You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Peter Martin x Strong Songs Interview

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

How much do you know about Peter Martin? In this conversation with Kirk Hamilton of the Strong Songs podcast, Peter shares his musical influences and trajectory as a young jazz pianist. He brings us right back to the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s with stories of meeting Wynton Marsalis, and playing with jazz legends like Betty Carter, Roy Hargrove and Joshua Redman.Plus, he shares his take on jazz education, the marathon runner's mindset and why anyone and everyone can play music.Check out the Strong Songs podcast: https://strongsongspodcast.com/Start your free Open Studio trial for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs: https://osjazz.link/yhi 00:00 - Introducing Today's Episode02:50 - Peter's Strong Songs Interview06:00 - Peter's Musical Background08:00 - The Suzuki Method14:30 - Nurturing Talent 16:30 - How Peter Discovered Jazz20:30 - Meeting Wynton Marsalis27:00 - The Midwestern Jazz Scene33:20 - Juilliard, Roy Hargrove and the Young Lions35:40 - Moving to New Orleans38:30 - The Economics of Jazz in the 90s40:00 - Playing with the Legendary Betty Carter44:30 - Jazz Musicianship Then and Now47:15 - Roy Hargrove and the Summer of '9452:15 - Joining Joshua Redman57:45 - Rethinking Jazz Education1:02:15 - The Marathon Runner's Mindset1:07:20 - Kenny Kirkland: Awe & Inspiration1:15:00 - Roy Hargrove, The RH Factor and Hard Groove1:20:00 - My Funny Valentine - Miles Davis1:25:00 - How to Find the Recommendations in this Episode

What's up, everybody. Peter Martin here. Welcome to the You'll hear at podcast. We have a very special deluxe exclusive audio-only version. This week, I had the honor and privilege of being a guest on Kirk Hamilton's wonderful Strong Songs podcast a couple weeks back. And he was generous enough to share the episode with us. We thought you guys might get a kick out of it. If you hadn't heard Kirk's wonderful podcast, you should go check that out. Strong Songs. We'll have a link to that. But this is the episode in its entirety. We're talking 90. He's jazz, 2000's jazz. He took me back to some really fun record dates and performances I did back in the day all the way up till today. We just nerded out as we do. I hope you enjoy it. Hello, everyone. Kirk here, still hard at work on season eight of strong songs. And in the interim, I have been running interview episodes like the one that you are about to hear. This one is with someone who will be familiar to some of you.

Jazz pianist Peter Martin is no stranger to the world of music podcast. His own music podcast, You'll Hear It, which he co-hosts with fellow pianist Adam Manus, is a great listen, and I was actually a guest earlier this year talking with them both about Tower of Power. I ran that episode in this feat a little while back, so some of you probably heard it. The folks at Open Studio, Peter's online jazz education outfit, reached out to see if I might want to have Peter on Strong Songs as a guest, and I thought, hey, it's not every day you get to talk with someone who played on some of your favorite jazz records of the 90s, or really of all time.

Peter is the real deal as jazz players go. He spent the 90s and 2000s working as a side man with artists like Betty Carter, Diane Reeves, Roy Hargrove, and Joshua Redmond. He's also just a killing player. You'll hear a lot of his playing in this episode. He is, man, the guy can play. He's also, of course, led his own groups. You're hearing a track right now from a recent record of his

called Generation S, which he recorded over the course of a single recording session at the Open Studio Space in the... St. Louis. Peter and I talked about a bunch of interesting stuff, his musical background, what it was like to come up learning the Suzuki method, how the 90s jazz scene differed from the scene of today, and some of the many players who influenced him as a young pianist from Winton Marsalis to Kenny Kirkland and many more. And I do just want to note we had some issues with Peter's audio file that required some creative fixes in the edit. Hopefully you won't notice too much of it, but if you hear any weird levels or audio issues, that is what that's about.

It was a great conversation filled with a ton of great music. I really hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Peter Martin. Peter Martin, welcome to Strong Songs. Oh, what's up, Kirk? Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Yeah, man. I'm so happy to have you here. It is not every day that we have a player of your caliber on the show, and I'm hopeful that you can impart some of your chops to our listeners through osmosis.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'll try not to overdo it so as to run true music lovers away, of which I'm a true music. I'm not just a player. It's like the old hand-time thing. I love music and I know sometimes as jazz players, we can over-analyze and nerd out, which is part of the fun too, though. We've done that a little bit together before. No, it's true. It is. It's kind of a, I'm noticing that more these days, I think. Maybe it's because of the work that I do. And of course, you guys just show as well, you'll hear it. There is a kind of a new strain of music appreciation from people who could be snobs, who have the musical training maybe to be very snobbish about what they listen to, and who are instead dedicating their knowledge to kind of explaining other non-jazz music and just finding the jazz in everything since so much music, you know, has elements of jazz or has derived from jazz in some way. Yeah, I'm starting to realize that there's way more people that are interested in jazzy things or jazzy elements or parts of jazz than actual hardcore jazz.

I mean, I think when people are exposed to it and can kind of come to it in an organic way through a love of an album and you do such a great job of breaking things down, I remember your So What episode. I think that was the first time I became aware of you. It's such an interesting place to come at this music, and then, of course, it becomes this,

not a rabbit hole, like about 3,000 rabbit holes that are all interconnected and stuff. But it's, yeah, I mean, I think jazz, if anything, its influence on so many other forms of music and the little parts that have been taken and borrowed and thrown around is really one of the most interesting aspects of the music. For sure. It's something that, you know, it goes across sampling and it goes across pop music and fusion and into, I mean, just there are so many groups now. All these new, you know, young artists that I listen to who are insane jazz musicians

but are making music that I don't think I would like categorize as jazz, or certainly isn't, you know, hard-bop-adjacent acoustic jazz, but has so much jazz harmony and so much going on, that it is very fun to kind of tease that out for people and show them the links in the chain. Since the links in the chain, like, that's the whole thing, right? That's kind of what makes American music so fascinating and always has, going back to, you know, the 19th century.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, let's talk a little bit about your story, about the links in Peter Martin's chain, since I think some listeners won't know, you know you. You are, of course, a brilliant player and worked as a sideman for many jazz luminaries, and I would argue are a jazz luminary in your own right. But also, being a jazz luminary is still being a jazz luminary. Jazz is a little more niche, and some people won't have heard your stories.

So how about you give listeners a little breakdown? Just how did you get your start? When did you first start playing piano? So I was playing, I come from a very musical family. Both my parents were and actually still are. professional musicians. Oh nice. What do they play? Like what are your dad and loud instruments? Well they're both classical musicians primarily. My mom plays violin and my dad plays viola but he also plays piano

and organ and he's a super talented guy really my kind of just musical mentor in addition to my father you know but I mean right right really just I think a lot of and my mom as well she was she was she's kind of semi-retired now but she was really my first teacher because I started on violin she was a Suzuki teacher and even before I was in school she'd kind of bring me along when she was teaching other kids

and sort of stuck a violin in my hand partly just babysat but that was really my first instrument and then my older sister was playing piano so I saw that and my dad played piano and actually my mom played piano too so there was a lot of music in the house I was I mean I was born in 1970s

so it was kind of coming up in the 70s and early 80s it was kind of a it was a great time like to be bored and then have to find something to occupy your time. You know what I mean? Yeah, oh yeah, sure. And so I love music and heard a lot of great music.

So that was kind of how I occupied myself. Like the piano was as much just sort of this like machine or video game or it was just something that made noise and I could touch and sit at and, you know, play around with. And then so there wasn't a lot of distractions, you know? Right. I mean, there was like four hours straight of, cartoons on Saturday morning for us to

rot our brain on, but that was a very specialized time. Right, there was no Roblox. It was a pretty different time. Although I think we did watch he-haw every single night, like, while my mom was making dinner. Yeah, definitely a different time. Yeah, but I heard music, and I really came

up playing, I guess, you know, kind of classical music. I mean, not when I was two and three in first playing, but I, well, I did learn in the Suzuki method, which I think is a really important part of my story and a number of jazz musicians, more than you would think, that came up with this method.

Really? Could you explain what the Suzuki method is for listeners? I don't think I've ever talked about it on the show. Yeah, is this a four-hour podcast? Because we can do that. Yeah. This will be Act 1. Suzuki is a Sinichi, Suzuki was a Japanese violinist that I think came up out.

I mean, I want to say like the 50s and 60s, but it really came to the U.S. like right around early 70s. And in fact, my mother was one of the first American teachers that kind of imported this. and she went over and studied with Suzuki later on, like in the early 80s in Japan. Oh, wow. And knew him.

