You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Most Important Job of a Rhythm Section

Episode Date: March 18, 2021

A rhythm section has many roles to play in an ensemble. Today, Peter and Adam nail down what the most important element for a good rhythm section is.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, Adam. Do you know what your job is? My job? Like me personally? If you had a job, what would it be? Being a part of the rhythm section? I hope.

No. That's incorrect. I'll tell you about it. Okay. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music advice coming at you.

Coming at you today. Sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open Studiojazz.com for all your jazz lesson needs. Peter, it's another podcast day. I'm so excited about today. This is actually a bit of a user request, the topic for today's podcast, which is the most important job of a rhythm section.

And I'm super excited to dig into this with you. We were having a conversation last week on our YouTube live. You'll hear it, which, by the way, you should check out if you're listening to this. Yes. Where we have a little conversation before and after. and someone said, yes, talk about that. So we're going to talk about it. Yes.

Now, I'm just looking at the title that you came up with, the most important job of a rhythm section. Is there specific clarity that we should be focusing in on that you didn't say the most important jobs of rhythm section? Are we going singular? Are we going dogmatic? We're going the most, really, the singular most important job. Now, this is definitely going to be up for debate.

Full disclosure. Full disclosure. It's even up for debate. What a rhythm section. Exactly. I threw that wrinkle at the last minute here, but... But I think for the purposes of this episode, we will define a rhythm section as anybody who's accompanying a soloist.

So if someone's singing a song and you're playing piano, you're the rhythm section. Hold on a second. I'm calling Christian McBride to... Oh, boy. I know I shouldn't have used his photo. Hey, Christian, what's up? McBreezy. It's Peter. I'm here with Adam Manus and he's saying that the rhythm section is beyond just the base.

Just... Oh, you got to go. All right, peace. Well... You have to define it one way. That's right. What I wanted to do, why I'm defining it so loosely as it could be pianists or vibes or whatever as people who are accompanying, is because I do have some examples here of piano accompanying a voice solo piano.

And I think you do have the same responsibilities that a traditional bass drum guitar, bass drum, guitar, rhythm section has. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So we've talked about this a little bit before. So what is the most important job? Do you even know? I don't know because you didn't know. Remember our new format? It's like, I'm not going to tell you anything about it.

I mean, I know what I think it is. What do you think it is? Well, see, I want to hear from you first. Okay. You go first. I'll tell you what it. So the most important job for a rhythm section is to mark the form. It's to set up the form for the listener and for the other musicians they're playing with.

Survey says, correct. Right. So we could definitely caveat this by saying, yes, keeping time and playing the right chords. But, you know, in general, all of that kind of falls under the category of form. Yeah. Of keeping the form. And it really is our responsibility in the rhythm section to accompany in a way that makes the form very, very clear.

Yes. And I love this. I love this. And I'm glad that you picked that. It would wholeheartedly agree because I also feel like playing with good time, playing in tune, like all the different things you can say are the most important thing. Those are actually just. baseline, sorry,

no pun intended there, foundational, you know, almost just professionalism that we need to have really on any instrument but in terms of looking at the rhythm section,

you know, well, most important thing is to play together. No, that's not, like that's a given, if anything. So when we get into form and stuff,

like you could have all of your basic skills, foundational skills, fundamental skills, if you will, together, but still not be able to,

really mark and or I think bigger than even just mark or inclusive within that world of marking the form organizing the form which sometimes is not marking the form you know but being in control of that like really looking at it from an architectural standpoint it's just from a like I'm in this measure I'm going from here to here and so when you start to look at it with a little bit bigger picture a lot of these other things that are important become smaller though they're just like given it I love that from a mindset thing to be like no you're coming it's like you're coming to the basketball game what's the most important thing. Don't double dribble. No, you shouldn't even be on a court if you're worried about double dribbling. Right. So we're going to build this, I love that. So we're going to,

the basketball analogy. So we're going to build this up from the ground up. And the way that you would build anything up, marking the form is a craft and then it's an art. So just like if we were to like talk about voicing chords, right? There's a craft to that where you learn about the technical aspects of voicing chords. But then once you kind of understand the craft, the art begins. Because then you make choices. And your choices, are the art. So we'll build it up here with the craft and then we'll kind of like lean into the art a little bit. And so can we unpack those? We can unpack those. Nice. I want to kick off here with, this is actually kind of a unique example of this is from our course Fundamentals of Jazz

Drumming here at Open Studio. By the way, all the examples I'm going to play today are from open studio courses. I started to make a Spotify playlist from like classic albums. Yeah. And then I realized like, wait a minute. I have like all of this material here at Open Studio that we've made over the years and it's really amazing and we get to break it down kind of inherently because they're they're instructing in a lot of cases how to do this. So we're going to kick it off with Gregory Hutchinson from his amazing course fundamentals of jazz drumming and he is this is the name of the lesson is the art of comping and he's going to play evidence and he's actually going to kind of play the tune but you'll see he marks the form for himself.

