You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Smooth vs. Straight Ahead and 3 more Novice Jazz Questions

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

Is it all Improv? What's appropriate listening etiquette? Best introductory jazz Album? Smooth vs. Straight Ahead? Peter answers four most often asked questions jazz musicians hear, with special guest Kelly Martin.What questions do you have for Peter, Adam or Kelly? Leave us a SpeakPipeWatch Live: YHI LIVE Mondays at 4pm ET on YouTubeWoosh or No Woosh? Hit us up on Twitter and let us know which team you are onSupport the pod by spreading the word with the link youllhearit.com Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Adam. Adam? Adam, where you at, big guy? It's Kelly. Oh, hey. Wow, that's way better than Adam. I'm Peter Martin. I'm Kelly Martin.

This is the You'll Hear It Podcast, music, advice, and inspiration coming at you. With special guest co-host. Kelly Martin. What's happening? I'm good, but where's Adam? Who cares? I miss Adam. He's not here.

This is Method. Monday and last week actually Adam did it solo and so I was going to do it solo today but since we are here together recording another podcast. Storytimes with Kelly and Peter. Story time with Kelly and Peter which is going to be released very soon. It's not out yet but please be on the

lookout for that. I'm excited about it. Are you excited about it? It's fun. Can we promote it a little bit here on the podcast? Why not? It's just fun stories of our life and love and family and all that stuff. That's right. And And we are, we don't know what day it's going to come out. It's going to be once a week.

We've already got two episodes in the can. You've been doing amazing. Thank you. So have you. You've been, no, no. I've been kind of just I. Oh, you've been great. You know, I've been getting a little nervous. Like I told you on the first episode, I thought you were going to be nervous because I've

done like 500 of these. You'll hear it's maybe more than that. Yeah, more than that. And so I'm like, oh, I know how to do it, but I have to help my wife along. And then you were so relaxed that I ended up getting nervous. I was like, wait, she's like killing it. and being relaxed and we're running video we're doing audio and it's going to be a nice little thing yeah it's a fun uh bonding husband and wife bonding time that's right a little appointment we have together

but we are on the you'll hear podcast you've actually been on this podcast before it's been a been a couple years yes it's been a while um but folks loved your first episode with heather and today what i thought we were going to do what what i thought we could do here for method monday is not going to be an official method monday i just like saying method monday this is going to be method man monday Remember method man? Yes. This is going to have nothing to do with him. That's good.

No, but we're going to go over, and this was kind of your idea. Okay. I'll take it right. Four novice questions about jazz. Right? Did I get that right? That's right. The thing is, you're not a novice about jazz.

You're not a jazz musician per se, but you have a lot of jazz knowledge, actually. So I don't know how this is going to work. I think it can work because I am by no means an expert. and because I'm not a musician, I'm thinking of just kind of questions that a non-musician would ask a musician who wants to get into jazz. Okay, got it.

But you've heard a lot of jazz. You're super knowledgeable. Since you were a kid, you listen. I'm like, you're like a very advanced listener. So we're full disclosure on that. You're not like, oh, I just, you know, came out of the street and never listened to jazz. But, yeah, you're not a musician per se.

So, but you've been around a lot of music. Yes, that's right. It's been forced upon you. I just have to warn you, something that does not exist on the Storytime podcast is a little thing we call. Wait, let me try it again. Hold up. Whoa. That's the whoosh.

Okay. And just so you know, we have some folks listeners who are self-professed members of Team Woosh. Some other folks are not. Oh. So I don't know. You might want to decide if you're a part of, if you're pro team whoosh or not. I'm going to already say no. Really?

But we use that for like to go from different sections. So like it would be sort of like this. All right, let's start out are four novice questions. Here's number one. Yep, no wish. So, question number one. Yes. How much of jazz is actually improvised?

