You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Should You Be Dogmatic With the "Real" Changes?

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

On this episode, Peter and Adam answer a SpeakPipe about whether or not you should always play the original chord changes or if it's okay to go off another reference.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Interested in more jazz advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter & Instagram at:https://www.facebook.com/heyopenstudiohttps://twitter.com/heyopenstudiohttps://www.instagram.com/heyopenstudio See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Peter. Hey, are you feeling dogmatic today? I'm feeling a little dogmatic. Yeah, I actually am. Let's do this. Let's do it again. Roof-Roof. I'm Adamannis.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to You'll Hear It. A podcast about listening and playing music better. Now, why are we getting so dogmatic today? Well, because this is kind of a holdover question from 2019. And it, my recollection is, well, first of all, we've already recorded this episode. But the quality control here is so high that we're redoing this. We're not going to release the original episode.

episode because we lost some of the files, actually. You know, we're going to blame that one on the pod cave. We're going to blame it on the pod cave. In the move over here, some things didn't make it. But we're happy to kind of go through this again. In the pod suite. In the pod suite. Yeah.

But the question, as I recall, we're going to listen to it again here because this is when the speak pipe was still on. Kind of demanded a dogmatic answer, right? Wouldn't you say? That's the only reason. We don't just wake up in the morning. Well, yeah, we do. No, you definitely do. No, but I mean, I think that this kind of led to a little bit.

The question's about dog. So let's take a listen. Hello, Peter and Adam. My name is Tomek and I'm from Poland. Tell me how the most popular chord progression was created in Stella by Starlight, which is played on Gem Sessions and Real Book, and why nobody plays original chords from Victoria Young. Thank you.

All right, so that's Tomic. Thank you, Tomic. And I think what he's talking about is the first couple bars of Stella by Starlight. If you don't know the tune, well, you should, probably. But it starts with this E-half-diminished, right? And the original changes, as I understand them, are instead of E-half-diminish to A-7, it's B-flat diminish.

Which makes sense, actually. It does make sense. And so he's asking why. Why do jazz musicians play that E-half-diminished to the A-7? Because me no like-e. Well, no, that's actually a pretty valid answer, because I think the E half-diminished A-7, it was definitely made famous by Miles' version.

I don't know if he was the one who thought of that. I don't think he was the first, but it was definitely the popularizer of it. And it was probably the popularizer of that tune in such a broad way. When Miles covered anything like that, it took off. So to have that E-Half-Diminished to A-7, it's like a little false 25, right?

Like we're going somewhere. It sounds good. I mean, it does. it works with the melody and it sounds good and it's easier to improvise over for a lot of jazz musicians than just a straight up diminished chord for some reason. Yes, especially starting on the diminished. Starting on the diminish.

I love the way that sounds with the diminished, though, I have to say. Yeah. Well, it's a fun thing to kind of play around with it once you know that. But I think historically what's happened with these kind of situations where jazz musicians change or alter the chords of a popular song that's from... a movie or a musical or something that was not written as a jazz song, but it's a beautiful melody with an interesting harmonic thing.

It's usually just to make it a little bit more interesting, I think, harmonically, like what that movement is underneath. And it's sort of a fine line that you have to be careful about crossing. I've never been one that's been like super dogmatic. You have to play it just like the original changes, because it doesn't necessarily fit the idiom that we're playing for and as a vehicle for improvisation, if you strictly stick to the core changes,

even on stuff like Gershwin, you know. And so, but you don't want to re-harm everything. And I wouldn't consider, well, this is kind of a permanent reharmonization. Now, what I think is important is as much as possible if we kind of know generally what the original changes are. Then I really think you have license to change it as much as you want to. I think that's the key, is especially something that's in your rep, something that you're playing a lot.

You need to do the homework. You need to do the research of what are the original changes. So, Tomica, it sounds like you knew that this was the original change. You have license to do whatever you want. Right. But sometimes, if you are just relying on, especially like the real book, which can really suck the fun out of the song. Yeah, well, because it's only just one version. And it may be a good version, but sometimes they originally made mistakes and interpreting and hearing what was on a great recording.

And then people followed that instead of following what was an interesting reharmonization on the recording. And, hey, look, it happens all the time, like Miles is around midnight. compared to monks. Yes, I know. It's like super different. Yeah. But you need to learn the monk one. Yeah, and I think that one's actually a little bit more interesting.

It is more interesting. I mean, but knowing both is helpful because they're both played a bunch, but, you know, do the research. I did a course, a mini-course here at Open Studio called a Lead Sheet Breakdown, where I kind of talk about this a lot about going back to the source material. You know, even if you just look at a copyrighted piano reduction of something like, summertime from Gershwin or somewhere over the rainbow from Harold Arlen, you can see the composer's original intent for what the harmony was. It wasn't just a set of chord changes in a real book. It was actual like counter melodies and harmony that made the melody above it so much more interesting and bass movement that actually had something to do with what the melody was doing, not just

it's two five after two five after two five. You know what I mean? These things are important. And like you said, you don't have to be super dogmatic. I only play the original changes to everything, and I know every counter melody. But when you know that, now you can make an informed decision about how you want to approach it. Right. You're not doing an interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation, which would be three hats that you're putting on. A hat on hat on hat. We don't want to do that.

You want to put that hat directly on. And it's interesting because when he first said this about Stella by Starlight, I thought this question was not about the first chord. Oh, I know you're going. Then I remember it. Yeah. Because this is something that came up. I don't forget when it comes because right here, that's the original two five, then to the five, which is kind of the tonic. Then to the F major.

