You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Genre Of Stevie

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

It's that iconic sound that everyone knows yet it spans over every genre we can throw at it. In this episode, Peter and Adam dig into the magic of Stevie Wonder's sound. What makes it all sound like Stevie? Check out Peter's video on all that Stevie Wonder hipness.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter, hey, what genre would you say this song is? Neo Soul Bebop. Oh, obviously, Neo Soul, Bebop. How about this? Big band. Big band music. Got it, got it. What about this song?

Sounds like mid-century pop. Does it? I would say it's all the genre of Stevie. I like it. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Music advice coming at you.

New theme song. I might be a new theme song. I love this song. I know you don't. This is not your favorite. Is this your favorite Stevie tune? It's not my favorite Stevie tune, but I do love this song. You know what it was?

It's emotional for me. I remember being a little toddler driving around and my mom's VW Rabbit on rainy nights. And this song was on the radio on the pop radio stations and my mom singing along. I will always love this song. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't hate this song, but I love everything Stevie Wonder. As you know, as our dear listeners, though.

Of course. But this is probably my least. least favorite Stevie Wonder song. Of all the Stevie songs, that's your least favorite. It is. Yeah. Yeah. So today we're obviously talking about Stevie Wonder. And I don't know if we talk about him too much or not enough, Peter.

It feels like not enough, honestly. I don't think you ever can talk about him enough. And actually, we don't talk about him that much on the pie. We really don't. There's an assumption, which is actually a beautiful thing. There's an assumption that we make. I think everybody makes that there's sort of an appreciation and understanding and that he's kind of the, you know, undisputed,

undisputed heavyweight champ of like songwriting and pop and music that's what it gets a little murk it's like yeah but of what genre it's like of everything you that's my favorite question we've been talking a lot about genre the last couple weeks which is a conversation i love to talk about yeah and i can you i told i could talk for hours oh can you just about the details of genres i love it i love drilling down on it so much uh no but the question i always like to ask people when we have these discussions is sometimes i'll ask what genre are the beetles right so a lot of people like, oh, rock. Swing era.

Are like, bumpan into prep but do, you know, is that rock music? Like, I mean, obviously like, like, doong, doong, like it can be rock music, whatever. But all of my favorite artists or a lot of my favorite artists

do not box themselves in while they're creating music, which is, I think something that we can talk about as useful as genre and labels can be as we're trying to show other people what music is and find good music. When we are artists and we're actually trying to make music, my biggest inspirations, and I know Peter yours are too, are people like Stevie Wonder, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, people that just won't be boxed in to a specific sound. And I think Steve-B-on-boxed me in, bro. If you ask someone, what genre is Stevie Wonder?

You might get 10 different answers. You can certainly get soul. You can get R&B. You can get funk. You can get gospel. You can get jazz. You can even get some tracks that sound almost classical. You can get pop certainly with like I just called to say I love you and some of the other pop.

I think pop in a way is, yeah, is the most logical. But it's also the least useful because that just means whatever's popular at that time. Yeah. And because Stevie's career has spanned so many different decades. And he's had hits since he's. since he was, you know, 11 years old. Totally, yeah. Or, you know, that you could say he's always been pop and or pop a jason.

He's been popular. Popular. But when you're talking about like trying to define the sound, like today, when I asked you what genre, Steve you wonder, your first answer was pop. Right. And I was like, oh, like Mariah Carey or Christine Aguilera pop. And like, obviously. Yes, but better.

