You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Reaction, Interaction, and Communication - #59

Episode Date: November 15, 2018

Today on You'll Hear It, Peter and Adam elaborate on the importance of the ideas of reaction, interaction, and communication within playing jazz. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Peter. Hey, Adam. What do you want to talk about today? What do you want to talk about today? What do you want to talk about? What do you? I said it first. I'm Adam Manis.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear at podcasts. Daily jazz advice coming at you. Brought to you by Open Studio. Now, today we are talking about... I have no idea. This is a spontaneous episode. No, it's not that spontaneous.

It's a... To me it is. It's an interaction episode. And it's an episode about interaction. Okay. The title of... the episode is going to be reaction, interaction, and communication. Do you have any idea what we could be talking about?

Reaction, interaction, and communication. Like the way we react and communicate or the way on the bandstand? So far, so good. Okay, good. We are finally two machines. No, I mean, we usually kind of plan out the, you know, have a few bullet points, but we thought it would be fun today that you would just throw the topic at me and at yourself and see if it sticks.

Well, I thought it was apropos to the topic that you would react and interact about the topic without knowing what it is beforehand. So there is. done now? We are done. For more information, you can know. So, you know, my idea on this was, I think sometimes the mysterious part about playing live with other musicians is like, how much interaction should we be doing?

You know, we just did a solo analysis of the Roy Hargrove solo. We also just did an episode on bebop recordings. And there's like a different level of interaction between those two things, between a modern solo, between going all the way back to bebop and even the pre-Bobop era. where the interaction was a little more limited. And then there's everything in between, including totally free jazz of all, just whatever you're grabbing out of the ether in the room at the time.

So I think there are different philosophies about reacting, interacting, and communicating with the other musicians on stage. And I'll start first, which is number one, listen. Dan, you stole mine, man. That's what I was going to start with. I knew I was going to usurp you on that. No, but that, I mean, we always joke about that, but that is just, I mean, that's everything for this.

That's not everything, but that's where you have to start. That's where you have to stay there, too. As you're conversating, as you're interacting, I mean, the amount that you do or don't do of any of that is always dependent upon what you're hearing. So that has to be just like a conversation. Well, and it's the amount you learn about it, too. If you're not listening while you're playing with maybe more experienced musicians, you're not going to learn how much. to react and interact the right way. That's a great point.

So it's like, I guess we need it for in the moment. Yep. But we also, it's like for building up our vocabulary, our experience, our, I mean, think about the great conversation lists. Like they're such good listeners, you know, even away from, from music, just people that can talk. But it's that like even if you first meet them, you know, you're meeting them for the first time.

It's like they've talked to so many different kinds of people they can kind of understand how to fit in. They're not like, oh, I got to get to know you for a week before I can have a great conversation with you. They're bringing that experience. But there's some people that have all this experience conversing or playing, but they're never listening. So it's like their level of playing is at a high place, but their level of interaction and ability to do that into conversation is actually kind of a low level. Absolutely.

If you're thinking about just what you're going to say next, you're not really interacting. Right. It's just like you're coming. Sorry. Was I interrupting there? Damn. Well, one of the things that I was thinking about when I named this reaction, interaction and communication is that those three things are, really, you know, three different levels of the same idea.

Reaction is something that, you know, I go like that and you have to react fairly immediately or you're, there's not a lot of time. D. Exactly. And there's not a lot of give back, right? You're just purely reacting to something someone else is doing. Yeah. Interaction is a way, it's like the beginnings of communication.

Like, I do something, you do something, I do something. Communication, what I do is telling, is giving you more information where you, you're we're going somewhere together and we're kind of like negotiating it together. And that only comes, I think, after learning how the musicians you're playing with React and interact, and then you could start communicating. So I wonder if that top level of the communication that you're talking about is really, if we could think about it as kind of collective storytelling. I think so.