Yeah. And a lot of people play that. Which is fine, but I remember I played that. I played this song with Ray Brown. Oops, I dropped that name on the ground. My bad. But the great Ray Brown, I had the honor and pleasure to play a little bit with him. And we were rehearsing.

and I did that, he's like, uh-uh, that's not the right chords, and he just sort of played the bass, the root movement there. And I was like, okay, there you go. I mean, if Ray Brown says it's right, I would say it's right. Yeah, but this is a great tune. And I think that, you know, so both those places, let me just sort of, this is the 251, when it goes right before the bridge,

so G minor, C-7 instead of B-flat minor to E-flats. I mean, it makes sense. It's a 251. Yeah. Again, you can play the other one, but know where it kind of comes from and jump off from there. So really, it's really about making informed decisions about the changes you want to play, not being super dogmatic, but knowing that you've done your homework,

that you know the original intent of the composer as much as possible. And hey, look, no one's going to, jazz police aren't going to arrest you if you don't know. I mean, but consider that it only makes you. You're going to bail them out if they do? That this kind of detail, this kind of detail of research and of, of music. knowledge only makes you better and it only makes your intent on what you're learning better. So whatever tune you're learning, you know, I always like, I have a favorite version that could be a little more modern. I want to know that because I like, I want to know the players I know.

You know, like I want to learn how they're playing it, learn how they approach it. But it's actually can be, if you kind of know what the original was, now I see like, oh, this is how Jason Moran approach this original content. So now I can see his decision makings. And there's actually a lot to be learned from that. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Now, but I would say that, you know,

the Jason Moran version of a tune like this is not going to be what you use as your only reference recording. No, no, but I'm saying like if I know the original and then I see Jason Moran's, now I can see his thinking. Like, okay, he saw this original because you know like a player of that. Calibur knows where it's coming from, right? Yeah. And then like, here's, he saw the original and here's his decisions

on what to do, and it kind of is almost like a little lesson about arranging in things. Yeah, and I think, too, like sometimes what I remember doing on certain tunes when I'd learn them is you can kind of split the difference too. I mean, it's best to kind of check out every version that you like. But sometimes, like, if you just need to go to one thing, I would use as a reference, something like Frank Sinatra singing it, or as opposed to going to the sheep music, you know, especially if you want to do it by ear, Ella Fitzgerald, really any great singer kind of from that era. Yeah.

where there's not going to be a lot of substitutions in changing of the chords, I would say. Right, right, right. But they may change, they will change the melody somewhat, but they're not probably going to change the lyrics. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you can get an interesting take. Yeah, you probably should know the original melody on the sheet music too. But then if you take a reference, so I would say Saravan, Ella Fitzgerald.

Well, Sarvon's going to probably even start to get into a little bit more changing of things. But Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald. Who else would follow that? Knack and Cole. Not King Cole for sure. Yeah. You know, the only reason I was... Taylor Swift, I don't know.

That's a little later. Rod Stewart? No. No, no. The only reason I was... He sings standards. I recommend checking out the score or like a copyrighted piano reduction, especially if it's from that era that the tune was from, is that you get to see some of the

counter melodies, some of the bass movements that might not be on an Ella version or something like that. You know what I mean? Just to get, and that's just my own arranger nerd thing coming out of like, I want to see what they were thinking about. And you get a little dog bad to you. That's okay. That's what we're doing today.

That's all right. But you know what? If you're on the session and someone doesn't know the same change as you know and you've done the research, don't be a jerk. No.

Don't be that guy or gal. Please. We've been that guy. Don't be a... Actually, actually back in 1938 when Sammy Cod. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, look, and the whole thing is like, get into, we want it to be accurate, but being 97% accurate versus being 99% accurate is not as big of a deal as being between 70% accurate

and 97. Like, once you get to a certain point, Just play the music, okay? Yeah. And I think, like, with a lot of things, I mean, this is not that different than, like, in classical music when, you know, they're saying we're playing baroque music, we have to be tuned down. No, you don't. 432. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

432. 432. 432. Was that Baroque tuning? I believe it was. Yeah. But, I mean, it can be interesting to do that sometimes. But then you're kind of jumping into the whole thing, like, and it can be super interesting.

But it doesn't mean it's not valid because you're playing with modern instruments and modern tunes because we're playing in modern concerts. because we're playing in modern concert halls for modern audiences and all that kind of thing. I think it's the same thing with this. The music is a lie, which is great about it. Do a little bit of research, see the lineage of it, and then have some fun with it. Come up with your own substitutions. Absolutely. Don't rely on the crappy fake book ones, you know.

Absolutely. Yeah. Big shout out to Real Book. Keep on the transcribing or, sort of. It's a lot of Steve Swallow tunes. A lot of Steve Swallow. Well, good. Well, we are brought to you by Open Studio Jazz.

Open Studio Jazz provided us this beautiful news. pod suite. Are we feeling good about that name? Are we going with it? We're going with that. The pod suite. We have so far all week. It is sweet in here. I like it because I can accompany your diatribs. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, we're here. Go to open studio jazz.com and check out our courses. We've got a lot of new stuff coming around the pipe. We've got new Jeffrey Keys are coming very soon. But there's several there. If you haven't checked out as earlier, of course, you're going to want to check it on those. So you're ready to go next level with him. And until tomorrow, you'll hear it.

Optimistic. Dopeo. Dopeo. Two dopes.