You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Art of Trading

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

You've heard of Trading Spaces, now it's time for Trading Phrases! In this episode, Peter and Adam discuss the do's and don'ts of trading during a tune.We're spreading the podcast love to our friends at The Upper Hand podcast - see if you can figure out the common link between a podcast about hand surgery and our daily music advice podcast. If you're a sports fan (or just a fan of hands), you'll be interested to hear two medical professionals' take on Steph Curry's recent hand injury on this linked episode.Coming soon - a new course from Open Studio! It's the long-awaited sequel to our Rhythm Section Fundamentals course, where you'll learn how to get the piano, bass, and drums to play as one well-oiled jazz machine. Stay tuned for more details, and check out the original Rhythm Section Fundamentals to prepare for part two.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Peter, hey, we do a lot of trading on these intros. What if we did a whole episode about the art of trading? The art of trading. Sounds good. I'm Matt of Maness. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the you'll hear it. Daily music advice.

Of course it is. You'll hear it. So this is lesson one. Bad trading. Bad trading. We're killing the old granddad today, by the way. Cheers. Yeah, cheers.

So, you know, as we often like to do in the words of the esteemable, is that a word? Esteemable. Estimable. Estimated. With great esteemable. Mr. Christian McBride, I can tell you a few things not to do. Oh, yeah. We like to start negative, and that is to not listen.

And if you don't listen, it's very hard to trade because you hear, see it. You see it before you hear it. Yeah. So this is not how you trade. No, so there are, but there are some, actually some practical things you can put your attention on as you're trading. Being that with a drummer, like say you're trading for as a drummer or with a drummer, or you're trading with another instrumentalist. Are you sure? Yeah, this one good.

I mean, we're getting there, but I think the intro, like, are you sure? It doesn't matter now, we're done. Barrett lovely. Okay. I'm Adamannis. And you're listening to the daily music advice coming at. No, you'll hear it before you see it.

That's right. Yeah. Okay. That's not good trading. That's not good trading. See, we're already teaching. Yeah. It's a, we call it a teachable moment, right?

Because if you don't listen, you can't trade. Are you listening? Do what I say. No, do what I say. No, do what I, yeah. Don't do what I do what I say. That's right. Yeah.

Okay, so the art of trading we're talking about today. Yes. Right. What is number one? Listen. Right. But before we get to that, we are brought to you by Open Studio, which has a number of courses, some of which deal with trading. Did you know that?

It does. You know how many courses have training involved? How many? Oh, of course. Oh, wait for my moment. Well, I was thinking in particular an old gem that we pull out every now and then and have fun with, which is called Rhythm Section Fundamentals. Oh, that's such a good course. That's a fun.

We do a whole thing about trading and playing as a rhythm section and stuff. And we got courses for pretty much everybody now. You know, fun fact, we have our original rhythm section fundamentals. On the way out, Rhythm Section Fundamentals, too. We're not that far off. Yes. So fans of the first one. Is it the same personnel on two?

I can't even remember. It's you and Rubin and Gregory Hutchinson. Yeah. So check that out soon. I got a question for you because you've got your beautiful ironed. I watched you iron that had for 20 minutes before. You're so vain. with your blues hat.

I'm not that precious. Did the blues win something last year? World Series something. Anyway, but this hat, I've come to the conclusion. It's not happening, is it? I mean, this is nice. You know what it is? I'm not a hat guy.

It looks, you know what it looks like? I'm not a hat guy. It looks like a nightcap. And not like this kind of nightcap. No, it really does. It looks like... Like it needs a tassel. Yeah, towards the night before Christmas and all through the house.

Little Petey was at home. Yeah. And you know what I need? I need one of those, like, the long John underwear that's the onesie. I need a onesy. You need a onesie and it needs a tassel. Why do we have these? I'm not a hack-eye, which is weird because I'm politically challenged.

It looks a little, I mean, it looks a little, I can't say it. But you know what? It's so cold out today. That's why I pull out there. It was 17 degrees this morning. Was it really? Yeah, it's a little warmer now. Yeah, it's going to be like 55 tomorrow.