But he wrote this wonderful book called, he wrote a bunch of books, but he wrote one called Nurtured by Love that's all about like learning music the same way we learn our first language, what they call the mother tongue. So it's like you typically learn that from a parent or a caregiver, a grandparent, whoever is raising you,

you learn English or Japanese, whatever your mother tongue, your first language. And you learn it at such a young age, you're not learning it by, reading it, obviously. You're just imitating the person that's giving you, hopefully, love and attention and protection in the world, and that's your communication device. So it's kind of a method that's based around learning music in the same way. So they start very young in Suzuki,

sometimes even as young as two and three years old. And you don't learn reading music, you don't learn theory, anything you just learn. And it started on violin, but it's been ported to the piano and cello and flute and a bunch of instruments. But it's just this great thing of learning by ear. And so I think it really helped me years later when I got into jazz and different kinds of improvised music and trying to learn things by ear because I had that tradition of learning stuff by ear sort of built into me. I did learn to read music fairly young, which was atypical for Suzuki because I was doing more like traditional piano. But on the violin, I always played by ear. And that was such a cheat code for me in kind of a similar way to some like gospel church musicians coming up where they, they, they. They learn in the church by listening and then trial by fire and imitation and mentorship and, you know, getting looked at bad by the church elders if you're messing up the cord.

But they're not learning. There's no charts. You know what I mean? Right, right. So if you think about learning any foreign language, it's a very interesting and organic way, especially if you're doing it at a young age. It's a great entry point. Yeah, it's so funny.

I think of the Suzuki method from my own experience with it as just something I bought a Suzuki method book for piano because I am a middling. pianist. You know, I learned in school and, you know, took jazz piano, but I was studying saxophone. Yeah. And, and wish I had taken it more seriously. And then later in life was like, okay, I'm going to finally start to get my piano technique together and got a Suzuki book, which is, it sounds like not actually really true to the core of the Suzuki method, which is more about having a teacher, having a mentor. And in fact, the really original way, and it's still done like this, in fact, we did it with our kids, which was a great experience to kind of have that next generation.

but the teacher, the first teacher is actually the parent. So when you go to an authentic Suzuki method teacher, the parent learns first, sometimes for months, and the kid watches the parent learning the instrument. And in fact, when we did it, my wife did it because I already knew I'll play violin. Like for the kids to be able to see the parents struggle and learn something, that's a part of the process. And they're usually too young.

And then they are getting, you know, amped up to, like, I want to get my own violin. I want to try this, and you start with a little box and like a chopstick instead of a string. It's a whole thing. It's a little bit cultish to tell you the truth, but in a really, I think, fantastic way. I mean, Suzuki, like the authentic thing is a very particular thing, but it's had amazing results, most importantly. That's so interesting. The idea that watching your parents struggle to learn something helps you find a way in, which I could totally imagine being true. I mean, so much of what I do now, I mean, like, learning guitar has been my main focus for,

the last few years. I will never be as good at guitar as I am at saxophone. But there just came a point on saxophone where I was like, well, I kind of want to do other things. And putting myself back in that place of struggling, of not just being able to easily play the instrument, has been really good for me. I could, I'd never thought of it as, you know, something that you could watch somebody else doing, somebody else struggling with and learning in that way. It's that beginner's mindset. And a big part of it, too, for Suzuki is the parent needs to know, it's such an interactive thing because you go in once a week for a lesson. If you're three, four, five, six years old, you've got six days of how do you, like the parent has to be the teacher, actually. That's what

it's really about. But it's not just like, well, you're fiddling around and just fiddling, ha, catch that dead joke. Inverting dad jokes. You know, somebody has to be teaching at home. A lot of these methods kind of fall short because you're just having to go by the book. You don't have anyone to kind of correct. Especially for violin, it's such a physically awkward. I mean, when I switched to piano, I didn't really switch, I started, I added it, I was like, oh, this is my home. Oh, yeah, you get to sit down.

All the ergonomics are off the charge. Yeah, press the button, you get a note. It couldn't be simpler. It's in tune. Well, it might not be in tune, but it's not your fault if it's not, you know. Right, right. That's so funny. But that was really my beginnings. It was like so much music in my house. It just seemed like a natural thing. It's like the ultimate

like sort of cultural privilege, I think, to come up in a household of, you know, I mean, I mean, my parents love me too. They didn't just give me music. They were great parents. Right. Right. But still, it's a nice extra thing. Yeah. So, I mean, just making music and thinking about that as a profession or a vocation seem normal as opposed to most kids get into music and the parents are like, I'm not paying for you to go to some stupid conservatory. Man. You know, get a real degree. It's so true. I recently made an episode about my dad. And he was very much not that he also just treated me wanting to be a professional musician as something reasonable. like as just a career profession, like a profession that I could have. And it was so important. And I, after that, I heard from so many people who said something similar. And from a few who said the opposite. Basically, my parents never believed that being a musician was something like a real goal for me. And so I didn't feel supported and I've regretted it my whole life. So yeah, that is, that is very important. But we could go on a whole tangent here. I mean, I kind of now I want to ask about the orf method. Really quick, do you know about the orf method? Wait, what's the difference between the orf method and Suzuki? I don't know it as well, but I actually did some of that.

two in like a preschool that I was in. It sounds kind of similar, my understanding of it, right? It's like mallets and no reading. Yeah, I remember having a lot of fun with the Glocken spiel. Yeah, yeah. I've taught some students who learned the Orf method, which is essentially the same kind of idea, a lot of ensemble playing, focus on rhythm, ear training,

and it seems like a very cool thing. I mean, the thing is like music, it's like all these different methods, I think, I mean, some of them I think are a little bit whack. but the main thing is like music is fun like for kids like any method where they're not engaged it doesn't mean there's not going to be different levels and of course there's the talent we bring to it

but one big thing in Suzuki is like it is so much more about how you're nurtured in music than what your natural talent like one thing that's not accepted in Suzuki is like that some people are not talented enough to play an instrument it's something that's so deeply ingrained in me that like if you're so I mean

people like when they find at my story, they're like, oh, both your parents, oh, that's why genetically, you were paid disposed. I said, no, I just, they played a lot of music around me. I got to hear a lot of good stuff. I got lucky on some things. Yes, I had some talent, but I would say the talent part was way, way, way less than people think, as opposed to kind of a nurturing musical environment. Yeah, that makes sense and kind of tracks with what you're doing now, which I guess we could get it to a little bit later, just talking about, you know, how you've approached your own style of teaching and kind of, you know, bringing that forward.

and offering a lot of people of different skill levels, ways to learn, since I agree, the talent thing is typically overblown, even though it always feels a bit rich coming from someone who, you know, was like, did grow up with incredibly skilled parents and, like, has been playing for a really long time and has been a brilliant player from a young age. I mean, you know, it is, it's true. I could also give you stories about how my parents screwed me up. There's all, there's those, like, we'll skip over, though. So I don't want to make it like it was all, you know. Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's, no parent is perfect. So how did you discover jazz? When was your jazz awakening? So I had heard a fair amount of jazz, like from my dad's records from when I was pretty young, if not from the beginning. Like, he's really a classical musician, but he's always enjoyed jazz and had a nice little collection. And so I definitely heard it growing up, but it was more like, that's dad's music, that's whatever. What were some of the first records you remember hearing?

Well, the first ones I remember were there was a great box set. called the Smithsonian What was it? Like the Smithsonian Jazz The classic jazz collection. Yeah, I remember that. It was like a thing that you had to order or like donate or become a member of

and then mail this beautiful like five LP set. And like I definitely heard that stuff. Later on I kind of, when I really started to get into jazz, I dove into that and it was such a great thing. Like Miles Davis, Bag's Groove is on there. Polonius Monk.

Artatum. My dad had a record. called Art Tatum Piano Starts Here that's the first like real hardcore jazz record that I'm conscious

like I remember when I heard that I was like what is that and then Miles Davis My Funny Valentine that was a little bit later but mainly that

that classic jazz collection had so much and Ornett it went all the way up to the current time which like the craziest thing was like Ornette Coleman

in 1968 I think that's about when that thing was put together so it's funny because that's like wow we're going from Lewis Armstrong West End Blues

I think was the first track on there. Oh no, maybe you even had some Jelly Roll Morton even before that. Mead Lux Lewis was on there. Oh, nice. So much great stuff. Yeah, it's interesting to put this in time, you know, you're listening in the sort of mid-70s, which isn't

that far after, you know, you talked about My Funny Valentine, that was, what, 64? Yeah, so it's only like 10, 11 years after that. So this is like, you're listening to music from, for us, something from 2014. Right, but I mean, man, the 60s seem like, I mean, still to me, seems like, because I wasn't

alive and it's like man that was ancient times but yeah yeah well in some ways it was even in the 70s and so much changed just in like recording technology the recordings just sounded so different that i would imagine it was very different yeah so did you find uh a jazz piano teacher pretty soon after you started getting interested in jazz not really i mean well i found some sort of mentors and some sources of information um i never i always had a really great uh piano teachers coming up i grew up in mostly in St. Louis. I was born in central Florida, but when I was five years old, my family moved to St. Louis because my father got a job playing with the St. Louis Symphony. And it was kind of a random move. He was just like looking to, a whole other story. Anyway, like that was the first orchestra he

auditioned at. And it was kind of a warm up because he was going to go auditioned at some other orchestras because normally you have to, and he just sort of got offered the job. And so it was like, we're moving to St. Louis. I don't remember any of this or hardly any of it. But the idea was that, like, through the orchestra, I kind of was, I grew up around the symphony players a lot. I used to go down to the hall. It's funny, it's like a block from where I'm sitting right now. Yeah. Come full circle, Powell Hall.

