You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Speaking Without Talking

Episode Date: February 24, 2023

Adam and Peter get deep into some YHI listener questions about how to communicate non-verbally and why there's fewer women in Jazz than men. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, what's up? We've got questions today. Well, you know what? That's great because I believe we have answers. I can't promise that. But that's part of the drama of this little podcast. Yeah, let's find out.

Let's find out. Yeah. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear podcast. Music advice coming at you. Coming at you today. We have some questions that span the north and the south of the European continent.

We have a question from Ireland and we have a question from Spain. And I thought we would take those today. They were pretty decent questions. So fun, not fun fact, fun question, hopefully leading to fun fact. Ireland, yes, of course, it's part of Europe. But I always feel like, I mean, it's its own island. The UK doesn't like to be considered part of Europe as we found out. Right.

Well, be careful there, buddy, because Ireland is not part of the UK. I know that. I know. But they are part of the European continent. Right. But isn't that like saying Hawaii, Hawaii is part of the North American continent? No, it's a Pacific Rim island. I'm not sure what.

Yeah. We are not, I don't know if you can tell listeners, but we are not experts in geography. You'll hear it. A podcast about geography. Explaining. Two idiots. Two geography idiots.

Well, no, but first of all. To have traveled to all these places, have no idea of where they are. And I misspoke. The Irish island, it is an island, right? Of course. Part of the island is part of the UK. Did you know that?

Yes. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, as it's currently constructed. Shall we delve into the history, the political history of Ireland? No, we shouldn't. But I mean, Northern Ireland is beautiful. Regular island.

Republic of Ireland is beautiful. I've had the pleasure of playing music. Republican Ireland. Republic of them. Isn't it called? I don't know what the heck. Irish people. I love Irish people.

I really love Ireland. You know, and I know both of us, I believe, have a little bit of Irish heritage in our families. As do a lot of folks in America. I just do a lot of folks. But it's just to say that I do always look at Ireland

and, you know, UK and, you know, those islands, the British Isles, as a little bit separate from Europe, but certainly part of Europe. Awesome. Their own thing. Peter Martin's UK political corner, ladies gentlemen. So, but the important thing is that we're taking questions. And just a reminder, please leave us your questions. Although, full disclosure, we've been a little overwhelmed with the sheer volume.

We've got a lot of them coming in. So thanks everybody. Yeah, we, we, and these, I haven't even heard yet. So this is going to be an interesting reaction. Well, our first one is from Ireland. It's, uh, nail, Nile. Nile, I think. Let's see how Nile pronounces it in his...

Okay. Hello, Adam and Peter. Nile from Ireland here. I got a question about nonverbal communication when you're playing music people. So, for example, I've seen people do things before

where they hold like three fingers up at the end of a tune. And that means like we're going to do a three-time ending. And in Irish music, which I play a bit of as well, there's a few things as well. Like you can kind of go, hope when you're going to change key at the end, or when you're coming to the end of a group of tunes,

you're going to swap to the next one. So I'm just wondering if there's any other nonverbal communication you can think of. Love the show. See you, bye-bye. Did not know that about Irish music. Thank you, Nile. Sorry for from but from butering your name.

I've heard that, but I didn't realize, I didn't put it together that they're changing keys with that. Yeah, I didn't know that either. That's super cool. Well, I think the ones that are, I don't know if they're commonly known and they may even be a little bit regional, but like there's this, which I first learned from Betty Carter,

which means, what does this mean to you? It means we're ending. Oh, interesting, yeah, ending, but it also can mean layout. Oh,

interesting. Yeah. But apparently these things are not standardized. I take that as like we're heading like CODA. It looks like a CODA. For sure, if you go up like that, yeah.

But sometimes this I've gotten from several vocalists. And then there's like this. A lot of vocalists telling you layout. Well, yeah, and like, is there a pattern there? Yeah,

pitter pattern. But then there's this kind of like, yeah, Turn around. So we should, for our listeners, so the layout one, you made a fist. I made a fist, it was lower. And then you said up higher means last time. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. A power of me were taking out, like a coda. And then now you're doing sort of the whirly bird, the swirling your finger. Like a tornado. A toronto. You know, like you have your, Peter has. Like a lasso. A finger lasso.

