You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The First Great Album Of The 21st Century

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

Adam and Peter go in deep about the iconic Joshua Redman album "Beyond' and attempt to discover exactly what makes this album so great.Check out "Beyond" for yourself.Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Okay. Yeah. Peter, I'd be surprised if our computers work through this whole episode, as they might not be Y2K compliant. That's good. Very good. More on that shortly. I'm Adam Mammis.

And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear It Podcast. And we are traveling back in time via Joshua Redmond and his fabulous quartet to the year 2000. In the year 2000. Remember that Conan bit in the year 2000? Yeah, of course. young for that? No, I'm too old for it. I'm right at the sweet spot. Today's episode is brought to you by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJazz.com for,

oh, your jazz lesson needs. Peter, man. It's another what makes this album great. It's perhaps the first great album of the 21st century. And it's also perhaps the first album of the 21st century. Released April 20, I almost said 20, 20, released April 2000. Yeah, that was a while ago now. A long time ago. This is Joshua Redmond. this is Aaron Goldberg on piano This is Some of our younger

listeners and viewers Perhaps And maybe some of our older ones That don't remember Y2K Give us a little Refresh on what that was about Of Y2K? Yeah

Why was that a scary time So okay a couple things It stands for It stands for Y'all 2000 No No oh the year 2000 It stands for a year 2000 There was some concern

that computers had been built, and I'm like, this is something that my kids would not know about, that computers would have been built with years as just two numbers. 84, 89, 96, 99, 0, and that some computers would take things

like banking records or other things. I'm totally messing this up. Someone who's a computer letter. It would basically be like a dozen, like as soon as we hit the midnight on, going into 2000, does not compute. And the whole structure

going to fall apart. Everything would fail because it would think it was 100 years earlier all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do think, though, there was some work that people did to, like, there was a lot of work. Make sure that it, if you did some work on computers in the years leading up to 2000, please, like, put it in the comments what actually happened. Right.

Or did you have to do work on computers? Or did it just, was that a big nothing donut? Let us know. Nothing burger. Nothing salad. Sorry, I put you on the spot to explain that phenomenon. completely interrupted me introducing the band uh thanks for that uh Aaron Goldberg on piano Rupert Rogers on the bass Gregory Hutchinson on the drums I thought we get into that as we get

into the album but that's good okay go ahead I was trying to bury the lead you're you're leading with the lead I was just in the middle of introducing this great band so we've listened to this album during the pandemic I think in one of our listening sessions we talked about it before it's been an influential album for us Peter you I mean it was for me because I was a kid yeah I was a teenager you, however, were in the previous version of this band. So, like, this happened after your tenure in Joshua Redmond's band. It was a few years later. I guess there was kind of an interim band.

I don't remember the exact timing, but with Samuel Hill on Oregon. Was that after this? After this, yeah. Oh, that was after this. Oh, yeah. So I guess this was... I think. I mean, I know that...

No, you're right, right. That they made that... What was it? Elastic stuff. That's right. Yeah. But Timeless Tales was... before this actually and that was brad meldow right that's brad mellow so that kind of went so when i came

in um it was after the brad meldow brine blade well brian blade stayed over um christian mcbride and brad left the man and then i came in i want to say 95 but it might have been 94 and 94 for like the next three four year brine blade chris thomas peter martin joshua redman that was the quartet and then peter bernstein came in in like 96 or so and it became a quintet Fun fact. That was a great band. Yeah. But then this was sort of the next band,

but he did kind of go back and do a record, at least one record with Brad Meldow, Larry Grenadier on bass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Brian Blade, which is a really cool record. Is Timeless Tales record? Timeless Tales, exactly. That's a good one too.

But this record we're listening to today beyond, I love this record. I think it's such a, I mean, I'm a big Joshua Redmond fan, even before I play with him, and after still, and he's a good friend. He's one of my favorite musicians and just people on the scene.

I kind of came up with him. You know, we're about the same age. I think he's, it's been fun for me because I've sort of seen him at different stages when I first met him. It was kind of before he really blew up.

He actually came down to New Orleans when I was down there the first time me and Brian and Chris played with him was with Delphio Marsalis, fun fact. And I guess Delphiel knew him from Boston at Berkeley or something. I can't remember.

Mark Turner was down around the same time. Delphia was kind of a connector back in those days a little bit. I might be screwing up the dates. And the people. No, I think it was... Early 90s. But then, you know, Joshua really took off

after he won the Thelonious Monk Jazz competition. I don't know if I'm saying it correctly. But yeah, the monk competition, right? And I believe that was the first time it was for saxophone. And he did a record called Wish, which is on Warner Bros.

He got this big record deal with Warner Bros. This album Beyond is still on Warner Brothers. Right, right. Yeah, no, he was on there for a while and after the... made a bunch of records, and this was sort of in the heyday of the Young Lions thing, and you had Columbia Records, then you had Warner Brothers kind of coming in strong, and then there was Verve.

Like, those were kind of the big labels, really making interesting records with great musicians, and really giving the artists a lot of, you know, resources and sort of resources for them to do what their vision was. And I always thought Josh was great, and on this particular record in particular, at sort of coming up with a concept, a musical concept, and putting personnel together and what really became one of his great bands, his sort of next great band, I would say. This was a great band.