This is great. I love talking about the weather on a podcast. Yeah, this is a week later in a different city than you live. I'm just happy we haven't made it to Byron Lovelace yet. Byron's coming, man. He's our new number one fan, man. He's kind of the mascot of this. this podcast. I love to that his whole appearance here was totally negative. Like he was giving

criticism. Byron, please write in again. We love you, man. We do. Please give us a comment below like Byron, love laced it. And we have a special surprise that you don't even know about at the end of today's episode. We are going to be giving a shout out to some new informal partners that we have. There's a wonderful new podcast. I'm not even going to mention it from right here in St. Louis. Why would you mention it? Why would you bring it up and then not mention it? I'm not going to mention it until the end of the episode. Oh, okay. Because sometimes, our material is a little stale and people won't stay unless they have a carrot at the end. Word.

So anyway, we're going to, I'll tell you about it at the end. Okay. And it's got a fun little connection that you might not even know about. You, young intern Alex, might not know about either with this other episode with the You'll Hear podcast that people are listening to now. So stick around for that. Very exciting. I'll give you a hint.

It's about hand surgery. That's very specific. That's exactly what it is. We're daily music advice. They're like weekly hand surgeon advice. But there's a nice little tie in with you'll hear it. Awesome. Okay.

Cool. All right. So the art of trading. So we already revealed that the most important aspect for trading or really anything when we're playing music is listening. But it's especially important in training because if you're just waiting your turn, that's like having a conversation with someone and you're just waiting to say what you want to say, which is how actually a lot of people do have conversations and it's terrible.

And really, this is a great point. Listen, but I would say for this conversation, like good conversation is just right up there and listen to so much in it. But it's kind of like you can think that you're listening to someone when you're having a conversation from that you can even do all the eye contact. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you're listening, that's not enough. You also have to, you can't put your expectations upon how long their phrases or when they ask a question or when they throw the ball back to you to speak. Like you have to listen openly.

Yeah. And I think that's an important part of trading that gets lost a lot of times, especially in the sort of specific like let's trade fours at the end of whatever, Groovin'Hy. or it's like, let's trade, you know, and the expectation is, okay, everyone has to do it in a certain way. Yeah, I'm going to listen, but you're forcing everybody into a box or forcing the drummer into the box. I don't like that. I don't either. I'm not a box guy. No, we're going to give you some specific ways that you can actually listen and be involved in the trading.

Have your attention where it should be, which is with the person that you're trading with. Yeah. You know, we're not doing this in a vacuum. We're doing this for the connection with the players on stage. So I don't know about you, but one of the first things I go to, if I'm not feeling connected on stage, is I will listen to pick out one little thing. If I'm trading with a drummer or trading with a bass player or whatever. I actually did this just last night in my gig at Thurman's with Montez. We were training for us.

We were playing mostly standards. Our regular bass player, Bob is out on the road with David Sandborn. Drop that name out there. Yes. And so Jeff Tane Watts on drums. Good for you, Bob. Love you, buddy. Yeah.

A little sarcasm in there. But go ahead. Yeah, yeah, no, leave us all behind. That's fine. No, but we had a Ben Wheeler filling on the bass, great bass player. But, you know, we were just playing standards and just kind of feeling our way through a new relationship, right? And so I'm trading with the drummer, and I'm feeling like, ah, am I really into, am I really in this? Like, I need to get my head in this.

So I'll pick one thing. So maybe you and I can just trade a chorus or two of an F blues. Okay. And you go ahead and start, and I'll try to pick just one thing from what you play, be it rhythmic, melodic, intervolic, something. Okay. that you play, and I'll try to then, I'm not going to mimic you, but I'm just going to pull that thing

and use it as inspiration. Okay, so like a trading four situation? Yeah, let's trade four. One, two, two, three, four. Exactly. Exactly. No, so you, I mean, man, it's so much fun to play with you,

but there was so much to draw from, and I was just trying to pick one thing. So I think in your first solo, you did like a little, like a little triplet thing, and you did it kind of like inside the changes. Now, I wasn't trying to mimic exactly your lick, but I was like, okay, I can do like the same amount of notes of a triplet. So you can hear me pick that out.

The second thing, you ended your phrase with this little like, like little sixth interval. So I was like, okay, I can play with six in this four, you know? And I didn't stick with that the whole time, but it's kind of a jumping off point. It makes me connected, like, even just the act of telling myself, I'm going to put my attention on something you're doing and try to pick that out. That means that we're connected in a way that's on a much deeper level that I'm just. just waiting my turn. Yes. You know. Yeah. And I think, yeah, you, I think the, the, the art of trading is, at a high level, is the art of wedging yourself between, I'm just going to wait my turn, and maybe even I've got planned out what I'm going to play, no matter what the other person plays.