Our podcast is verbal. At least the audio version. Yeah. So yeah, Peter's like making a finger lasso. YouTube, you're getting it, right? That means we're going around again. Yeah. But it could also mean like turnaround, like vamp on a turnaround.

Yeah. And then this one, I like this one, which is like pointing forwards, which is almost like the NAM point, which is a little different. Oh, yeah, yeah. But it's different. That's like, take it out. Like, like, end it out. Yeah, that's like, so he's making the finger of like a cross on a bridge or something.

Yeah. Bridge over troubled water. That's a very U one. Yeah, the NAM point one. There's also, I find there's a whole language with eyebrows. in jazz, you know what I mean? Yeah. Really?

Here we go. It's a here we go. You know what I mean? Here we go. Yo, yo. Taking it. Maybe like that means like we're switching sections or like here come the hits. Oh, you don't know what's about to happen.

You remember these hits that we rehearsed right for the gig? Yeah. There's that. I'm trying to think if there's anything else. And these are really almost more like, I mean, they're communications, nonverbal, they're almost like signals. Yeah. Specific signals, which is what he was talking about with the three fingers.

Now, of course, Amad Jamal has. had and I'm sure he still has a number of different specific to his trio or his group signals like numbering but they're always well mostly numbers one two three four which might go to specific sections and maybe even different keys and stuff I'm not I'm not even sure I've seen him doing a bunch but I've never yeah I'm always so enthralled by his playing I never paid attention to what they specifically do but I know talking to some of his musicians side men side women they talk about like what you know how you have to kind of remember those but they're specific to the arrangements I think getting into nonverbal communications that aren't specific hand signals that jazz musicians and like kind of improvised music in general does really well.

And maybe this is some of the overlap with, you know, Irish music, some old-timey music, things that are improvised kind of. And that, well, like, so an example would be like Miles Davis just turning with his horn, you know, turning towards a certain to the drummer or a certain musician on stage. He was very good at nonverbally communicating like, we're going to play something together. I don't know. It's like even without knowing, and I doubt he ever specifically said what it was, it was more of a demonstration in the moment with the musicians.

We could have Kenny Garrett talk about this because he would physically kind of come over, turn towards. And then if you came over, then it was like it was an engagement opportunity for that, you know. And then what about nonverbal communication, talking about Miles Day? Actually, I'm seeing Miles is a master. No, yeah.

When he come on and cut off. Herbie solo. Right. Not verbally communicating. Just turning to someone as you're ending your solo is a nonverbal communication like you're next. Like so if you think about even at the piano, if you're ending your solo, you sort of lean towards the bass player, they know who's next.

Or you lean towards the horn player. They know to take it. So if you lean towards the bass player, it's like that's also a signal for the audience to start talking. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But then there are, you know, think about there's even musical nonverbal communication.

Like if I were to say, I think these are the biggest. If I were to do this, Peter, what would you do? Yeah, that's a musical signal, right? Or if I were to do like, what would you think, what would you think would happen next after that? Solo break. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And that was this arbitrary rhythm, but like the repeated rhythm of it. Yeah. And sort of the spirit of it is a communication. And what about if I did that? Back down. Right? Yeah. Like vamp.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think, I mean, for improvised jazz music, the musical cues are probably the most used and, you know, in terms of for actual communication and changing things, extending things, for sure. For sure. More than the, like, sometimes I'll look,

I'll look at like a really locked in trio or quartet or big band. And like, there's more musical cues normally going on than actual hand cues or IQs. You know who's really where you could really see this every week is on Emmett's Monday thing? Because Emmett is such a student of these kinds of things. like you see this with his trio and when he has guests as well

total non-verbal cues, tons of eyebrow races and looks and smiles, but also Emmett has a ton of musical cues on all that like, you know, that kind of thing. They all hit together, all these rhythmic language cues essentially. Yeah, and then there's

some ones I'm thinking too are... Emmett Cohen for those who don't know. Yeah, so there's ones that are really sort of posture-based almost like Like sometimes you're playing and someone, like, there's something that's a little bit incongruent or a little bit, there needs to be a little bit more attention to detail. Like the leader, and the leader, especially like with a trio or smaller group, can be anybody at different times.