Yeah. Did they make anything? Was it the passenger time with the same band? Passage of time, I believe so, yeah. Yeah, was right after this. Same group, that's right. But, I mean, the point is, like, this record beyond is all originals. And so, like, it's a little bit,

it's not necessarily a risky thing, But I'm sure it came up at some point with Warner Brothers was like, hey, you want to play Star Dust. You want to do a little bit of summertime. And I think there is a little bit of summertime snuck in there. But this is, I believe it's entirely originals. And it's not necessarily the kind of thing that you put on and say, oh, this is a jazz hands kind of record. It's sort of the opposite of that. But I would say that this is also a very successful record and a great entry point into the world of Joshua Redmond in a way.

The other thing is like he doesn't really, this became a great group with Aaron and Rubin and Gregory, but it wasn't at this time. Like, I mean, this was like one of the first things they did was record this record, I believe. I know they had played together some whatever, but the band developed as the years after this, and even with this material,

I know Greg Hutchinson has told me like, and Rubin and Aaron. It was like, they weren't really comfortable with this material. And it's very tricky some of the music that Josh wrote. But I think they're just killing it. And I love like their kind of, It's almost like an innocent approach to this music as opposed to, yes, I heard them play a lot of these tunes years later where they're just totally mastering it. And here there's a little bit of sort of exploratory of a feel to it.

And I just want to play again that beginning. And I think the way this record comes in, I don't know if we have a category for how the record starts. Well, let's talk about the categories real quick. So we have 10 categories to rate this album. Each one is worth 10 points. We've got number one playing, number two, vibe, number three compositions, number four sound, number five sequence. Yeah, okay. So that would fall into that.

Number six, cover art, number seven, title, number eight, lore. Number nine, snobometer, which is a combination of would Aunt Linda like the album or would Ethan Iverson like the album? And then number 10, is it better than kind of blue? Right. So those are our ten categories. Okay, cool. So let me just play a little bit at the beginning.

I know I'm going to jump around a little bit, but... Okay. Stop. What a way to start a record, though. You're usually the one to do that. But to me, this... This passage is a perfect start to the record because it signifies a couple of themes

that are going to happen, which is the bass and piano left-hand unisons, which are all over this record. And I was super influential on me. In fact, I have an example of stuff that I wrote. Can I just play another quick example? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the second tune belonging,

lopsided lullabot. Not that this hadn't been done before, but this is definitely like a sound of this album mixed with the mixed meter, right? So we have some odd meter stuff. Those are kind of the two things. big themes. The hallmarks of this album and what made it so viby. I saw

this band tour with this in 2000 here at Jazz St. Louis and I was so influenced by it. It really kind of made me decide to move to New York. Made me decide to go to the new school and study with Aaron Goldberg, who's playing piano on here. Well, we could say, what makes this album great? Made Adam move to New York.

That's one thing. Kind of, yeah, kind of did. But that's big. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, like, that's the way black coats for the underground for me was like, this is where I want to do this. And seeing Rubin and Hodge up close to this stuff's crazy. So I was just going to say what you pointed out there with the piano left hand in unison

not an octave with the bass like that had been done before obviously for years and Joshua had used that like that's a kind of hallmark of the way he likes to write and compose but I would say that yes it's such an instructive thing for us to see how this album is constructed

when you place that at the beginning of the first two songs so here we go and I think for most people they'd be like, oh, that's great bass player. Who's that, Ruben Rogers? You clearly hear the piano, but it's a bass line. It's pretty tight. And the songs, the tunes themselves are actually pretty simple,

which makes it really, for me, keep playing it, keep playing it. It makes it really that much better. Right. And let's talk about this meter because we're trying to, one, two, T. It's in seven and then in six, right? Yeah, one, two. So it's a 13?

On two, three, don't, dun, don't. Don, don't, don. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love this here. We got all that E-flin. B to A. And you know, one thing is, you know, you pointed out this before, it's like, yeah, it's in 13 or it's in 7 plus 6, whatever you want to call it, you know.

I think of that, I'm not thinking too much of like the time signature. I'm more thinking about the clave of it. And it's like they do the figure in seven and they do the same figure in six or a similar figure in six. six and that's how my brain kind of play if i were to play it that's how i'd be thinking i absolutely and so like for one thing for those you that want to learn this is like yeah get get 13 seven and six out of your mind and think about like um don't think think don't go think um but i love what he does too like there's this very like it's almost like we're rising from the ashes of y2k we survived midnight we're in a new century with all these like suscores minors majors

And then when it resolves from like that you know, obviously this is a pedal point over this. It doesn't resolve to, it's, you got that little sus?

Little things here. I mean, I love Josh's writing. I don't think he gets enough credit for like all these songs. And I'm a little surprised at some of these, well,

you know what? They're hard. They're difficult. I think, but why they haven't become standards, you know? And didn't we talk to? Like,

what's the most standardy song that Josh has, like that people might call it a jam set? For Joshua Redmond? Probably something from the momentum elastic era. You know, the gruevier stuff. But all the stuff from the 90s, like for me, I know this is a different record.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the boot swing. Moot swings, yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah. I could see that. I think his comedy. And then his vibe.

I mean, people will just do a version of St. Thomas that's like his. Right. You know what I mean? That's not his tune, but it's like. Right, right. Cool. All right.