So I was always around a lot of other good musicians, and they got plugged in pretty quickly to some really good piano teachers here. And I always had, I had three different teachers. The main one was, her name was Jane Allen, was just an amazing teacher. At that time, and St. Louis still kind of is, like, it was a little bit of an epicenter for like youth music education, especially in the 70s and 80s. And even still so, like the band program's really good, the orchestra programs.

A lot of that's trailed off, but like it was just a lot of luck that I was here, even beyond my parents. So I had great classical teachers, but I didn't really had, I had a couple of jazz teachers sporadically, but it was more the classical teacher. I was listening to records.

And then the big aha moment was in like 1983. I met Winton Marsalis, who came to St. Louis and played with the St. Louis Symphony. And it was right around the time I was really getting into jazz. Like I was kind of like, man, I like this. And he, my dad was playing and he met him and said, hey, my son and some of his friends, we were in middle school. Like how this kind of jazz band, you know, you got any advice for him? And he's like, man, can you bring them down tomorrow to the rehearsal?

I want to meet them, you know? Nice. And that began like a whole, so we got to skip school and we came down. And Witten wasn't that, I mean, he was probably, I think he's like maybe nine or ten years older than me. So, like he was in his early 20s. This is like he's in the jazz messengers around this time, is that right? After the jazz messengers, but not that long after. I mean, this was probably, like, no, he had already done like his first couple of Columbia records.

And I was kind of aware of those, especially one because, well, he played on a Herbie Hancock record with the VSOP 2. And I was really into Herbie Hancock. I just got to hear of Herbie Hancock. And so I kind of knew about him from that. And then he was a really, it was like an explosive time for him because he won a Grammy for best classical record and for best jazz record, which had never been done. And he played live on, I remember I watched on on like CBS. He played classical and jazz. Can you imagine that?

Yeah. In the main prime time. They don't have none of that on it anymore. No, it's always been the amazing thing about Winton. Monette Trumpets, the trumpets that he plays, those are made here in Portland. And I know a bunch of guys who work there. So they'll get seats for when Winton comes out here, like with Lincoln Center. and you get to hear him play.

And yeah, I remember even from the first time I heard him, it was that album, is it called Carnival? It's like with the Eastman Wind Ensemble. And it's, you know, him playing classical music and just crushing, I mean playing. I don't know, circular breathing stuff playing Flight of the Mumblebee, doing all this totally ridiculous stuff. Yeah.

And of course that's simultaneous with he's putting out these groundbreaking jazz records. Yeah, he had a big 80s and 90s for that matter. Yeah, and I remember my dad was like slightly, I don't think my dad had heard him play jazz. I knew he was just like, I remember him just saying, he's like, man, this is the best classical trumpeter

we've ever played with. And they'd had like Maurice Andre at the performance of them and stuff. And he's like, this kid is unbelievable. I'm like, kid, man, that dude's old, you know? But it was just fun to meet him because he was like, I mean, like the first time I met him,

he gave me his phone number. It was like, if you have any questions. I remember he told me, he was like, man, check out the loniest monk. And I'm like writing stuff down. I'm like, what? How do you spell that? He's like, just as from a month.

And I went to the record, you know, vintage vinyl the next day the record started it. Oh, man. So he really was a huge, you know, just opened things up for me, even though I knew a few things. But he told me about this, this McCoy-Tiner solo on Lonnie's Lament on an album called Crescent. And I just always stayed in touch with him.

Turns out he was doing that with like a bunch of kids around the country as he traveled, you know. And then he ended up connecting us. And I know we're probably going to end up talking about Roy Hargrove at some point. But that was that first connection I had was through Winton. So I mean, like, Witten was, he really was the internet of the 80s for jazz. Like he was the, like, if you wanted to connect with something or find out some information, that was, he was so generous with his time. And, you know, whether or not there was a nefarious diabolical plan to, like, create little underlings to come up.

That's another, I'm not sure. I don't think so, but maybe a little bit. That's not so diabolical, though, you know? I kind of get why he would want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, he was also very controversial at the time. I wasn't totally aware of that because I just didn't have a big worldview. But, I mean, in terms of the jazz community and what he represented his records, the amount of money they impressed and marketing they were putting behind him.

And his really steadfastness in terms of, like, defining acoustic jazz is the only real jazz. I mean, I'm simplifying. But, I mean, there was a lot of controversy with that, which, just, you know, just, you know, made the story even more interesting, I think, to people. Right, right. I mean, this was a time where, yeah, you could look at Branford playing electronic, you know, or like funky jazz and Winton kind of not being into that style of music. And then there could be a kind of a narrative of us, like these two brothers, oh, they differ

in their philosophy. And that was some drama that people could get into, which feels kind of quaint given today's standards. But it was definitely a thing. I mean, I remember even from when I was young. Yeah. And I mean, also, I mean, like that next year he came back. and played with his quintet at Powell Hall,

just a jazz show. And that was the first time. And he had Kenny Kirkland on piano. Charonette Moffitt on bass. Yeah, Jeff. Tane, I'm guessing. On drums. Charonette Moffitt was like 17 or 18 years old.

Good God, yeah. And Kenny Kirkland and Brantford, you know. And then the next year when he came back, he had a different band because Sting came and kind of swooped up Kenny Kirkland and Brandford. And kind of what you alluded to, there was a little bit of a interoper. family feud between Winton and Brantford

for them, you know, he described it very much as his brother and them selling out. I mean, he used those words. He's like, they're selling out to the music and stuff. Yeah, it's interesting to think about Winton being this incredibly generous sort of

vanguard of jazz education, which he very much was when he also has, you know, later, it's slightly, like a reputation of being kind of conservative. And he is, but he was out there. You know, I know people who have had similar experiences with him. So I grew up actually in Bloomington, Indiana, like on campus at IU. David Baker is like kind of a similar kind of figure in the world of education, and I'm very

familiar with what you're talking about. Some listeners might not know this like Midwestern jazz scene. And actually, I think people still think of New Orleans and New York as being the kind of two like central points of jazz in America. And don't realize that Chicago and Missouri, you know, Kansas City and St. Louis were just as important. I mean, Chicago, was probably more important. It was maybe the most important city for jazz. And once you've kind of learned the actual history of jazz and seen the way the music kind of moved

through the country, it starts to make more sense how somewhere like St. Louis, you know, you could land there and suddenly be in the middle of just this huge world of jazz. And there was all this innovation going on in jazz education specifically. Like what Dave Baker was doing at IU was really groundbreaking, the way

that he was kind of codifying and learning, how to kind of build a pedagogy, I guess, around bebop and how to teach beb vocabulary. That wasn't really something anyone had tried before. And there were a lot of people in that, in that area doing that. Yeah, I mean, David Baker, I got a chance to meet him when I was in high school. What a guy, one of the coolest guys. Really? Yeah. And I actually did a summer program at IU when I was in high school one year. And so studying classical with Manahum Presler. It was incredible. Yeah, yeah. Okay, nice. But I went over and met David. David Baker and he was so kind and we even played some in his, you know, famous office and stuff.

And he was just like, hey, if you end up coming to IU, let me know. And, you know, the whole thing, which is probably a mistake that I didn't, I did audition on classical there. And it was one of those plays. Like when I graduated high school in the 1987, there were not a lot. There was Berkeley. There was Indiana. I mean, like real jazz programs. And I would say Indiana's was actually way more real than Berkeley's at that time.

Yeah. And then a smattering of other things But like Julia, where I ended up going, they had no jazz. They had a couple people secretly playing jazz And it was New York City, but they had nothing. So I kind of missed that I mean, now it's like so many choices.

Miami, I guess Miami was already happening by that time. Yeah, and by the 80, late 80s, 90s, that was really when it was kind of picking up like the early 90s. It had, it was a very different program than when I went there. So I graduated high school like almost exactly 10 years after years. So in 99. and then went to Miami right through the turn of the century. And it was, I mean, it's a great program.

It was very different, I think, in the late 80s and 90s. It was like a little more intense. I think there was more cocaine there. And it was also just like a little more studio music focused. Yeah, man, it was Miami in the 80s. But it was starting out, and they were definitely very influenced by Indiana. Like Witt Sidener, who, one of the big guys there, he was an IU guy, which I actually didn't even know when I went there and only found out later that Witt was like in the band of IU.