A lot of times the drummer kind of becomes like the de facto if they're really good. But like I'm thinking of Greg Hutchinson. He's so good at this. He'll be like swinging. And sometimes he'll just do a little thing with posture. And like, that's a signal to be like, let's make sure we really lock in the time. or the form or something so there can be that kind of arbiter of almost thinking of it's like an arbiter of like a quality control thing right like come all it's like the managers going around at the

fast food restaurant clean up that little station yeah absolutely and that's done by posture because you have to do it well yeah the side eye would be going kind of next level you know with that well what about posture too or just body language like if i were to start something off like this yeah shoe gazing that's not really inviting you to play along no but if i were to start something like this right whatever you're going to come in i'm I'm smiling at you. I'm kind of bouncing in my seat. Like, hey, let's dance.

You know what I mean? Like, that invites the rest of the band, all that kind of stuff. I mean, by the way, Nile, none of this has talked about or anything. This is just like what kind of humans do, right? Yeah, and it's good. And I think, too, because the music has been international for so long, like, it's a good thing. Like, you think about even, like, symphony orchestras are like this, too. A lot of athletics are like this, where you've got people that don't always all speak to language.

And, you know, English, we always think of as like the de facto kind of meeting point, you know, for music, this kind of music and whatever. But it's not always. So the verbal stuff a lot of times just even if somebody's, if English is not their first language or you're not using the same terminology that you do in your region or city or whatever, these kinds of musical communications, verbal, I mean, nonverbal, posture, hand signal stuff can become very important because it's more universal. Yeah. You know, it's more inclusive. All right. We have another question. Good stuff. By the way, we're...

We're brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJadio.com. We're going to do two questions today because we have a little time. This is from Fernando. Hi, Peter and Adam. It's Fernando, a piano and trumpet player from Spain. I'm really, really happy to talk to you. You made me very, very happy always. My question is a little bit controversial.

Why are there so few women in jazz? For example, in one of my big bands, there are sometimes two, one or even zero women. And that's a fact that I have almost never realized because for me I only see musicians, no matter the gender. But it's actually a matter of fact. It's true that sometimes in jam sessions, when a woman clips up to the scenario,

50% of the time is as a singer, which could be kind of a little bit cliche. But when she's an instrumentalist, everybody respects her and chills, and there is no difference, actually. I have read that maybe in the next level of professionalists, women may face more difficulties or receive less confidence for making gifts or release records. I don't know. But also I have read that from a neurological point of view, at least in a micro-statistical sense,

the adaptation of the human brain after millions of years has led to make males more prone to take risks and women more prone to have organizational skills. Okay. shit right there. I mean, I'm no scientists, but that, well, let's keep going. We just have to call that out a little bit, I think. I don't know if it has something to do with jazz being a more cowardly or, let's say, more riski as have the music. I don't really know the answer, but I would be very happy. Send you my love from Spain. Thanks, Fernando. Yeah, so that last part is probably, like, that's where. Well, I think we have to be careful when, yeah, I mean, it's fine to have different

viewpoint, but when we say, like, it's been studied or whatever. Like has that, you know, it's kind of like, you know, well, I heard a study that says if you drink a can of Coca-Cola every morning and then fast the rest of the day, you'll get healthier. So just because you say it, like, where is the study? Where do you show that? And I think that plus, it's just too many great, incredible female artists, women, specifically jazz musicians. I mean, let's talk about them that just refuse that. We don't need to study or whatever. But thank you for now for the question, too. we don't want to be like, oh, just because we don't agree with you on part of this. Let's talk about it.