So playing. Why don't we jump to? Did we talk to Rubin about how, like, they didn't have a lot of rehearsal for this, right? Or did they? Did they tour with this before they recorded? I don't think they tour with it much before this. I remember Greg saying that, like, he wasn't totally comfortable with, because I'm always telling him. I'm like, man, I love that record.

He's like, oh, I hate that record. I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, man, I was like, I could play that music so much better after we played it for a while. Yeah, yeah. You know, but that's an interesting thing because even if you check out the way that he comes in, I think is masterful. So there's a lot of great details on this record. And so I don't know where that's going to come up in this. But I always think about that for things that we want to listen to over and over again.

I mean, Ruben's just killing. That's very difficult to play in tune. Remember we had a whole listening session with this band once. Do you remember that? Oh, did we? We brought this band on it. But in the pandemic, like a Zoom session with him. I'm sorry.

So I missed it. I was going to say where Greg comes in, the way that he comes in. Because obviously the time is there, but it's like he's dancing, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's listen to this whole track and listen to this. solos, too. Is that no vibrato, would you say? Sal's, he's playing songs. N-V-V-V-V-V-V-V-N-V. Nevada. That's the way they play out there, right? A little snare, Greg, didn't. And listen to how Aaron Goldberg's putting chords in, but

they're way underneath. Just letting that baseline shine. Because the bassline's outlining the harmony with the melody, those two things. I mean, the bass line. I mean, the line is the melody. It's like Josh is playing the counter melody kind of in terms of activity. Oh. And again, the meter here is... And Greg goes that other symbol, masterful. Top of the form. Ugh, that chord there. Yeah. And it, ah. Great mix. Shout out James Farber, engineer on this record. And Ruben's really, and the rhythm's like he's driving this right now. Greg is more like dancing around, which is a cool kind of juxtaposition.

Dancing. I think Aaron underrated. Aaron is underrated in his generation. No, I'm saying just, oh, the rhythm section being bass and drums. Yeah, for sure. But I'm saying the piano playing through all this record is, and this, his whole career, but yeah. Yeah, Ruben's really like holding it down nicely. I love what Aaron does there.

Jump's back in. And then. There's just like nothing better or more undeniable than Hutch. Right. He is a force. Yeah, absolutely. But he hasn't really gone in there yet. But that's his thing, though.

I don't. Him and Blade do this thing where you... You don't even know they're doing it. I know. They're sneaking it up on you. I mean, it's really coming out of like that Elbin Jones, like, macro approach to the whole thing, you know. Like how you can control... The trajectory of the whole tune.

The handoff here. Oh, it's fantastic. I remember seeing, when I saw this band live, it was my first time seeing Aaron Goldberg live. Yep. And remember watching him solo and thinking like, oh, I think I can do that. Right.

And then, because it's deceptively simple what he's doing. Right. So thematic and so, it's so, like, composed almost, even though, of course, it's improvised, but it feels so organic. He making it seem easy. He makes it seem easy. And it's not.

Right. Turns out it's not easy. And the way he construct, like all that's like kind of tenor region where he started kind of alto-y tenor region, no comping, and then when he brought in the first comping, and then now, so great.

You know, very Kenny Kirkland-inspired Herbie, of course, but really, it sounds like Aaron. Sorry, let me go. Oh. And I think, This is part of the composition, like coming in there, the bridge kind of section. And back to the baseline. It's a great, too.

A little alteration on the melody. That's so great. Details. Josh is great details within the composition. I love that they left all this extended part in. That's some good playing, man. So I have, for playing, I have a nine. I got a nine for the playing.

What do you got? Let me just play this. I'm actually not fading. This is the fate on the record, which I forgot. Check this out. This is the transition as we're playing. I just wanted you to hear that because that's going to come up in some of our things. I think like sequencing and the transition and that I totally forgot about that fade on there.

I've got nine for playing. Yeah. You know, and I mean, I could go 10. I could, you know, but if everything's a 10, nothing is a 10. I don't know. I mean, it's a pretty high level. But I have to go nine because I don't know that there's anybody except Josh maybe that I would say this is their greatest playing I've ever heard them do because I've heard them live so much.

Like I've heard Aaron like, I mean, he's killing on this record, but I've heard him go next level a little bit from this. Part of it's the constraints of how the records were made at this time. I remember this. I mean, I wouldn't say they're highly produced, but more produced than just a gig or like them playing this music. Which I think is part of the charm of it and the sign. I mean, it's part of the vibe of it. You know what I mean? Like there was edits on this for sure.

And like what Greg is playing, Greg Hutchinson at the end there and what Josh is playing is some of the greatest playing between them I've heard. But they're not cutting loose 100%. You know what I mean? And I think that that gives, which is great, because you can't cut loose all this time. There's something about the energy of that that is very helpful for this album.

Yes, yeah. And there's a little bit, like, I can feel Greg, like I know, as surprising as the sound, he was not 100% comfortable with that group, which is crazy. When a master like that is like a little bit off, you know? Yeah, but that adds to the excitement.

So, but it was great as he developed with the music, too. So for me, it's, yeah, in the playing's a night. Let's check out the next track, Belonging. Lopsided Lullaby. 98. I think so. Yeah. 1, 2, 9.

3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3. And it's an interesting clave. Right? You can hear Ruben's kind of outlining it. Interesting clovey. So it's like, the three is in the middle. So there's like the dotted eighths in the middle. Right.

