You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Stop Clinging To Music Theory

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Adam challenges us to stop depending on music theory.Want to see try out those dreamy CUSH chords yourself? Check the LINK.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, what's up? What is the difference between a natural minor, a relative minor, a parallel minor, and a minor blues? Ascending or descending. Oh, boy, that's not even one of the options. Melodic minor. I'm Adam Ennis. Oh, sorry.

I'm Peter Martin. I'm listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Peter Far listening advice coming at you and the largest hydration. Kind of boogey drink. For the listeners, let me just describe what Peter's drinking out of. I don't even know, actually want to know yet what you're drinking. I assume it's a smoothie. It's my special smoothie.

It's some kind of vegan protein smoothie. And there, we just lost all our viewers. As soon as you said vegan smoothie. So listeners, if you're watching on YouTube, you could see it. So first of all, it's sort of a clay-colored, earth-tony hydroflask. It is enormous. That's got to be at least 128 hours. It's hydroflow.

Hydroflow. Which is currently in litigation with the hydroflask company. Of course. Of course it is. It's got a giant handle. So let me ask you a question. So when you get in your giant SUV, which I assume you drive when I see that. No?

No. Okay. Man, that thing is. This belongs in West County. This belongs in West County, doesn't it? Honestly, yeah. And also, by the way, as I look at you, too, you got a hat on that says, N-O-L-L-A. Yeah.

Nola. Shout out New Orleans, Louisiana. What's your shirt say? Oh, so this is St. John of the Bayou, who is the, you know, we have patron saints in New Orleans for everything. This is the patron saint. We have patron saints in. What neighborhood in St. Louis is New Orleans in again? We're in St. Louis, Missouri, man.

So I'm sorry, we can only have, wait, what do you have on your shirt? Nothing. Okay. I don't like to advertise. St. John of the Bayou is the patron saint of kayaking, which is a little bit of an inside joke. This is my old neighborhood. Is that a St. John? Is that a joke?

It's a little bit of a joke. Okay. Well, the fact that this religious gentleman, we'll just leave it at that, is also holding the beer here. Oh, I get it. Okay. Well, listener, there can be no question that Peter's heart lies in. Shout out Mid City. Shout out Bay of St. John. Yeah. Shout out City Park. You got a big piece of you that still is in. Shout out Mystery Street. New Orleans. Yeah. Have you ever talked about why you're in St. Louis and not in New Orleans? It's an interesting. It's a really interesting story. It is. Is that for today? It might not be, but we should talk about it sometimes. It's really great. It's kind of traumatic, but I'd love to talk more about. Thanks for bringing that. your hydroflask, but we have so much going on.

By the way, my hydroflask, Peter? Yeah. What does that say? That says Open Studio. Oh, really? Yeah. You know what's in there? Nectra of the gods, water. Nice. Yeah, not some kind of... From Bay of St. John.

No, well, I hope not. From the Mississippi. Also vegan. Also, well, we actually don't know. There could be some little buddies living in here. We don't know because it is St. Louis City water. It's from the Mississippi River. Our water here is from the Mississippi.

A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people don't want to admit that. If you've ever been around it, you wonder how does that possibly happen? Thank you, Monsanto. That's delicious. Shout out Monsanto. Keep on GMOing. It's a nice tang to it, you know?

All right. Let's get to what we're talking about today. Let's get on the rails. We haven't even been on the rails yet. We haven't even got near the rails. And this might be a third rail that we have here today, which is, you know, that'll kill you. Today we're going to be, the title of today's episode is Stop Clinging to Music Theory. And this came about because I've been thinking so much.

about how we frame the concepts that we're working on in our minds because I've been releasing a string of short videos on Instagram and YouTube and TikTok and Facebook. And I released one that has been kind of a hit, which is really great. And I'll just set up what the concept is behind the video. And then I'd love to get your reaction because I know that you are not, you know a lot of stuff and you're very knowledgeable about music, but you're not a theory nerd. Like you don't sit up late at night reading, you know, Schoenberg's theory of harmony and studying every last diagram. You don't know what I sit up in night reading. I don't, but I assume it's not that via our giant steps episode from last week.

