You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Best Thing To Ever Happen In 1960

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

John Coltrane’s Giant Steps isn’t just a jazz classic — it’s a rite of passage. Peter Martin and Adam Maness dig into what makes the album so technically punishing and emotionally electrifying. From the iconic solo on the title track to the symmetrical harmonies, the lightning-fast chord changes, the fiery swing of Cousin Mary, and the full-throttle chaos of Countdown, they unpack the brilliance, the feel, and the mythology. Whether you’ve studied this album or are hearing it with fresh ears, you’ll come away understanding Coltrane — and Giant Steps — like never before.You’ll hear:- Adam’s deep dive into Coltrane’s use of symmetrical harmony and lightning fast chord changes — and why it still stumps players today- A glimpse into Coltrane’s early years with Miles Davis and Dizzy Gillespie- The truth about Tommy Flanagan’s controversial solo — was he lost or just playing it cool?- How Giant Steps became the tune every jazz musician has to face- Apex moments, desert island tracks, and a spirited debate: is Giant Steps better than Kind of Blue?

Yo, Peter Martin. What's up? What'd you do this weekend? Man, I ended up going up to New York last minute. Oh, nice. Yeah, I played this gig, and this dude called this tune that was super hard, and I, like, crashed and burn, and I was like, man, what are you doing? Like, we're just trying to have fun and play some music, and he's calling these, like, crazy.

I bet I can guess what tune that is. What? I can see why you would think that, but it was even more difficult. Oh, more difficult? Yeah. All right, got it. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Now that's easy. That's a picnic. I'm talking about like next level difficult.

Wait, okay, giant steps. Level one. Giant substance. Seven. Oh, for you more difficult? For me more difficult. Oh, I got you. That's it. I can't play this tune. No, I don't know what I'm doing. Listen. Now. No. No? No, just forget it. That I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Music Explored. Explored, brought to today by OpenStudio.

Go to OpenStudiojazz.com for, oh, your jazz lesson needs. And, hey, Peter, maybe check out a free trial. Yes, we have a free trial. We have an awesome community at Open Studio. We do have an awesome community. Don't be scurred. We have some really great players.

We have some beginners. We're in St. Louis. We have a really fun, engaged, and just joyful. We have joyful learners. Like, I'm so invigorated whenever I hang out, especially with my regular Wednesday live class. That's for the Open Studio Pro folks who are not all pros.

Most of them are not pros. That's correct. But they're eager learners, they're joyful learners. They've gotten me so much more inspired when I go to my practice now. When I go to, you know, I'm studying German. I'm doing a little bit of German.

So I've got my own little thing that I'm studying and they really inspire me. So come on over there. As you said, we have a two-week free trial and it's a very easy trial to exit if it's not your cup of tea, unlike some of these. Dozens and dozens of jazz piano courses

as well as courses on Harmony. Things like pentatonic, scales, ear training, and then an entire community that is... Gospel course, I do a little gospel course. Did you know also we're the number one online jazz community of the world? Well, duh. That's Open StudioJas.com. Okay, Peter, today is a big one.

And I know we say that literally every time now. Literally everyone is a big... It's iconic. Look at this. I'm going boom, boom, boom, boom. It's iconic. This is a classic. This is John Coltrane's 1959 classic giant steps. Now notice I didn't say masterpiece. No, but you just said three things that make this icon.

All in one sense. And you just kind of threw it out there like, John Coltrane, true, icon, 1959, iconic year for jazz releases and giant steps. I mean, I think that that is like people, musicians hear it and go,

but I think people, listeners get it and they're like, it's thrilling. It's like going to see, you know, an alley-up at basketball or something. Like, it's just a fun, acrobatic, athletic situation. There's a lot of fire on this album that, whether you're a musician or not, people really flip out

about the energy of this album. And then musicians geek out because there are a lot of technical things happening in the compositions and the playing of this album that are next level and have honestly become a bit of a right of passage

for most young players. You gotta go through cold train changes, man. You gotta learn how to play Giant Steps. I remember, I forget who it was, but someone told me when I was very young, like you're gonna have to deal with Giant Steps at some point. Start now. Just go learn it and figure it out.