This is some of Rubin's best recorded stuff around this period. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, do. Uh, uh, uh, two. Uh, uh, uh, um, that's the clave. All these little jabby phrases, Aaron plays, man. Aaron's so great at holding back on conflict with the left hand. He hasn't played anything in the left hand. Yeah, right? Woo!

Come on now. Ah, there he is. That symbol sound is one of the best ever recorded of grade. Hey. A little two-handedness happening here.

And Aaron's getting over to bar lines really nicely already. Benny Green in a fun house mirror. Yeah, shout out the room. Roger's holding it down. He jumped up in that phrase. Ha! Yeah.

Man, a lot of people started to try to play like this after this record. I just remember that younger players Yeah, James Farber, man Dude, he killed it He mastered He defined this period Like this version of Joshua Redmond

The most, I think I think this is my favorite I agree It's like such an integrated approach to all That he brings to the table Let's look at that That was strong

That was a strong ending right there Go ahead Wow And that's really part of the composition I would say yeah So we got vibe and compositions coming up next. I've got nine for vibe.

I do two. I got nine for vibe. I've got eight for compositions. Ooh. I got nine. And I almost have ten. It's close. It's an eight and a half for me.

I'm going to go eight point five for composition. I'm going to tell you my think, my thought present, then I want to hear yours on compositions. So I'm taking into a account a lot, things like how he ended that, like that's part of the composition process. Yeah, it is.

And then the way these tunes are like when you have the trading, when you have the vamp, when you have just going to the souls. Like the construction of it was very intentional. And I think works brilliantly. And a lot of that stuff could be chalked up to like, oh, that was in the moment. And probably not. Actually, I know not on this record. Like that was decided upon.

When you do it live, of course, you get the energy of the room and all these different things. So it's a different thing. But I think the template that he laid out, and I'm sure there was, you know, a lot of contributions from Aaron and from Rubin and Greg, you know, like all great band leaders Josh is very great about pulling those different elements in so it's very much a group effort but I just think that the way these compositions come together like well

as compositions if you take them up and just make a corny lead sheet and play them would you give it a nine or ten maybe not but like because they're placed and they take advantage of the improvisation and the possibilities of the players so well I have to include that as part of composition and having played with

like I can tell you he's overlooked as a composer I think too much because his melodies are very simple. Obviously, he went crazy with the time signatures and the baselines and this. But the way he can juxtapose those together, I don't think it's been done any better. And there's also, we have a little bit of hindsight

blinders with this because so many modern jazz musicians write music that sounds a lot like this. And there wasn't as much before this. Not that he invented this style of composition and these little things, but he put it together in a way that has kind of been ripped off by a lot of people.

I mean, in a way that it's natural. Yeah. So I do think it's like, if you could experience this the way we did in 2000, where it's like, oh, this is kind of different, actually. This is a little bit, because this wasn't happening as much in the 90s, this kind of vibe. Right. On this kind of level, particularly, like, not for Warner Brothers. You know what I'm saying?

Well, but I also feel like mood swing for sure and maybe some of the records after that that Josh did. But like, if you look at sort of mood swing and then leading to this. I think this is kind of the end result of some things that he was working on with that compositionally. And like what we were just saying like in terms of playing, this may be Josh's, I wouldn't say strongest playing. I think right now he's, but like you kind of said this is my, like this might be my favorite version recording.

Yeah. And I like a lot of different things that he's done. But it's such a like it highlights so many things that he does well together in an integrated way. Like going up and doing all the high stuff. Like it's, I don't know, just the way he does this because it's so free and it's so well tailored to the way that he likes to trade and play and sounds great on and going through all the different registers where at different times he would highlight being able to jump from the

you know, like do, do, do, do, do, which is great. And that's one of the most imitated and admired thing by saxophone players for sure. And crowds. I mean, they love that. And it's a really cool thing. But like his ability to run through the registers that, I mean, you know, Sonny Rollins, that's the only other, that's the only other saxophonist that comes to mind. I mean, train for sure, of course.

Not in the way that John said. Vannemo, we see some money. I just put you with Sunny Robes and John Cole. That's right. Above Jackal, but I'm just saying that he just has this great ability. And on this kind of playing, I think he's showcased in a way that I haven't heard on another record. Can I show you one of the influences, influenced a very young Adam Manus. Just about a year after I heard this album, I started writing a lot of things that sounded like this.

This is an arrangement I did. of Paul Simon's Graceland. I originally did it for like this is the third track on Beyond, right? No. It could be. I originally did it for a saxophone quartet, but it made it to wait onto an Aaron Bodie record on Max Jazz. Oh, that's a great one. Classic.

Listen. Listen what I do. Straight off Beyond. Yeah. But you got your own vibe on it too, which is nice. Aaron sounds so good. Who's on bass? On this, uh, this Sid Broadway.

See, I'm going to Graceland. Chill it out a little bit. But, yeah, that's sort of like piano, bass, left-hand thing. Yeah. We're doing a lot of that kind of thing. Fantastic. No, and that's like, you know, shout out to even at a young age for you doing that and everybody else that, like, take something that you like and run with it.