Ah, okay, great question. So this is probably the most common question that I've heard, like after gigs or people, you know, meeting new people all around the world. When they're like, oh, like, they might be like, oh, I enjoyed it so much. I have a question. Like, if they're going to have one question, this is probably more. than anything. And it's always a little tricky to answer because, like, I'll estimate with a lot of different groups, like 80% improvised and 20% planned out. And folks are usually shocked by that. They're like, what? Because they think that, you know, they know that there's some improvisation in jazz

that's kind of been, you know, but they can't really tell. I think if we're doing it well, it seems like we're not improvising. But to the musicians, we feel like, it should feel like we're improvising because that's such an important part of jazz. And it's so it's what really sets it apart from a lot of different other kinds of music. It's kind of like if you play American football, you've got that funny looking ball. You're like, that's our ball. It's not like every other ball. It's not even a ball, but we call it a ball. But that's a cool thing that just your sport has. And so I always think about improvising as being, although this is certainly not the only genre, genre of music that improvisation plays a part. It's such a big part of it. So,

I mean, that's a sloppy number, 80%, but a lot of it. We have a framework with which we play in. But really, in general, the more you're playing things that are planned out or that you're thinking through too much that you're not hearing, like the name of the podcast, you'll hear it. I think the less jazz it is in a lot of ways. And so we wanted to feel improvised to the players and to the listeners. We want to be a participatory experience so that that, that,

that excitement, that journey, that experimentation that we go through where we don't know what's around the corner. We might know that these are the forms and the chord changes, but we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know how many choruses we're going to solo because we don't know what we're going to play. So it's like we're telling a story and so, but we're improvising the story. So it can't be just so random that the story doesn't have cohesion. That's like the solo. But it can't be so thought out that like at the beginning of the night, you're like, I know I'm going to play this many choruses on the blues, and I'm going to start on an F and blah, blah, blah.

So we really, I believe, you know, lean into there being a heavy percentage improvised. Did that answer your question? It did, and I have a follow-up to it. So when you have sheet music on the bandstand, so is that just like the framework for the music that you're going to play? Usually, yeah. And I mean, it depends. Like if it's, say, a new composition by somebody that we don't all know,

that they've just brought in, you know, we might be reading it and there may be a lot like in certain sections that it's like 90% not improvised or even like you could have certain parts that are 100% like you have to play it like this. But there's almost always then longer sections where you're improvising where you're taking that framework, that form that the melody is based upon and then repeating it over and over again to be, you know, improvised over. Okay. I think I think I I got it. That was good. All right.

Actually, that was very good. Yes. I mean, you know, I've done this. I've done this before, you know, a couple times. All right. Oh, by the way, what are you doing after this? You want to go out for a date, a little dinner? I said, like to go to the grocery store.

Okay, we'll do that, and then we'll get some stuff for dinner. Okay, sorry. Sounds good. Side note. So, question number two. Yes. And this one, wait. Oh, I said no, whoosh.

Question number two. So what is the etiquette for listening to live music, live jazz music? Because I know there's, I mean, I'm a big classical fan and we go to the symphony a lot. So I understand what the musical etiquette is there. And I understand. Stuffy. A little stuffy. No, it's not stuffy.

But there is just like, you know, when you applaud. Oh, right. After a piece. And like, if for novices, when they first go to a classical concert, they don't know. They hear the music stop. They clap. And I'm like, well, it's not time yet. So this is for jazz.

And, you know, I've been to many jazz clubs over the year, so I understand this. But there are people here who haven't. Right. And they want to venture into a club, but they may be nervous about it. Yes. And I think that that's, you know, something that jazz has in common with classical that I'm not crazy about is this idea of like, oh, I have to be able to act the right way when I go there. Whereas if you go to like a pop show, you know, like remember when we went and saw Stevie Wonder about four years ago? Oh my gosh.

That was so good. It's like you don't have to think of. What I love about that is you don't have to think about how am I supposed to act. Can I get up and down? Like you kind of, there's something about the ambiance and the, well, I mean, it's Stevie Wonder, but I mean, it's just so top shelf. But there's something that's so relaxed in terms of how you can interact with the music. I like to try to bring that to jazz performances and for the audience.

And it's hard because a lot of times that's venue driven because people come in and they're like, I mean, I remember clubs in, you know, a lot of really great clubs will have like a listening policy where you're not supposed to talk. they'll even have a little sign on the table like do not talk this is a listening room and I really respect that because some people think oh it's background music or whatever and and and but then other people are coming there and paying good money to sit and listen even though you're in a club setting at tables you know you go to the symphony you're seated facing the audience like it's physically set up so that you're not going to be chatting and then there's this long history of

like oh my god you collapsed between movements you it's so ghost of you you know and so a certain amount of that is I think unfortunately, you know, come over into jazz because I think that I liked it when, you know, back in the day, and still a lot of clubs are like this when it's relaxed, where people, yeah, you're not having conversations and not listening to music. You're listening to the music because it's so exciting what's happening, but you're participating in the music. You're like, yeah, go ahead. You know, you can really say whatever. You can clap whenever. I know I do that. And I have an advantage because I kind of understand the music to the level of knowing, when it would be disruptive to the performers.