You can run from it, but you can't hide. You cannot hide. And it makes you a better musician. All the work that you can do to get to be able to at least have a hold of it, makes you a better musician. For John Coltrane, this is a very interesting time in his career. Coltrane was born in Hamlet, North Carolina.

That's right. Shout out North Carolina. An incredible community. September 23rd, 1926. And, you know, he started his career in the early 50s, playing with a bunch of different people. We got a little bit more important here. This is him with Dizzy Gillespie. Oh, with Dizzy, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, check this out. And they were long to walk. Not Disney's sake. Wait, is train about to walk in the ball? Fifty-one. He's already trained. There's some train stuff happening. So that's a 28-year-old John Coltrane with Disney Gillespie.

And then, you know, later famously... We talked about... We were 25, right? You said 1951? 19-151. He was born in 1926. Yeah, yeah, you're right. So not a as young as, I mean, a young culture

compared to, like, the earliest thing I think I've ever heard is several years before. Yeah, but it's interesting. A little bit of a late bloomer, maybe. Not Miles playing with Bird when he's 17. Right, or Clifford Brown, you know. Yeah, yeah. In the late, mid to late 50s, he then joins Miles Davis's band.

Now, we talked about 1959, but earlier than that, 1957, cooking with the Miles Davis quintet. We're going to get this. And this is going to come. coming to play a little bit later. This is tune up. It's a little bit of. Infamous prestige recordings.

Cooking, relaxing, washing, washing, washing up after the dishes. There's so many to choose from. And so that's train in the mid-50s. He's also making his own albums at this point. On prestige, right? And having some success. I believe this one was on Blue Note.

Blue Note. It's Blue Train. Blue Train. I've heard of it. That's the year. before, giant steps happened. And Train is, he's also playing with Monk during this time, and he's really making a name for himself. He's got such a distinctive sound.

During this time, too, he's developing the sheets of sound, a sound that got him so famous. And in 1959, he releases what we're about to listen to, which is Giant Steps. And it's really interesting album. So he's also on another classic album from 1959, Miles David's. is Kind of Blue, ever heard of it? Well, if you listen to those podcasts, yes. Yeah, and we're going to talk about...

We're going to ask a question, is Giant Steps better than Kind of Blue a little bit later than this episode? Well, it's very close chronologically. You dig into, but they're kind of polar opposites, Peter. It's fire and ice over here. Yeah, for sure. And it's really interesting to hear

where Train is artistically here versus where Miles is, who is definitely his band leader and mentor on the other side of his career. So this is the opening track to Giant Steps, And this is one of the tracks that is one of those rite of passage songs because it uses that sort of three tonic system

that we can maybe nerd out about a little bit. I don't want to get in the weeds on it for our non-nerd friends listening. But you can kind of hear that there's an interesting sound here where there doesn't seem to be a home key for very long. Even if you're not a musician, you can kind of hear... As in like 0.8 seconds per... Yeah.

You can hear that it sounds unsettled. Intentionally. Transition. scale. Love this landing. Is there a more iconic solo in jazz? Maybe not. Tommy Flanagan on the piano here.

There's so much to talk about with just the opening track. Let's take a note by note. We could. So you might have noticed that Peter and I singing along to every part of Trained Solo because I think most jazz musicians know this solo inside and out. There's many thousands

of videos on YouTube of people playing it on their instruments. Vocalists who can sing this solo perfectly. It's like a quintessaliener. solo to learn as a jazz musician when you get to a certain level. Yeah. A high level. A little bit about the band.

You mentioned PC. That's Paul Chambers on the bass. I don't think he misses one beat. He does not. I don't think he misses one cord. Well, he's Paul Chambers. He's one of the greatest bass players who's ever lived. On piano, Tommy Flanagan, one of my favorite pianists from this era.

He, you might have heard, like, he had some struggles on this take of playing through giant steps. And that's because he did not have any prior rehearsal of Giant Steps before they got in here to the studio. Train had actually done a rehearsal session. Right, with a different trio, right? That's right. A rehearsal session with Cedar Walton and Lex Humphreys. Oh, Lex Humphreys.

And you can hear the outtakes of that in some of the reissued. And, you know, Cedar Walton passes on a solo. And he talks about it. He said, I just didn't feel comfortable. he's like now... It's hard. He's like, I was young, knowing what I know now.