Via the giant steps episode from last week. I assume that you're not. Oh, it brings a glimmer of joy to just, just, just, look at them. Just referencing back. It's one of my all-time favorite moments of the podcast. It's kind of like when you travel somewhere that you love and then you're leaving it like, oh, this is so sad. But then you're like, no, I'll always keep that memory with me. close to my heart.

It's like when someone you know for a long time pronounces like, like the word campfire, like they're like, yeah, camp four. And you're like, wait, what did you say?

Someone with like a college degree. And they're like, it's a camp four. What? Do you say camp four? It's camp fire. And they're like, oh,

that makes so much sense. Or when they're like, you're driving down the highway and someone's like, looking at a building and they're like, I just got what skyscraper means now. It means they're so tall that they're hitting it. And you're like, that's what it felt like when you were like,

Giant steps is in major third. Anyway, digressing. But it is, it is related to the topic today, which is stop clinging to music theory, which sounds like a very negative thing, and it is, and I'll tell you why.

Really, please. I put out this video, here's the whole point of the video, right? It's a game that I've been playing in my own practicing. And it's so funny because it's... And we're going to link below to the video so folks can go evaluate it for themselves, right?

I've been working on this for like three months. Just in my own practice, I've been doing this as a way to sort of like discover interesting chord progression and help, I find it so much fun to do and also enlightening about the function of modal interchange. And that's where we kind of get off the rails

with some people when I posted this. So the whole point of the exercise is this. We play any chord progression, let's say in the key of C. We'll do something like one, very simple, right? Again, C, F major, E minor 7, D minor 7, C. Very simple. Yes.

Now, the fun game is that, with something like modal interchange, the way I like to think about this, and I'm wondering how you would think about this as well, is if I replace numerically, like I use the same Roman numerals, but I change everything except the tonic to go up a minor third, which is a very relative key center, right? It's a key center that a lot of songwriters and composers use to go outside of any given diatonic key. It's one of the first places people go will be that relative, what people have been calling the relative minor, which I disagree with, by the way, and we can talk about that in a minute. But, is that key, that major key, a minor third up. And everybody's like, we'll get to this a second. Anyway, so here's the exercise. One, four, three, two, one. Everything except for C goes up a minor third. So one, and now we go to the key of E flat.

What's the four? A flat. E flat. What's the three? G minor seven, two, F minor seven. And then back to C, because that's, we're keeping the one the same. So it's just, and the way that I play this game is I do one right after the other.

So you can hear the difference. What I love about this exercise is it isn't thinking simply of the parallel minor, right? It's not thinking of the modal interchange because the function of 4-3-2-1 remains the same, even as we... It started off by thinking about backdoor 251s, right? So a 2-5 and C is D-Miner 7, G7C. And then a backdoor, which is very commonly known as F-minor 7, B-flat, but I was like, that's still a 2-5.

It still wants to go there, but it sounds... It's so hip used in the key of C. We're not in the key of E-Fled. We're in the key of C. What if we do that with other changes? So what if we did one and just replaced everything except for the tonic? So one. It's so much fun.

Okay. So I released a video where I kind of like set up the game for people. I didn't really tell people it was a game. And so a lot of people. Game changer. For me it's been a game changer because I'm having so much fun like discovering these sort of what we'll call backdoor courts. Maybe I should just rename. name it backdoor core changes.

So what was the other thing that somebody said it was parallel? Parallel minor. That's been the, can you start rolling some of the comments I got? This is just from Instagram. By the way, there are even more on TikTok and YouTube of these. Glad to see many commenters are pointing out that it's just a modal shift, aka borrowing from the parallel minor. Nice job, guys.

Snarky. Keep going. So the parallel minor is, is that actually the major that's minor third up? Yeah, I mean, it is, in my mind, parallel minor is useless to me. I didn't know what it was. Me neither, but it also doesn't make any sense if I want to do this game. Like so instead of- I mean, is that a commonly known thing as you're going up a minor?

So here's the thing. Here's why the name of this episode is stop clinging to music theory. Everybody here is just like, oh, this is just parallel minor. This is just this. And it kind of shuts down to me the conversation about like, but it's not just, like, when you learn parallel minor, do you learn this game, which is. explaining the function of these core progressions and then taking them up and the function remains intact like think about this chord change that one's really fine science has finally

found a hardest way to describe a major six chord in e flat that's not even close to how I'm framing this game but it's like people want to sort of really try to put some kind of concrete construct to the the concept there's a lot of cons but I find that liberating to just release yourself from this and try to find different framings for the same thing. That's which is exactly what this is. Of course I know the concept of modal interchange and parallel minor, but to me it makes not nearly enough sense practically when I want to discover new things as doing this.

