You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Please... Can We Stop Saying Jazz Is Dead Yet?

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Adam and Peter reluctantly wade into the tired old 'Who Killed Jazz?' debate...Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Looking to drop a question? Want to listen to the audio pod? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Adam. Yo. How much do you love the time-worn trope of, is jazz dead? Are you a fan? Oh, it's my favorite discussion topic. It's my favorite YouTube genre. It's my favorite Facebook post genre. I love it.

I could talk about it all day. Okay, well, let's do it. Excellent. This is dead. Dead. Dead. Everything dead. Course.

Cemetery. 7-4. No more. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin. You're listening to the you'll hear it. podcast. Music explore. Jazz explore it? If it's alive, we're going to explore.

If it's still live, we'll explore it. Go to York. It's brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio.js.com. That's right. For, oh. If that URL is still operational, if that's not a dead link. Your jazz less than needs if it's not dead.

Okay, so how is this percolating up again? This time-worn trope of Who Killed Jazz? Let's talk about the variations. Jazz died in 1959. Jazz is dead. Who killed Jazz?

Yeah, there's some subtleties to all of these as well. The jazz died in 1959 is a subtlety that, of course, is a Nicholas Payton hashtag. But there's, I think, a little bit more in the mix with that one. The Who Killed Jazz thing is become... It comes around all the time. It comes around, at least for me on my social media, on like a monthly, weekly basis.

Yeah. There are usually some older musicians arguing about where did where to jazz go where did the gigs go right um and it seems especially in the i think in the grand scheme of our current social media climate for me it's always kind of laughable because my whole social media is filled with very successful people playing music living the life and drawing big crowds and and getting lots of attention for playing some pretty amazing improvised music so i don't i don't really i don't really love it i was being a little facetious on that intro here. Right. And I do think it is. So this came to our attention to the last

few days, I think, because there's a video popping up in the algorithm, at least mine, and you said yours too. And I'm sure other folks that, you know, watch or listen to this podcast are interested in jazz, creative music, whatever, a Who Kill Jazz kind of documentary style video that's out there. So that's kind of why we're talking about what, but it's been an ongoing thing. And I think specifically on YouTube, There is, I don't want to be harsh, but there does seem to be a little bit of a subgenre of like shitting on jazz. 100%. And sometimes it's, and I know oftentimes, if not always, it comes out of a place of love and affection. Yeah, they're not trying to shit on the music.

No. It seems to be out of a frustration of things ain't what they used to be. Could be that, yeah. People are still playing $100 gigs and there used to be club dates for months at a time and all this stuff. Yeah. But I don't, the part I'm not crazy about is there's always a negativity. There's always a controversial side to it. It's a ghettoization of it a little bit too.

It's like putting it into a corner of like this weird, I don't know. It just seems like, also it's not very realistic. And it can be exploitative as well, I would say. It feels a little exploitative, you know. Well, that one does for sure. Yeah. In a way. And I just think it's, I mean, look, it works for certain social media algorithms in that

it's been proven that people will click on things that they have a negative. Like if they don't agree with something. Like in other words, somebody's like, who killed Jess? Wait, is jazz dead?

Wait, what do you mean? Do I agree with that? Like, it riles you up. It riles you up. And then they put it, there's lots of comments on all these videos about like,

yeah, uh, I used to do that. Like, there's a lot of like story. Like, I want to tell my story of, right.

We made a kind of ironic video in the early days of this podcast, Peter. I don't know if you remember this, but it's called, Desperate. Why people hate jazz or why do people hate jazz? And it was us really like being trying to be positive of like people don't actually hate jazz.

It was like kind of a funny title. But we still get so many comments on that every week from people who just say like, people hate jazz because of this. They just want to answer the question of the title. And it was really our first foray into like, oh, that's a clickbait title. We didn't even mean to do it. We were just kind of being cheeky. Yeah.