But obviously not. Like it's, it's, it doesn't sound the same as those other arms. Well, that's what I'm saying maybe pop is the least useful out of, out of everything. It's just a big umbrella, I think, for, for whatever's popular at the moment. but it's just these kinds of artists, artists like Stevie and the Beatles, and like we mentioned, Herbie and Miles Davis, while you would certainly classify them, you know, in a record store or on Spotify as in the jazz category, Miles and Herbie. Their music has evolved over time and not always with the trends in jazz. Yeah. You know, and they're always playing different stuff. It's really just their own

genre. Yeah. And I thought we could talk about the usefulness of that for musicians or just kind of talk about genre as a box and sort of the hindrance it can have on our own personal development. This just caveat because we've got a lot of blowback from the Loive episode about me being frustrated talking about genre. Genre is certainly useful and labels can be useful for helping to teach and define and show people like and also scope is important. We talked about my Aunt Linda before. Like if I'm talking to my Aunt Linda, Kenny G is jazz. Shout out Aunt Linda by the way. Kenny G. is jazz. Not even smooth jazz because she doesn't really know the difference between the two. So when we're having a discussion,

if I'm talking about Kenny G.D.U., he might not even get the smooth jazz label. It might be like contemporary instrumental pop or something, right? Because we're able to define things in a little bit sharper terms. So scope certainly can be a part of the discussion. Aunt Linda and, you know, kind of the general popular. Wait, you say aunt and I say aunt. Aunt?

I don't know to be either one. Well, Linda is your aunt or aunt. So which is it? I always say aunt. Aunt Linda. that's what I'll do. Yeah. No, but I think like if you talk about, so Kenny G.

And Kenny Garrett. Yeah. Like, if you group them together, that could be jarring to anybody. If you're like, yeah, let's go hear one of the Kennies. Last name ends in G. Eh, doesn't make a difference. They're both jazz. Yeah.

Like, that's pretty different. Like, just in terms of like the overall sound. And we're not saying one is better than the other. One is better than the other. But, I mean, it's just even that kind of gradiation between, you know, artists within the supposedly same genre, I think is. is kind of important at times, you know, to define that. But it's all put on the fact after.

Yeah. After the music is already made. And it's really put on by people in marketing departments and things like that as an attempt to sell records, right? So that it's easily put into a box and categorize. And then also listeners know, oh, if this is in the jazz section, I like this. I like, you know, Amman Jamal. So and Kenny Garrett is right there.

So it's same section. Maybe it sounds something similar. I think from that perspective, from the outside perspective, from the side perspective, I think the culture, the shared values, community have more of an impact than that. Well, you know what? You just said something that he's just gay. I'm calling an audible here. I'm just thinking on my feet as these day. And I'm a little under the weather, full disclosure. My legal department called again. They just texted said, I got to say that. So this may not be totally valid. But like, if you like this, then you'll like that. That I think is valuable,

but maybe not in that sense of like you're in the jazz section. So you're going to like everything that's in here. But think about this. Stevie Wonder, maybe we don't know what. genre is because he's incorporating all these things and maybe became his own genre. He is his own genre. But what is interesting is like if you like Stevie Wonder, you might like Raulme Dahn, who you never heard of. Exactly. Is Raulme Dahn jazz?

Maybe a little more place than there is he R&B, but similar kind of thing. He's not imitating Stevie, but he's influenced like almost every singer, songwriter, even jazz. I mean, everybody from our generation that's, I think, kind of a thoughtful musician, consciously or unconsciously is influenced by Stevie Wonder and his music and his writing. And so, but I do think that kind of thing is interesting. Like, if you like Kenny G., then you'll like Kenny Garrett. Maybe not so much.

That's what I'm saying. Like, sometimes the labels that we put on the thing is not an accurate description of what might be the commonalities. So like you said, you know, if you like Stevie Wonder, you might like this. You might like Michael Jackson. You also might like Joni Mitchell. Like there's kind of two sides of Stevie that you can go to, right? You might also like Miles Davis.

Right. If you like Stevie Wonder. because there are genres, there are eras where they were, you know, overlapping in a similar aesthetic sound, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, like, it's just a really, it's a murky mess when you try to get into, like, finding the things you like. But if you go by sort of the shared values of the artist and of your own, like, what do I like about it? What do I love about Stevie Wonder? I love the harmonic complexity.