I wouldn't have passed on it. I would have gave it a shot. But him and Train were kind of working on it for a while. And Coltrane didn't love the results of that, so he hired this new rhythm section with Art Taylor on drums, Tommy Flanagan on piano, and Paul Chambers on the bass. And Tommy Flanagan, I think, does a pretty fine job of, like,

taking your first swing. Like, a lot of great musicians work through Giant Steps for weeks, months, if not years, before they would even attempt to perform it. Yeah, and I mean, most importantly, we've all worked through it with John Coltrane showing us the way from this recording. He's hearing it for the first time. Yeah, and even with like knowing and like studying, I remember I learned this solo kind of early on before I could really hear everything, so then I came back to it.

I wrote it out my hand. And I don't know that I ever nailed it every known. And then later on, I saw a transcription. I was like, oh, damn, if only I'd had this. But that process of going through it is instructional in terms of how to play. these changes. None of the other players on the record had that because they're hearing it for the first time.

My hot take, this may be an unpopular one. Go! Or maybe inflammatory to some. I mean, it shouldn't be. I think Tommy Flan is killing it on this. I agree. Because he doesn't miss one chord change. Now, he's not playing like train.

And, you know, he's not, but he's playing some lines over it, which is really hard to do. Some beautiful stuff. Unless you've shed it over this for years. But in spite of that, so he must have been reading this. I'm sure he was reading it. At that tempo, it's very hard to, even when you know the tune,

to be able to not missing, he doesn't miss one change. So some might say he struggles, but I would say he's not struggling to play the form. He's just not playing all of his Tommy Flanning and stuff at this tempo over these hard-ass changes. And I also think that it's kind of perfect what he plays because, I mean, perfect. What does that mean?

for what train played before and what he comes back in and plays that, you need a breather. You do. You know what I mean? If he had been like just ripping through like Cold Train was, it would be like, if everything is ripping Coltrane,

then nothing's ripping Cold Trade, right? So Tommy Flanagan, like, took it down a notch, but in terms of like his attenuation with the tempo doesn't come down at all. Yeah. You know, he's hitting all of the changes. He's playing very relaxed.

He's doing his Tommy stuff. I got no problems with anything. In fact, that's why I push back in people that are like, He definitely was never lost. He was never lost. And I've heard some young musicians saying, he gets lost and he doesn't know what to do.

It's like, no. He just kind of pulls back a little bit. He and subsequently made recordings of this later in his career that were absolutely killing. I couldn't imagine anybody going in there without rehearsal playing this any better than that, any pianists. Any. I'm talking about Oscar Peterson.

100% correct. Anybody. Any better than that. And then another thing this really highlights before we get to sort of the main event, but this rhythm section of PC and AT, right? Paul Chambers and Art Taylor are, are a freight train of a rhythm section.

I love this rhythm section so much of Paul Chambers and Art Taylor. They are a powerhouse. I mean, it's so powerful. We're going to hear a little bit more of that later. But, you know, the star of this show for the first track, and the star of this whole album is the man himself, is John Coltrane. It's mind-blowing. What a hot take you have there.

I know. New Svred. The Star of Giant Steps is John Coltrane. This solo is mind-blowing, and we can hear maybe a little bit of it without anything else around it. Hell yeah. Rhythmic calibration of those eighth notes. Oh, when he goes through that stuff.

like, man, like exploratory, spirited, right? And, you know, and he repeats some of the lines. He never repeats anything exactly the same way. But over some of the same thing. Like, he definitely had stuff he played over this.

But his craftsmanship, like, to construct a bigger line that's, you have to construct lines. They don't have to be as long as, like, he's, or unusually long. but when you're stretching over this different kind of harmony, it's like you're going for a walk and there's like hot colds and then there's warm and you're having to navigate that

but continue to walk and he strings together these little pieces of lines to make a whole line and you really hear it there with the isolated saxophone in a way and then of course his phrasing, his rhythmic clarity, the swing and then he's even got some of the blues feel in there somehow over it, especially when he goes to that E-flad and, you know, great stuff. So we talked a little bit about...