And then there's this whole genre of YouTuber where we've delved into these before, some of these YouTubers where they just use these titles to like, rile up something and then they'll kind of step away like well I'm just saying I'm not really saying I'm not really saying I'm not really saying and it's all just very like okay you know yeah you're you're sort of promoting your own stuff and your own channel in this way you know we're we're YouTubers too obviously like I'm sure we're not perfect in execution of clickbait versus not clickbait but we try to be genuine in our the way we're conveying things with the way we actually feel about things yeah and sometimes you don't get that impression from some of these right and I think

that there's, look, it's okay to court controversy, I think, to, you know, to step into areas that there might be disagreements or people have strong opinions on. And we've done that. It's also okay to discuss the, like, the economics of the music. Yeah, absolutely. And the place of it, of its standing in the culture, you know, that's all, like, those are great discussions to have. But I do think it's when it's framed of, like, the music is dead or it's dying, it's really just disingenuous because it's not true at all. Well, that's the main thing. It's not true. So when you're saying, you know, when you're laying it out there, you're inviting people to click on it and then be like, wait a second, this isn't true. I mean, it'd be like if it's almost like if you said, you know, the city of St. Louis doesn't exist anymore.

It was bombed out. Everybody left or whatever. We'd all click on that. Wait, what do you mean? Who killed St. Louis? And then you see it. It's like, okay, well, no, it's having some problems or it's not. There's a more nuanced discussion.

And I would say, you know, we've opened ourselves up to some of these with, we, we, we, we've opened ourselves up to some of these with, we. we did a video called the 10 greatest jazz albums of all time. That's probably the most controversial kind of invitation. It's a great video, though. I think it's a good video, but it's also like, but I got a lot of hate on there in the comments in terms of you idiot. Why do you think this? How did you pass this up?

But to me, it's coming from a place of positivity in that I'm not saying, first of all, these are the 10 worst, or I'm not saying the typical 10 that you're thinking of are not great. I'm just saying these are some other ones. And I say that at the beginning of the video. I say that in a comment. So I think there's a way to be a little bit cheeky and fun. and invite some positive controversy

as opposed to maybe what some of these are doing is negative. But please let us know in the comments because maybe we're looking at this in a more nuanced way. One of the main... In a two nuanced of a way, I should say. One of the main themes of a lot of the discussions,

whether those of the YouTube videos or the social media posts, of the like, Who Killed Jazz or is Jazz dead? Or, you know, why are we still playing $100 gigs? One of the themes that I see is that it's a lot of people who have been around for a while, and they kind of long for how things used to be.

And I always think, because I'm, I've been around for a while, too. I'm not, any spring chicken. Like, I was, you know, I was around in the 90s. I was doing stuff.

1990s. Playing gigs in the 90s when there was still loads of club dates and gigs and restaurant gigs and all this stuff, right? But, like, people aren't there as much anymore. Yeah. There's still people who are interested in music. And still want to hear you play.

They really do. They want to hear you. They want to hear what you have to say. But they're not at your local watering hole wanting to hear you play Wayne Shorter anymore. They don't want to leave, like, they're in their house with like an incredible, amazing best in human history array of entertainment at their fingertips at all times. Much of it free. Much of it free. That's where the people are.

Yeah. So like you can reach them. You just have to go to where they are. They are not. You don't have to, but you have the option to. You have the option. So when I hear people say, like, well, club owners need to, like, club owners are trying to get people just in the seats.

Like, they are not, they're, it's a struggle. That's a yeoman's work on another jazz club. Yeah, it's not like you come in and you're playing, you know, Wayne Shorter Tunes for four hours, and it's packed in there, and they're paying you 100 bucks. You know what I mean? Like, and it's hard, like, it's tough out there for live music. And there's, there's no doubt about that. I'm not debating if that's a good or bad thing.

I'm just saying like there are people out there. They do want to hear your music. They do want to spend money or at least like capital of their time. Yeah. And there, which could be revenue towards you, but you have to know where to find them. Right. You have to like be able to adapt and go to where they are. Absolutely.