And then the other side, which you mentioned first, which is kind of mimicry, which is not a great way to have a conversation ever. Not a great way to have a conversation ever. And it's also like, and it's also like, see? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, and it's, it's sort of, it's sort of, to like some people think, oh, what's difficult is if you're playing with somebody, like say you're a young player and you're getting up at a jam session, you know, with Jeff Tane Watts and you got that opportunity. Of course you're going to be like, oh, my God, now I'm going to be trading with Jeff Tane Watts. It's very difficult to say I'm at the same musical plane as him.

And so we're going to have a conversation. The tendency is to be like, I'm going to totally defer and mimic or or just, you know, play whatever he plays because he's so great. Yes, it's Jeff Tain Watts. Or try to impress with my own thing. Well, that's bad. Conceiving of as a... That's right.

So that's kind of the beginning part of the wedge. You know, you still have to go in the middle. This is not about, oh, am I worthy or whatever. If you're there playing, we're all in this together. And you have to have this ability. And I had this opportunity quite a few times when I was young, so I started getting comfortable with it. It's not easy, but it's definitely one of those things when we're talking about. It's sort of a mindset of what's going to make this...

It almost becomes a solo, I think, when you're trading for it. Like one solo to the listener, but they love the interaction. You know, so, but these, these, it's kind of like the cheap way to go if you just go to mimic. Right. Because even people kind of see through that, it's just like you're banging them over the head. There's some time for that occasionally. Yeah. But you can build to that.

It's a funny thing. It can be a funny thing. But it's not something that you want to use as a tool to connect with a player that you're, you're trading with. But if you are listening to what you're doing and you pick out just one thing that you hear that kind of strikes you, right? I like, it's a triplet. Oh, okay.

And when I get there, I'm going to do like a triplet. but maybe you have a similar shape, I'll start. Yeah. And then let it happen. It's like if you're, you know, if you're inviting some people over your house and, you know, the family's Indian or like a famous Indian chef and they come over and you're like, oh, I'm going to make this great Indian full meal with costumes and all that. You're trying a little too hard, but you might take one element from Indian cuisine or culture

and then working in with whatever your thing is as a nice little tip of the cap. That's right. But don't bang them over the head with it. So I have two other ideas on this that I think I'm hungry for Indian food, as you can tell. That's one thing. man. That place we went yesterday was the Thai place. That was good. Southern Thai curry. That's right. Different country,

different continent, but I hear you. We might have to break the pizza in balance. All right. No, so the flip side of this I think you could do is to and this, the flip side actually requires just as much concentration on what your partner is doing as trying to pick something

up, but that's trying to do the opposite of whatever they're doing. So I'm going to try to contrast you in a way that actually complements what's going on, right? So let's do the same thing. start with the F blues, and we'll trade fours, we'll do two choruses, and I'm going to be listening to what you're doing, and I'm going to maybe pick one thing out, or even just try to pick out the vibe, and see if I can kind of contrast that in a way that it doesn't take us completely

out of the tune, but it definitely is like, I'm trying to compliment you in a way that's not mimicking at all. All right, maybe we'll go a little faster. Sure. One, two, one, two, three, four. Yeah, sorry, I did a little slide down at the end. Yeah, so perfect example. So you kind of came out the gate with some cordal stuff, some fourths or whatever. So I'm like, you know, I'm going to just kind of groove on some chords the first time. The second time, you got even a little busier off of what I was doing. So I was like, oh, I'm going to go even simpler, some melodic stuff. Third time, I'm going to go back to the chords. You're doing these single note things. I can make my own way of this, and it's like a nice juxtaposition of each other.

And it still matters what you play to me, and it still matters what I play to you. It's just a different kind of mindset, you know. And you can, the cool thing is you can kind of go in between these like picking things out and trying to be the opposite it doesn't have to be one of the other all the time but these are just different ways to connect to the player that you're playing with yeah that's good and and probably the way we just did it there was a little bit unusual in that i sort of took what you know how you set it up like i wasn't i was listening what you were doing but we sort of knew that i was going to be leading and you were going to be reacting and stuff and that i think is something that does happen in in effective trading but it's not as you know

you do it more when the moment calls for that which normally i mean first of all we're not doing a lot of trading as pianists, although we did some really fun gigs last year. Yeah, it involved some training, but it was more like playing together two pianos, but pianists just don't get a lot of opportunity to do that. Yeah, for sure. But if you think about trading with a drummer, with a horn player, vocalist, I mean, so many different interesting situations, I think it's important to have all these different ways of doing it so that I don't know that you'd ever go a whole solo of trading like that, but you'd go

into that at the appropriate time. That's right. It's just a way to get you in there and a way to interact with the player you're playing without, again, just mimic them, mimicking them without just conceiving of something that you're going to do in a vacuum. It's a way that you're still involved with the music that's going on in a spontaneous nature.