I think that's... And that's not the easiest thing to do. It's the highest level of it. It is the highest level. And like that first, what's the first level is reaction? Reaction. Yeah, is, I mean, that's actually something that annoys me when it's done sometimes by drummers

will do this especially, where you play a rhythm and they play it back at you. It's almost like a mirror or like an aping. Like you ever gone to the zoo and the apes looking at you and you're like, blah, blah, yeah, yeah. And you do it back and that's what it reminds me of. Are you available to Saturnia? I was going to go to zoo, by the way.

You could go ape the apes. No, no, man. But I think you're right. And you know what? It is a necessary thing, especially if you're just starting out in this. And I mean, if you're still trying to hold together, you know, your basic playing with other people, whether that's soloing or if you're, you know, rhythm section instrument, sometimes the only thing that you can do is react because you're not quite there yet. Yeah. But I think the goal is to get more of an interaction.

And that's where, you know, the two parties or more are starting to listen to each other. Yeah. And you're not mimicking. You're not just reacting straight up, you know, aping someone. else you're you're actually like complimenting them yeah you know not not playing exactly what they played but playing something that fits with what they played yeah i mean i think that the complimenting part is so important because even if you're re i mean look we're always reacting as a comping instrument on a certain let kind of gut level to what's happening because you are you know in a

supportive role and yeah maybe you can get to that level of collective storytelling but if you don't think about the reaction your immediate reaction to be just to mimic what you're hearing or if we think about that as kind of level one. And maybe there's a time for that, but that's like the easiest level. And like if you don't know a player, maybe that's all you can do. But if you think about, you know, if a trumpet player's, I mean, of course that

Roy Hargrove solo is still in my ears, it's like bit bit doop instead of being that's mimicking as your reaction. But what is something that you can play that compliments that just happened? So I feel like sometimes pianists and drummers are especially guilty of this.

They feel like, you know, when you, you, that you have to mimic something to prove that you can hear it. Right. And that you have good ears. You're just telling everybody, I'm listening. I'm listening. Yeah, yeah. But you can do that in more subtle ways.

And so normally, like, when you get the, not even necessarily older players, just more experienced players, they're usually getting to more of a, you kind of go naturally into that complementary area, which I think is very fertile ground for comping. Hey, Pete. What up, Adam? You know, we got this open studio thing? Yeah, dog. What am I doing here? Well, you're the creative director. What does that mean?

Well, the whole thing of Open Studio is about creativity, so it's kind of an important position. You should know. I guess you're asking me rhetorically, though, right? Kind of him. Yeah, no, I know what I do. No, I mean, you're doing so many wonderful things here, but I think one of the most important things is you're really overseeing the community aspect, and I'm so proud of what we've built here with our community of students from over 100 countries now, which is really amazing.

But you've been instrumental to kind of pulling people into this online situation, but really giving a great feeling through The Hang, which is our social network and our Facebook groups, and the lessons and the comments and the dialogue with customers, a real kind of in-person, as we might say, IRL experience online. It's one of the best parts I think about Open Studio, and one of the most incredible things is the engagement that we get to do with members, like you said, from all over the world. And, you know, you briefly mentioned the Hang, but that is our own in-house social media network so that you don't have to be on Facebook, and you can still enjoy the free content

that we upload almost every day now. It's getting to be the point where we're like, we are giving out, are we giving out too many secrets? I don't think so, but you know what? We're starting to learn, I'm learning so much from our students, which is a really fun thing. And then we have students learning from each other and connecting with each other.

And I'm seeing as much as we give the tactical advice, how do you finger this scale, how do you sing this phrase? And we've got Diane Reeves teaching you, so it's the best of the best. But we're also just trying to kind of empower folks, give them the confidence that these secrets now are available to everyone. We're not hoarding them over here.