You know, take that football and run with it. Nothing wrong with that. Absolutely. Okay, so we move on a little bit and just talk. So we got compositions. Yeah. Sound. I think we've heard enough now to know

I have 10 for a sound Interesting Yeah I think I love the sound more than you But I put it nine I don't know Obviously I don't You can't get any better

No I think this is for this I'm always with sound too I'm always considering the era I think this is the best Sounding Jazz record Of the 21st century Up until maybe even Several years after this

I think this is a great sounding album I think the drums and the piano And the saxophone and the bass All sound exquisite. I think the mix is great. I like it all. I think that the drums are a 10, the saxophone of 10, the bass, this is some of the best bass recording. You're super picky about the piano. I'm picky about the piano. I'll put the piano at a nine. So I guess, but so that pulls it down for me just slightly. I'm a huge Farber fan. I worked with him. I think he's a genius.

He is. I mean, he's just, the sound is incredible. The only reason I would say nine too is that, first, can we say that nine is very good? I feel like we, Peter's got to. It's not a B plus. Nine is not good. It's great. Nine's great. Nine is great. That's what I'm saying.

So, but I, but I do compare this, because I think this is one of the greatest jazz records ever made. So with the sound, I would compare it to a kind of blue. I would compare it to, Philonius himself.

It's, you know, so I mean, that's what I'm saying. Is it, is it the great? Is it, if everything is the greatest sound ever,

then nothing is. But I wouldn't, I'm not arguing with you at all in the 10. That's all I'm trying to say. Let's listen to do another track. Let's listen to, I don't know, what do you think? Maybe, what's the third? What's the one that sounds like summertime?

I love that one. Twilight and beyond, probably. No, that one's, so that's a tune we recorded, I believe, on the Bangor. Maybe it didn't show up on that. We had played that before. That's a great tune to great composition. I think it's this one. Stoic revolutions.

Oh, yeah, Stoic Revolution. Tell me if you hear a little summertime in this. Maybe this is a known story that. Summertime and the live. And the living is easy. Living is easy. Sorry, I don't know. The living is easy.

Well, especially when you sing it. D-D-D-Libit-Doo-Doo-Doo-Doh. Dflap minor, buddy. Sorry, I'm reading it. Summertime, cotton is high. Sorry. Listen to those drums, man. Oh, it's great.

All right, yeah, yeah, boring. Great playing, great interaction. incredible sound. What is it about, can you, you've worked with him your whole life practically.

What is it about Hutch? What sets him apart from like your other, I mean, there's so many great drummers, but like, yeah, there's some extra thing

he has, is he just a jerk personally? Like, you see, I know, I've spent plenty of time with him. I know he's not, but like, what is it that makes him,

him? Is that, That's a million dollar question? Who knows? So I think, I mean, it's always a combination of things, but I would try to find what is the unique thing that you could best define. It's probably just his attention to detail,

which is the most boring part of the whole thing. I mean, he's got like this huge personality. He's got a lot of charisma. And is that natural? Is that developed? I mean, I knew his mother. I knew his father a little bit. Like, he's from a really cool family.

He seems to have a ton of charisma and confidence. And confidence, right. So that's, you know, you're more with it, you develop it, whatever. And then he's able to translate that into the music. He had a really great training and just like musical IQ. You know, you can tell from a young age and then when you learn about his background. But I think it's the attention to detail. Like he's so dedicated to like understanding everything that's going on and listening and like being in the moment, but being prepared.

So like it's weird because when you hear him play, you're just like, oh my God, he's his talent is off the chart. So that can kind of obscure some of the other parts. And it is. I mean, he's super talented. He knows, I mean, there's stuff that drummers are just like, I've seen incredible drummers, like world class drummers jaws drop when they see him do technical things that I don't even understand and don't appreciate as much. But, you know, in terms of doing, you know, certain single press, like he's got the chops,

obviously, and is known as a master technician. But I think that in terms of like the music, how he plays with others, how he brings out the best, how fun it is to play with him, there's a. there's just this great like combination of um like i've got you i'm supporting you yeah and come on now let's let's let's go to the next level has that challenging balance of it's a challenge it's a loving challenge it's a loving challenge like he there's a lot of love and support but also you know you got to come with it exactly there's it's it's like he rises he makes all the both rise up with him, you know.

Ruben too. Ruben is also, I think, one of the, the, he's, it's not like he's got this huge, big personality. He's just got this, like, presence, this warm presence about him. Yeah. Personally, and professionally that I've seen him in a few different situations working, doing

courses with us, obviously. Yeah. By the way, both Gregory Hutchinson and Rubin Rogers have open studio courses. That's right. In case you didn't know. That's right. Joshua Redmond and Aaron. I will be texting them shortly after this. Come on. Josh and Aaron. Get on Get on the bandwagon. Yeah.

No, but I think Ruben has a, it's different than Hutch. He's certainly confident, but it's like this real warmth that he's got personally and what I've seen on the bandstand. Yeah. But the combination of those two as well, I think is pretty incredible. It's amazing. And I think a lot of people would be like, they compliment each other really well. Like when Greg's ready to go off, like Rubin just instinctually like, you know, goes to what's needed and vice versa. There's all that's there.

But I mean, it gives them a little bit short shift if we say, oh, they're only great when they're together. Because you can look at so many great examples with other basses and other drum, like where they pair up with others. So they're definitely like both bringing something. But I think the thing that they have in common that's very exciting to play with them as a rhythm section is that they both care about the music so much. Like when you're in the studio with them, they're like producers, both of them.