Me likey. About some of the ten. technical things, just to nerd out for a bit on what's going on here. So you're going through three different key centers. So usually a song is in one key. And this song goes rapidly through the key of B, the key of G, and the key of E flat. And those are all exactly a major third apart. From E flat down, would be back to B. So it's this kind of symmetrical thing that happens in this song. And it's over the bar lines on top of that, making it even more difficult. It's very difficult to do and execute because you're, as a musician, you're used to playing in a key

and using all of the devices in a key, this rapidly key, key, key, key, key, key, key, key, key, key, key, no. But it just happens so dang fast that it really takes some mental gymnastics and some athletics to be able to do it. This doesn't the first time. When you say going through,

are you counting like B major and then D7 over A? D7 is the new key. And then G major. You're counting that as the same key. So for four beats you're in the key of G. That's right. So 5-1.

Right. Right, and then a 251 in the second half. Right. So there's that. But then adding to the level of difficulty, the degree of difficulty even more is that, so that's every four beats. What's like two beats, one two, it's like one, two, one, two, three, four,

so everything's offset. That's right. But also the actual chord is changing every two beats on top of that. Except for like only what, three places or four places where you're sitting for a whole bar. You get a nice two five. The second half the tune is still super hard. Yeah, but it feels so.

half is so crazy hard that you're just like, ah. But just for people out there that are like, can you stop talking in Latin and please speak in Spanish or something I understand? What that means is, D, D, D, D, D, D. Like all those, every note on the melody, B, D. So that's actually faster.

B, D, D, do, D. We've one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12. We're 12, we're 12 chords in already. That's how quick they're changing. The whole harmonic tonal center. That's right. 26 quarts. Very, very rapidly.

And then, but this isn't like the first time that this, this sort of augmented triad harmony has happened, right? Plenty of classical composers use it before this. And then famously, the bridge of have you met Miss Jones? Does the exact same move as Giant Stops. Have you met Miss Jones? Yes, I have. Someone said, we're getting to the Sinatra,

So we got to. So this is the key of E-flat that we're in. And most tunes would stay around this and maybe go to the four-cord in the bridge, but it's just a relative minor maybe. And most musicians can, like, hang in a key. But this special tune, have you met Miss Jones. We're going to go to A-flat here.

2-5 to E. Down a major third Two five to C Down a major third Back up a major third Yeah but this is going at this tempo I know Super easy

Whereas train does all of that Within five seconds Done Yeah that was it That's the whole bridge I think you're Frank Sinatra on this Giant steps are for me A big old stairs

In a Vegas Okay. Next up is, did you know, John Coltrink play the blues? Did you? Yes, I've said it two times. I mean, I think he's just,

and you heard him walk in the bar in 1951, it doesn't surprise me at all. I think he's a master blues bar. Tell the people how what walk in the bar means. Oh, that's when the saxophone players used to, for promotional and marketing sake, before there was TikTok available to them. They had to physically do a TikTok routine

and get up on the bar. And like walk up and down the bar when they sold them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Walk the ball. So the next track, second track of Giant Steps' cousin Mary, which is a beautiful blues. Oh, those sharp night chords. I love me some

sharp night. Same chord that's used extensively in Blue Train. Fun fact. This is my desert eye track. We called it early. Sorry. I got it right there. Feels good. Be liking. You're swinging their ass in them. How much fun would it be to play a blues with our Taylor and Hall Chambers?

That'd be amazing. Yeah. We're comping or anything. The second track there, every track on this is played now as a standard pretty much. And you can get... It's a strong lineup on this. It's a strong lineup. And I would think, like, let's see, one, two, three, four of these tracks are, I would say, all-time, you can call it any GM session standard. And they're all, like, jazz standards, right? There's no...

Is there... No, they're all originals. They're all originals and really become jazz standards, which is kind of rare during this period. Yeah. You know, to have... But, you know, I was like hearing that solo, this is very foreshadowing of the great Coltrane record with his wonderful quartet,

which had not yet formed, but was probably only a year away. Calvin Jones, Jimmy Garrison, McCoy, Tyner. Coltrane plays the blues. That track, Cousin Mary could have been on, like, compositionally, obviously it's a blues, which fits good, really could have been on there. The way that trained solos. I think that he was such a great,

the blues and the bebop, like such a master of that. He had his own style, but he's so deeply rooted in those. And the walk-in-the-bar thing, which is coming out of the blues saxophone tradition, such a great bebop player. I mean, you hear that on some of those

wonderful lines on giant steps. For sure. Bid-dib-dib-dib-dib-d-d-bid-st Straight bebop. It's just stretched out over this incredible harmonic exploration. Well, our next tune, Peter, is a very famous contrafect. You know what that is? Yes, against a fact. No.

