when you're doing something for free, but it's something you're passionate about. And it's also something that's going to give you, at a minimum, experience in playing. you know and that that can be invaluable and it can put you into places that you haven't been before all right honest honest answer to this question you ready herbie calls herbie calls tomorrow and says peter i want to do a 16 week do a double piano tour i can't pay you anything what do you do i mean i'd probably do it i probably i mean you know what i mean

because i'm getting i mean look herbie you heard that here first herbie you if herbie's listening which I know he's a and my kids are older than yours like I know you still you still have to feed your kids I mean I have to feed my kids too but they're kind of like

they're at the age they can do some hunting and gathering on their own they can get a job yeah I was just thinking of like opportunities I've always said like

whoa this is one of those awkward remote moments I know yeah we're getting a couple of those when we're in person we just slap each other when we don't want them to talk you know No, I mean, I've always said, like, different situations where would you play for free? I've actually never thought of that with Herbie.

I always thought like Stevie Wonder calls and like play backup keyboards. I'm like, yeah, because that's going to be like going to a party. Yeah, I would pay to be in that band for a tour. For sure. Right? Yeah. You don't have to pay me to go have a good time now. For real.

Cool, man. Well, thank you, Zoom for the question. It's a good question. And it's, I think, something a lot of musicians have always grappled with because we do get asked to do this part that we work our whole lives on for free quite often. So the answer is... I've got some ultimate tips for this. Okay, well, let me finish my spiel. No, no, no, I'm done.

That's what I'm saying. I'm throwing it out there. Then you're going to do the spiel. Then people are going to wait. That's the teaser, man. Come on, man. We're getting out of sync here. The blooper reel on this one is going to be...

We're going to do it at the end. The blooper reel for this is going to be amazing. Okay. It's going to be the whole episode. It's going to be the whole episode. So, hey, make sure to go to you'll hear at dot com. Leave us your voice message. Give us a rating and review.

We prefer seven stars. And frankly, we get a lot of seven stars because besides this episode We damn near get only seven stars. Yeah. Besides this episode, all the rest are great. So you can. Like our timing.

I've got rid of them. No, it's really great. Oh, my God. What's our ultimate tip, Pete? Latency is not our friend today. It's not our friend today. This is like one of those awkward. Ultimate tip.

Oh, my God. Oh. OMG, WTF. Okay, ultimate tip. Ready? Yeah. If you are going to do a free gig, it doesn't have to be totally free. A little thing called it.

It's your buddy. You can put one of those out at them? I love a good tip jar. I always, you know, here's an ultimate tip for a tip jar. Can I give you an ultimate tip for a tip jar? Yeah. Pass it around. Don't be shy.

Put on your sparkling personality. Flash. I like to flash my baby blues. and I like to walk around with the bucket and be like, hey, it's great to see you. No shame in that game, and you will make some money. Get up in their grill. No, it's a lot of shame.

You're putting the shame on them. It's all shame. What are you talking about? For real. I'm in. Yeah, yeah. And then I got ultimate tip part two. If we can get our latency and say it,

you can even say it. Where you got? Okay. That's good. I love that. You're heightening the drama. Sell your CDs at your free gig. Oh, that's good.

And as you're selling, maybe you do the same thing with the walk around, passing around, reminding people that they didn't pay. Because if it was a free gig, they probably didn't charge to get in. You definitely don't want to be doing free gigs with their places charging other people. But even if so, you can just bust out some little CD sales, get your music out there, put a little fun. Like, you know, makes it an out of free gig after that. Let it do. All right. Well, until tomorrow.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you'll hear it.