So this, or change, right? You hear it in so much music, but why does that work? It's a four, five one. It's four, five in the key of E flat. So, but in the, in C minor, that would be what? six, seven. It doesn't, that's not four or five one. Yeah, we're temporarily going somewhere else.

We're taking the listeners. It's like, can we use theory to explain things in the way that someone that doesn't know anything about music, a listener? Yeah. Would feel the music. To me, that's what music theory is. Once you go beyond that, it's like. It's not meant to like shut everything down as far as like, well, that's just this.

It's not just that. Like, it's merely, I think the best theory and the way the use theory the best is merely as a jumping off point. It's usually an imperfect descriptor, which I'm going to talk about in a minute. And I love if there's, because we never, you and I have never had college level. I had some jazz theory. Not, I didn't. I tested it out of jazz theory, ironically, even though I'd never have a music theory. Well, yeah, when you could still test out of things at the new school. But it's like I've never had a college level music theory class, so I'd be really interested in how people describe things like minor keys. Because that to me is a big hiccup in thinking about this in the

same way as a parallel minor. It makes no sense to me to think about using chords from a parallel minor, which people are calling the Aeolian, isn't that, first of all, just E flat major and you're adding an extra step. E flat major, and now I have to go to the six degree. Right. And now the degrees are different. So four or five in C minor is, right? And then also, Peter, let me ask you a question. Another thing that I don't like about the term parallel minor for, I know I'm getting really, I have opinions on this. I'm going to look up parallel. Is that really a thing? Apparently, so many commentators are saying, but if you consider it parallel minor, you're leaving, like, you're just saying it's minor is the Aeolian. Yeah. Which is not minor, a minor key is not the Aolian. It is in the

key signature, but the key signature doesn't paint the whole picture. The key signature is incomplete and is not a perfect way to describe a minor key. For instance, Peter, what's the tonic of C minor? G. No, what's the tonic? Oh, C. Sorry. See, I thought you were trying to trick me there. This is how much The music theory, Peter, really needs to order. C minor. C minor, right? That's the tonic. Yeah.

Right? It has to be. What's the dominant chord? G7. G7. G7. G dominant seven. Now, that would have a B natural in it.

That would. Where is that represented in the key signature? Well, that's what I alluded to in the intro with the ascending melodic minor. But that doesn't have its own. That doesn't. The key signature of C melodic minor is the key of F is one. But doesn't this go? Yeah.

No, you're absolutely right. Right, G minor to C minor is ridiculous. But it's not even a key of F. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a real key signature. Right. So if we're at three flat. No. What is C minor? Yeah, three flats.

Yeah, but it's, um, but wasn't that used to, you know, that was a descriptor and a system that was established when the music generally was flowing. And I, I can't tell you when this was hundreds of years ago. But you can, you can listen to European. A lot of the fives, but not. Like that was later, right? A little bit later, but it was still talking 19th century here. Fives would have a dominant seven chord, which wouldn't be in the key of three flats for C minor.

Right, but it goes back to the whole problem of trying to take nomenclature, a system of explaining something that has the function of it, the form, the function, and the usage and how people can listen to it and enjoy it. And like long ago has left those descriptors, right? Totally. And this is, I think, what I'm trying to hopefully convince people here. of is that like the system we have for describing this stuff is imperfect and it seems like a lot of people are like, no, there's an answer for everything. We can describe it perfectly. This is just this. This is just that. And it doesn't seem like it's straightforward. A minor key is the perfect example of that. In practicality, in music in the last hundred years, minor keys don't represent

everything in a minor because the primary dominant chord, G7 and C minor, is not represented in the key signature. And that's a primary chord. And we talked about this before. In reality, a minor key contains every note from the fifth back up to the tonic. So in the C minor, like you could use chromatically everything from G up to C because it's in the melodic minor, it's in the harmonic minor, and it's in the natural minor. All three of those scales we could use to build around the key of C minor and are practically used by songwriters and composers to build in C minor. We call that a minor mashup. It's a minor mashup. Minor is a mess, man. Minor takes a lot of work to make a minor tonic. Yeah. And I would love to, please just tear me down with this, as I know our dear listeners