And I thought this was the highest level. And Hutch is one of the great accompanists of all time. He's one of the great drummers ever. He's one of the great rhythm section players that's ever lived. Rhythm section personified in a lot of ways. He is. I don't think I've ever actually heard anybody. Team player.

Clearly mark the form in such a beautifully artistic way than Gregory Hutchinson. And he demonstrates it here effortlessly by himself on the drums. Now, before you start, let me just say one thing. You're absolutely right. And I'm having played with him for years. He's so lovingly, you know, extends his understanding to you of the form. Up until a point, it becomes unloving. When you start messing up the form or going against him.

Then the love is gone. Right. And that's because I think you can tell he is in service of the form. Exactly. And so anything that takes away from that, he's not the music. The music, exactly. He is not down. if you're messing with the music.

No. Yeah. Exactly. So let's check him out. And you're going to hear, if you know the tune evidence, you're going to hear the tune in what he's playing.

Yeah. But listen to how he marks himself and lets himself know where he is. It's remarkable. Check this out. Solo drums. Here's the bridge. Do you hear that?

Last day. All right. Here's the next chorus. Crystal clear. Yeah. Still the melody is there. Oh. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Never. an opportunity to lose your place because Hutch is gently cradling you down in the form. And that's solo drums. But that's what a great accompanies can do is they don't need, you know, you don't even need the other instruments. Like it's so clear, it's just so internalized. Yeah.

I think in Hutch that it just comes through effortlessly. And there's like a connection. He's so connected with the form that it extends even in playing solo drums to being connected with the bass, the piano, the horns, the melody. Even when they're not playing, it's like it actually, it's like an optical illusion, an oral illusion that it's brought in something whether, I mean, certainly if you know the song and then you feel like you kind of, he sets you right within that form so that you start singing it yourself in your head.

But even if you don't know it, he's giving you the lay of the land, if you will, so that, you know, And then the setups going into the chorus, like the second chorus, how it was going into the third, right? What we heard at the end compared to the first, you know, was a longer kind of setup. But it was like he was placing you within the next part of the form before you even got there. Before you even knew you needed to be there. That's right. Yeah.

No, he's he's foreshadowing. Yeah. Like he's casting ahead. He's shadow casting. Yeah. Like an expert flyfish. You know what I mean? But he's really, there's a lot of artistry there.

Yeah. Let's talk a little bit now with our next example, kind of about building up the craft, right? So building of the craft usually means kind of putting on some restrictions and thinking about things in a very kind of like cookie cutter kind of way before you could start making decisions. I found a really good example of a very clear cut marking

of the form in the way that we might traditionally think about it. It's on a blues form. This is a fast blues from Jeffrey Kieser's Advanced Jazz Piano Course. This is Ben Williams on bass and Billy Killson on the drums. Not a bad rhythm section behind Jeffrey Kieser. And I have here some double bars that mark each new chorus. And so I'll kind of mark those here audibly as we go. And you can follow along and hear how Ben sets up melodically what's happening each new chorus.

And Billy, for certainly, for certainly, for certain. For sure. For sure. Sets up the new chorus each time. This is kind of like, I think, a perfect example of a very high-level basic way to do this, right? And it's an easy way to hear. So every 12 bars you can hear these two masters reset the form. Let's check it out.

Just skating through here, right? Check it out. Here we go. A little flourish. I was on four too, right? Yeah. Again, it's a little flourish. Each time it's coming around here, right?

each time that chorus comes around. One, two. Now notice how Billy Kielsen's going to set up Kieser's phrases. Watch. Huh. Huh. And, you know, what Jeffrey Keezer is doing here is not basic. No.