And I want to go back and kind of unpack some of that because I think that there's a lot of great, you know, realism and ideas and can be inspiration within that kind of a thing. And kind of the opposite of this sort of, you know, negative like, oh, we're never, this is dead, whatever, where we can see some life and vibrancy. There's many wonderful examples. But I just thought of something else, too, when we talk about, like, you know, the clubs and a $100 gig or whatever, we got to remember we have some responsibility as musicians here.

There was a time when just a few blocks from here, great musicians were playing $100 gigs at something called the Chitlin Circlit. Right? There was a Hammond B3 organ in there. we would go in, or our forefathers and four mothers, would go in and play at these establishments, and was music for the people. That's right.

I mean, we just recently celebrated the great Lou Donaldson, who personified this and exemplified it probably better than any musician of the last hundred years. People are drinking, they're dancing, they're having a great time. They're listening to something sophisticated, but it's relaxed, and they're enjoying it. And, like, there's a reason to come out and to hear that.

That's right. At a certain point, the music, in a lot of these clubs changed, and this is not a commentary or derogatory tuss. The music needs to change, and there needs to be other things, but when you're going,

young cats going and playing Wayne shorter and doing stuff in a way that maybe is not as accessible, that's going to change the audience's reactions to the music. So some people can say, well, we're not going to pander down to the musicians. I don't think Lou Donaldson ever pandered

down to the musicians. I think he uplifted to people. You know what I mean? It was an invitation into the music, into the group. It was entertainment. and sophisticated at the highest of levels. So, yeah, we can't all be Lou Donaldson,

but there has to be some responsibility on the musicians. It's a great example, Peter, of someone who adapted to music as it changed and to found the people where they were. I mean, you listen to Alligator Bugaloo. He's finding a massive audience where they're at in their culture's history. Another titan that we lost this week is Quincy Jones, who did the exact same thing. Both those cats could play bebop better than me or you or anybody listening to this podcast.

That's the fact. That is a fact. Hashtag facts. And Quincy Jones also produced thriller. You know what I'm saying? Like, they are meeting people where they are. Yeah. And they're staying relevant and they're staying with the times.

I know we're not supposed to say that. It's jazz musicians. But it's true. Like they are great examples for that. All of our favorite musicians. I mean, listen, there's something to be said for the tradition and making sure that we understand that. But there's also something to be said, again, for being where the people are.

Yeah. playing music that that excites you now. Robert Glasper, would he be an example of that? Great example of that. But I even think like, I know we gas him up all the time, but young Sullivan Forner, young, he's 35 years old, Sullivan Forrener, who is doing things that is very, he's an artist, he's doing artistic things

meant to be in concert environments, right? He's not trying to be, and I don't hear Sullivan complaining that he's not Robert Glasper. Right. You know what I'm saying? Because he's doing something more nuanced and a little bit, you know, it's not at a higher level, but it is meant to be a little bit more of a bespoke genre.

Yeah, it's for maybe a little bit different audience, but a lot of crossover between those audiences too. For sure. Which is fun. But like knowing kind of what you're shooting for, like if you want to play artful music, expect artful crowds. Yeah. You want to play, you know, broader music, expect broader crowds.

Yeah, and I think as an antidote to this jazz is dead trope or who killed jazz, which are kind of interchangeable, I guess. I'll just throw out some random, and we didn't prepare any of these names. This is just reacting off what you're saying, so I'm not trying to exclude or include anyone, but Sullivan Fortner, Jonathan Battiste. I'm thinking of him because I knew them both when they're young.

There's also a great call of someone who's, you know, one album of the year, Grammys. Robert Glasper, we just mentioned him. Bad Plus, just popped in my head because we were talking about Ethan Ivers, even though he's not with them. But just those groups right there, you know,

To me, like, that shows you that nobody killed jazz. No, of course. It's ridiculous. Because people are going to hear them live. And not only that, like, so take something like Sullivan Ford. There's probably more people listening to him, watching videos, him online, Instagram, YouTube, or whatever. With Cecile. With Cecile, absolutely.