Like they bring ideas and they'll be like, I don't know about it. Like, that's why I'm sure on this record they had a lot of input, even though Josh, Josh probably Joshua Rememann comes more prepared as a leader to a session than I think anyone I've ever worked for, which some people take it as like calculating. And I'm like, damn right. So he's, he went to Harvard. So he's one of those kind of kids. Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, prepared in all the right ways, you know. But he's also open to like the details. So you get players like, like Aaron is like this very much as well. Aaron Goldberg in terms of like how he comps. I don't know how much he's like actively adding, but he probably is actively. adding ideas as well. But it's just to say that like when you get musicians together, they care and then you've got a bandlier that comes in with this really interesting music. It's kind of like set up to have some fireworks like this happening.

That's why it's always funny to be like, well, Greg, it's like I can give you nine other records where he sounds just this good. So why would I say that this is like his greatest? I don't know. I mean, I've heard him live just go crazy and stuff. But I think the sound being so great, the tunes being very interesting and really in his wheelhouse in terms of what he can really bring his charisma to, everybody of the band. And that's a part of, like, composing, I think. And that's why, like,

for Josh, I think that he brings, like, maybe these tunes are less jam sessiony, which is fine, and more, like, bespoke for this particular, whoa, group of musicians here. And that's all good. I mean, that's the Duke Ellington playbook, right? Yeah. It's like, yeah, you can take his arrangement, but he's writing them for these individuals.

So, I love this, too. Can you talk a little bit about, so we've mentioned it a couple times this is on Warner Brothers, which seems in it like an absurd statement. Yeah. That a quartet album, instrumental jazz quartet album. All original compositions in five and a half meters would be on Warner Brothers records. Yeah. It was recorded at Avatar in New York City, which is power station, an incredible space. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, everything kind of cost a lot and came together and it was worthwhile. But you made, you were making records in the 90s. This was recorded in the late 90s? Like,

yeah. What, like, what's the biggest difference? Obviously, that someone else is paying for all the records. Yeah. And, and now everybody's paying for their own records, essentially. Even if you are on a label, you're making, you're essentially making the record and then giving it to the label. Well, I think it was, like, in a lot of ways, it's, everything's easier now or should be easier. And there's more possibilities. But I think what, for this kind of a record, it was really kind of an important time and everything lined up. Like, so if you want to like and what's different about it is you were you had three days in the studio four

days in the studio you know which you could do now because you could have your own home studio you can sit and make everything and have unlimited time but like you need some constraints but but what the one day sessions which we did at this time too which are great but you can't make a record like this in one day you just can't and i wonder how many days they worked on this doesn't say here i'm sure it was three or four before i mean i know when we did freedom of the groove that was yeah it was just it was more than one you know if you're doing a jazz record it's just you know it's either one day or it's forever. Anything more than a day is like, what?

Yeah. One of those Aaron Bodie records we did at Avatar, we did three days. Two days. Two days. Two or three days. Yeah. I mean, two days is more than two X, well, one day is. It's like to be able to like decompress and then come back. And like edits and stuff were harder, but you could test them out.

And so like having that budget and that time and mainly just having the space with a great instrument. I mean, Steinway, they used to be able to pick out your piano. They'd bring it in. and then a great engineer and they're tuning the piano and you're eating you know

relatively good carryout food it wasn't very good but I mean like you had a you could concentrate and nobody had phones so I mean you might have a I don't think we had cell phones

in 2000 maybe not baby cell phones baby cell phones yeah but I mean it was just like you have a pager focus I did have a pager before this time Skypager

multiple pagers I had multiple pages I was a drug dealer so I needed it no no no explain the kids what a pager would do like why would you need

is that Jermaine to this record it doesn't matter it's Jermaine to In 1999. I do a plane to catch it. Just a reminder. Sorry, why you look so hard, right? No, no.

We're cool. I just don't know. Oh, no. Pager. It's a little thing that Google it. Google it, kids. AI it. People had paid you and you'd have to call them back.

Right, which would happen, which would happen, even when you're in studio. So, okay, what do you have, Adam, for our next? We need to move this along, my friend. We don't need to rush through it. But for sequence, I'm interested to see what you're here. I have an eight for sequence. Okay, I have an eight. Yeah.

Give me your rationale. Well, I think, so with sequence. And this was my thing with compositions too, which you said you wanted to hear my opinion and then you never got back to me. Sorry, telling you weren't actually. I do want to hear it, just not on this episode. Not today.

Anyway, I had a couple pagers. I had one that was like, no. Tell me about why you said eight for compositions. Okay, so I said eight and a half for compositions. And this kind of has to do with sequence as well. My only gripe with this album as a whole is that there's a little too it's a little too much of the same color

through the whole way. Okay. With the compositions and I think with the sequence that could have helped with this a little bit. I love the sequence, but eight is like very good for me, not great. Yeah.

And then what do you have for cover art, dude? Do you have anything? Oh, I thought you wanted to hear what I had to say about sequence. I don't. Now, what do you have? I wonder though if you're saying like vibe with everything being similar.

Does that push the vibe? vibe up, though. The vibe is nine. The vibe is strong. Okay. And it does kind of push the vibe up.