So you can see how people like David Baker and Jerry Coker, who I know was, I think was directing the band that Whit played in when he was at IU, kind of influenced the whole world of jazz education because their graduates then went on to run programs all around the country. And really quickly we have now this huge ecosystem where like, I mean, there are a ton of universities with really, you know, killer programs. I mean, I would say probably like there's three people that pop to mind, two of which we've already talked. about that are probably the most influential and arguably important jazz educators of all time definitely David Baker no doubt winton you know through his you know his institutional stuff at Juilliard later but all the just informal stuff that he continues to do with inspiring kids and teaching um and Barry Harris you know Barry Harris like just in terms of like the most probably you know identifiable uh system like like he's the ultimate like the

Barry Harris system, which to be honest, I don't even totally understand it myself. I'm ashamed to say. Yeah, I've never spent a long time with it. I'm familiar with it. But it's like one of those things. It's like that DaVinci code thing. It's like once you, it's like a cipher of jazz piano, you know. And once you get it, people just are like, you know, you talk about a cult, but a beautiful cult. Barry Harris and the same thing. Like he taught a lot of people and then they're continuing his thing on after he's even passed. So can I throw a fourth name out there? Jamie Abrasol. possibly as influential as those three? Absolutely. One, two, one, two, three, four. I mean, I went to a Jamie Evers. I had like, I won Allstate something, all state soloist or something. I got a scholarship to go to J. Brousal's camp in, actually, Bloomington, Illinois.

Confusingly enough. But yeah, I mean, he was, yeah, he was hugely influential. Yeah, he kind of, so to anyone who doesn't know, Jamie Brissauld was at the forefront of play-along CDs, among other things. That's what he was best known for in the 90s, was he would buy, you know, All Bird, that was one of the ones that I loved, or the Sunny Rollins one. He would get great players, I think like Ron Carter's playing bass on the Sunny Rollins or maybe the Bird one. Yeah, he gets always the top guy.

So he would get a top band, and they would record kind of just a small group playing, you know, whatever, some tune, and then just cut out the soloist and you'd get the rhythm section, and they'd buy it on CD or on tape or, I guess, vinyl back in the, the day and then you had something that you could practice with. This was before the internet, you know, gave us thousands of options like that. So it was a really big deal for people like me to just, when I was a kid, to just practice with. But in addition to that, he also ran these large programs. Yeah, I went to his, he, I think he was doing one in Missouri when I went, one of his summer programs. And it was huge. He would, you know, have you ever taught at one

of those? I feel like you would, you could totally be a guest artist at one of those. I never have. But I was really, I was just remember back to that one week program I did. I met Pat LaBar Barbara, who was, like, teaching my ensemble. It kind of changed my, he, like, just showed me one thing, and I was like, damn, you know. It was a cool place. Adam Nussbaum, I first met him there. Yeah, man. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Real New York players, you know, like out in the sticks in Illinois. It was fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was a big deal. And kind of, yeah, part of that, I think I was called them the Midwestern Jazz Mafia, the kind of the Abersal players who would show up at those summer camps. So, all right, yeah, let's get into, like, you are, you are. have gone to Juilliard, as you mentioned. It was a classical program. And out of that, pretty

quickly, it sounds like you were playing with Roy. I guess what was the sort of the story of that, like going from school to playing with Roy Hargrove? And just how was that experience? Yeah. So I went, I mean, I was really, I was at Julia for three semesters, full disclosure. Although it's one of these funny schools. They send you, even if you're just barely there, they treat you like an alumni, because I think so many people left early. It's like Berkeley. Birthday is the same way. It's like, yeah. Didn't Roy Hartgar?

I'd like go to Berkeley for like a year or something. They sent me all the alumni magazine. Of course they do. That's so funny. But I was there. But I mean, it was really about I wanted to go to New York, you know, and I just, I couldn't get organized enough or I didn't know. There weren't a lot of actually good jazz programs in New York. And because I got a scholarship of Juilliard, it was kind of like, yeah, you do that for classical.

But it was a little bit of tough place because I really decided I want to play jazz by then. And my teacher at Julia, I was like, I heard you play jazz. You cannot be in my studio if you're practicing. Oh, it's one of those. Oh, no. 18, night? What's going on? Wow.

But anyway, I got to meet a bunch of musicians just, I used to go downtown. And I met like Larry Goldings the first week I was in New York. There was a whole scene that that year, because the new school had just started, like the new school jazz program. It was like literally either the first or second year. And I had a couple friends from St. Louis that I knew that were going there, Mike Wilner and Dave Berger. And so I would go down, I met Larry Goldings, I met Jeff Keiser around that time, just a bunch of really...

Yeah, sure. Yeah, and I already met Roy. Roy wasn't actually in New York yet, which was crazy. I think that was the year he was at Berkeley. But then he was in New York the very next year. And just, you know, Greg Hutchinson, I met him the very first week I was in New York. He's from New York. He was actually still in high school that year, but was like playing Europe chores and stuff already.

And so it was a really exciting time. and kind of the beginning of that jazz lions thing that they called, you know. Yeah, the young lions of the 90s. Yeah, yeah. So this was like 88, 89. But then I didn't really, I didn't actually play with, I played a few things with Roy,

but I didn't play in his band until 94. Okay. In the meantime, I had kind of a detour. I ended up moving to New Orleans, which ended up being, it was a little bit on a whim. I had some friends down there, and there was a trumpet player named Marlon Jordan,

who was like really being hyped up actually as sort of the next win. It was like Roy Hargrove, I think, had just gotten a deal on like Verve records. I mean, it was crazy. Like, young players were like... Yeah, it was a different world. We're getting like big.

I mean, big. They weren't like, you know, it wasn't Taylor Swift. It was... Sure. I mean, it was like real record deals and, you know, CDs had really gotten established.

So they was like this new... Everybody was having to replace their LPs. So it was like a lot of money and it was pre-streaming and Napster and all that. So, yeah, Marlene Jordan was from New Orleans. So he brought me down there to do some gigs. I met some musicians.

And I was like, man, I loved the scene down here. So I ended up staying there. And, I mean, I really lived in New Orleans from 90 through 2005. Oh, wow, really? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yes. I mean, I went and stayed and spent a lot of time in New York during that time, but I was really down there.

I mean, I ended up getting married and having started a family and stuff. All my kids were born in New Orleans. they're all over. So New York, St. Louis, and New Orleans. Have you lived in Chicago? You've almost got all the four major jazz music or Kansas City. My daughter lives in Chicago. So I know Chicago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, New Orleans really became my, my real, like, finishing jazz school, you know. Like, I got a chance there. I met Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas. Well, Chris Thomas, I knew since we were in middle school in St. Louis. He was my friend. I've been playing with him. And then we ended up playing with Josh Redmond together.

But I met Brian in 90, maybe even at the end of 89. He was going to Loyola School. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. And this is for listeners, drummer Brian Blade and bassist, Christopher Thomas. Yeah, who played in the Joshua Redmond Quintet with you. Right. And then Brian, they just started a jazz program at UNO.

And Brian transferred over there. But then he was starting to get some gig. We all were kind of getting some gigs here and there. but the cool thing was we were, there was gigs in New Orleans during that time, like good gigs. Victor Goans, who's a great saxophonist,

um, started hiring us to do gigs, Jermaine Bazzo, wonderful singer. We played at Snugg Harbor. We did trio gigs. Um, and that actual trio of Brian,

Chris and myself became kind of like my, man, because they were like my best friends. And we would, we would just get together and rehearse every day, even if we didn't have a gig. We'd go get coffee,

play chess and then like make arrangements. And we all love the same kind of music. sit and listen to records. And so, like, that was such a beautiful period that early 90s in New Orleans, a lot of really great players. Do you think that, so some of that is surely just because you're young,

you don't have a lot of, you know, a lot of requirements on your life. It's a little easier to play together. But also, you're describing a world that does not exist. Like, a world where there's enough work to support this kind of mid-tier economy of jazz, where, you know, you mentioned Taylor Swift, now the music industry, right?

you're either making literal billions of dollars or there's just not very many gigs and not much work. Do you think that just the fact that there was so much work made it possible for you guys to play together? It just seems like that would be such an essential part of building the kind of tightness that you had. Because that rhythm section, I mean, I'm sure I'm playing some examples of you guys, but you guys were absurdly tight. Like you had clearly just lived music together for so long to have that level of connection. Yeah. I mean, it was, it's kind of what you're saying. It was just sort of like luck of the time of us finding each other.

And then, yeah, being able to play together a lot in different kind of situations. We were doing like traditional New Orleans gigs, modern stuff, funk stuff. We would sort of have our trio vibe when we could. A lot of playing with Jermaine Basil, so getting to play with a great singer where you got to like change keys and all this weird stuff. And yeah, I think the economics of it, I think we forget about or we take that for granted, you know. And it was a time, I mean, it was like, we were just doing $100 gigs, but the thing is, like, those gigs are still $100 gigs. It's like, but $100 was, you know, that's what's crazy about it. Yeah. It's like the gig. So at that time, that was a pretty good gig, you know. And we were, and then we were also starting to do some touring. Even before, like, the Roy and the Joshua thing, like we were, like in 91, I got a chance to play with Betty Carter.

Who was, that really was like my graduate school. You know, like that was, that's when I really started to like, oh, all the stuff I should have learned or I think I know. Now you're in the big time, you know, because she was, she was legend status by that point. And she was also kind of, you know, she had been on the Tonight Show and she had this record that the poster for it was in one of the kids' walls on the Cosby show in like the late 80s. Betty Carter, you'd see it like every, I mean, like she was a thing then. that was very rare in jazz. And so when I got a chance to do that gig, I was 20 years old, but I was just like, oh, my God, this is Betty Carter.