This is not an Oscar Peterson blues, right? But the rhythm, if we look at Kilsen and Ben Williams, like they enable all this to happen, basically, because of what they played the first couple of choruses, that was the signal to Kieser like, Oh. Yeah, it's killing. So you can hear there, just a real clear-cut example of,

it wasn't every single, you know, bar 12 of the blues, but it was most of them. Billy Killson is setting up some kind of big spike of like, bam, bam, bam, bam, damn. Yeah. You know, and then you can hear within that setting up the phrases. So, you know, we were talking with some people before this about what is this, and in the most advanced level, this really is just conversational, right? So we can think about this as the craft of, yes, I should set up every four-bar phrase or every 12-bar or every chorus or every phrase of the melody or of the tune.

But then once you get going in it and the artistry kicks in and you start making choices, you're interacting and you're having a conversation with the soloist setting up phrase by phrase. And that's really, you know, I want you to think about as we're listening to the rest of these examples, like how conversational that gets. There's really no formula to it. The only formula is you have to listen so deeply and know where you are in the form. That's it. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, and I was just thinking, too,

that the way that the rhythm section, if we look at the bass and the drums as being the one, as the rhythm section in this case, their mastery of the form so early on in that performance is what really set things up in a way for Kieser to know that he could play with the form. Like it's almost like you're giving you're giving the soloist a license there. It's like, oh, by the way that you play, you're communicating that.

And so I love like a lot of times that happens. I'm in situations and I don't even think about it. So I take it for granted in a way, but I don't take it for granted because it's just, it's just so important. So the next way I want to talk about is there's a couple things that are going to happen in this next example. And this is great because I get to embarrass you now too. So this is from one of your courses with your friends, Gregory Hutchinson and Ruben Rogers. This is from Rhythm Section Workout, the second Rhythm Section course you did with Rubin and Hutch.

And this is your arrangement of in a mellow tone. And this is going to introduce the idea of the arrangement that you come up with. And this is a bit of a worked out arrangement for you. But there's nothing like, there's no like crazy, crazy reharmes in this. It's fairly straight down the middle as far as, it's just great ideas, right, of setting it up. But you have great ways here within the arrangement of setting up the form. Okay. That's part of arranging.

Like, you wouldn't put these hits in the middle of bar three after, like in the middle of the melody. So notice where Peters put this hits. Now, the first solo in this performance is Rubens. And so we're going to listen to you now become part of the rhythm section. Hold on. I put a bass solo first. I didn't set things up all that great then.

I know. Maybe not your best work. Maybe not your best work. No, but, so what I want to listen to with this one is both the arrangement and how you set up the head. and the form in general with the arrangement, but also then how you're setting up Rubin during his solo. You do some really interesting things here,

and it's very crystal clear to me. So let's check it out. This is in a mell tone, Peter Martin Trio. Right? Are we in three? Are we in five? I don't know. I always get lost.

No one does. But check out how you set this up. Brilliant here, Peter, really. I'm sorry, was that clear to everybody? Was that not clear? So, no, it's actually very nebulous leading up to that. and then when you hit that six chord going into the head, it's very clear. Let's hear that again, just that transition.

Your hits here, setting up the form. This is all part of it. This is part of marking the form. And some people might say with this like, oh, I mean, come on. Let's got to hear that again. Some people might say, and I can see already, some people saying, well, isn't keeping time the most important part? Keeping time is the most important part. This is keeping time.

This is keeping the form, which is keeping the time of the action. actual song. This is what it's about. It's not about just having good time. People can have good time and not sound like good musicians. Let's hear that transition going into that second A again. All setting up the melody. Look at that. Look at Hutch just like, bam, here's the floor. Check it out. Set up the solo. Well, what Hudge played on the one there, very subtle, but that kind of reset things in a way that gave Ruben the ability to kind of just play a nice idea without having to be like, okay, I'm starting my solo. It's a springboard.