But I do need some more variety than what we got. Yeah, I got you. I'm wondering if the fact that this record is long a. F. Maybe it pulls it back.

It's longer than this episode. 77 minutes, isn't it? Longer than this episode. Yeah. Long a half. We're getting there. We're getting there. It's 73 minutes.

But I mean, so to me, that pulls back a little on the sequence. They could have, they could have taken some stuff out, probably. Yeah. There's nothing like,

there's nothing like, why is that there? I actually think if I'm going to be truthful to sequence, like just to the order of things, I would actually give it a nine or even a 10 in a way because I think there's some good transitions. There's some great, but because I don't like fade outs on this kind of record. And I forgot. So I pulled down, I was going to go nine. I pulled down to an eight because I don't like that.

And I know that's sort of a thing of the time. And I remember like on records sort of going back and forth, like how we're going to end it. Oh, we're going to fade it out. And I think that was not a great. That was one of the few things of that time, it was not great. I remember when fadeouts became passe. Yeah. I don't get it.

Right. I like a long fadeout. Oh, you like a long fadeout? I love a long time. Not for this kind of record to me. And it's a slight thing. I mean, it worked. How they did it,

Farber did it. Like, in Jaws, I was great. What is it about faintouts you don't like? I don't like, because I want it, like, this kind of a record is so intimate, like,

and the way that the interaction and the playing, and it's so like you're there with it. And the music just never naturally fades out like that. Like, the way that the second track, ended where it's like that's a natural fade-out

like the way the music would actually occur in nature yeah like it would never be like it's almost like the band's playing on a a truck and then they just leave and like you can't really hear them that's the only time in nature the fade out would happen like that as a fan of like 70s rock and R&B I love a

I love a fade out yeah but that's a and I love it on jazz records too there's a lot of good records in the 60s there's some fadeouts no beg beg you know beg to differ cover art. Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree.

Agree to let you be wrong. That's dynamics. Did you hear the touch there? Listen to it fading out. I like a natural fade out. I like to see what Hutch would fade. How you would just naturally fade out of it. Cover art, I have a 10.

That's a 10 out of a 10. I think if you look at this cover, the image is striking. Let's look at it. It's one singular color, this great color of green. It's a striking image of Joshua Redmond in a dark suit holding a saxophone.

It's very late 90s-ish. Those are just sort of like the color palette of like a J-Lo record, I believe, too. The color palette of my hat? A little bit like your hat. I think this for, what's that? Matrix vibes, which was also at the time. I think it really works for capturing, like, you can be like, oh, early 90s, early 2000s. It looks great.

It's striking. Memorable. Love it 10 out of 10. I went eight. And I'm looking at it now again. I almost would go seven. Okay. First of all, Josh, tiny head, giant feet.

That's not the way he occurs in nature. Look at his little head. I mean, it's just weird. I don't know, right? And I get it. Am I lying? He looked at me. Caleb, right?

No, tiny head. It's a great. Tiny head. I mean, and I know that's part of the vibe. I do like the font, the different fonts and the different, you know. Body shame Joshua Redmond. No, I'm not, no, I'm saying he's not like that. But you're trying to kind of look at an angle.

It's fine. It's just a big suit. It's the 90s, man. And it's a big suit, yeah. Yeah, it's a camera thing. the lens of the camera. It's fine. I like that timeless.

I like timeless tales. I think that's a better. He has a string of really great covers. I would put this. But this is a vibe for sure. I do like that about it. That's why it has an eight. And also it matches the music.

This sort of like empty greenish matrixy room. Yeah. I think it matches. Title. I have an eight. I also have an eight. I think it's very good.

Yeah. I just changed how simple it is. What's that? I just before I said this, I changed it to from nine days. I did the exact same thing. Really? Well, because I like that it's so simple and it's one word,

but it's kind of boring. That's right. It's very good, but it's not great. But see, I think Josh's titles are really interesting, the way he titles tunes, and it's very unique, and the way he titles records. But it can be boring sometimes. But I think, I mean, this matches their record so good.

That's why I'm like, why am I even going down to eight? I don't know. But it's really good, you know, and it's interesting. And I couldn't imagine anything else, which makes a great title. Lower. I've got a seven. I could even go lower. I mean, for me, the person,

personal lore is strong. Like I said, really inspired me as a young musician. Does it get, does lore get any more important? You literally played something that was... Yeah, I know, but it's not... As far as, like, some of the stories we've heard on some of the albums we've listened to, the lore of this isn't as... There was no drugs at the session. That's what you're saying. You know, it's like...

I mean, the story is like, here's a young musician who's kind of at the, you know, starting the peak of his powers at this time. Like, he's had in the string of hits. And so there's not a lot of struggle going on with the lore. the band sounds good. There's just from outside of my own personal connection with the album, which is strong. I don't know if there's any other outside lore. Yeah, I went eight kind of partly because of that.

But also, I did think that it pushed up a little bit the lore, like this is the first record of new band. It's 2000. You know, it's a real entry point. Like this was kind of his third, I guess, great band or not great band, whatever. Like Josh has periods based upon what bands he has. And he's very bespoke about setting those. We are going to get people who watch this who are going to want us to listen to Spirit of the

moment. Okay. The album you're on. If we must. So we could do that. But that's going to be a while. Can you rate yourself? We haven't. Yes.