And so I was living in New Orleans, and she'd always kind of had a requirement that you, everybody would always live in New York, you know, her groups. And so I kind of just didn't talk about it a lot, and I'd stay with Greg, Greg in Brooklyn, and, you know, I'd stay in his apartment. And then we were on the road that whole year anyway, so it didn't really matter where I was living.

But, like, that was just crazy. Like what I learned and like we're playing big fat we did a seven week tour I mean talk about stuff that doesn't happen anymore We did a yes it was my first European tour ever first time going to Europe A seven week tour and I mean like hitting almost every night and like trains and and and like you know random flights like wait which airport are we I mean paper itinerary paper to everything It was great it was great and you know That was probably the biggest amount of growth that that I've ever had. But then I came back to New Orleans and was like playing with Brian and Chris again and like doing this stuff.

And like we're bringing all these different things that we learned back. So it was it was really just a perfect storm for me in terms of like just growth and joy in my life. Yeah, I can imagine. That sounds great. I mean, especially given that you were playing for, you know, audiences playing real jazz for audiences. Yeah. Some, you know, guys I went to school with, so I went to school in Miami, right? And the cruise ships would run out of there. So a very common thing to do would be over the summer, you'd get your piano trio a gig on like a carnival cruise.

And that was a way to have what you're describing, you know, a like eight-week tour, essentially. You're playing every night, but you're on a cruise ship. You're kind of playing for people who maybe aren't that interested. So it's like it's not quite as much fun. But it is kind of the way that a group, especially a jazz group, can kind of build that chemistry and learn how to play together. And I'm sure the amount of learning that you do is just totally. wild. It's, yeah, I don't know. What do you think about the fact that it's so difficult for young players now to have the same experience? Well, I mean, you know, it's, I don't like it, but I'm also like you can't turn time back. It's kind of like what I do want to have is for young players. And maybe they're doing this more than I realize is to find their version of that for today. You know what I mean? Because everything is is different. And that's not always.

a bad thing. I mean, we look back on those days as being like, I mean, there was a lot of problems in it too and a lot of like, there was a lot of like gatekeeping in a way that I think the younger musicians now are so much better about, you know, overcoming and not just musical, just like, and we was such a good old boys network, you know, and so I think a lot of things are better. But I mean, in terms of like the core elements, it's beyond just, like what we had was not just a chance to play together, but we would hang together. We'd listen to music together. I think that's why your podcast and hopefully ours and these other kind of musical geekery podcasts, I think, are so important. Because for a lot of people, that's their, for younger people and for older people.

That's their version of what we used to have, just hanging around and listening to music and talking about, wait, what was that chord he played? Man, that felt great. Really? I love the way it segues to this or listen to the way they mic the drum, whatever it is. Like, we would do all that. And it's like that communal cultural attenuation to the music is so important. And so a lot of times people like, well, everybody's so separate in social media. And it's like, yeah, but that's going to be hard to put this genie back in the bottle.

So it's like, how do we use the podcast? How do you use Instagram? It's like, yeah, kids don't have as many, young people don't have as many of these communal maybe performance or touring opportunities. but they also have the ability to like DM Robert Glasper and he might answer you back, you know what I mean? Like I had to wait for- No, yeah, for sure. Kenny Kirkland once a year to come through town

and maybe I could get his phone number and see if he'd answer the number. But I mean, like the communication stuff actually should be and is better, but it's just everybody's still trying to figure out how to harness it and how to work through just the cacophony of information being thrown everywhere, you know? Like we had that advantage of like, listening to one record, you know, just over and over again.

The sheer volume is definitely difficult, and that's, you know, true across the board with, like, every type of media now. But it is true. I mean, it's very easy to look back at what you're describing, you know, this heyday in the 90s and what was clearly like a really amazing time in a lot of ways for you personally, too, and just be like, ah, that was the best, because it does sound like it was pretty great. But it's a, it's a very great. But it's good to look at that and kind of try to understand what was good about it and how to transpose that onto the world we now live in. Because yeah, like you can't change the way things are. We can't rebuild the whatever economy of compact discs in 2025. It's just not going to happen. And so it's

more about thinking through what it was special about what we were doing. Because I completely agree with you. And I think you'll hear it your show really does something very similar to strong songs in trying to, you know, get back to that feeling. Because I, you know, I learned just as much when I was in school sitting around with the guys I was in school with listening to records and talking about them as I did in class. And I learned a lot in class. It was a great school. It's just I learned a ton from that experience.

For sure. And, yeah, there are ways. There are ways you can have that experience now. Yeah, because, like, we look back and it's like, oh, you know, I met Winton, then I met Kenny Kirkland. He showed me these things. Like, that was great. But what's even better is if Kenny Kirkland.

you know, R. IP, Kenny Kirkland, but if he was still around to do a podcast breaking this stuff down, then every young pianist that's interested

could hear that. They don't just have to be lucky like me and my dad happens to know Witten because they work together. You know, it's like... Right. Or like you happen to live

in Bloomington, Indiana or St. Louis. Like you happen to live somewhere that people come through. You could live in whatever, you know, rural Nebraska or somewhere just a long ways out and still be able to,

through the internet, get access to that, which is, you know, pretty awesome. Yep, for sure. So our, Right, so you play with Roy, you play with Joshua. I guess we can kind of conclude on this part, because this is like the, this is just like peak 90s jazz. This is when, I mean, this is the stuff

that I, when I was a teenager, was listening to and was just knocking me out. It was like the hottest new players. Joshua Redmond, who I've talked about on the show plenty of times, one of the most exciting sax players I've ever heard. I just like, love his playing so much personality. That group, that quintet that you had with him was just so much fun. And yeah, I'd just love to hear any, I guess any additional thoughts on this period, on the kind of transition and just what it was like playing in that group it was great i mean i had you know i did the betty carter then we did a thing called jazz futures which was the same trio me chris and brian right right but then with uh nicholas peyton we were working that's another one i should mention in new

orleans yeah i was i thought you played with nicholas peyton he was a big part he's a couple years younger so like when we first started playing with him we were like 20 and he was in high school still oh wow and this is of course for listeners nicholas peyton a great jazz trumpeter who uh out of new orleans really just another great player of the same sort of time period. Yeah. And then I started playing with Roy in 93, end of 93 and all through 94, and that was a beautiful. I like, that was not with the same rhythm. That was not with Chris and Brian.

That was at Rodney Whitaker and Greg Hutchinson, who I kind of reunited with from playing with Betty Carter and meeting. Yeah, man, you sent me this video. I'll be playing a clip from this right now, this live performance in Germany with both Ron Blake and Josh Redmond on tenor sax along with Roy on trumpet and that rhythm section. just absolutely killing. What a performance. Well, and actually that gig, or one of the gigs that same week, I was playing with Roy then,

and oh yeah, and Ron Blake was on side. Like, that's probably, I mean, this is not to dismay. Like, that was the most exciting, like, jazz group I have ever played with. Redmond's solo, he just goes and goes. At one point, he kind of stops. It's this amazing moment where he slows down, and he's still playing his solo, but he just doesn't build it the whole way.

He kind of stops. He takes some time, he leaves some space, builds it back up. Man, I mean, he was what? He was pretty young at that time. And he has like a full head of hair. It's funny to see him. And he just, man, he sounds good.

And yeah, Ron Blake sounds brilliant as well. What a group. And that was right. That kind of was the reason, I mean, I actually knew Joshua for a while. In fact, Josh came down to New Orleans a couple times and played with us. So we all kind of knew each other.

But when I was playing with Roy, that summer that summer of 94, Joshua did a couple of guest things like whatever that gig was and we sort of started talking and he knew about me and Chris and Brian Blade was already playing with Joshua then and Brad Meldow was on piano in his band

Right and this is like right around So Redmond won the Thelonius Monk competition Which you also won right this is And that was kind of a big in the 90s especially Like a big kind of coronation I guess for up and coming jazz players Weird ridiculous like that's a part that I don't think was great I didn't win it yeah Joshua did win I came in third or second.

I think I came in second. Oh, okay. Yeah. Jackie Tereson. Not that I'm bitter about it. Came in first. Yeah. I remember people made a big deal out of this thing.

It was such a big deal. Or the Thelonius Monk competition. It was big because it basically came with like a major record contract. Right. That's right. An agent and all the things now that you don't kind of don't need in a way. That's, yeah. It's a whole other thing.

But yeah. It was a big deal then. And but yeah. So this was a couple years after that, I think, but not many. Okay. And like Josh, he had, Wish had come out, which was huge with Papadini. And that has Meldow on it, right? Exactly.

Uh, no. Yeah. I think, no. I think it's, no, the next record, Mood Swing has Brett. Oh, yeah, Mood Swing has Meldon. And this is that year, 94, when like Mood Swoon was really big. Great record. Yeah, fantastic stuff.

And so I'd been talking to Josh, and he kind of started calling me and was like, hey, I'm thinking about maybe making a change. He's like, Brad, I don't know. You know, like, might be doing something. Bladadale, he kind of sucks. I don't know. He can't really. This can't really play.