And sometimes people do get that way. But if you're feeling the music, you don't have to be a musician and you feel like clapping. We want you to clap, you know. And hopefully we're playing in a way. But I mean, not that that's required either. It's not like,

oh, I have to clap at this. But if you're enjoying, we want to feel that energy. We want to connect with that. And there's nothing wrong with, you know, with you doing that and being heard. Now,

there's some people in the audience that you can tell just want to have a little focus on them. And sometimes we're kind of like, I mean, if you want to be the focus, come on up here and play with us. Like, if you're doing so much that you're really becoming part of the gig, you need to get an instrument. But in general, like, we love playing for audiences that are loud, but in the right ways. And so I know that's sounding like you have to do it the right way. Well, no, because as a person in the audience, I always appreciate when my fellow audience members are really into the music, when they're applauding.

or like my favorite when Gretchen, you know who Gretchen is? When she whistles at a certain part in the show and she gets so excited, it just brings so much love, I think, into the room. So, no, I appreciate the audience responding to the music.

Well, and I think that, you know, actually you'll have leaders like this, like Gretchen that are such good listeners and they're so knowledgeable, because they've been to a lot of shows and listened to a lot. They're not necessarily musicians, but they just have that knowledge

of the music. It's great when you have leaders like that doing it because you can kind of You know harness the energy of the whole audience when other people like wait should I and say no it's okay and then that's a connection Between the stage and the audience that's really important and so you go back into the history and look we only have to go a few blocks from here to Delmar Boulevard and then a few blocks down where we're where some of the greatest jazz clubs you know back in the 60s Gaslight Square you know where you'd have the intersection and talking to older musicians and even when I was coming up in the 80s. I was coming up in the 80s. I was on the St. Louis scene, a lot of the musicians were still around. Part of the reason was so exciting and like John Coltrane will come to town and play for like two weeks straight, Miles Davis.

I mean, all these great St. Louis musicians, you know, Clark Terry and everything, was the audiences were so well educated. I don't mean educated as like I took a jazz course. I mean, they came up in the music. Yeah. They knew somebody around the corner that was a musician. Their parents listened to records at home. And so in the clubs, like there was an, um,

an authenticity with the audience in terms of their exclamations and like yeah go ahead and like but a lot of people there's a lot of gretchen's happening is basically what it was and so there was this you know kind of critical mass of jazz appreciation and playing and then there was a responsibility for us as musicians to like really be grooving and making sure that they could tap their finger and like you could experiment some but you had to bring it back home and you had to know how to play the blues i mean at st louis you had to you know and so i kind of miss that sometimes we'll hit that in certain places and you you it is very exciting so i'm all for like freedom of participation for the audience and um and it's it's it's a beautiful thing and it takes the pressure off us as musicians like that

energy like if i'm playing in front of like a really stale audience where they're acting like a classical audience where they they have that they're called their hands they're sitting on their hands or i can't clap i can't say anything i have to be respectful i have to be quiet that's not fun no it's not fun like we can still play good because we're professional and like we have to play i mean we're not and we will but i'll tell you i'll tell you i'll tell you I'm more tired at the end of the night with those kind of audiences because I'm not getting that energy. Like I'm physically like exhausted sometimes. Whereas when you're getting that energy, you can be like ready like to do another gig, you know,

and do another set. And so, you know, places like New York, Village Vanguard, you're typically getting, you know, because this is something about the room and there's enough people there that are like, they're listening and it's quiet. But like when you play something good, people respond. When you play something I, they kind of respond. And that's the way we want it. Okay.

Okay. So let's move on to my next question for you. So for someone, you did the Wushkin. That's part of the thing. Take it up with Adam. He's King Wush. So like for someone who is like, you know what? I've heard a little jazz and it's really interesting. But I don't, I want to get into it and really learn jazz. Yeah. What are some recordings that someone can listen to and say and really get a feel for the music? Yeah. Okay. So there's a record that I know you know well.

And our listeners know well because we talk about it all the time. We probably overly talk about it. But I have to throw it out there. Kind of blue Miles Davis. Oh, my God. That's amazing record. It's a great record. So I won't say a whole lot about that because everybody's already heard that

and they're sick of us talking about it. But that's such a great entry point for anybody. But there's another record that I used to think this was not a good entry point, but I've talked to enough people to realize that it is. And that's a love supreme. Oh, yes. John Coltrane. Absolutely.