Let's have an open dialogue on this. Yeah, I mean, we could talk about it even in our own. We should sort of call ourselves out here on some stuff, Peter. Like, you know, when we made our list of the seven greatest pianist of the silent generation. Yeah. You know, we purposely try to find women to put, like, include in these things that we are already fans of and make sure that that's representation. but there isn't a lot as much representation from especially those eras as you have now and i'm sure we'll have more in the future as sort of the the doors opening wider and wider but don't you

think that like considering how much um oppression of women in music and stuff that there's it's amazing how many there were and really amazing how many there are now like how many obstacles 100% they've had to get over it's pretty amazing the answer to fernando's question is massaging in the patriarchy. That's 100% why there might not be as many women in your big band as there are men. Because I'll tell you why, since a little bit of a door has cracked open for women in jazz, they are barreling through and like crushing it in the last, say, 20, 30 years when just a little bit more opportunity, still not the same kind of expectations or opportunities that most

men have who come into the music. And they still face a time. ton of discrimination and pushback and doubt. Yeah. And I mean, anytime, honestly, just from my own experience here at Open Studio, anytime I've made a video about a great who is a woman, the comments section is a dumpster fire of misogyny and, you know, just a whole bunch of bullshit.

I mean, that comes out on YouTube comments like the insecurity. It's so predictable that it's disgusting. You know what I mean? So, I mean, even on this video, we're going to get comments about that kind of thing. That's going to be terrible. And we, this is kind of a piddly. a piddly video that we'll make on our on our on our channel for this you know with our our limited

resources to talk about it but like honestly it is it is amazing to see what's happening and our daughters are will have so many more uh amazing players to look up to yeah than we had uh when we were female players to look up to than we were when we were kids for sure right and so i mean yeah and if you think to the pioneers you talk about a little hardened you talk about you know, Sarah Vaughn, Nina Simone, Mary Lou Williams. I mean, all the greats, the great lineage of that, they really did the amazing work, but most importantly, just provided amazing music and artistry

just like the men. And so they've been part of the fabric of this music, even with the discrimination that's always been there. But nowadays, with there being a little bit less, still so much work to do, and it feels like, no, it doesn't feel like jazz is behind. most other areas in this in terms of inclusivity i think specifically to this issue i agree women i think totally it continues to be a problem yeah um you know through the great work of folks like

terry lean carrington up at berkeley yeah amazing you know but mainly her great work at this that she's been doing for years as a writer as a producer as as as a drummer so but also paving the way with her music but thou also paving the way with her words um with the wonderful you know book that she just published of female composers of getting that music out there. Not as like, I mean, just as a service to all of us for great repertoire that needs and wants to be heard and it's going to help us all. But then Alexis Tarantino, Anod Cohen, Camille Thurman, I mean, there's so many artists that we need to just talk about and celebrate, and they are being celebrated and getting out there, which is great. Yeah. That, that's just like, let's just put the spotlight on them. Well, I mean,

But it's even like at this point, it's, you can't list all of it because it's, there's no, like there's too many. Yeah. It's, it's become just incredible to watch it changed so rapidly. And like any kind of, you know, misogynistic viewpoint about if, if it's like, if it's possible is complete trash at this point. Like, it's completely proven wrong. And I mean, look, the thing is just to put the spotlight and let the pioneers, you're

talking about somebody like Esperanza Spalding, like, because of like that, just her being able to have her music heard and for her to be seen, obviously the Grammy and this kind of notoriety, but just her amazing musicianship and creativity and leadership as an artist, like that opens the door for women to look at, and wow, I want to do that. I can do that. So those kinds of things. We need to really continue that work because that's always how the thing starts to open, not us up here saying, we're going to be the gatekeepers for this or the record companies or any of the YouTube whatever. Yeah, I mean, this is going to happen the way it happens. Luckily, you know, like I said, it's, my daughter is going to have a lot more women to look up to

as players than I would have had when I was her age. And that's going to make for more and more players, more and more and more players. And I mean, Fernando brings up the issue about vocalists and stuff. And like this is like what we don't want to do, I think, is to not celebrate vocalists as well. I mean, you know, have women vocalists. in jazz had an outsized, you know, been an outsized force since the history of his music. I think so. Not to say that there haven't been great male, but I mean, like, they have owned that space in a lot of ways, which is like a really cool way.