Let's hear that again. Listen to what Gregory Hutchinson does here on the one of the form. One, two, three. It's a little symbol, a little brush on a symbol. Here's where we are, everybody. Yeah. It's part of it. And really what he does, you know, even more so like, like he has such a great swing,

you know, just a, what would you call it? just a basic brush swing groove that as soon as he goes into that, that kind of sets up the form in a way that's so, I mean, forget about just keeping time and swing and groove and all. He's like, two beats into it, he's already done that. It's telling you exactly where you're going to go here for the next,

and you feel safe and like wrapped up in a little form blanket. Exactly. As a soloist, isn't that what you want? You want to be like, okay, we are in a good place. You don't know how many times over the years,

and now that I'm thinking about it, I'll look over it Greg, like, and he'll, like, hit that symbol on the one where it's kind of like just in case because you know

if things are loosened up it might be four ways if someone's like just a little reminder okay let's go and there's no worse feeling as a soloist than you wondering wait does the drummer not know where the one is

oh no this is gonna be bad this is not gonna be good let's hear it again I know I want everyone to pay attention to what you're doing here Peter and how you set up the form no listen to what I did something good listen to how Peter comps crystal clearly for Rubin

and you'll never lose the form with how you're setting it up. Even your, even your voicing choices are hinting at the melody. And you're also responding. I can hear you responding to what Ruben's doing. Very clear. Now we're here. Oh.

Even that little thing, right there, right there at the end, that is not something you probably thought about, but you just responded, oh, you're done. Here's what I'm going to do, right? You're going to let the audience know, bass solo over. It's time for the money. Right. Well, yeah, and I think too, you know, actually, I don't know that I'm necessarily thinking about this on a actual phrase basis, but overall I do try to accompany in a way, and I guess this kind of fits in with where you're placing as a pianist within the form as you comp, especially during a bass solo where you don't have that sort of harmonic foundation of the rhythm section. But thinking about comping in a way that's not like, sometimes I know what.

Ruben's probably going to play or he'll play in such a logical way. But, you know, like, so I'll try to find something to play that fits with that and is interesting, but segues in terms of the form into the piano soul. So it's not like right up to the fourth beat of the last bar. I'm accompanying him only. And then I become a solace because I think that the listener, the music, it needs to breathe. It needs to feel like there's a transitional period. And that doesn't always happen right at the bar line.

I'm a bar line robot, you know. Yeah, yeah. And so I don't always hit. it, but I think that was an example where we did pretty good. I'm almost playing against him a little and starting to get in his way, but I'm playing in a way that still allows the end of his thing. So you get that fun kind of overlapping. Absolutely. And then Greg, really, from a rhythm standpoint, is the one who enables that, even that be able to have that kind of a dialogue between us.

Exactly, because then you can be free with the phrasing. You can be a little more free with the time even, knowing that that blanket is there and that the form is going to be with it. You know, the more I think about this sort of relationship between the time, playing time and the form, they really are intimately connected. You can't have one without the other. Form is really just the long form of the time. You break down the time to quarter notes, eighth notes, 16th notes, or a chorus. That's all just the length of time.

And so how we approach those periods of time, I think, are the important things for any rhythm section player. Yeah, and I think, too, like what you start to see, like, how the sort of next level of this is having such an intuitive understanding of the form. I know we keep coming back to the drums, but that's ultimately, I think, in this style of playing, the drummer in a lot of ways has the most potential control over interacting with others in the rhythm section

and the soloist and whoever else is playing. For sure. And kind of being the architect of the delineation of the form. It's everybody's responsibility to fit into the form. And you could argue that that's the base in a way because they have actual harmonic input

into like where the root is and things like that, but in terms of, like, especially you come to a bass solo situation where they're stepping out front, so how do you make it not feel like the rugs falling out from under you?

It's not the pianist, actually. It's the drums, I think, in this. Like, the more that we can as piano players, yeah, we're not going to be playing as loud as if it's the middle of a trumpet solo. It's a bass solo, but the interactivity, like how do you get to that point

where you can interact and comp behind and have the dialogue the same way you would with the vocalist, but it's a bass solo. That's a drummer that really understands the role of the rhythm section, their role in just very completely, as you say, like putting that blanket of the form on us, you know, and then giving that freedom within that. Let's talk now about the role of pitch in keeping the form, right? We talked a little bit about

it with your choice of chords and voicings for Ruben solo and how you kind of really, you kept the melody was audible in your voicings. But we have a chorus here from, this is from Rubin and Ulysses Owens Jr. called the Art of Swing. And they play a little bit here of Someday My Prince Will Come in three. And I want you to just pay attention to how Rubin very, I mean, he's such a master at this,

at just simply setting up your ears' expectation for where it's going to go melodically. So we'll just hear drums and bass here, but listen to how Rubin stays simple. So even that, even just setting up their we're going to start the form. We're going to start the melody. Yeah.

