You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - That's Bebop For Ya

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

Adam and Peter goes in depth on Bebop scales and ways to achieve that sound. Check out Adam's course Bebop Scales for Beginners. Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Twitter | Instagram

You'll hear at listeners, what's going on? This is Caleb. You'll hear it producer Guy. And today I'm going to take you deep into the vault of 2019, where Adam and Peter were talking about some really interesting ways of using the bebop scale. So without further ado, please stay tuned. Sorry? That's bebop, baby.

I'm Adam Manus. And you're listening to the You'll Hear at podcast. Daily jazz advice coming at you. is a bunch of bebop shouting. Well, I like to call that BBOP singing, but thank you. Because we're talking about the BBBBBBBBB scale today, because we have a question for one of our lovely listeners. And so I was just getting in the mood, baby.

Lovely listeners. This is from lovely Elias. All right. Yeah, let's hear. Hey, Peter and Adam, it's Elias. I have a question for you guys about Bbop scales. How important are Bbop scales to practicing, you know, and the principle of lining up the chord tones with the strong beats of the bar?

It's not something that Peter stresses a whole lot in the jazz piano method. It comes up in the elements of jazz piano course, but when I do transcription of great players, it's not always the case that the strong beats of the bar are lining up with the chord tones of the change. And for me at least, it's way too much to try to keep in mind when I'm improvising. So I'm just curious, like, how important is this? It seems to be like a really important principle of jazz pedagogy these days, but it doesn't seem to bear out in practice. Anyway, just kind of curious about this issue of buvup scales,

how important are they to you? Loving the podcast so far, seven stars all the way. Thanks. Great. Thank you so much, Elias. And I love that he's like, I'm loving it so far. That's good. Keep us on our toes.

He can turn it any minute. He can turn it any minute. And I like, he's kind of bringing up a little bit of controversy there in that there might be some discrepancies in our, in general, in the jazz world. in our, you know, hitherto, you know, jazz theory being kind of soundproof in saying that there's that discrepancy between the actual practice and the usage and the application of this sort of concept, you know.

But this is true for almost all jazz theory. And I think B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-S scales are another one of these things that I don't think it's like super universal. Yeah. Especially not for real players. Well, I love how you're all. You immediately threw shaking. on just the concept by saying quote unquote before you even said it what do you mean by that so you know like a lot of things the deeper that i've gotten into this and the more i've tried to explain it

for our purposes here at open studio the it's kind of evolved on me a little bit and and i've talked to some other people i had a great conversation with our friend john ellis great tenor sax oh yeah north carolina big shout out brought up bebop scales and he's like what is that you know like he's like i just don't think about things like that he's like i think about using chromaticism to line up, you know, a phrase I'm trying to line up or to get anywhere. But that chromaticism can happen anywhere. It doesn't have to be at some specific specified place. And I think in the way we've done it, the course he was referring to elements of jazz piano, which is our intermediate course. And we just kind of, we're trying to introduce that concept of a chromatic note

in between to make it an eight note, turn a seven note scale into an eight note scale because it does happen to line up. I don't think it's crucial that it always lines up, but it's just another tool that you can use, this chromaticism, and it could really be between any tones. It doesn't have to be between, you know, the root and then the, you know, dominant seven or the five and the six, like in the Barry Harris Sixth Dominus scale, which is some people call the major B-Bob scale, right? Like, yeah, it can be between the root and the two or the two and the three. In fact, that sounds awesome. It can be really anywhere you want it to be, and it can be however many chromatic steps you want it to be. It's whatever your hearing is more important than any theory that

anybody tells you. Yeah. And when I like, you use the word tool, And I just realized maybe we can sort of frame this as like how do we use this tool of the bebop scale but not in a way that we end up sounding like a tool on our instrument. I knew you were going to go there. Did you know that?

As soon as I said the word tool, I was like, he's going to bring this back. No, but that's funny and witty as often I am. But it's also, I think, no, but like the whole thing of like we don't, you don't sit around with good players like John Ellis and talk about, man, I'm going to use the bebop scale on this.

And so there is a little bit of shade from the standpoint that I think with good players and how we use this, yeah, we use the bebop scale, but not in the kind of acknowledged way that you would talk about the Dorian or the altered scale. I mean, look, we don't sit around and talk about any of these scales in terms

I'm going to use them here, but we do try to explain the application of them, you know, successful situations to use them, certainly from a technical standpoint, like how do we master these scales so that we can draw upon the segments of them that we want to at the appropriate time. Yeah.

But I think the bebop scale, for me, me, it's like I didn't really know what a bebop scale was until I knew almost every other scale for some reason. I don't know why it just wasn't introduced to me. I was playing parts of it, which is, you know, the foundation of it just being, well, that's actually playing the entire scale. Yeah, actually we should define what a bebop scale is for people who are kind of in the dark. So, yeah, traditionally, as it's been taught by jazz theorists, the bebop scale is a mixalidian scale. Yeah. With a half step put in between the seventh degree and the octa. So if we're in, let's say, C, there's that little chromatic passage.