But a lot of ways, the vocals were the only ones encouraged. Exactly. You're only women encouraged to. So if that had been encouraged across the board, think about how much we all lost. Like, because that's the thing, I think, with diversity in general. And this is a really comfortable area for us to get into and talk about, right? Diversity and equity, including. No, no, no, no.

It's always weird for two white. guys to talk about any of this, but you know, the white guys got to talk about this stuff amongst ourselves as well, even, or else nothing really changes amongst us. You know what I'm saying? I think it's, yeah, I think it's okay for us to be, like, let's be selfish about this. Like, the whole thing of including and encouraging others to be involved, everybody involved in something makes this better for everybody, including us. It makes it more interesting when you don't have those voices that were shut down or never got a chance to blossom.

Let all these flies. This is not, like, it always goes with the whole growth mindset and like there's one pie and it always comes from a place of fear when we say we're not going to include a type of person or a tribe of people or race of people or gender

or ethnicity or whatever. That always comes from the mindset of like, I got to have mine, me and my people have to have mine. And when you start to realize and really think of like it being an expansive thing and there being plenty of space

and that these wonderful voices everybody's voices having the potential to be heard, that helps us all. And it's just this fun and more interesting because we get to be entertained and edified and exalted by these voices. So hire more women. Huh? Go hear more women play? Yeah.

I mean, I'm not Cohen, you know, because, you know, she's a friend of the pot, obviously open studio, but because she's one of my favorite artists over the past 10 plus years and

like, you know, with her recorded output and getting to hear her live, getting to play with her some and whatever. I couldn't imagine what my life would be like without, that. So I'm so grateful that when she was coming up, that her voice wasn't stamped out, that her dream of, you know, the same connection like we all have like when you hear this music, like, wow, I want to be part of that. Yeah. And then, you know, can you imagine being in a position where it's like,

no, you can't be part of that, you know? Yeah. So we solved it. We didn't solve. No, thank you, Fernando for the question. And look, the other thing is too, like, let's not come down on people be like, I know a lot of people could listen to this question and be like, oh, that's misogynist, that's whatever. You know what? Maybe it is. That's a way. Yeah, there's no reason to shame the questioning of it. The questioning of it is the only way real change happens. Even if our conversation, yeah, and our conversation probably misses the mark on several areas as well about this too, because we can only do it from our, maybe yours. Our, our myopic perspective here, but just the keep like keeping it on your mind, whether that's any of these issues.

Caleb looks nervous over there. though. He does look a little nervous. That's okay. We're all a little nervous of talking about it. No, but talking about it is important. It is. It's the only way to normalize it, you know. I don't like a trend a little bit to be like, these people can't talk about this. These people can't. You know, you're free to say that we're wrong and to flame us or whatever, but everybody can talk about it. Nobody has to talk about it. But, but appreciate the question,

Fernando. And then the other thing is we got to understand, like everybody comes from where they come from. You know, it's like that's some jive-ass shit. Like, and look, jazz musicians have invented some good terms like jive, jive ass shit, to be, to be like, well, you shouldn't do that. You don't know anything about where anybody is, like, the world is not the same everywhere. Okay. It's true. So, like, I like to at least come from a place of, like, hoping that people are going to

listen and want to come together on these different things. And you're not to see eye to eye on everything. But you do, I mean, look, the product, the, the, the, what do they say? The, the, um, proof is in the pudding. Yeah. Like, with all these wonderful, Camille Thurman. I mean, I know she's kind of getting more known. but I mean, I've always loved her playing and like her spirit and I got a chance to play with her

a little bit. Not that that validates, but when you're close to somebody and then you really get a chance to hear that. I played with her right before the pandemic and I could not believe it. Yeah. How powerful she is. Yeah. On the instrument. So I mean, you know, these things are it's a crime that she's not more celebrated. Right, right. Yeah, let's do that good work. Yeah. All right. Well, nailed it. You'll hear it.