It's fake news. No, it's not. Another guess? Okay. It's when you put a melody over a set of chord changes that's from another composition. That's right. You take another compositions form. Thus evading the publishing laws.

One hundred percent. But in this case, this is actually more than a contrafact. This is a re-harmonization contrafax. So remember tune up from Cookin, Miles Davis, that we played earlier. Very short form. Top of the form. 16 bar tune. Coltrane took those chord changes

and he put what's now called Coltrane changes on top of it. Again, moving through what is a fairly standard cadence of tune up in a couple different keys, but now putting this like three key cadence in it and he called it countdown. Yeah.

And it is... Similar root movement, portal movement to giant steps. And it's even... And unbelievably, it's even a little bit more difficult. And I think it's a little faster, too. It is a lot faster. The track is only two minutes and 25 seconds, and this is really an eight. It's like 75 choruses.

Yeah. It's really an art tailor showcase too. But this is, there's so much to talk about with just this two minutes of 25 seconds. Let's check out countdown here. Yeah, that was one chorus. Yeah. It's like 10 seconds per chorus or something. About 360.

360 beats per minute. That bass drum. That's a well-tuned, well-recorded bass drum. You're okay? Yeah. Down a major third? Major third. Major third.

And that nuts? No, it's just one chorus plus the first phrase. Right, right, right. Yeah. It's like a chorus and a quarter. Man, what a great arrangement, too. You know what's interesting? I just see, we have that both for our...

Wait, we don't want to give it a while. Okay, I'll talk about it. You want to hear the most beautiful thing you've ever heard? Yes. That sounds like what I just heard. Just wait for it. Art Taylor. 18.

18. Art Taylor. Yeah. I got a chance to play with him once. Where's Johnny Coltrane? Gone. Listen to that. Precision height.

So what you're here, that's called the hi-hat. The, um, sock symbol. And then the ding-ch-t-l-ding-ding-ding-ding. That's the ride. Isn't that unbelievable? And then, of course,

tack, cap, snare drum. But playing with the bass drum. Badoo. Snare bass, snare base. You have to be limber, of limbered limbers. Of limber limbs. Man, the temple's so steady, too. Click track, I'm sure. What is going on?

Amazing. It's incredible. It's just poetry, man. It's like the world of a drummer. It's just amazing. And that high hats going out in two and four, right? Yeah. one, two, three, four, one, two, three.

Isn't that something? Man, that's the dance. Art Taylor, everybody. Art Taylor, yeah. So I got a chance to play one time with Art Taylor, and it was one of the, just one tune, one of the swing-inest situations, man, what a master.

And I forgot, like, how, I mean, we always think of, like, Philly Joe Jones from this period of being just, like, the master technician. Art Blake, of course, had his own thing. Jimmy Cobb just being, like, the whole package. But, I mean, Art Taylor for just, like, ride symbol,

I mean, but everything. That feel, that beat, the whole thing through there is just pure mastery. But also on the boop-bee-down. All of it. All of it. Next up, we've got Spiral. This is always the outlier to be in this track. I like it.

I love it. It's like the least known, least played, right? I don't think I've had to have played it before, but I don't remember the last time. Would you say it's the least played? Probably. I bet it's fun to play, though. Yeah. Formidable rhythm section.

really interesting chord structure. Yeah, beautiful tune. Polycords, floating on top. Keeping that form through the whole thing. Next up is Saida song flute. And this was named after Coltrane's adopted daughter Saida. And I think this one

is maybe the most underrated track on the whole album. Oh, yeah. I'll just that really beautiful, simple syncopation. One, two, and two, six, king. Single line.