You know, he's just doing, you know, the pedal at front, and then he does two dotted half notes, right? Just, you know, essentially one note per bar. And then right before he does that, bam, you just landed so gently, like a 747. Yes. Just going in there, that little phrase there, everything leading in with leading tones,

half steps from above. Let's listen to that again. And what you list is, can we just play that same part back? Let's just focus a little bit on ULIS because he does hi-hat on two. each time and then there's one where he kind of opens up the hi-hat. And the same thing with the form.

And that's in an important place in terms of, like they're hearing the melody, even though it's not there, but in terms of the harmonic movement, it fits very well. Here. Just that little thing, you know. No, but it sets up the end of that phrase. Even Ruben's gonna hint at the melody here,

you know, the bass player can do it. There's no question where the chord changes are. Right. You know what I mean? He's not playing ninths and sharp elevenths in, you know, hitting these upper extension. And he's really letting his listener know, here's what's happening next. He's foreshadowing what's going to happen.

And then like all good artists, he might pull the rug out from under you occasionally, but that's just for your amusement. That's right. It's so great. That's right. And I think too, it's like you can see when he gets going on kind of a pattern of hitting the roots on the one, the same way with like with Ulysses and King, like really hitting that high hat. It's all about setting up patterns within the form.

And as you say, it might be for pulling the rug out under. It may be for omitting something. It might be for, you know, playing on the and a two instead of the two. That's what makes the music interesting and like understanding when to do that within the form. Like you can always tell kind of less advanced, less sophisticated, less nuanced rhythm section players that try to just throw all these things at you. And they're good things, but they're at the wrong time. You know, that's kind of a misunderstanding of the form and where your placement in it is so important as a rhythm section player. So our next example, you're going to like this a lot.

I like, I like the other ones. This is all really good. So our next example is from our course Brazilian rhythm section. And this is by the Brazilian rhythm section. This is a group of amazing Brazilian musicians out of Sao Paulo. And this is their fast samba lesson. And I mean, you want to talk about crystal clarity, even at fast tempos. Check this out.

This is fascinating rhythm, by the way, just so you can, you know, know the tune. Let's try it again. How great is that? Again, using the arrangement to set up the form, they do that every time. Check it out at the end of this chorus as well. This just feels awesome too. Simple groove, but man. Right there. You know where you are.

Yeah. You know where you are, but you don't mind the confirmation either, though. You just, yeah, it's like. Am I the right place? Yes, you are. Are you sure? Yes, you are. You ever go somewhere, like a beautiful place? I don't go anywhere anywhere anymore. Oh, yeah, no. Now, would you ever go to like a beautiful place, like a beautiful place in nature, but you've been there several times? And you know you're going around that bend.

Oh, here comes Lake Superior is coming up. I know it's coming. And even though you know it's coming, you still enjoy that view. Every time I go south across 44, I'm like, River DePere. River to Pear. It's coming. There it is. On the banks of the majestic River DePair.

Yes. Yeah. Isn't that awesome? Wait, what are we talking about? No, the Samba. Oh, the Samba. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I have another Samba feel queued up, actually.

This is from Elio Alves' brilliant chorus, Brazilian jazz piano. And this is him and Adu Ribeiro and Bob Debo on the bass and Romero LeBombo on guitar. Is Bob from Sao Paulo or from Brazil? He's the only one that does not speak Portuguese. But again, you can see very clearly here in the form just how solid, especially Adu.

Listen to how Adu marks every chorus. First of all, just listen to Adu. Zamba has more than one note. A little bit more than one note. Listen to those subtle things Adu's doing, though, to be like, here we are. Even at the end of... Yeah, he hasn't left the high end yet.

Just opening it up just at the end of phrase. It's just to be like, a little punctuation, you know? You want to talk about time feel, too, man. Ailer Alta is, holy smokes. Oh. Listen to, hey, dude, here's revving it up. And Romero, you might not even hear it, but at the end of phrases, I know you know he does this.

They'll be like, whoa. Yeah. He'll just be like this little question, like, what? Yeah. It's all part of the form. It's all part of the form. So great. So that's from Brazilian jazz piano from Aalvo Alves.

Just an amazing, amazing course, and amazing group of musicians who are masters at that. Yep. So we're going to do a couple more here. This is by someone who knows a little bit about this. And this would be this person's definition of a rhythm section. This is Christian McBride. From his course, your sound is your signature.