And so we're sharing them and we're getting the dialogue going. That's right. On the hang, our in-house social media network and on our private Facebook groups, we have our own students who are dialoguing with each other. They're sharing transcriptions from famous recordings. They're sharing ideas and concepts like licks and voicings and all kinds of stuff. I'm on there every week helping to kind of guide the conversation and add some stuff. You're on there almost every week.

adding some free content, and we have a really good thing going with that community. Absolutely. Maybe we shouldn't be publicizing it. I don't know. Okay. All right, just cancel this whole thing then. Open Studio. Jazz lessons from Jazz Legends. Well, yeah, and there's different levels of this kind of interaction and communication. Speaking of that Roy Hargrove solo on St.thwark's St. Anthony, when he went into that single note rhythm thing, he was communicating to the drummer, Montes Coleman. here's where we're going to go and we're going to build this.

And Montez then interacted with him. He reacted with him and he communicated back. Now we're going all into it by building up with him. That's the highest level of communication for this. That takes listening by the whole band and that takes, you know, what happened there was Roy communicated to the band. This is what's going to happen. What did he text them, you think?

Oh, you're talking about musically. Music. That's right, right. You know what I mean? He was open. He was listening. He was in the right part. He was telling them this is where we're going to go.

The band communicated back by going there with them flawlessly. Yeah. Not just starting to do like, like if Roy's doing, they didn't just go. Yeah. Or they didn't just go. They like built with him. They were all communicating and telegraphing what was going to happen next.

Yeah. And I think that's always, you know, when it's done at a high level, which is what we're all striving for, that's always done as in a way. that, you know, coming from the soloist, the high level is you're communicating that, but you're leaving options. Right. So, like, as Roy is saying, you know, to Montez, like, all right, we're going somewhere now, he doesn't box them into only being able to play one thing because what happens

is, and we've all been these situations when the soloist communicates and, but plays in a way that they kind of boxing you in, then you're like, okay, fine, I'll just, I'll play what I have to play. And then you get into that kind of aping thing because they're not giving you any, it's not really collective storytelling. telling, they're telling a story and just want you to support them, which is fine. And sometimes that happens. Yeah.

But that high level when it's like we're going, like they're pointing the way, where we're going, but it's like let's kind of create the journey and how the story of how we're going to get there together. Yeah. You know, like kind of hop on my back. I might hop on your back or maybe we hold hands or whatever. Exactly. I'm going to say let's go here, but things the route could change, if whatever, depending on what you say. You know, if you're like, let's stop for lunch at Denny's.

Yeah. I'd be like, no. No. No, but you know what I'm saying? It might take a little detour. I think that's the important part about this. And I think if there's anything to take away from this idea, it's that, you know, don't fall in the trap of just reacting or just interacting.

Yeah. Really experiment with trying to communicate in like a deeper way. Yeah. Yeah. Think about that collective storytelling as sort of your, you know, that's not something to think about beat by beat or measure by measure or what rhythm you're going to play. But think about that as your concept going in, especially as an accompanying instrument.

Totally. And that can really open some things up. You know, it's a humbling thing to go into any situation, not just, yeah, if you're playing with Roy Hargrove or some great player, of course you want to do a collective story with them. But to any situation and say, look, I'm going to meet them where they are. We're going to go on this journey together. I'm going to support, make them sound great,

but mainly make the whole sound great and make it a story, this solo and arc of a story that's edifying to the listener. That's great. Well, if you have any questions about this episode, if you want to suggest something for another episode, go to Ullhere.com. If you want to get one of these t-shirts that PM's wearing over here. You know what I'm saying? We got long sleeves for the winter, yo. You want to leave his voicemail?

We got short sleeves for the southern hemisphere. Hey, you know, we should entice people like that. If you want to leave his voicemail, you might get on this podcast. You know what I mean? Well, we've, yeah, that's obvious, isn't it? Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.

We've got some. We're going to get to those and then probably next week. We just had some come in. We haven't even had a chance to review them yet. We're going to do some tomorrow. Oh, tomorrow. Okay. So, I mean, yeah, please leave us.

Just go to you'll hear it.com. You'll see there's several ways to communicate. You can leave a message via voice. We've sent all this before, right? Yeah, there's no way to interact, but there are several ways to communicate. Well, I mean, no, that's, it's asynchronous. What do you call that interaction when it's not in sync? Until next time.

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