will. If I'm wrong, but I know there are probably doctorate level music professors here. How do you explain a minor key signature and what do you call the primary dominant in C minor? Is it G7 or is it G minor? Right, right. No, it's definitely not G minor. But it's just, I think this speaks to maybe a bigger issue that we're not going to solve, but I think it is interesting and it almost gets into like a little bit of a cultural thing as far as like, if we're explaining modern pop music jazz, I mean, we like, so you start doing stuff like that, you know, Stevie Wonder. But that's been around since Poulank, like the French in the early 20th century. Right. But it's like we need to be able to, I think it's still useful. I wouldn't say throw out

music theory. But let's throw out trying to explain in a 300 year old way music that has evolved and certainly has some of these elements and influences. And there's some useful things that we can take for that. But let's throw the other stuff away. And so the first example, what was the one you did before, the A flat up to the B flat to the C? Yeah. So that's four, like the four to five of a minor, like let's just call it a minor third above as opposed to parallel Because that's what it is. Even if you're saying it's C Aolian,

that's a mode of the key of E flat major. It makes more, like, it's kind of like, there's always multiple ways to explain something. Right. But what is the simplest way, it's not always, sometimes it's deceptively simple to say,

well, we're going to explain A flat to B flat all within C because we know we're not really going to another key. So like traditionally in Classical music, you know, I remember learning like, when do you go into another key signature? You know, and then like how long do you have to actually be there? That's like a big deal.

In this kind of modern music, that isn't a big deal. We go in and out of that stuff. That's part of the reason we don't even have key signatures a lot of times. And I do. I have a lot of actually don't want to seem like I'm trying to be too stalwart on this because I understand that whatever you grew up with, honestly, is usually the easiest thing for you to understand. So if you grew up with like a parallel minor system and that's the first way you learn this,

I think for a lot of jazz pianists who have to transpose on the fly and we're playing tunes that are dipping in and out of keys pretty seamlessly. Yeah. And we think about, like, if you're playing, you know, have you met Miss Jones? Like, we don't think of this as flat three minor, flat six. That's a two five heading to G flat, but it's really, yeah, this is a two five. Because it's easier to hear it like that, to understand it like that. Right.

And to, like, it's just easier, right? And so it's a dogmatic approach when you say everything has to be within this, because you haven't left the key yet. at the bridge it goes to the four core yes of course it does but that doesn't mean everything before that has to be explained and isn't that what music theory is supposed to be about to explain it's like the science of like there's water right we all drink water whatever but the science will tell you this is a certain type of atom hydrogen and oxygen put together in this kind of thing which is kind of interesting so how do we describe the interesting parts to this in a way that is not dogmatic I think for most

player players who use music theory as a as a way to help them develop You just need to play a player. You need to find what works for you as far as how you think about it. Even if that means I'm not going to put a big frame on this. I'm just going to let it be as it is and not know what to do over a minor or whatever. That is also a frame. Yeah. So I think a lot of improvisers approach this from a very practical standpoint of like,

what's going to get me to these sounds that I love to hear? What's going to make me remember them? That's how I build my own. And I know you build your own theory. I've heard you talk about things like the diminished scale as the altered scale as like a whole tone and diminished scale mix. And I would never think about it like that, but I get why you would frame it that way. And if it's helpful for you to remember it, that's all that matter.

Yeah. And I think that like I suddenly don't want to come across as like we're anti-therian. It's like just feel it and just here because this can be very helpful. And it has been to me with a number of things. It's not always necessary to know this stuff, but it can be helpful. It can be helpful. And it can definitely be fun. But let's not get to the like parallel minor versus.

is, oh, you're just shifting up a minor third the way Herbie does on such and stuff. Like, those are both fine ways to say it. It's the same thing. The idea is just that you're understanding why something sounds cool and you can duplicate it. And then you can replicate that.

Yeah. You can call it, you know, a spotted, you know, three-armed pig, if that's the name that you want to call it. Yeah. But getting just super hung up on what we're done and this is everything. Like music theory is not settled by any means.