And here they're going to talk a little bit about, I think this is I thought about you. Carl, I was thinking we could. It's him and Carl Allen, by the way. Not any slouches on keeping time in the form. Demonstrate a two-field, because I feel like that two-field, that really separates the pros from the amateurs.

Agreed. So they're going to demonstrate it to feel here. What a great. What a great vibe. Here it is. Here's Christian McBride and Carl Allen. And again, there's no soloist here. So they're just kind of demonstrating, but notice how they still, even though there's no one to respond to, they're marking the phrases of the melody where it would be. You can hear Christian actually singing the melody. And listen to what Christian does both melodically and rhythmically, amazing stuff. So even just that. Sorry. So I just want to back it up. Listen to what he does here on this walkdown, right? He's going to mark, here's the last phrase of the A by doing this little walkdown.

It's so obvious when they were showcasing the two feel because he can use his rhythm. Yeah. Watch this. Use that. And the place that he's ending up, you know, it's like. And the sounds unbole. I mean, Carl is marking every beat so clearly. Yeah.

Yeah, for a second. Yeah, let's stay there. The little subtle things that Carl Because Chris is playing a lot And it's really everything that's needed for the form But oh Setting that up Where you have to find those things

You know to fit in with the form Check it out, check it out Carl caught that so slim I know right But this is what I'm saying man Coming back to now Now we're definitely at art form level This is not craft

I mean this is a lot of craft In years of working on their craft But these are two premier artists that are that are showing you how to keep time and how to set up a form with the two feel yeah and it is becoming that that idea of they're not setting up every four bar bar line robot or every phrase I mean it's literally a conversation about the form that's happening here like they're they're posing questions to each other about the phrases right and answering each other it's that's when it gets like it just this is why people when they see live jazz

they smile and their heart skips a beat and they tap their foot. Yeah. Because you can have the conversations about the song during the song. Yeah. It's amazing. And I mean, what Carl's doing there is so brilliant because when you're having, just like you say, when you're having a conversation, like when to step in, like the easiest thing is to wait for the other person to finish.

Then you say something and then they say something. It's not the easiest thing. But that's like you have to figure out when they're going to be done. But a rhythm section, now maybe we're at the meat of it now, the bass and the drums, right? But when they're having that conversation together, but being the support of the form and of the music and of the solace and everything, it's like you have to be kind of talking at the same time. And so somebody needs to sort of be able to do interesting things and have that conversation without overtaking it. There's so many little subtle things. I can listen to that all day.

I want you to start just from the beginning of this form and I want you to listen to Carl's quarter note. I have to. By that, I mean, you can hear beats one. And if you see the video here from the chorus, you can see him like lift the brush way high before beat one. And, you know, like, it's a clear beat one. And then that hi-hat is a clear beat two. Three is on the snare drum again.

I mean, he's really playing all four beats, even on this two feel. And you don't get a sense of this, like, overwhelming cord or no, but it's all there. Check it out. I mean, you can really feel the pulse. With every beat, you know? It's so locking.

already. Man. It's such a joy, actually, to watch these two, listen to these two do this, you know? He's going to mark it? Just little fills to set it up, you know? Carl caught every single, like, he knew what he was going to do. He caught the triplet on the end, and then he caught the back end.

Listen to that again, that Phil going into the second egg. Man, it's like he's reading his mind. I know. It's just amazing. Yeah. Well, and the whole thing about it, too, is like, sometimes people get it twisted in that it's like, oh, you're too locked in, then you're playing like a robot or you're playing automated or you have to, you've backed yourself into a corner.

But I really think with the great rhythm section players, it's the opposite. Like when you start out and you can get locked in, I mean, the reality is they're locked in like during the count off basically. Yeah. But within the first few beats, now you've got the freedom to just let it flow. And it's not like Carl's like, oh, I have to catch everything. Even if he knows what he's going to play. It's like, what do you catch? What do you not?

Like how do you compliment just like in a conversation where if you're like, yeah uh-huh boom yeah yeah and then you're ready to jump in or pull back and if they say something that's a little unexpected that's fine but you're not ever aping what the other person like that's the kind of rhythm section that is not in service of the form because things get out of balance I think like we can give an example like why don't you start talking to me and I'll give you an example of bad conversation so but this weekend I was and me don't go me this is not

fun see because you know I'm saying it's like I'm trying to I think I know what you're going to say, so I'm going to say it with you. Yeah. But let's try that again. So this weekend, Nico and I were learning a song on the piano that we could play together. Together. Yeah, see, that was more fun. That was good.