I love the incredible grooves. Yeah. I love the production. I love the synth stuff. I love the songwriting, most of all. I love the singing. like all of it comes together and can be, I think, broken down

better than its R&B, which some of it is, some of it's not, it's soul, some of it is, some of it's not. I mean, this whole catalog is so huge. Some of it's, I think, you could classify it as jazz, especially of that era. You know, some of it is folk music of that era.

Like, there's all this huge swath of influence that happens in an extremely progressive artist like Stevie Wonder. So that, I think that's a great way to put it. Progressive artists like Stevie Wonder, of course, which are sort of generational talents in a way, like they don't come along that often. But there are other ones. Like, do they become a genre unto themselves because they are so popular or because they cross over, like, because you can hear the influences of so many genres, but you can't necessarily say, like, it's mostly R&B, but a little bit of jazz and classical sprinkled in. So I don't, I don't think so.

like, so let's take a group like, let's take someone like Phil Collins, as popular as Stevie Wonder maybe, or almost, certainly in that 80s period. Yeah. Right. And, but he's a pop, he's a pop singer. Yeah. Like he made pop hits. You know, he made invisible touch.

Bangers. And all the bangers with Genesis. Yeah. You know, all that stuff. Pop or rock, though. But I mean, it's, he's definitely has his like, you know, or Prague rock. Prague rock influences from, no, early Genesis. He was the prog rock drummer of the early Genesis band that had Peter Gabriel,

the singer is Genesis, yeah, and he was just the drummer. Okay. And then when they moved over into the pop sphere with all the DX-7 stuff, you know, he's definitely the singer. But that's not, like, they're not, they're definitely like crossing over genres between those two eras, but in general, Phil Collins, we're going to call him more of a pop singer. I'm talking about, like, if you were to say what genre is Phil Collins, well, those are pop ballads he's singing. Those are, that's pop music he's making. Yeah. But if you were to say what genre is Jacob Collier, Peter, What genre is Jacob Collier? Nuvo harmonic, progressive.

You have to make up some words. Combination of words, right? And that's what I'm saying is like, it can be, you can play, you can play within a genre and be a sort of devotional musician to that genre. And say, like, I really want to sound like rockabilly or whatever. And like really like lean into the look and the feel and the sound of that music. Or you can be the kind, which is nothing wrong with that. Like there's a lot of great music.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. No, no, no, but there's not. But or you can, I think you can be more of like an introspective, reflective, almost meditative artist, like I would consider like Stevie, Jacob Collier is like a one of one. We'll put Miles in there as well. I think the Beatles are so unique in there.

Obviously started off as like with like rock and roll and that sort of like, you know, Brit, a lot of blues influence. But like if you listen to... But they're not a blues man. No, you listen to Abby Road. Like it's all over the map what they're trying to do. do. There's definitely classical influence. There's like English choral music influence.

And like what's like the concert band stuff? You know, concert band stuff. English brass band sounds. You know what I mean? Like it's an interesting mix of stuff. So what do you think of? Sea shanties. Sea. Seychelles on the sea shanties suffering silently. But but I love that I love artists that are just open to letting themselves go to these places that are outside of an expectation. I think that's when some of the greatest music ever made is, made. Yeah. So what do you think then about subgenres? Maybe that's where the magic is. Maybe that's what them gold and then their hills are. So like maybe that's a more useful thing. So if you think about like, do you like classical music? Well, are you talking about, you know, literally classical

music is a very short period. Right. But okay. So but within that, but that's sort of a subgenre. So if you look at like Baroque is a subgenre of classical. Yeah. You might really like Baroque music. I mean, Kelly was Kelly Martin, the wonderful beautiful Kelly Martin asked me the other day because we went to see the symphony. She's like, is this, it was Beethoven Piano Choir. She's like, is this classical or romantic period?