And I was just thinking it's just kind of ironic. We were talking about Jeff Tane Watts earlier. I remember getting a chance to play with him when I was, oops, dropped that on the ground again. No, when I was really young and totally unqualified to play with him just a little bit. And I remember he did, and of course, I listened to him a lot because I was a big fan of his,

still am. And then over the years, having heard him a lot and playing with him some. One of the greatest drummers in the world. Yeah. But even then I remember like he has a way of, and this was not even necessarily within trading. Like he can be very active in terms of his comping behind your solo.

He has a way of actually kind of mimicking what you're playing, but it's so artfully done that it propels you to play better. Right. The same thing you already play. It's definitely not mimic. I shouldn't say mimicry. It's like a mirror he's putting up. But he'll do it in a way that almost like forces you into developing it

in an interest, not even for us, just assist you. If you'll listen and be willing to, you know, and he definitely does that the way he's painting around you. He's filling in the negative space. But I mean, he's such a great listener. Like, and that really is what it goes. Like when you can hear it. And I know other drummers that are really good and they're more into the mimicry thing. It's like, yeah, you're listening to me, which you're just like, you're just mirror.

It's not even like a mirror when you turn it a little bit and it's an interesting angle. It's just like straight in your face. I see what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. Skap, bada, bada, you know, it's not even like that. Are there any musicians in your, experience at the highest levels that you've been a part of that aren't great listeners or that aren't actively involved in music that are just have blinders on i don't see how it would no i mean i i i couldn't

maybe it's possible but i just i don't see how it could i think that's the biggest lesson from this the next time you're at the jam session and you're not engaged with what the other players around you were doing think about that that none of the players at the highest level would ever play like that would ever have blinders on would ever be thinking about what they're going to play and only what they're going to play next and you know you have some kind of fussy players at the high end as you would be if you were at the Jeff Tane-Watt's level or whatever, or Keith Jarrett, I'm thinking, like, where, I mean, like, I don't know that Keith Jarrett really plays with anybody that's not at a high level.

And then somebody like Jeff Watts or, you know, me. I mean, I'm saying, like, there's some really great players. Jeff Watts is at that top echelon, but he might play with a lot of people and have more tolerance, but he also has that art of uplifting those around him, which is a different skill. Not all great players have that, you know, so that ability and willingness to play with somebody

that's maybe at a lower level than you, but to make them better. Side note here, but I just saw announced on social media today, a European tour for Chick, Christian McBride, Brian Blade, trio. There's a lot of listening going on there, I'm sure. I know.

That's something I've got to see live that I haven't seen live. Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah. Anyway, all right, one more idea about this, and let me know what you think about this, but have you ever tried to continue on, as you would imagine, the person who just,

maybe solo to four, try to continue their solo as you hear it. You know what I mean? So like if you play your first four bars of the loose, my goal would be to listen to what you're doing and actually pretend like it's me soloing and just try to continue on what I think would be happening in that solo next. Yes. You know what I mean? Continue the narrative. And so it's not again mimicking because I don't actually know what you would play. No, it's continuing. Yeah, it's continuing with how that should go, right? Yeah. And I think that's another one that's really useful and I definitely use at times, but probably not as a continual, like, straight trading thing,

but especially with drums. Like, I try to think and really with certain kind of drummers. And look, you always want to let the drummer, I think, kind of conceptually lead a trading, because a lot of time it's his or her solo. Yeah, yeah. So you don't want to be like, oh, this is an equal time for us to all do our thing.