Yeah, we got a rapport here. We've been doing this podcast. We know how to do many things at once. Okay, so I want to go out on one because we, I know we have a lot of pianists that listen to this podcast and I want to sort of address how the piano itself can be, you know, the cliche as the piano can be the orchestra, right? It could also be the rhythm section. And this is from Diane Reeves' course, Define Your Voice,

which is just a beautiful course. And it's you and Diane, and you're going to play the tune, that's all, right? And so the point of this, the lesson is called Making a Stand of Your Own. So Diane's going to kind of demonstrate how she would do this sort of straight ahead in a kind of a typical way as a ballad, and then how she would do it as sort of a different way

that she would like to do it. And that's not really what I want to talk about, though. I want to kind of more listen to what you're doing because it's a chance to hear Peter do these two different time feels and you set her up in different ways depending on the field. And I want to, you probably weren't thinking about it.

Again, you were just, this is just innate at this point, but I want to just notice here, we're going to hear the same tune. We'll listen to it as a ballad, and then we'll hear that second version where it's a little more medium up. But here's, that's all as a ballad. You know?

And a promise. to be new Little answers and the only heart that's all So even there You just did that little half chorus

Right But you can hear you Answering her You know She's singing the melody Just really straight down The middle It was pretty basic

And well I mean she It's Diane So it's never Basic basic basic But you know what I mean Basic is good with her But no

It's yeah Basic is amazing With her So But you can hear you Again We'll listen to it again listen to what Peter does between each phrase one more time.

Listen to what he does while she's singing and while she's not. I just want to stop real quick, but even in the middle of this phrase, and the only heart I own, you do a little thing after that between the last half of the sentence. Check it out. You know, almost again, answering her question even just in the middle of the phrase. Great. And I think on this, too, at first I was like, wait, are we playing? Yeah, it's kind of.

in time, like, it's a real subtle implication of the time, which I like to do when it's just a duet, like when you are the whole rhythm section. Because I never feel like, okay, now we have to pretend like it's this like strict time with the trio, pretend like it's brushes. The whole beauty of it is that you can loosen that up, but still have the form laid out. If you have a lesser singer that doesn't know how to really nail the lyric and the melody, then you have to do a little bit more rigid type of playing. But when you've got that, you know, Diane Reeves singing the melody like she really is actually handling the whole form because of the way the lyric and the melody is so that eases me up i could even been playing a little bit more probably but maybe i did later so now

diane's going to mix it up here uh do it a little bit up tempo and listen now peter adjusts how he keeps the time and marks the form I can't be, ba-ba-d-d-d-de-dee-da-dee. Yeah. I can only give you love that last forever. And I promise to be near each time you call. And the only heart I own for you, you alone, that's all.

Baby, baby, baby, ooh, that's all. I mean, right there, you just did the same thing Christian did in the lesson before. Oh, he told me it was cool. I said, can I borrow that bass on? He's like, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, listen to how Peter totally rips Christian's face. And I had to go when leaves begin to burn and light will warm that cold winter's night. Oh, baby, baby, that's all.

Again, it's a conversation here. So right there, that baseline, never destroy, and listen to how you just switch it up, that subtle thing you do with the eighth note dotted quarter note thing. Destroy if you're wondering. Just commenting on the form. Yeah, so sometimes, like, those, you hear she, Dianz is like, she kind of loosens things.

Like, she's singing really rhythmic before that. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, I can't claim to actually have noticed this in real time, but sometimes it works out. Of course. Where you can kind of cross over then. And she kind of loosens it up. And then I give her a little bit of stu-like, I almost turn the syncopation around,

which is a little bit, it's conversational, but it's also in terms of the form, like, okay, I got this. Yeah. Let's flip it over on its head so that when we come out to that last day, bam, we flip it back over. That's awesome. It's awesome. So let's... And you know that my demands are small.