Yeah. I think I'm going to fire him. I mean, and I'd known Brad for a long time. We're like exactly the same age. And like I've always been a big fan and stuff. But I was so happy in Roy's band. Like I was kind of like, but then so Josh sort of started, it became a little bit more of like, well, maybe I might make a change on bass too. What if it was like Chris Thomas on bass, you on piano?

And of course, if Brian will stay, Brian. And so then I was kind of like, wow, that sounds interesting, you know. and we were still playing together a lot in New Orleans whenever I was home and they were doing some other things so it just by 95 kind of the beginning of 95 it just sort of became inevitable and when Brad left Josh hit me up and that was like the hardest decision ever to leave Roy

and I only played with him for a year so I really felt like it was unfinished business and so when I look back on that I'm like was that a mistake I don't know but it was a great situation to go in with Josh and I think that was the time when he really felt like he'd sort of figure some things out from his first couple of bands. And, like, when he had Pat Mathini with him, that was more, I mean, it's Pat Mathini.

It's not really like, you know, right. But I think he was kind of like, I want to, you know, he had some different ideas about music and stuff. And so we started like, I think February, March of 95 and like went straight through. I mean, he had so many, I thought I had toured heavy that year before before. But this was just like constant, constant. It was fun. I mean, we were doing bus, like, I don't want to say rock star bus.

That's what we were star bus. Whatever. But a tour bus. you know, for a jazz tour, which is not nothing. Exactly. But then we did it so much. I was telling something younger, but they were like, what? A tour bus on it? I was like, yeah, in the 90s, we did that all the time. Nineties were crazy, man. We were playing so much. It was probably saving the money

because it was like, day, one night or one night or one, you know, just college gigs, clubs. So it was fun. And I love that group. It was quartet, I think, for the first year or maybe two years. And then he added Peter Bernstein, who on guitar, which was great. We were all big fans of his and friends. Yeah, and really opened things up. in the arrangements too. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, it's funny. You mentioned my episode about So What and about Kind of Blue. You talking about this trio that you had with Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas, it makes me think of Witten Kelly's trio, like of the idea of a jazz piano trio being the core of other groups, but like working as a trio together, which just seems like it's this really important element that's easy to forget about when you're looking at liner notes and who's playing on which record. Like the trio being its own little identity.

It just seems very, very crucial for a band having a sound like you guys did. Yeah, and I think for Josh, it was, I mean, one's memory or the perception of one's memory from that time is always a little funky because it's been for 30 years. But I think my impression with him was always like, he liked that he was getting this ready made rhythm section where we had all this rapport. But he was also a little bit like, hold on now, like, this is my band. And how do I keep this from getting out of control because it's three against one kind of thing. I feel like his musical relationship with Brian Blade especially was so locked in.

I mean, the way that they played together. For me as a listener, especially when I was young and first hearing you guys, I didn't know that about the rhythm section. And I always really gravitated to that musical relationship between Brian and Joshua. Yeah, he was totally the bridge, not only in terms of he's...

So the band before was Brad Meldow, Christian McBride on bass. and Josh and Brian And so like Brian was the bridge between that But also like I really like took that serious Like when he called me to do it And that was when mood swing is still out Like I studied that record

I learned all the tune in my ear And like I really checked out the way Brad was playing But I also was like Okay I want to bring my own thing And Josh always wanted that He's like I don't want to do this stuff No yeah sure You know

Although he kind of did You know it's always like You kind of want to do it But you want to see what else And I think we did a good job Of like bringing And like what a rhythm section that has years of, you know, personal and, you know, professional on-stage

rapport, I think Josh was smart, you know, like, I think he saw an opportunity to, like, and then really helped to organize things in a way where we were playing stuff that we had never really played. I mean, it wasn't that big of a departure, but like, Josh has always been, I think, a fantastic and, and a little bit underrated as a composer. I think he's one of our generation best jazz composers. I completely agree. Just having transcribed and learned a bunch of his songs, a great writer. The interesting sense for melody. I've been listening to some of those old records,

and I remember every single melody, cold, even if it's a song I haven't listened to in a long time, just because the melodies are so unusual and beautiful. And, of course, yeah, as harmony is great stuff. But we're going to talk about some music and make some recommendations. We're going to talk a little bit about Kenny Kirkland. Before that, though, I want to ask you a little bit more about Open Studio, just because we've been talking about teaching jazz.

This is this major thing that you've launched. I guess first, could you just give listeners a kind of backstory? I know some will be familiar. I know some take courses with you guys, but some will not be. So maybe just give a little bit of a nutshell of what Open Studio is. Sure. Yeah, we're a jazz community for folks that want to learn how to become better players. But I think what it's really become is more like, how do you live a musical life as no matter what your level, no matter what your age, no matter what your ambition level.

but just like kind of having this connection of jazz or jazz adjacent. Oh my God, I never thought I'd use that word there. But I mean just like jazz and like the harmonies that jazz represent, just like wanting to be creative with your development as a player. And we really have folks, you know, all the way up into their 90s. We have some younger folks, but we mainly serve people that are like, hey, I'm just getting back to my instrument. Like I retired early or I have some time on the weekends or I just

I don't know what to practice and I don't have access to a teacher, but I don't want to just sit around watching YouTube videos and I get lost or whatever. So this is not like Berkeley School of Music Online. This is not how do you get to the Village Vanguard in the next year and a half week guarantee or your money back. This is really about like how do you just get a little bit better, sometimes some big jumps ahead, but kind of know how to practice, know how to take living a musical life with your instrument every day. like enjoying the journey. It's very much like, you know, I've gotten into marathon running over the last like five years, sort of later in life.

And it's like, how do you enjoy the training each week? What's the training plan? And then hopefully so that you can have a great marathon day, but also so that even if the marathon gets canceled, you're like, man, I'm so glad I went through this, when's the next one, you know? Oh, man.

Have you read Dave Liebman's book, self-ported of a jazz musician? Do you know that book? Leibman is, he's a long-distance runner. He made this crazy album. This is Leibman, the saxophone player, who was actually a big influence on me in a number of ways when I was young. I had a very important conversation with him. I think I've talked about it on the show.

He has this album called The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner that I always found fascinating, especially when I was younger. It's a lot of like overdubbed soprano sax stuff. There's actually a cool version of it that he did live where he reads a bit of an intro for like the concept of the piece. As I imagined what a marathon runner must endure, it seemed like the perfect metaphor. for the journey of an artist. Upon further thought, I realized that artists are not alone in experiencing life's journey, but they do articulate the voyage for all mankind to see,

hear, and reflect upon. But in the final result, the long-distance runner is all of us. His book, Self-Whorter of a Jazz musician, is like a very interesting and marathon-informed, look at jazz. So it's just interesting that you mentioned that. But that totally makes sense, like, that that kind of mentality,

that long-paced mentality could change how you think about jazz. And man, I mean, I got to say, I love that approach. Like, I love the way that you describe it and what it looks like Open Studio does. And it stands in such contrast, I think, to the way that I learned jazz.

And I think the way that a lot of people learn jazz in the 90s, you mentioned gatekeeping earlier. It's like there was this turbo charged feeling of exclusiveness. Like, it was so about the, like, meritocracy, about auditioning and, like, cutting other players and the best player gets to be in the band. And there was so much, like, talking smack about other players and kind of, you know, just a lot of competitiveness.

It was very male. It was very aggressive. And that is just, I feel like so many musicians now who, or jazz musicians who've reached middle age, have kind of rejected that and said, you know, so many people could play this music or love this music. or learn to appreciate it and have it be part of their life, you know, live a musical life without needing to play at the village vanguard, without needing to take this incredibly intense approach.

And actually by dropping that approach, you open the door to so many more people, you know, loving the music and making it a part of their life. So it's interesting to hear that marathon running was the thing that got you there. Was there anything else? Like, I don't know, any other experiences? Yeah, I mean, the marathon run was more about, like, I was already well into doing Open Studio when I got on that,

It helped clarify. Like, I think when I started this, it was really just about, like, I'm going to pass on information that I learned that I was taught from other players or on the bandstand or from records or whatever, mostly stuff that, like, it was nothing I invented. It was more like, I knew how to teach it. But it would really just be like showing. It was very, not very, but it was generally intermediate to advance jazz piano stuff. It's like, this is the way you can play Misty. I'm using this five-no voicing. If you put the sixth here, it'll sound like this.

just showing it in a way so that if somebody could play pretty good, it was super useful for those lessons. Because it's like just having somebody that's a pro player just sit there and show you, you know, how to do it. And so I always thought, well, that's what this will be. And then I'll add other instruments and all this. And then it turned out like all the people that wanted me to teach them in that way, I got pretty quickly.