Oh, great. Activated. Straight to the truth. Straight to the truth. I think that one in a way is the most approachable. Well, obviously we're going to get to a couple more. Maybe we could quibble on that. But in a lot of ways, I think this is not the most popular song on here,

by Saeed's song flute, I think, is the most approachable, just like straight up swinging. The logic, like, such a great tune, which is, boot, bang, can't, hits. Yeah, fun hits. Like, really interesting, fun harmony. blue sensibilities to it. It's great.

Next up, this is an iconic track. This is another, certainly standard at this point in a lot of folks' repertoire. This is the most beautiful ballot, I think,

of this era. And the only ballot on the record, right? Yeah, this is Naima named after Coltrane's first wife, Juanita Naima Grubbs. And this is kind of a precursor to what's about to happen

because, you know, eventually Coltrane feels like all of these slick harmonic movements are a dead end. Or a means to an end. A means to an end. He's not finding artistic meat in it

like he used to. And he moves on to things like my favorite things, modal music, which would lead to things like Crescent and Love Supreme. And then he moves in from there to very, very free outside music.

Ascension. Yeah, there's three, maybe you could say four arrows to trains. Yeah. Are we counting the Walk the Bar era that we've been alerted to? That maybe is the first era. But this is Naima and this is more on a modal front.

And this is also, by the way, happened at a different session. This happened. Everything we've heard so far happened in May, 1959. This happened in December, 1959, really close to when the album was released.

And this is with Miles Davis's rhythm section. Still Paul Chambers on the bass. Now we've got Winton Kelly on the piano. Jimmy Cobb on the drums. This is Naima. touch on that simple sound. Like, understated, like, no one's ever going to be like,

that's the greatest one in Kelly solo ever, you know, but it's so, it's so perfect for what this is. And I think PC, like, kind of the, as usual, the unsung hero in terms of, first of all, playing every, you know, the whole session. But those pedal points, be, beep, beep, beep. Like, it's basically the pedal points over the A section,

they kind of resolve. but it's like the shifting harmony on top of that concert and a pedal point is just something that's happening in jazz normally the pedal point would be with the bass player or like the left hand of the piano but it could be like any kind of lower instrument on the lower registers continuing to play a certain harmony or even just a certain note in this case

I think it's E flat it starts on and then you have shifting harmony on top of that pedal point Bing bing boom boom that continues like to give different feelings. It's sort of like optimistic and, you know, hopeful. Then it goes to that minor 11 where it's kind of, but the pedal point stays the same. And that's PC holding it down.

So it chibudubiha, and then it resolves to a major kind of. But it's still got that pedal point. He doesn't always fully resolve it. So it's such an interesting way to write where you're using, yes, beautiful melody as always, but you're using this harmony to play with the listeners' emotions

and go in and out of like a little bit more aggressive to just beautiful, to love, to kind of, oh, is it going to work out? Tell a story with the harmony. For real. With the harmony. The final track is another jam session standard.

In fact, it might be the most played of all of these because it's... If I said, what's jam session minor blues, go. Mr. PC. That's right. Paul Chishol. So yeah, C minor blues.

Very low key kind of bebop. Yeah, C minor, but very bebobie. pop-esque for sure. Hard driving. Major seven, six kind of.

But using that train phrasing. And again, the rhythm section here just tipping. I can listen. I can honestly listen to the whole thing with just bass and drums. Man, this is such a consistent record. Totally.

Oh, my God. Because even like when it goes to the ballot and it's a different rhythm, well, still Paul Chambers, but different pianists, different drummer, like the intensity of the beat, like here it's a lot of you know ding ding ding ding or like giant stuff ding ding ding ding you know different temples but but there's that same

intensity because of that pedal point the PCs is the the rock as are all great base players for sure but this record like that's that consistency obviously trains phrasing I mean swinging his ass off doing the bluesy and bebop stuff but I think the rhythm section just really gives that accountability and that consistency all the way through let's get to some categories Peter yeah whatcher does around the track. Cousin Mary. Oh, that's a good one. Boopi. I love the way it starts

kind of, you're not sure if that's like, one, two, three, four, or one, two, boopy. And then it resolves itself once they start swinging. That is an interesting. I think the soloing is just, but you know, for this record, I would be so fine. This is kind of low-key, I'm a little surprised.