And I was like, well, it's classical, but Beethoven's kind of... Big Ten classical. Yeah, Big Ten classical, but it's also sort of the end of the classical and the beginning of the romantic period. I believe Beethoven is, or is he just classical? No, I think you're correct on that. But they even had those, not arbitrary, but it's also just like, it wasn't like January

1st of 18, whatever. They switched over. But this is where I'm saying where it can be useful is thinking about it in scope, right? Because you do have, say, like, Big Tent Pop. Yeah. And I think you could put Stevie Wonder in Big Tent Pop because he's one of the best-selling artists of all time, one of the most popular artists of all time. And then you can get down in the sub-genres.

Well, you have songs that sound, you know, especially from the Motown era, like soul music, for sure. It is soul music. Yeah. R&B songs. He's got funk songs like Supercision, many, many others. And he's got pop ballads from the 80s. like I just called to say, I love you.

He's got reggae tunes. Like he's, he really has like, looking on reggae woman. Yeah, he's got all of these amazing influences, all these spices in his music. And it's the same thing. Like you can say Miles Davis is big tent jazz, right? No question about it.

Shared value system. Lineage comes from Charlie Parker and before. But gets into smooth jazz. But gets into, by the end of his career, what we would now, if you heard it, was like, oh, that's smooth jazz. Yeah, 100%. So, but maybe Stevie Wonder is a subgenre, actually.

Like maybe as opposed to like, I mean, it's got all these different influences, but maybe as much as like, you know, acid jazz was for a while or Prague rock, you know, which I don't even really know. I mean, I know that's the thing. I didn't know Genesis was Prague rock. But like that's a better definition or could give more clarity. Because look, what we're talking about is not for musical creativity. It's not like, I want to write a Prague rock record. I want to do it. No. We and I think that that was something that was misunderstood by what both of us said, but you got singled out for is like, you know, what you're saying genre doesn't matter. I think what you were saying. I think what you were saying. was it doesn't matter for the creative product. How are you going to become a Stevie Wonder? Not that anyone is, but let's aspire to greatness. Yeah, and in fact, like I was talking a little bit in some of the comments I answered about teaching. And, you know, I do a lot of teaching around here. And I have no problems with people putting themselves into boxes.

Everybody does it. So, like, I don't have to teach that. I don't have to teach you how to be attracted to conventions. Everybody wants to learn conventions. They think that's the key. Yeah. But I almost get nobody, no student that is too much themselves. where it's like, whoa, hold on, pull back a little bit.

You're too original. You're too much yourself. It's usually people get stuck thinking, I should sound like this. I need to sound like this. I have to learn how to do things like this, as opposed to freeing themselves and just being themselves and letting their own creativity take them places that are a little bit unexpected.

I have no problems with students that are too much themselves. I have more problems with people that are stuck in conventions that they don't know how to get out of. Right. Yeah, if I have any faults, it's that I'm too original of an artist. I'm too true to myself. No, I mean, like, you know who, like, people like, like, Jahari Stampley that we just listen to yesterday, like that is someone who is themselves. You know, they're showing up to the, to the Hancock competition, dressed as themselves, playing themselves.

Now, will he look back at his 23-year-old self when he's 30, when he's 40 and 45 and be like, oh, I didn't have my thing together yet? Of course. He probably will. At some point. But we can already hear that, you know, what hopefully will continue to be him as he develops, you know. That's the strong suit. It's not how fast he can play or. whether he knows every single monk tune.