Ah, Kranican Bach is in poor shape. It is. Stuck in the pod cave. And so the reason why people say this is good is because then on the beat you get C, E, G, B, flat, C. Is that good, though? Is that good? I mean, it's kind of good. Well, here's the other, the second part of Elias's question here is that, like, isn't it fine for the ninth to land on the beat?

It sounds great. Yeah. Or the 13th also sounds very, very good. In fact, most good musicians could have the fourth land on the beat and it sounds just fine and it's not a problem. I think this has been part of sort of the institutional institutional institutional. Let me try this again. Institutionalization of this music of trying to find some kind of explanation for things, sounds that, you know, greats in the past have invented.

Well, I think it's interesting that you even described it as you did as a dominant scale with the major seventh because I've always thought about this as a major, and this just shows how unimportant either way he is, as a major scale with a dominant seven. There you go. Which obviously equals the same thing. But I think that the application of this is very different than other scales. It's not really a real scale. That's the first thing. It's a major scale or dominant scale, however we want to look at it with a passing tone.

No one uses this as a mode for anything. You build chords often or anything. It's not like, oh, man, when I get to the C-7, I love to use the bebop scale. It's more of a melodic sort of technique, I would say, of a passing tone. And in that regard, so back to sort of Jay Bougy's point, that chromatic passing tone can go anywhere. Yeah. So instead of, you can put it between the fifth and the six.

Or between the second and the third. Or the first and the second. for that matter. It doesn't really matter. It's just a chromatic passing tone. And wherever you are, if you want to land on a G, use as many chromatic passing tones as you feel as appropriate to get there.

Yeah. Now, I do think that there's an interesting part that Elias hit upon in terms of the timing and the number of notes in the scale. And the other scale that comes to mind is the diminished scale, because that's an octatonic scale as well, eight notes in it. But it's a real scale, unlike the, B-bob scale.

Damn. No, but I mean, the thing about the timing of it is like when it really gets interesting, in fact, I'm trying to think if I would ever play just a straight B-Bob scale. Like almost any other scale, I might play that as part of a solo phrase, right? But that's going to be tough to kind of like, one, two, D, four. I mean, that's, that's, you're getting into cornball category. But if you think about the timing of it is actually the off-beats being, as opposed to starting on the one,

starting on the upbees. One, two, three, four. I mean, even that, it's not great, right? No, you're not smiling. The only thing I ever use it for is on a couple of keys that, like, I can rip off these little four-note things really fast. That's all I've ever used it for when I think about it like that.

I know. And even if I play stuff like, you know, which kind of has the, man, everything sounds corny on this piano. Why is that? Granican Bach. It's falling apart on it. It's falling apart. Like that's all the notes of the C of a bebop scale.

But I'm thinking of that more as like almost like an implied G minor over the C7 and it's like a major third to minor third, a blues thing. Yeah. You know, like a passing around there. So it's, I don't know. So the sixth diminish scale, right, Barry Harris's quote unquote six diminished scale, sometimes called the major bebop scale. That actually is a scale that you can build chords off of.

And we talked about this before. Which one is that? I don't even know that one. Do I know that? It has the chromatic step. between the fifth and the six. Yeah. So if you skip a note on that scale, you get a major six chord.

Right. And then you move that up, you get a diminished chord. We're about to drop some twos? We've gone over this several times, so I don't need to go over that. But that actually is something that you can build harmony off of. You can build obviously melodies off of, but there's a whole system to that.

The other chromatic, the other scales that you would put this chromatic passing tone in, not so much. I mean, this just isn't as logical. I'm sure you could do it and figure that out for yourself, but it's not something that's used quite often in that regard. And then, again, any note, a good player can make any note land anywhere and make it sound fine. I think band directors mostly use this bebop scale to try to get their players from, you know, starting their solo like,

you know, you know what I mean? To try to get them on some stronger. Depending on where you resolve it, That could be okay. I mean, it didn't start great, though. Well, we would know how to do that, but like a 15-year-old alto saxophonist who's already 50 cents flat. Right. Well, and I think, too, it's like it really, you hit on this a little bit earlier in talking about the chromatic passing tone can be anywhere. But if you look at, especially from the basic standpoint, like, how does a high school saxophone player, you know, over to C-7, it's like, you know, once they get that dominant arpeger, then they're, like, confident, but they don't leave that at all. but the same way that the minor third

to the major third, when you don't have a lot of harmonic ingenuity or just knowledge or experience, the minor third and major third can be one of the, like introducing that element can be great. And the same thing with this major seventh, which is sort of what makes the bebop scale.