I'm not tearing up, I'm just scratching my eyes a little bit. What? What do you surprise about? I remember when I was saying off, I was kind of like, I was kind of like this record? No, hold on sorry, I didn't say I didn't like it. But I was always like, this is. not my favorite train record. That's what I said. And I would say it still maybe isn't, but

this is sort of a desert island record. Like, if I was stuck on it, I would be okay with this. As much as people talk about Giant Steps, most musicians I know this isn't their favorite train record. There's something, he goes he eventually goes so deep. You know what I mean? That it's just like, oh my gosh, this feels like the start

of something or maybe the middle of something interesting happening. This is a great record, man. I'm reinvigorated about this. My Desert Island track is countdown. I love playing it. It's been in my repertoire for years. I spent a long time working on it. Such a flex.

Countdown. Everyone else scared of it? I love it. Playing with swimming with sharks. Love it. What about Apex Moment? What's your Apex moment? What's your Apex moment?

I'm looking at yours now. I realize mine's kind of leading up to. Mine is Countdown is everything Art Taylor and Trane are playing. And then Tommy Flanagan comes in. Right. And like the moment, everything that happens right up until when PC comes in. That's your Apex? Yes.

Because my Apex is when PC comes in. Yeah. Well, we can kind of listen to both. But everything before that is what sets it up, right? And the way it's layered in. And that bass drum. The drop in the bomb. The apex.

Yeah, but it doesn't happen. But this is pretty apex. No, it's almost like, it's like putting a piece. Whoa. No, but it's already there. Because check it out. So check it out. Everything.

It's like, yeah, because now you got that bumble. But think about it. You got blah-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And then train, as soon as PC comes in, is like, da-na-na-na-na-na. So he kind of, in terms of, like, the intensity of the phrasing or the delineation of the phrasing,

he actually pulls back a little bit because he's going to the long notes. Melody's king, buddy. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is, like, it's so short that track. That's just a great, the whole thing is the apex moment.

We both win. Bespoke Spotify playlist. What do you got? Better shed, boy. Better shed, boy. I think that wins. Mine was just hard-ass jazz. Why has it got to be hard-ass jazz?

Better Shed Boy is better, though. Up next, what do you got? Boy-E-E-B-O-Y-E-E-B-O-Y-E-E-E-B-O-Y-E-E-E-B-A-Shed. Up next, next, I've got... Do I want to rethink this now? I don't think so. I got Coltrain ballads. So that's a couple of years later, two or three years later.

Because I'm like, after all this, especially countdown, like, I need to just sit back and hear train playing ballads. In terms of like the pacing, if you're going to listen to an hour and a half straight of train, I think that would be a good... I mean, you could go to something else, but... I have training in from Winton Kelly that features John Coltrane and is unbelievable.

I mean, let's be honest, K-O-B would, in terms of what I'm talking about, intensity, same year, some of the same... Different year, but yes. This was 1960. That was 1959. Okay, we just left for a second. Look at the color of my good friend.

Are you okay? Do I need to wave? Okay, we just... We just discovered that this record actually, Adam thinks this is a big deal, I don't think this is a big deal. I just want to be accurate. This record came out in 1960. Can we just move on now?

January 1960. Yeah, that's not a big deal, right? So we're saying that, you know, Kind of Blue came out in 1959, all these other records. This was all stuff that was, I always think it's more important when it's recorded, 1959. That's when all this stuff was recorded, right? This was all recorded in 1959, but it didn't get released to the public to 1960.

We've been saying it's a 1959 album. This is not true. But this is going to go right into our quibble bits. I have a quibble bit that you think it's a big deal that this record came out in January instead of December. I think it's a big deal that I did all this research and got the date of the album release wrong. I did a ton of research.

Leave in the comments because we always think that this stuff is less important or more important. We want to know for you guys. Is that like a thing? I would really rather we just correct the record on this. The record's corrected. We just corrected. What do you got for quibble bits?

That we're leaving that in. I have a quibble bit that it's even an issue. There you go. Oh, no, I did say my only quibble bit, and I'll listen to this record again, it reminded me, and tell me if you think this is fair or not, is that there's one track with a different,

well, it's a different pianist and different drummers, it's not even a full different rhythm section. But I'm always like, the consistency of a record with one band and the sound, and like the piano does sound different on that is a little thing. And I don't even know if I noticed it the first one,

but as soon as I knew that, I couldn't unhear that. So is that valid? Is that a valid quibble bit? Yes, it is valid. But I like the track that they're on. Right. You know what I mean? Recorded in 1959 for the record.