And that's kind of a small. Because there's not that many of them. There's relatively few of them. Yeah. And so like I kind of got, I learned how to get comfortable on the can. camera and like how to make videos and how to like it's weird when you're teaching not directly to somebody but you know that they're going to be there so it took me some time sets and reps on that and so this is also something that adam is really great adam manis who does a lot of because i taught

him everything he knows so of course no yeah he's fantastic he is he is really good at that like talking to you like you're there you know even though he's just talking to a camera oh hi there i'm musician and middle aged influencer adam manis today i want to talk to you about approach chords. Why do approach chords matter? Well, we want to have several ways to approach important chords in our progression. Yeah, and it's kind of the kind of thing you just have to do a bunch, or at least for me, to get that. Oh, yeah, sure. But then when I started realizing, I was like, wow, there's so many more people. Well, there's a lot of people like what you're describing, people that got gate kept out in the 90s or 80s that are coming back now and being like, oh, wow, I want to connect

with the music. I've given up my dream. Like, actually, the dream of getting. to the Village Vanguard is not that important. I just want to learn how to play B-Bibok. That'd be, to the best of my abilities. And so that's what, for me, the running has been about. Like, it's not about, yeah, I mean, sometimes I'll think, oh, this would be cool to do this time goal. But it's not, I'm not rating myself in relation to other people.

It's all about me and my journey. And also a community of supportive other runners, you know. And so when I started looking at Open Studio, I was like, this is not just about, yes, we'll give the specific training on these tunes, but it's also about the beginner level. It's about you haven't played your instrument for a while. Is there still a place for you in the music? Absolutely.

You're kind of a folk singer-songwriter on guitar, and you're interested in jazz because you want to learn upper extension stuff. But we're not going to keep you out because you're not like, West Montgomery or nothing, but, you know, it's like, no, let's talk about those things. And so when we started to be more inclusive with that, and Adam has been huge for me because he's always kind of come from more of a multi-genre approach. He's very much a jazz pianist, but he's always had more, like, I came up, like, all the great things from what we talked about, but also all the bad things as far as, like, swing out, you're not, you know. And so that, that, I mean, I'd been opening up over the years anyway, but Adam was huge once I brought him into the fold.

And so now we just kind of let the community direct us in terms of, like, what their needs are and try to create programs and courses, and we do a lot of live classes now. I mean, we've got people in 124 countries, active members. Which is crazy, but it makes sense because the music is global. It's a global language, you know. Do you find space for getting people together to play? I would imagine that's the hardest thing about teaching jazz online, right, is that it is a music that you make together. Like, it has to be made in the moment in space. But as you grow, I would imagine it's more and more possible to have meetups or for people to get together and play with one another. Yeah, and we've been having a bunch of spontaneous meetup among the members, and now we're kind of trying to help organize that.

And, you know, we've got a community area of our site called The Hang, very unimaginatively titled. But I think it's accurate. It's back to those days where people can connect and message and, like, propose different things. And, like, we're starting to get a lot more of that. And in fact, we have some in real life events that we're organizing ourselves for next year. And so that's kind of the next frontier. We've had folks here, too, at the studio members that have come in and to do different programs. I mean, that's the hardest part.

Like, the beautiful part is connecting people. from 124 countries potentially. Just like that, you know? The hardest part then is like how do you connect them? Certain places like London, New York, Los Angeles. Like we have some places where we have a lot of members. Right. So it's been easier for that to start happening.

But I foresee more of that in-person stuff in the future. That's really cool. Yeah, it just seems like a pretty amazing thing. And it's cool to hear how I got started and how it's grown. Yeah. Let's talk about some music. So I always ask for music recommendations. And I know we wanted to talk a little bit about Kenny Kirkland, who's come up a few times,

the late great Kenny Kirkland jazz pianist extraordinaire who played with a number of people. I first heard him playing with Kenny Garrett, but I think you heard him earlier. So let's start with Kenny. What is your background with Kenny Kirkland? Well, Kenny was really the first jazz pianist that I heard in person and on record around the same time. Oh, wow. that I was like, oh my God, I want to do that. I want to be that.

I want to be him, whatever him is, you know, that I was just like transported. Like, it's that weird combination of like awe and inspiration. And like, I could never do that, but wait, wait, if I could. You know, it's just that it's inspired, you know. Now, I mean, I'd heard Herbie Hancock and McCoy, I'd even got into McCoy a little. Like, there was like legends, but like Kenny Kirkland, because I saw him live. Like, that was such a great thing. in 1985 he was playing with went marcellus and i was 14 and like it just hit me at that right time

and i got a chance to meet him well i just went up to him after the show oh that's another thing young people have to get back to doing that like everybody's like oh i'll just wait and DM and like no you go meet the position like that go say hi like people are generally very nice they'll talk to you yeah i mean i remember it used to be so many more young people would come up to us after shows and now it's like i'll be going up to them i'll be like hey how you doing and they're like uh Right. That's so funny. But I went up and met him and he was so, I mean, look, there's always the risk that they're going to be an asshole. That's, that's a, yeah.

But that's always been there, you know. And always, and the exception, not the rule. Exactly. Generally speaking, guys are usually pretty chill. Yeah. But Kenny was so great. I mean, he was just like, hey, you know, just, he had a warmth about him. And I was just, you know, I just heard him play all this incredible stuff.

And he was like, let's keep in touch. And then the next time I saw him, he remembered me, which is like, when you're a 14, 15 year old kid, that's, like everything he's like Peter right I was like what and so he just really was like he never did anything huge like give me any secret scrolls or anything but he just was kind and like what was it was never like you need to do that like Wint was more like have you been practicing on that thing I told you that you know he was way more laid back you know he'd answer anything I'd ask him but he was never going to be like but I mean I just connected with his playing like on record and then when I heard him and like always was like there was something about his his style

that just like really became the foundation of a lot of the things I played. I mean, I'm probably not the most like, I mean, you can hear as playing in my playing, but I think because I have a lot of influences, it's not as obvious as some people. Like Joey Calderazzo, I think is the ultimate like Kenny Kirkland disciple. He studies and stuff. He can play just like. I mean, he has an amazing player and, of course, has his own time. Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, played with Brantford for all these years. So, like, he fits into that role. of some things that Kenny did. So for me it's not as much about that, but just his joy, his approach to articulation, his dance, you know, his swing feel so particular and like so, it's so funk-infused. Like when he's swinging,

there's such like a kind of backbeat undertone to it. Really exciting stuff. Yeah, it's funny. I had a similar, actually, experience to what you described, seeing Kenny Kirkland, seeing Kenny Garrett, he came to my high school in Bloomington. This is when he was playing with Chris Dave,

and I can't remember who the piano player was. It was post-Kennie, but it was around that songbook era, like late. It was maybe 98, maybe a year after a songbook. And then going and listening to Songbook, and Kenny Kirkland plays on that record. And, man, I mean, sing a song of song, that song, that Kenny Garrett kind of pop song with the four chords.

It just knocked me out at the time. I just didn't really know that a straight-ahead jazz group could sound like that. And Kenny Kirkland's playing on that record. I mean, yeah, two down, one across, his solo on that, the way he sequences ideas, and something in his swing. It's not, he's not just like ratat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat. It's like, it has this kind of bounce to it. There's this kind of ebullient bounce. He kind of carries over top of the groove.

It's a hard thing to explain, and I'm not much of a pianist, so I've never transcribed him. But there is a joyfulness. I think that's a perfect way to describe the way that he plays. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, yeah, he has that bounce he has, it's personality. It's like he has his technique. He shaped it so well around his musical persona and bringing that out in everything that he plays. Even if it's something like very kind of somer,

there's that song on songbook, the beautiful ballad where he's playing the melody. You still feel, I mean, that's not like a swinging, bouncing thing, but you feel his way of like just bring tone out of the piano. An instrument that's hard to like personalize. you know what i mean yeah no it's true it's true makes it more remarkable when someone does you know bill evans like most famously but yeah and he was just such a cool guy to such a nice person it's such an interesting story really tragic you know about us losing him so young i know

yeah it's funny we're recording this right after d'angelo died and i like am increasingly just it's harder and harder every year to deal with these brilliant musicians who i grew up loving dying young it's it's really awful um so for uh For a pick for Kenny Kirkland, you also talked about Brother John, this Elvin Jones record, that I had actually never heard, and it was great. So I'll play a clip from it, but maybe talk a little bit about that. Well, this was like, after I met Kenny and heard him play in 85, I was like, went to the record store.

I've got to find everything this guy's played on. Nice. Which he hadn't played on. I mean, he had played on some stuff, but it was all, like, kind of not underground, but just like real insider New York stuff. But this is one of the records I found, or maybe the only one at that time. outside of Black Coats from the Underground, which came out a few months later.

I actually hadn't heard that yet, but I'd heard into it life. But yeah, this is, I mean, the great, the legend, Elvin Jones. It's a kind of quirky record, but like in the 80s, even go back to the late 70s, I think Palo Alto Records, there was a great gentleman whose name I'm forgetting now, who started that

and ran that record label. And even like, I think the first Diane Reeves record was he actually had her do a jazz record. I mean, like some really great stuff. And it was his studio, and I think he lived in Palo Alto. So that's why it was called Palo Alto. Kirk here as I'm editing the episode. And the founder of Palo Alto Records was named Jim Benham, who, yeah, founded it in 1981,

in Palo Alto, California. Yeah, Kenny Kirkland. Yeah, man, he's a great player. Well, let's just go through your other two music recommendations for listeners since we're coming to the end of the episode. And I want to give people even more things to listen to. So number two is a Roy Hargrove album that you guys just did an episode on of you'll hear it talking about this album. This is one of my favorite Roy Hargrove records. Yeah, Hardgrove.