They're still basic saxophone high school player, but they're starting to get a little bit of personality, you know, with some hip rhythms. You look like there's no hope anyway still, right? I mean, your impression of a basic high school player is so accurate that it's a little scary. You have that sound down. Yeah, yeah.

I think there's a new record in your future. Well, we'll see. Called basic high school player, Peter Martin. I'm going to be on saxophone, so I'm going to actually sound like that, too. That's the great thing. Elias, I think the answer to your question is, it's not really that important.

Yeah. And that, you know, great players don't think about it that way, really at all. And whenever I've taught, just from a piano standpoint, like the important scales, or really from jazz improvisation,

you know, we have that as an element, into our program, but it's very de-emphasized, as Elias saw, because it's just, I mean, because we focus so much on, even in elements to jazz piano, on a chromatic scale, almost pushing it in before most people were to introduce it. But that brings this element of the bebop scale out. And we talk about timing of phrases and accenting and stuff. And that's the real thing that I think most players have is this ability to add chromatic passages to their playing to make them not land on, quote unquote, the strong notes, but the notes that they're hearing, that they want to to land on. Now I do think, now I'm just remembering back to like some applications of this that

for a basic player can really be helpful, especially if you start the top and go down on a B-Bob scale, you can start to get, you know, kind of this thing of timing out of the notes that's sort of interesting. One, two, three, four. At least hearing the difference between that. Are you going back on everything we just said? But I like that too because you're ending on the upbeat. There's another wrong with either one. But I'm just saying you can hear the difference that way. So you could take the major scale the dominant scale and the B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B, starting on the one, just basic eighth notes. Like, that is important to kind of, nah, maybe not. I don't think it's important.

I'm reaching, man. Because we're getting towards the end of the episode, man. I'm trying to give them something here. Well, I hope this does answer a little bit. Maybe Andrew cut off that last, like, 25 seconds. No, no, no. Elias, we hope this answers your question a little bit. You know, notice Elias gave us seven stars.

Did you hear that? He did, and we didn't ask for that. But just a reminder that that's a thing we ask. It's a thing that we ask for, it's a thing that we get a lot of. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? We don't get, you can't get everything you want, as the song says. But it turns out with this.

Wow. Yeah, yeah. With this with this. Wow. Peter's showing off his Rolling Stones knowledge or lack thereof. Actually, just a big shout out to Tim. How did that go again? No, I just saw their saxophonist.

Tim, Tim Reese, great saxonists in New York. I just saw them in a gig. It's talking about the Rolling Stones. Oh, cool. Yeah, wonderful saxonels. Jazz saxonist plays with Rolling Stones. Okay, so. Can't get everything that you want.

Oh yeah, I think that's it. I think I screwed up the words to that. You might have. Yeah, yeah. This is, I, I, I, uh, I pronated them. I, uh, I transposed them is what I was doing. Okay. So today we're going to just, since you brought up the seven stars, uh, we did get a nice

review from screaming Jimmy from, from, from the United States of America. Who? What's up? Jimmy. Nobody said, uh, five stars. Uh, no, you know, seven, whatever. Uh, this is a great podcast. I just found this online.

And after one podcast, I'm. I am hooked. Great job, guys. I'm sending my students to your site. Keep it up very much. That's how we do it. Give it away for free. Yeah, that's right.

When you come back, it's still free. Yeah. But I mean, I like that he must have got the right one episode that he's hooked, you know. Yeah, there's only one good one. Yeah. But you know what we're going to figure out which one that is. We've been getting some people complaining that we're talking about the stars too much. And we don't really care about that because we love the stars.

Nobody's complaining about that except our one friend. We've gotten a couple. But I want you, you had, while I'm kind of riffing here, can you pull up that negative YouTube? comment because we want to start balancing our positive comments you we're always talking about the positive reviews and we generally get those but we are getting a little bit of shade on YouTube and the one that you had and I want you to give them your answer to it as well oh okay yeah we got that shade of I wish you guys would chill a little bit on the quote unquote humorous banter so much filler it's a little bit cringe and then I responded and I don't always respond to

negative YouTube comments although it is a fun pastime yeah lately you've started to though It is fun. Speaking of cringing. Because I responded, sorry, cringe filler is a crucial part of our sound. And that is true. Boom. You know what I mean? Fist bump. Yep.

If we didn't have crinch filler, this podcast would be about 35 seconds. And look, just to know for the listeners and for the viewers and the users, we're cringing just as much as you are. Okay? So it's a mutual thing. Don't feel like we're only causing you to cringe. No, but we really appreciate all the feedback, positive and negative. And we love all the positive on the podcast channels so you can. you know hit us up just give us a comment

leave us a review whatever you're feeling wherever you listen to this podcast or on YouTube if that's where you are give us a little like and follow turn on notifications you know about that ring put the bell on put the bell on put the bell on I don't have my bell on for anything that stuff I have no notifications but I want you guys to do it yeah I love it ring our bell that's right

uh well till tomorrow