See, it's new that to the door for now and ever more. It's like now she's sort of riding the wave on top of the time. But you're giving her the confidence of having that very solid. First of all, your time is impeccable, of course. That's a given, right? But you're giving her by setting her up and letting her know that you're not just going to play through her breaks no matter what happens. So you can hear that when she's singing, you're keeping things very simple and very much so that she has a nice warm blanket to sort of sing over. And then when she leaves you a bit of space, you answer her musical questions so she doesn't feel like she's just left out.

there with nothing like she's just playing to you know i real be or something right like that that's not how that works well wait until it gets to the third chorus i actually pull from underneath i don't want to give it away from underneath the piano an electric heated blanket and handed to it thus giving her going from a proverbial here on blanket i've been warming this up now here's the actual warm blanket that's awesome this is a little bit more and uh yeah So just listen to this transition here between the end of her eight bars here, you set up this two five going into the flat five chord

that started your solo with a little hit. And this is exactly kind of what I'm talking about here. It really kind of depends on where she's going to end her phrase, and I think you just nail it. Such great communication. So that to me, that signifies everything we're talking about today. That there's no such thing as form robots. You want to be very clear with where things are,

but it really depends on what's going on. And it's a conversation. Again, hearing you and Diane, hearing Christian and Carl Allen have this conversation about the song while they're playing the song, it's just really inspiring, man. And to me, this is what separates rhythm sections I want to listen to from rhythm sections.

it just kind of sounds okay, you know? Yeah, no, I think it's, I think that the art of rhythm section playing, that's kind of what you're talking about. And it really does, the foundation is that most important job of rhythm. Let's not lose sight of that because that's what enables then the subtlety. So when we talk about really nailing the form, understanding the form, it's almost like the most important job of the rhythm section player. And the rhythm section in this case, you know, piano or piano bass and drums,

whatever, however we're looking at it, is what they bring already before they start. You know what I mean? So it's like if everybody, starting from the bass and the drums, and we remember when we started this with just Hutch, just with the drums. So like an understanding of the form. I mean, not just like, oh, I know the tune. No, but I'm talking about a deep kind of understanding where like you could be thinking of something else.

You have to. Yeah. Where it's like nothing you can be like, ah, look at me, look at me. he doesn't matter. He's just like right in there with that. And then you build on that all the way up to the vocalist or the soloist or whatever. Like that foundation is just so solid and becomes so interesting. And then some things to take note of, some takeaways for me is when you have a foundation

like that, when it's so solid and it's so ingrained, that means you know where the melody is going to be. And that means that you're listening to the soloist and you know exactly what they're doing because you're with them in the moment and you can comment and respond. And that's, I think, when a company really becomes an art form. Then you make choices of how to answer questions, how to pose your own questions, and how to make crystal clear to your audience and to the other musicians, what's happening here? Like, what, you know, it's just like your annoying conversation example.

That, you know, don't be that player. Don't be that player that's just not in the conversation that doesn't have their head in the music. Be like Hutch. Respect the music. Right. You know, keep no matter what, that means that it's just the melody. Like, what I want to kind of break away from is the idea that you're just going off of the real book chart and you're setting up every four bars or whatever.

It's much more organic than that. It's much more of a conversation. And that's, I think, the easiest way to think about it. Absolutely. Yeah, don't be able to pose the question. Don't be a poser, but be able to pose the questions. You know what I'm saying? I think we can end it on that note, everybody.

Well, thanks so much for listening today. If you like what you heard, go to openstudiojazz.com for more. All of these examples that they were from our courses. I thought it would be cool to kind of showcase what we got over there. We have so much good stuff. Yeah, and actually this is kind of a good reason. So open studio jazz.com go there and you can access all this. If you come in as a piano access pass, no, I was an all access pass member, actually.

That's the whole reason because sometimes people like, why I just want the piano courses. No problem. We've got the piano access every single piano course that you saw. That's right. But if you want to go next level and access the Dian Reeves course, the Christian McBride courses, go with your All Access Pass because there's so much we can learn from each other. There's so much horn players can learn with, like if you learn how to be a great, what it takes to be a great rhythm section player, that's how you're going to be able to play

with a great rhythm section. Once you get the opportunity, you understand it from their standpoint. Same thing, if you're a pianist, so much to learn from Steve Wilson's saxophone course so that when you get a chance to play with a great saxophoneist, you can start to know what you're doing. I learn more about how to play melodies by watching Diane Reese's course than almost any piano course we have. I mean, really, it's truly an amazing resource. So cool. Well, we did it again, Adam.

We nailed it with both generosity, genius, and a sense of gratitude. You know, they didn't think it was possible, but we did it. And humility. No, no, no, just G's. No, no H's were involved. Thanks, everybody. Until next time. You'll hear it.