So this is R.H. Factor, his first record with that R.H. Factor can be with that band. And, you know, it's top of my mind. There's a bunch of great Roy Hargrove. I mean, I came up with him. So it's, it's bittersweet. every time I think about him or hear his music because you know he died yeah what six years ago now way way too early and it's it's really I mean it's like one of those shocks in the jazz community especially for players around my age yeah and it's kind of a hole that is going to be I don't know

it's it's not going to be filled like because he was just such an influence and and then he was such an influence on this current generation the more I learn about that I mean he certainly influenced me but But I mean, he was like a year older than me. So it was more like we really came up together. And like I said, went and connected us back when we were in high school, actually. But this record, like, this was very much something that he had talked about doing, about doing like a crossover project, even back in like mid-90s when I was working with him. And we even experimented with some of the parliament, funkadelic stuff,

and the acoustic set up with that band. So he always had, this was not as big of a departure as I think a lot of people thought. It was like, oh, I'm doing all straight ahead stuff. and all of a sudden. But it was controversial at that time. But I just think he nailed it. And talking about DeAngelo, he's on this record. He does.

Yep. Let's stay. I'll stay. I'll stay. Yeah. Beautiful son. Beautiful, beautiful rendition. And this is really coming out of, I think, as much of Roy's upbringing and hip hop,

like that really being the pop music when we were coming up, which it was, a big part of it. and then obviously jazz funk fusion all the way from like weather report stuff to more like you know herbie hancock funk type of stuff to chikorea fusion um but i think an even bigger sort of immediate influence on this project was what the record he did that he was such a big part of voodoo of de angeles that i think a lot of well and this is like russell elvado right he produced r h factor and then all that neo soul stuff because like erika biddo is on this record common is on this record Like, it's a lot of the same musicians who were doing that stuff in New York. So it totally makes sense that there's that crossover.

Yeah. So he was very influenced by that. And it's mostly recorded the same studio, Electric Ladyland. Yeah, yeah. Man, I love this album. Yeah, I love Alstay, the DeAngelo song. Though I haven't listened to a lot of DeAngelo, just the last day. It makes me very sad, but it's nice to listen to his music.

And then Pastor T, actually, which is a kind of random track. It's just this, like, up-tempo funk song. I'm not much of a drummer, but I'm all right. And I turn that one up when I'm playing drums. And it makes me think that I'm as good as the record. Yeah. And that's such a killing song. I mean, I've heard it so many times because I like warm up on drums playing to it.

But yeah, I love, love this band. And I loved you guys' episode about it, too. People can definitely go check that out if they want to hear you and Adam talking about it. Yeah, it has one of the greatest, it's such a simple thing. But, like, that bored fade as it comes in, it's such a weird thing. Like the fact that it works so well, you know. It does, though. And, like, no one does that.

People do fade out still sometimes, but why not just have it? It's like already in motion. Here we go. That's probably a Russ Alvado thing. That was probably his idea. It's such a cool call. Yeah, that's, man, that is a great call. That's something I might steal just because no one does it, and it would sound,

and it sounds really cool. I mean, the timing of it is everything for that. That's like the hard, like, you got to, like, they probably just went back. Like, no, move it a little. Try it here. Yep, yeah, yeah. Well, because. Really that do that that that oh yeah man I can talk about it forever just it kind of lands right at the perfect moment of Roy's solo kicking it off

But yeah I love that I love that album and that band just totally rules Well, all right and so for number three you've got a classic that we we referenced earlier Yeah, so this is Miles Davis my funny Valentine live at the Philharmonic of course Lincoln Center a legendary concert Herbie Hancock piano George Coleman saxophone Totally Williams drums Ron Carter on bass Like this record, I think is, I mean, this is not like an insider pick at all. No. But it's also not like, this was a super influential record to me because this is like the first like stuff when I was like, oh my God, Herbie Hancock.

And I like tried to put every note on this record of his. So I know it really well. But you know it's like sometimes you study a record so much. You're like you just have like ear like fatigue from it. I think a lot of people get that with kind of blue, right? They've heard it so many times, studied it so much that then you have to kind of get out of your brain. and then you listen to it and you're like, oh, this is just a really good album. But this record for some reason, I've never, like, I love it.

Every day, every month. Like, it's never, I've never turned away from it even for a hot second. And I think it's so, I love live jazz records that are done well. The sound is great on it. Yeah. I mean, it's not perfect. It's a live record. It's not supposed to be perfect, you know.

And I think it's sort of Miles at his peak. You've got this young man. They were all pissed off with Miles. Yeah, that's the story. age, which is great, you know, that's fun. He was like, what, not paying them? He was like, this is going to be a charity gig. And they were like, well, dude, you're rich, and we're not.

You've got to pay us. Yeah, he rolled up in his, like, Lamborghini. I mean, his Ferrari, it was like, oh, you know, it's not paid. Let's go play. The story, and especially because Coleman just rips it apart on this. And then on Forre and More, which when I was coming up, Four and More, which is the kind of up-tempo, you know, B-Sides, I guess. It's the second release of the same concert, same band.

Coleman just tears it apart on Four and More. And it's funny thinking that he was just, really pissed and that was part of why he played so well with such fire. I'm sure Miles took credit for like, yeah, I was just trying to piss them off so they played. Oh, yeah, right, right. It's all mind games, these Machiavelli over here. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great record and a great pick. And one that, yeah, like I said, I listened to Forre and more, a little more coming up.

And just you picking this when I was, you know, prepping for this episode, I went back and listen to it. And man, what a record. That Stella by Starlight on this record. Maybe the best, it's one of my favorite versions of Celad by Starlight, now that I've been back listening to it. it's just a beautiful rendition. Yeah.

And yeah, really great, great record. And yeah, maybe not an inside pick, but one that everybody listening to this could stand to go listen to. Yeah, and I mean, if anybody wants to go on a deep kind of beautiful rabbit hole around that band, there was,

when I got a chance to interview and work with Ron Carter some, I remember asking about this, and like he had such clarity of that period. I was shocked that he would remember. Like, I'm trying to remember the 90s. I'm trying to remember my neighbor's name I'm trying to remember what happened to me yesterday.

Ron Carter remembers the bass on the certain gig. Oh, man. Yeah. But it's like basically they were playing the same repertoire, like the four more stuff that my friend, from this concert for like about a year. Oh, no, it was less than a year, he said. But they did this like Europe tour

where they played, you know, like Autumn Leaves and Stella by Starlight and Longgreen Dolphin Street. It was like before they were doing, it was before Wayne Shorter came in. And they started doing, you know, other kind of material. And like, there's a bunch of records. There's one called live in Europe that's kind of in and out of print, but it was live in Antib, Juan Lippin, France from that great festival there.

That's a stunning live record. Like almost, I would actually say that's kind of on the level for me with this band as my friend of Valentine. And then there's like live in Tokyo, live in Berlin. There's all these. And they're playing like a lot of the same songs. The saxophone has changed a little because when Coleman left before Wayne Shorter came in, they had, I can't remember who. somebody sunny stitt maybe there's a couple yeah there was a couple of little things but it was mostly

george coleman on that stuff but there's a lot of live kind of bootlegish type stuff that's pretty available that you can just if you want to hear five versions of how these masters played autumn leaves like kind of different like surprisingly different night to night you know but it's very spontaneous very exciting yeah that's cool yeah i hope some people out there do that deep dive like finding those especially those kind of two great miles groups you know the 58 group the kind of blue group with Train and Cannonball. And then this later group with Tony Williams and Ron and Herbie. Like listening to other versions of these songs, which I actually haven't done that much

of. It's probably a lot of fun. It seems like you'll hear the songs evolve over time, which is really cool. Well, nice, man. This has been a delight. Wow, there's a lot of listening to do. Everyone listening to this. You have your assignment.

You got your links. Go listen to some of this music. And check out Open Studio and check out Peter's music as well, because there's a lot of really great stuff there as well. Peter Martin, this was so much fun. Thanks for coming on the show, man. Thank you, Kirk. Keep it strong. As always, I know you will. And much love and listening, enjoyment to all your listeners and to the podcast music community. Cheers, man. Cheers. Peace. And that'll do it for my interview with the one and only Peter Martin. For a list of all the recordings you heard excerpts from in this episode, check out the show notes. And I really do hope

you'll go and check out some of the great players that we discussed. I also hope you'll check out Open Studio. It's pretty cool what Peter and his crew are doing over there in St. Louis. I love that town. I actually have some friends with the family there, so maybe one day I will swing by their studio and see what they're up to in person. At any rate, as always, if you enjoy strong songs, I hope you'll consider supporting the show. I don't sell ads or have sponsors or anything like that, so I really do count on listener support to keep this whole thing going. There is a link for various ways you can support the show down in the show notes. I hope you'll give that a look. All right, that'll do it for now. Work continues on season eight of the show. I'm very excited about

it and pretty excited about music in general these days. For now, though, I will catch you the next time around. Take care and keep listening.