Then would have ever done back in the day when the clubs were paying $100. You know what I mean? So there is the question of reach, which is an exciting thing that the internet is. has brought in. Not to mention people like Samara Joy and Lave and all of these artists and Starkey Puppie. We're going to put those kind of bands

into this category as well. Oh, you're putting them in the category of Who Killed Jazz? I got you. I see what you're saying. No, no, no. Of like those, that's jazz adjacent. That's in the tradition of the music.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that they're, I think the music is not only not being killed or tried to be killed. It's, it's, or like on its deathbed or anything like that, I think it's super healthy, super vibrant. Yeah. You know, and that's, I guess, you know,

sue me, I'm an optimist, I guess, but also looking at real world, like, you know what it is to what rubs me the wrong way? We're going to get positive here in a second, don't worry. Staying positive. I'm staying positive on that. No, no, no. I mean, that's that great thing. Like, when we bring up these artists and this music and the fun of sitting here listening,

I mean, Lou Donaldson, who, you know, we just lost from this world, but whose music lives on, was still playing just like three years ago at his yearly, you know, at age 96 at his yearly celebration at Jazz and Lincoln Center at Dizzy's that they do every year for him, came and sat in at his birthday celebration. But there's stuff happening there all the time.

Like there's a lot of, and I know a lot of people probably get to react and be like, well, you're just talking about the prestige gigs. That's not the real world and stuff. But, you know, to your point earlier, there is an accessibility to the music. that can be done by anybody who has the, you know, the potential to dream about reaching an audience.

I'll bring up Emmett Cohen with Emmett's Place as sort of an example. A lot of people would put that as this pandemic outlier. It's like, well, people couldn't go out to hear live music, so yeah, they're going to tune into his Monday night thing. But we're well beyond that now. Like, he's nurtured and appealed and inspired a whole other generation of young straight-ahead, New York-style players that before would have been in the clubs,

or whatever, and reach them all around the world, sending them to New York and jazz schools and all these, and gigs and all these kinds of things in a way that's really kind of unprecedented, I would say. Let's do a couple of things. So first of all, let's make a little bit of a left turn, and let's try to meet some of these people with good faith, maybe where they are.

And talk about, like, working class musicians. Yeah. And how those gigs are, in fact, less than less and less. Yeah. Right? So if we were, if this was 80 years ago, there would be an entire industry of work-a-day, blue-collar musicians

who no one ever has heard of, but they make a living, they're maybe barely able to support a family just by playing the bass or the piano at various restaurants, clubs, radio stations, in various bands,

maybe traveling around the country. In every little city, every town would have enough work to sustain a class of musicians that are not at the super high level. Yeah. And those jobs are not, that's harder and harder to find. There is still, of course, incredible like wedding band scenes and club band scenes and all that stuff.

And then there are like bar bands still, but it's not like it was. It's certainly not like it was in the 40s, 50s, 60s. But I will say, though, that that has been really. replaced with social media, with a place to get your music out. And if you're good, heard by a lot more people than I think you could have as a local musician. There's just, you have to be, you have to understand now how to monetize that. Yeah. It's a lot harder, I think, for especially older musicians than the old stage of, I just go to this, you know, like local club, I meet some people, sit in, I can play. Now I'm starting to work and do gigs or

whatever. Like, it's just a different, it's just a, there's just a different way to go. But I will, like, I think we should sort of talk about that. Yeah. That disappearance of the middle class musician, you know. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's, that's a tough pill to swallow, though, to go from, especially if you're older musician. By older, I mean, like, my age. Yeah. You know, um, to, to make that shift is going to be a pill too bitter to swallow for most. And I get it. Yeah. But there's also like, that's something that's hit the music scene. And some would even say that are way smarter than me and have a more deeper understanding of this,

the middle class jobs in general. You know, it's like where have these things gone? I come from, you know, a family and a tradition of musicians, working class musicians. You know, I mean, my dad, when he was like 11 years old, played, you know, when he was 12 or 11, he started playing in the Charlotte Symphony in North Carolina, which was not a, I mean, it was professional, semi-professional, whatever.