I always thought because, like, there's so many layers to it. And kind of blue is the same way, so I should have known this. There's so many, like, deep levels to it. And it's a very, you know, it's a very just deep album. And it's a very serious record in a way. But people connect with that so much. It's a great record. And so I realize now that that's a great entry point as well.

And then other, you know, I like to try to get something a little bit more modern, too. So I would say Roy Hardgrove Ear Food, that's a fantastic. fantastic record with St. St. Denis. I mean, it's just one of the best jazz record of the, you know, whenever that was 2000, 2000s, I guess you call it, the aughts or whatever. So those three records, you can't go wrong. Okay.

Yeah. All right. Moving along. Here's a whoosh coming. All right. So my final question for you is, and this is just, again, for your jazz novice, what is the difference between smooth jazz and other? I would like to call straight ahead jazz.

Oh, real jazz. We can call it real jazz. Yeah, we'll call it real jazz. Straight ahead. No, I think straight ahead's good. So smooth jazz, much maligned, I can say, by Adam and I. I'm not going to lie. And others.

But, but I know, I should say we shouldn't because, first of all, we've both played smooth jazz a lot. I've done the smooth jazz cruise very successfully. I love smooth jazz. I came up, we came up, you know, CD 101 format. What was the station in? St. Louis called the it was a smooth jazz. I don't remember.

I think it was like 101. Well, it was like that. Yeah. They were always around that number. I mean, that was like, it was a whole format.

They called a CD 101 format. But I think, you know, going back to like Grover, Washington Jr., you know, weather, well,

weather report is kind of, I guess that's not really smooth jazz. But I would just say stuff that's not straight ahead, but it's incredible music. I'm blanking now on some other. I mean, but Kenny, Grover, Washington Jr.

is, I think, a really important example because he kind of invented the modern smooth jazz movement in a lot of ways. I mean, he certainly, but fit into the tradition of jazz and R&B. He was a great jazz player, straight-ed jazz player, R&B and blues and kind of brought all those different elements. But then you have, like, all those great blue note recordings that are actually like, oh, yeah, George Benson.

See, Kelly's writing things down for me. She's saving me. Absolutely. George Benson and Grover, Washington, Jr., I think, are the biggest bridges between jazz blues and so-called smooth jazz. Because they were excellent jazz musicians, but then they liked to groove and they could. And they kind of created this other genre that possibly got a little bit bastardized

with stuff that was more music-like and was more elevator kind of music. And, you know, we don't like to name names so much. but yeah watered down kind of kind of stuff and watercolors exactly like on serious x-m you know like stuff that's supposed to be in the background and there's nothing wrong with it and some of that stuff is really grooving and good playing but there's a difference between like you listen to george benson anything from his pop stuff to his groovy stuff to a straight-ahead stuff like that you're rewarded by like attentive listening to that that's like serious not as serious music i sound like a snob serious music to be studied at the conservatoire no but i i i'm understanding what you're saying. It's just it's the, um, almost like the thought that goes into playing the music. Yeah. No matter what the genre is. And also the talent that goes into playing that music. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, look, a lot of smooth jazz stuff. Like, I mean, we, look, Kenny G. Everybody knows we're talking about Kenny G. The poster poster boy for smooth jazz. Super talented. Super nice guy too. And super good player. But, um, and look, he made a bunch of

records that just people love to hear and to pay attention to. But then there's a lot of that stuff that came out of that that's more like, you know, to be played in the background and just kind of instrumental R&B became its own kind of a thing. So, but I would say, yeah, the main, the main difference is just the groove that they use. Like a lot of smooth jazz, modern smooth jazz is more like R&B backbeat kinds of grooves and stuff. And straight ahead has really stayed kind of connected with not just a swing groove, you know, boss of Nova, all these different, you know, boogaloos, you know, shovel so many different grooves, but it's

a little bit more with that and a little bit more improvised too. Typically smooth jazz will be a little bit more limited on its improvisation. Okay. Yeah. Did we nail it? Yes, I'd learn some stuff. That's, well, this is good. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, and you know, we everybody should like, what do we want to tell about story time? Just check it out. It's coming soon. Coming soon. Coming soon. To a YouTube. YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher. You don't know nothing about that.

I don't know Stitcher. Until next time. You'll hear it.