No. And it's always changing. because it's describing people that are out there on the boundaries exploring sounds. Right. And exploring ways to get these concepts, you know. And the easier way from one person to understand or to both explain and to understand something new or to hear it and then be able to like apply a little bit of, you know, theory to it is different, right? For everybody. I mean, not for everybody, but there's like different, that's why different approaches to this.

Totally with the altar scale is like, you don't have to hear it as half. whole half and then whole steps but that's one way to do it. I've heard you explained as like what is it the seventh the seventh mode of the melodic minor. That's how I think of it. Yeah I never thought about it like that until somebody was like

I think Nicholas Payton, I remember he said something he was just like and I was like what do you mean? He's like oh yeah you didn't know I was like ugh but you know that's just another way to kind of unlock things and then some of the greatest teacher Barry Harris doesn't think about modes at all he doesn't think or he didn't think about mixolydian he talks about that how

no of the bebop players were thinking about it like that or at least not the ones that he was familiar with. It's not how he approached it. That six diminished harmony. And, you know, that is, again, and then people get dogmatic about that. Well, that's the way to go. None of it is the way to go. It's whatever is working for you and getting the sound that you're trying to get. That six diminished harmony gets you that sound perfectly. Just like if you do the exercises from the art of counterpoint fuchs book, you sound like Hayden. Like you can, you can write like Hayden tomorrow if you do these exercises. Like, it's pretty, it's pretty prospective.

Yeah. But I can tell you that, like, that understanding this now, which I never thought about it like that, as far as, like, I've always kind of understood, maybe not from a theoretical standpoint, but appreciated it. Yeah. Like, the connection between different tonic areas that we can shift to, coming from almost a chromatic standpoint. So if we talk about C major, you know, like, one of the different areas that are closed by and

how to the sound. It works with other keys, too. E flat, like between C and E flat is just the most common. Yeah. You could do this with really any key. C to E is very nice. It's such a great game to play. Yeah.

Like, so if you were to do like, if you were to do like one and C and then change everything, it gets you these crazy sounds, but it's so much fun to do. Yeah. You're just inter, you're literally modally interchanging. You're changing the mode within the, but keeping the tonic the same. And I would put all these kind of things like into the wonderful kind of harmonic bucket of like, like how do you play something that's like ah like fresh or gives a listener like

totally wow but that's not random because like you know like if a cat comes and runs up and it's got a structure it's got a structure that people can connect with it's just in another place you're going on this little it's storytelling it's harmonic storytelling because you're not getting stuck in like where am I right now where am I in the tonickey no we're just going on a beautiful

little journey outside we're going to come we're going to find her way back home and I think that I mean jazz musicians we can talk about you know her being a lot of you know chikerea such a master of doing this at just a meta level, you know, or somebody like Bobby McFerrin is like, he's singing things that like imply these things all the time. He's not thinking about that theory and stuff, but it like when you kind of reverse engineer it with these rules, it's like, ah, he's shifting up a major third, shifting up a minor third and then coming back down. And then it works.

Yeah, and then you get to just abandon these rules and stretch yourself past this. That's what's so fun. That's what's fun about music theory. It's not, again, we're not saying music theory is bad. It's just not the end-all, be-all. It's a jumping off point to explore. I would say that it's a little bit of a danger sign, and I would caution all of us, and I've probably been at fault for this as well, like, let's not dismiss things, even if we look at them at a different way as, oh, that's just, dot, dot, dot. That's really the phrase that has triggered me is that that's just. Because nothing is just.

Exactly. Unless you're saying, you know, sometimes things, and we've definitely, you know, been guilty of this. Feeling so triggered. Yeah, yeah. No, we've been guilty of this. It's like oversplaining stuff, you know. Jazzbrose splaining stuff. Like just kind of any sort of, and then if somebody says, oh, no, that's just this. I love that because then I'm like, oh, shit, that's so easy.

Why was I overdoing it? Because great stuff, there's always an inner simplicity. There's always an inner, like even, if you've been on the Golden Gate Bridge before? I've never had, no. Okay, so beautiful bridge, go check it out sometimes. San Francisco, you'll love it. But I've, like, run on there a couple of times. It's terrifying because I'm afraid of heights.

You look like you live in San Francisco right now, just with the whole shirt. Don't make me get my sling, buddy. Hydroflow a combination. I live in San Francisco. This is the only people in New Orleans understand this. You look like a, and you are a tech CEO, but you look like a tech CEO. Sorry. It's great.