Yeah. Or whether or not we can identify some of his clear influences which are there. For sure. You know, just as you could with Stevie at that age and certainly younger. No, and he is connected to the history

to the lineage of the music. And I think Stevie is as well. You can hear Duke Ellington and Stevie. Like you can hear these influences of Black American music all the way through Stevie and now he's a part of that influence, of course. Yeah. And like that's, I think,

what we were more talking about in genre. Not that you can't ever, use labels and they're not useful for certain things. Of course they are. When we're discussing these things, they're labels. But when you're making music, try every once in a while, just doing something out of your quote-unquote genre or your expectations. Yeah. And see where that takes you. What's the sub-genre this is? Hello. Hello. So that's Big Tent Jazz. Big Tent, like circus jazz. For sure. Big Tent that's under the jazz heading for sure. We're going to call that. What do we call that here? Is that progressive jazz? By the way, so just

So everybody knows. Can we go to camera four? Camera four, please? Thank you. We don't have any numbers on the camera. This is Peter Martin's new CD, Peter Martin and Gen. S., with Sarah Hanahan on alto saxophone,

Rupertons on the bass of Gregory Hutchson. Shabless plug. It's so good, man. You should be so proud. I'm very proud of this. We had concerts all week last week, and it was so much fun in here. These just floated into the studios,

these original samples, but you can pick up your copy if you'd like at petermartin music.com. Just knowing that out there. Dynamic modern jazz. Dynamic modern jazz. Dynamic. We do play with dynamics.

Dynamic. No, but I do think that these type of subgenres can, because I mean, I used to always, it would irk me, I would chafe, and perhaps even Brussels a little bit. Brussels. We coined a new subgenre genre. Dynamic modern jazz when people are like, oh, what kind of music do you play? Oh, you got a bad?

What kind of music you play? So I play jazz. Oh, well, like what kind? I'd be like, look, you idiot. It's just badass jazz. That's all you need to know. there's also nothing more pretentious than a musician where you're like what kind of music you play you're like well it actually can't be categorized that is also annoying right

didn't you say that in the episode though what episode you said genres you can't be genre genre sized I'm joking you got so serious lay it out of me genres don't matter I can't be don't box me in bro don't tase me bro you got to go back and Google that one yeah exactly that's what I'm saying we we get pretentious to avoid it it it can be pretentious to embrace it too much. You know, we just need to find a middle, like, how do you say something to get people to the music to hear it as quickly as possible? There's nothing new under the sun.

Charlie Parker said it best. Learn the changes and forget them. And to me, that could be even like blown out to a different scope. Learn the conventions, learn the genres of what it means to be a bebop musician, what the difference between bebop and smooth jazz is. You should be able to hear that. You should know who the heavy hitters are in every genre of music that you love for sure and then when you go to make music forget all of it and just be yourself and see what

comes out so some of the official agreed some of the official gatekeepers i think have done a little bit of disservice perhaps and i and i feel i feel a little bit bad but i got to be honest about my feelings on this they've done some wonderful things too so this is just a minor point but i'm just thinking like serious xm and look that i mean with spotify apple music with youtube and instagram ticot the different discovery methods we have maybe serious xm is not as big big of a player, but there wasn't in-between time when, like, say, for instance, specifically to jazz, that jazz radio, which were oftentimes NPR-affiliated stations or public stations, always around like the 89, 90-91 area on the FM.

My dial is stuck all the way to the left, buddy. And I still listen to, like, you know, when I'm traveling stuff, I just find there, I'm like classical jazz. That's where all the good shit is. That's where all the good shit is. So, I mean, you got jazz, you got classical and the liberal echo chamber, all wrapped up in one little number. It's usually, because you're usually going to then find like the R&B station at 107, 108.

Yeah. So you just got to avoid the middle. It's like when you go to the grocery, if you want to eat healthy, avoid the inside of the grocery stores. That's right. Just like on the radio down. No one under 40 knows what the hell we're talking about right now. Exactly. But Sirius XM, they have a wonderful jazz station, but it's called real jazz.

First of all, it's called Sirius. C is not even the same word, but it sounds like serious. So if you say serious real jazz, that's going to make people be like, oh, that sounds like a party happening over there, you know. 100%. And then the smooth. Lincoln Center approved. Juilliard approved. Exactly.

Oh, there's actually they broadcast from that, that, the same floor and the same building. There you go. Till next time. You'll hear it.