Could you honestly? The snobometer is going to go crazy on that one for myself. Yeah, but that's going to be a while because we haven't repeated Miles Davis or a lot of people. We haven't done John Coltrane yet. Right. Let's do two Josh Rebans before we even hit John Coltrane. That'll go over well. Probably not great.

Snobometer. So in case you don't know, the snobel meter is a combination five points each would someone who's not into jazz like it and would someone who's a jazz snobb like it and then you add those scores up i have this as a six on the snobb meter i think this one gets hurt by a couple of things i don't think my aunt linda likes it it's the odd meters are too much for her right she does not going to like that i think she gives it like a maybe a one or a two i actually might even go five here i'm going to go five on the snobomber meter i actually think she gives it a two i think

iverson who's a jazz snob gives it like maybe a three because it's on warner brother it's like it's not like it's Joshua redman who's kind of like the golden child of the jazz moment right now or at this time and uh i did think

shout out golden child i think snob aren't don't love it either because it's not snobby enough so i'm going to give it a five yeah so that's similar to me i have a five but i have one plus four so i've got one for aunt linda's i'm thinking even maybe zero. Maybe.

Like, this is, this is a lot. But other than it sounds really good. That's right. That's right. And Joshua Redmond's handsome and like, yeah, so that helps, you know.

Is he? He's got a tiny head. Apparently. I'm saying, it's a good looking. It's a package is good. Package is good. But I think once you put it on,

they would be, so I gave it one. Like, like, this would do really well in a Barnes and Noble. Like if people, like if you worked at a Barnes & Noble. Borders. Yeah.

If you worked at the borders, people would be constantly coming up to you with like their Subaru key chains and like, What is playing right now? I own a Subaru, so I can say that. You know what I'm saying? You own two Subaru's, don't you? I do.

I own two Subaru's. Not ashamed. Oh, that's right. Yeah, absolutely. This is a... But I, so one for Aunt Linda, and then I said four for the snobs because it's not going to be a five

because it's packaged together. But it's a really, like, it's... It goes up because it's not his most popular, well-known record either. So it's like, oh, do you know this one? If you might think you like Josh Redmond, but what about beyond? I see, I think, well, we came to the same conclusion.

Ooh. Is it better than Kind of Blue? Kind of Blue is a 9, right? Why is our categories 9 and 10, the most confusing, the most controversial, and the ones people hate the most? Do you want the honest answer? Yeah. Because we were running out of ideas.

And we needed 10 categories. Okay. I'm going to put this at a 7 for Is it Better Than 9. But tell me again about how this works. So, Kind of Blue is a 9. And actually, we did Kind of Blue last week, and it came out to a about a 91 or two for both of us, which checks out. So a record on our scale can be better than Kind of Blue, which I think is honest.

And it can be worse than Kind of Blue. So for me, this, if it's compared to Kind of Blue, if Kind of Blue is a 9, this is at a 7. Okay. I'll go 8 because I think this is really good. I'd almost go 9 on this. But I feel like I don't want to, this is a flawed system, by the way. And I know I was part of it. So,

1 through 8 is not flawed. Maybe we should make it like an 80 point scale. No, no, no, no. People, here's what's so great, though. People love the snobometer. They love is it better or worse than KOB. Yeah.

Okay. I'm going eight because I think this is a fantastic record. And I think KOB is a legendary record. So it's right, it's right up under there. Should we go total it up? Let's total it up. Okay.

Yeah. I'll go first. So my score is an 80. 84.5, and my favorite track is balance. Nice. Okay, my total score is ashamedly, surprisingly. I'm not sure. 81.

Yeah. Did I do that correctly? I guess so. My favorite track belonging, a lopsided lullaby. I thought I had lower scores than you in general. How's your math there? But I didn't have some tens when you didn't have tens. And I can't change, though.

Yeah. But it just shows this is in exact science, because I love Well, but again, so I love this record. No, I think we're in the range. Can I just say, we're nailing it with the system because look at what we said. I don't like this is a B minus. No, no, no, it's not a B minus. Peter, we said, remember we're talking about eights this whole time. And we were like, this is very good.

And I think this album, in my heart, I think if this is a very good album. Like, not my favorite of all the time, but a very good album that I've listened to probably once every couple of years since it came out, you know? I mean, I put this as one of my 20 favorite records, probably. And that should probably be higher, bud. I know, that's what I'm saying. Well, I'm just fine. You know what? Your little nine and ten are not good, so.

Oh, you're blaming to not an knee? Come on. I can't remember the exact. Oh, good, man. You might be right about that. We do have a lot of categories that have nothing to do with the music. The stomometer is probably the most egregious. But it has nothing to do with our opinion.

No, it has nothing to do with what we think of it. Two really, like, individualistic people that don't reflect our views, our opinion of their opinion of the record. But can I say? Perceived opinion. Is that not a hell? of a lot of fun. It's a hell of a lot of fun. It's a hell of a lot of fun.

Thank you, Joshua, Redmond, Gregory Hutchins, Ruben Rogers, Eric Golder, killing it. Thank you, boys.

Oh, and Mark Turner. Mark Turner's on this record at some. We didn't even get into that. Oh, yeah, Mark Turner's on track four. Yeah,

which is such a cool thing. Cool. Cool. Until next time, you'll hear it.