That was people that just had jobs or whatever. And they didn't even have enough players. That's why an 11-year-old kid could get in. Incredible. Especially with how competitive orchestras are now. Yeah, yeah. And it became the North Carolina Symphony, which is a great. I mean, it was really good then, especially, as my dad said, when he was 11.

But he also played when he was in high school in the, like, the NBC affiliates, like, studio orchestra. It was like a local news channels. Yeah, they'd have variety shows on the weekends. Of course. And it'd be like a, what do they call it, like a, they had some kind of, you know, penny pop, whatever was band, where it was like a rhythm section, and then like a violin and a cello and an accordion. and a singer, like a male and a female singer. It was just like they could cover any kind of thing

and like he's making a part. So, I mean, he came out of that classical. But then he taught, you know, at the college level, he taught at the other levels. He got a job playing in the symphony on an instrument that he wasn't even trained. Like, he pieced something together, you know? Yeah, yeah.

But he was also, I would say, like, he's a supremely talented musician. He's incredibly dedicated musician as well. Yeah. And so, like, he, but I mean, he jumped around and did different things and then got to something that, you know, he could support and raised a family with.

Same thing with my mom. And she taught, but she played string quartets. They played at old folks' homes. They played that. I mean, they play, they're working, you know, spreading the music. So I think when you want to do this, you find a way. That's to say, and like I learned that. So I'm from a very privileged standpoint.

I know you telling stories about your parents and their appreciation and love of music. Like, that places us both among many of our listeners, I'm sure, in a privileged position when you connect with the music and understand the culture. Like, I couldn't fix my mouth to. like to go down the road of who killed jazz jazz is dead like that kind of stuff because for me the music is just too it's it's too important yeah you know what i mean and i don't mean important as in being in a library museum but like it's given me too much it feels almost a little to say jazz is dead feels almost a little like uh it's too it's almost not selfish but it feels like a little

self-serving it's self-serving because it's not it's like if i understand that there's with making a living as jazz musician. But you've got to know, too, that's been the case since Bebop. Yes. That's how it is. And there's always going to be different. So, like, when I came along in the 90s,

and I talk with a lot of young musicians now coming up, jazz musicians that are like, they'll see videos of us playing, you know, Roy Hargrove and Greg Hutchinson and stuff that's on YouTube of us playing with little kids in the 90s and everything. And they'd be like, man, we wish it was like back then. And I get that.

But it's also like there was this idealized version, vision of what things were like in the 90s. Like I was on some of the biggest gigs of the 90s. But like I was not getting rich. I was barely, I was doing a lot. I was hustling. That's what I was doing. Same thing I'm doing now.

You know, like I couldn't do a jazz podcast at that time because the technology was not available. We could have been early adopters. The microphone had not been invented yet. Well, no, I guess that. The personal computer was but a... We've been making this podcast. It's 1993.

It's just we started uploading it in 2018. Right. Once we figured out the technology. No, but it's just to say that, like, musically, it is what it was. You can hear what that was. To me, that was a very exciting time and a time of growth or whatever.

But in terms of, like, nobody was getting rich doing it at that time. Like, we used to go do tours where we didn't know when we were coming back from Europe. Like, literally, on a one-way ticket, they're still booking gig. I mean, these are, like, the top gigs.

So I think that, yes, you know, things have changed or whatever, but things were never as great. I mean, I would say the music speaks for itself. Right. So like that music, whatever music from the different periods, we listen to Lou Donaldson, 1952, 57, that was great. I mean, that music lives on in that music. So it's like how connected and how committed to the music are you willing to be. Like that's where the story is. And for listeners, and the thing that bothers me about these YouTube videos a little bit is it's very self, like what do you call it,

navel gazing? It's very self-referential like just for insider jazz musicians. Like we're, it's like we're in the services. Yeah, the audience doesn't care. The audience doesn't care about what a gig pays, what it didn't pay, what's happening. Like, they still want the music. Like, let's make something to serve them. Because they're on YouTube. The algorithm is serving them up things. Let's serve them up something that is possibly inspiring and edifying and sounds good and looks good as best we can. I think that's great. I think another way to maybe frame that, Peter, is just to think about in the context of making music, too, like in the same way that I'm, I try not to focus. on if I take a solo. I try not to focus on the results of the solo. Like, how do I do? Did people like it? Yeah. I don't want to think like that.