Snobometer. Oh, wait. I have a quibometer too. I see red when I listen to this album. Like a little synesthesia. I honestly see like a harsh red. You love that. I see red even on countdown.

I have not mastered it. But I see red. Does anybody else see red? It gets me kind of fired up in a way that It's not like enjoyable. Right. You know what I mean? It could be a little bit of angst.

No, not angst. That's more like depressive. I'm talking more like... Anger? Anxious? Passive? Oh, anxious.

Maybe anxious or maybe like... With lots of zeal. Like I want to go to work. I want to practice one of... Which is good. Yeah. But it kind of makes me... Like a tiger's eye.

The older I get, the less I want to put on this album, the more I want to put on balance. That's what I'm saying. I could see that. I would say, it's interesting you say that the, um... What's the word you just used? Anxiety. Anxiety.

Anxious. Or being anxious. Like, that's kind of how Tommy Flanagan navigated playing over Giant Steps was like with no anxiousness, no angst, no, like, nerd. Like, he lowered the bar. Like, he lowered the stakes. He didn't lower the bar at all, actually, the way that he was playing. He lowered the stakes. And that's such a beautiful way of doing it.

Like, he almost, like, that was almost like a deep breath kind of solo. He's just like, I mean, could you imagine playing over that? Never rehearsed it. and you got to play after Coltrane just nailed the thing seven choruses in a row, you know? 1959, amazing stuff happened that year.

Snobometer. Yeah, but this was 1960. No, no, no, it was 1959, it was recorded. Snobometer, okay, I've got a... We're gonna have to go with five. Why? The old classic five. Because I can't figure out if it's one or ten, the usual.

Like, it's not a snobby record because it's John Coltrane Giants. It's one of the most popular jazz records of all time. It's on every top ten list. Like, you can't escape it. but it's literally a musical exercise for people yes but it's wildly popular wildly well known unless you're saying

you think it's just like a facade that people it's like one of those things like i love shakespeare but i never actually read it everybody knows this record everybody and their mama it might be a little bit of like oh yeah no no i i read kirkegaard like it's a little bit of that for people i think oh yeah yeah i like giant steps yeah that makes it five then right i think it's kind of ten but okay is it better than kob man i just marked out my thing i had no I'm saying maybe.

Oh, my God. I'm going with a maybe. I'm going with a strong face. No, it's not. Okay. Why not? I haven't had a yes or no in so many weeks. No, we,

talking book. I said yes. Okay. Voodoo. What did I say for voodoo? Maybe. You said maybe. Well, it's good.

Man, sue me. You know what? I'm not a binary kind of guy, man. Maybe. Ocoutrements. I'm moving 7.5. I'm going 7. Okay.

Hey, leave us a comment. Here's a review on Apple Podcasts. If you're listening to this on your podcast, leave us a rating and review. This is from 80. This is called Fantastic with a fan in parentheses. This is by far my favorite music podcast. It's always fascinating to listen to musicians to talk about music. Peter and Adam are obviously great musicians. You'll hear it, pun intended, in the always fantastic intro and outdoor jams. I learned something new about albums I have loved every time you discuss one. I have two requests. Can you please discuss the great Aretha Franklin's young, gifted, and black

Yes. We take requests. And a playlist of your outro jams. So that playlist is our new Open Studio Music, YouTube channel. A separate bespoke channel. A separate bespoke channel. And there's an album coming out that's going to involve. Soon to be on Spotify or Apple Music.

A lot of our outro jams. Hard copy, LP? But great call on the Young Gifton and Black. One of my favorite albums. I was just thinking about Aretha Franklin and like how we, there's one other record. I'll keep us, there's two other records. I got a dark. Yeah.

Well, that was kind of the... We've got to do amazing. Or Young Gifton and Black, Amazing Grace. But I've got a third one that's a little bit of a dark. course. Which is. I don't want to say. All right. Let's just say it's from the 2000s, believe it or not. You'll hear it.