No, this is a time to make their solo, like, let them lead. And they might be opening the door up for you to play a lot, but you're letting them set the tone. Well, you know why I thought of this technique is because I feel like all the great drummers I played with, this is what they do. I know. Like if I end a solo, like, or my four with like,

they'll be like, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. You know what I mean? I mean, great drummers are great listeners. They just keep those rhythms going. Like, they keep the language happening. Like, it's still me playing, you know. And I think, you know, another thing, great drummers, I mean, all great musicians have this,

but the drummers seem to have an even jazz. drummers, especially have an even better kind of overall conception of the architecture of what's going on. Maybe because, I mean, we always joke like, you don't have to know the changes, but the good ones do. I mean, they know everything that's going on. They'll embarrass you. Yeah, if you're not careful.

You know what? I realize, like, some of the best my favorite drummers are like the police man and police one. Oh, yeah, they're foreign police for sure. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, no, I think that's a good one. And actually, I have a little bonus. I didn't mention this. All right. A little bonus. A little love lace bonus for you at the end.

maybe no a way to kind of go next level with trading Byron Lovelace Byron out of Milwaukee Yes but we'll get to that at the end Alex cracks up every time we say the words We only say this to make him laugh He's so unprofessional So unprofessional

And we have to always call out his name When one of us plays behind the other one Talking because that's the impetus For us knowing who he is From that comment on YouTube If you don't know about this Listen to the last two episodes Especially two ago at the end

We really did a nice little homage to Bahon. Bahon. Bahon. Yeah. Baham. So, all right, well, that's trading. Leave us a comment on the YouTube's if you're here. What's a big shout out to YouTube.

Keep on searching. Keep on Googling. You know, and big shout out to Google. We heard they're building things up nicely. We're going to have a bonus. But a special event at the end, you probably forgot already. You've been drinking that granddad. You don't know what's going on.

Remember? What? We promised our listener or something today. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was not the Byron Lovelace song. That's a bonus. Yes. So we are honored to be loosely, just tenuously connected with a brand new podcast. We're going to link below to this.

Like the ligament from my thumb to my forefinger loosely connected. Yes. So the name of the podcast is the upper hand and some friends of ours. A couple of, it's Dr. Chuck and Chris from Washington University Medical Orthopedic Center, some world-class world-renowned orthopedists. That's like saying a musician's name next to, like, jazz at Lincoln Center or something. Like to say, yeah, that's a big deal. Yeah. And especially for the hand here at this.

I mean, people are coming from all around the world to do their specialty, I mean, to be worked on by these great surgeons. And they're super nice guys. And we, they just started a podcast and it's great. And they claim just a tiny bit of inspiration from us, which was fun. And really the only connection beyond it being two people talking about their craft, I think is their passion for what they do. So you might think, well, I'm not in the market for a hand surgeon's podcast, but almost everyone has at least one hand. Well, for pianists is super special. Give me a hand for that one.

We're looking for a hand up, not a hand out. Yeah, yeah. Can you handle that? You know what's funny about podcasts, though? What? Like, when it's interesting people who are very knowledgeable about what they're talking about, I can listen to just about anything on a podcast. Exactly. You know what I'm saying?

And so check them out. I think you might enjoy it. Oh, they do some great. I mean, in fact, we're going to link to one of it. I think they've got already five or six weekly episodes, but we're going to link to one in particular because they go on some sports tangents that are super interesting.

So they do a little analysis of Steph Curry's finger injury. They both worked for professional sports teams. They do that as well. Yeah, they're not working on Steph Curry's. They were very clear to say, but they do have an understanding of his injury and talk about that. They're big sports fans.

Dr. Chuck work on your hand at one point. You jammed it or something? He did. He did a little bit, and some of his residents did. And, you know, as pianists and musicians, hand health is very important. We don't want to have to go to the surgeon level, but there's a lot of good information there.

They've got great blogs. And the big connection is. Peter Martin has good hands, by the way. You can see them. You can see them on YouTube. Well, you see them and then you hear them. But the theme song, I want people to check out, Chuck and Chris's theme song on the upper hand podcast

because you might find a little connection with our theme song. That's all I'm going to say. I mean, you got to dig, deep on your own beyond that. But see if you can check out the connection. And a little hint, it's at the beginning of their podcast, every episode and at the end. So you might want to check out both of those. Awesome.

Cool. So our bonus for trading, bonus tip. Okay. Should we do it? Go ahead. Okay. So this is sort of next level. And you got to have the right group of musicians together.

But I love to trade free form, over form. So what that means is let's try it a little bit between us. So it means. We're going to play a blues. I don't know what it means. But we're going to play a blues and we're going to go free form. And we're going to take it out on this. Okay.

Cool. You'll hear it. One, two, one, two, three, four.