I want to think about my process of like working on my playing, not like, are people liking what I'm doing? I'm thinking about like, how do I want to spend my time? What is lighting me up? What am I interested in? Following my bliss, following my curiosity with the music, following my intellectual passions. Same thing. I don't want to be thinking like, oh, like.

like how it used to be. And if it just go back to that, then I'd get my do or whatever. I just want to be thinking about like, okay, what am I into right now? How can I get deeper into this? How can I be more fluent at expressing this? Whether that's playing music or making a tutorial video,

those are things that like really light me up right now. I'm just worried about like more than anything. How do I do it in a way that makes me feel like, oh, man, we're on to something here. Like we have something cool that I want to see in the world that isn't in the world. Like that's, if we can do that, by and large, people will respond. Right. I mean, there's, but there's, you know, what you're saying is dripping in humility, basically.

You know, and, and that's like, I think that's, that, that's my thing with all of this. Like, how can we not, like, if you love the music, like, you have to be, I believe, on what, on the best level that you can be humble and in service to it, you know? That doesn't mean you're just like, oh, we can't be touched, put it behind the glass. And no, no, no, we have fun. But we're talking about it. We want to have fun. And for people, it's entertainment. So it's not this precious little thing.

But I could never fix myself to feel like I'm above the music. Like, I can have opinions about it. And we're putting our opinions out there. We should. Everybody should put their opinions. No problem with that. But like the music is bigger than any of us, for sure. Yeah.

Even the giants, it's bigger than them. For sure. And all of these. videos and posts about like, you know, who's going to save jazz or whatever. It doesn't need saving. It doesn't need you. It doesn't. It doesn't also like what happened to innovation. It doesn't need your innovation. It's doing fine. It's innovating. While you're saying that someone's actually innovating. Someone's really innovative right now that you're while you're making a video about where do the innovation go? Someone's actually spending time innovating. Right. Right. And that's

why I mean, look, we don't, we're not perfect here when we don't get a right and we welcome, you know, in the comments. No, we get it right. Well, we do. And we really welcome you guys are geniuses in the comments, right? Comment below. Gala. No, but I mean, we don't, like, we're not journalists.

We certainly are not journalists. Like, no, but part of the reason we're not, I think, is, first of all, this, none of this stuff is as, like, we're not as calculated as you guys might think. We're making it up as we go, but we don't like. They know, Peter? Oh, they do know. Everybody could tell. We don't review albums that we don't like or don't. think are good. We try not to.

Not because we don't have opinions on that. It's just that it's part of this thing of like we're trying to put stuff out into the world. There's so much innovation and beauty and stuff to highlight that why would we, why would we even try to go down that road, modal interchange? You know, to put some positivity and some light into the world. That's all. That's corny. That's going out of style too, by the last. way positivity enlighten the world. Oh yeah, people don't like that. They like anger. That's right. All right. Well, what do we solve here? Nothing, but we at least got it off our chest,

which I think is, uh, and look, look, the YouTube algorithm is going to, it's going to put stuff in front of you, click on it if you like, whatever, but let's just all be careful because there's always like, we can attach ourselves to something because we're being positive and still controversial or we can attach ourselves to something because we want to be controversial and negative. And like, let's think about like how we're affecting other people when we put something out there. Not everybody has to watch everything they shouldn't. But in this little subgenre of jazz and creative piano stuff on on YouTube, like, let's do our thing. Let's do our thing. Until next time.

You'll hear it. This is dead right here? Dead. Is it 195?