No. But I was going to say the bridge, like, it's such a complex equation that keeps that thing up. They've had earthquakes. The thing was like however many hundred years old. They didn't use computer and CAD modeling or anything or chat GPT to create it. Thank God. But, but it's. But the idea is that like you look at it and as you learn, if you're an engineer, like, and that's

kind of what I see us as, the equivalent of musicians, we're engineers. Structural engineers. Structural engineers. And it's like you can go up there and explain, well, this works because of this, but it feels simple. It feels safe. It feels beautiful. It's something you can build things on.

Yeah, yeah. But then it is fun to kind of get in there nerd out. I'm sure the structural engineers are looking under the bridge and being like, wow, that's that ratio of this to that. And then they argue with each other. But I mean, I don't think it's. anyone's up there like, oh, that's just a bridge. That's just a trust bridge, buddy.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Jesta, because to me that's a phrase that sort of shuts down the conversation. There's nothing else to do. If this is just parallel minor, there's nothing else. We already know all this, just that. And to me, that's like the opposite of what I want music theory to be. I want music theory to inspire and spark these kind of games that we're just describing here of, you know, like that is the most fun we can have.

And it's just of this is. And it doesn't have to be, even like the, maybe it is just that. Maybe it is just parallel minor, up a minor third. And that's what I'm saying. Like sometimes we'll say like, oh, that's just this here, here and here. But then be open to like, oh, there's another way to look at it. It doesn't mean, there's not a right way to look at things.

It's funny because this game has produced a lot of this is just that. And the other thing that I've kind of put out in the world is the magic voicing system. When I first put it out, there was a lot of, oh, it's just Frank Mantooth voicing. And then I would also be frustrated with like, is it though? Is it? But those are dope. People love Frank Mantooth voicing, don't they? Yeah, but it's not, there are Frank Manthuth voicing's the same shape in the system,

but the system is a totally different framing. Yeah. And that's the fun part to me is like, how can we take something that's sort of familiar, expand upon that, add some new ideas to it and frame it in a way that to me makes a little more logical sense. And this is new. This is fun for me to do with this concept too. And that to me is like what music theory is fun for.

It's like working with math. And it's like, there's nothing new. It's just like with mathematics. Totally. It's like, no one's going to, but like, can you look at two plus two in a different way? Can you turn it upside down and it's not, well, that's just addition. Well, that is just addition. But you talk about the Frank Mantoo core, which I'm not as familiar with as you know.

Classic book. Classic book we all grew up with in the 90s. But it's like when people say, oh, that's just so what voicing. Sometimes I'll be starting to explain something that I tell myself, oh, you know, like, I'll use it in some place that's not so what. Just so what. And then I realize, and I love that. I'm like, wow. When these fundamental.

foundational things. Oh, that's just a trust bridge. Yeah, but it's like, what did you create beautiful with it? You're explaining something that has a commonality among, you know, just like people like, oh, well, Bach did that 200 years ago. Great. We're doing this shit now and it's swinging. That's a beauty of humanity.

And also someone probably did it right before Bach in a different way. And Bach just expanded on it, put a different frame on it. We had like 14 brothers and sisters. Yeah. So what wasn't the first time those voicings were played? Bill Evans didn't invent those voicings. No, probably a majeal. Yeah, it's probably much small.

Frank Mantooth didn't event, by the way, the So White Voicing, which is the most famous man. But Frank Mantooth did invent the magic voicing systems. Hey! No, he did not. It's just Frank Mantoo's voice. No, but you know what I'm saying. The fun of it is realizing that it's all made up.

It's all of this stuff is made up. None of it is in concrete and it's fun to play with and try to look at it. And be open. Like, I've been very, you know, just like that humbling episode last week. Oh, it was great. Can we talk about that again? Can you roll a clip? Nope.

Okay. Anyway, we would like to welcome back by popular demand. I don't know if you saw this in the comments producer, Caleb. But we have Caleb Cam. You got nervous what I said. We got nervous what I said. We go out all the way. And we have Caleb Mike too, right? It actually looks really cool with the, what's up?

Poodles. Poodles number two, man. What's going on? Some John Sess background music. All right. Well, till next time, Caleb. Till next time, Caleb. There you go.

Totally missed his cue.