You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The Secret Behind Playing Great Music

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

In this episode, Peter and Adam dive into the musicality of Freddie Hubbard and the chemistry between him and Herbie Hancock. Together, they created a dynamic and exciting sound that helped to define jazz in the 1960s and beyond. Check out the original video here.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open StudioLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey, what's up? You know what we're doing today? No. Nothing but this. I'm Adam Anus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you are listening to the Yule here at podcast.

Music advice coming to you, flowing to you, coming at you. Which one is it? All the above. Here's our new slogan. Music advice coming to you, coming at you, flowing to you. There's three different conduit. This is a conduit for musical information, knowledge, and repartee. Super catchy.

Yeah. Sorry. I got to warn you. I've been on the continent the last couple weeks, and not this continent, the continent. Which continent would that be? Europa. Europa, Eurasia. Eurasia.

Antarctica. Pangenia. Pangia. Pangea. Pangea. Yeah, the super continent. That's right. No, I've been there.

So you're going to get a little bit of a Veconsei per chance. Con Italiano, you know. We'll see. Watch out. So you were in Italy and France, is what I'm trying to. to say. Yes. It was a very pretentious way of saying that. Do you have a good time? I had a very good time. Yeah. Very good time. Did you see any music? I always ask musicians who vacation. So I did. I actually went to a really interesting chamber music concert in Sienna, Italy. That was just great in a beautiful old hall. And so I didn't see a lot. That was actually kind of the main music I heard.

Sienna beautiful. Sienna is beautiful. And the surrounding area too. Yes, the Tuscan countries. It was very nice. That's so great. But that's not what we're here for today. No, we're not here for that, but it is good to have you back, buddy. And it's good to be back recording the podcast. And thanks everybody for blowing up some recent videos. I heard about that. Yeah, on YouTube.

If you haven't checked out the podcast on YouTube, go check it out, and you might as well hit the like and subscribe. If you're on YouTube right now, we're about to give you a free video podcast, you might adhere to a little agreement that we have. Ooh, is that still happening? I didn't know if that's failing away in my absence. By the way, people are very much into, in the comments. saying agreement adhered to. Exactly. And that's, you know, that's part of the deal.

It's like, you must adhere to this agreement. This is what we are calling, not what we're calling, what is the gentleman and ladies agreement. Well, can I just add something? Gentlemen and or ladies agreement. Go ahead and do the basic agreement, but I'm going to add something to it. Okay. So the agreement is we will provide you with an amazing podcast.

And by listening, and if you're hearing this, you're listening or watching. It's a great start. You agree to subscribe to the, YouTube channel as payment. I would also add, subscribe, and leave us a comment. Agreement adhered to. That's great, because that's kind of confirmation. Yeah.

Is that required? I think it's required now. Oh, that's required to. Okay. So subscribe and leave a comment because we want to hear from you. And even it doesn't have to be exactly agreement adhered to, but we want to, we want our agreeers up there in the comments. Yeah, maybe just surprise us with like, you know, some eloquence and another approach to

how, however you want to express to us that you have adhered. to the agreement. That's up to you. Tell your story. Well, speaking of eloquence. Yes. Check this transition out. So we've got a good one today. We've had some really amazing reactions to some of our reaction videos. We watched a Philonious Monk video a few weeks ago and a Mad Jamal video a few weeks ago. Yeah. Wayne Shorter before that. Today, we want to watch a video that's super special. And I think you already knew about this video. I've not seen this yet. Yeah, no, I knew about it. I remember seeing it, you know, around the time it it came out, which is 1985. I'm going to paint a little bit of a picture. Take yourself back to

the mid-80s. Get your palette out. When everybody was wearing Reebok and Nike tennis shoes that look exactly like they are due today. I was going to say, sometimes producer Caleb will wear some Reeboks. No, no, no. He's going straight. He's going straight military today. But it is known to be happened. But no, this was, this concert was kind of a famous concert. You were a little bit young probably to be totally tuned into this on your jazz journey. Yeah. And I was on the younger side for sure. For sure.

But it was a really cool thing because it was, I believe it was part of the rebooting of and reintroduction of the Blue Note record label, which kind of went, it never went totally defunct, but it's sort of, they weren't doing any releases. I don't, something happened with the ownership. I think Toshiba EMI. Thank goodness. They got back on track in the 80s because there's some good stuff that came out in the 80s and 90s on the label. And this was actually came out as one of the first recordings, I believe. but it's from live at Town Hall one night with Blue Note

I believe is what it's called but I remember seeing the video like a videotape VHS what you know about that of this concert and kind of the story about how it came together because it was a little bit of a reunion

of at the time where I was just like oh it's like the old guys and gals from they weren't that old but they were like from back in the day Herbie Hank Codg exactly younger probably younger Tony Williams

Woody Shaw and Freddie Hubbard so Woody Shaw and Freddie Hubbard had a great record from that same year, I believe. It was one of the first releases. Kenny Garrett, a young Kenny Garrett was on it. Wow. I forget it what it was called. It was something with, you know, play on two trumpets.

But of course, they had both recorded on the OG blue note back in the 60s, Johnny Griffin, Curtis Full. It was a lot of luminaries at this concert. But tell them about the particular track and who's on it because this was sort of, you know, certainly an apex to the concert as I remembered from the video. This is Canelope Island, Herbie Hancock's composition. Herbie is playing the piano. Open studio artist Ron Carter is playing the bass.

Tony Williams is playing the drums. Yep. Which is... Good rhythm section. An amazing. You know, one of the rhythm sections of all time. Yeah. And then the horns are Joe Henderson and Freddie Hubbard.

And I think we'll probably spend most of this episode centered around Freddie. Yes. And his incredible playing. So, you know, Freddie Hubbard's recording life, I think, a lot of people focus on the 60s, but 70s on, man. Yeah. Guy was tearing it up. Yeah.

And from what I've seen of this concert, it's no different. I don't know if there is a more, a trumpet player in the history of recorded music, besides maybe Louis Armstrong that has a more appealing combination of artistry, fire, chops. Like, he's sensitive, he's athletic. He's like, it's like the... Athletics a great way to... The complete package. It's like he can do anything on the instrument

and he makes really, really beautiful artistic choices with that power. It's incredible. I've always felt like he had that, I mean, among other things, a special talent that he had was that combination of, like, really interesting

and innovative harmonic approaches but combined with things that worked really well specifically on the trumpet. Yeah. So like he could find those things, things and make them sound really easy if you're not a trumpet player. Trumpa player is always new and were always a little bit fearful of him because of his

athleticism at the instrument, you know, his intonation, his great sound, his kind of, you know, agility and all these things. But it was never just about like trumpet theatrics and everything. He had all that. Listen, there's plenty of trumpet players that are just all theatrics. Right. But this is deeper. You know, Freddy's playing has always been deeper.

And it's his concept. Yeah, exactly. And so he had that really advanced, interesting, harmonic. concept and so that he would weave these incredible melodic shapes that fit really well on the trumpet and then of course his technique was so great he was able to do that but really in service of the music in a super

interesting way and then his rhythmic conception which we're going to hear on this off the charts let's hear a little bit yeah here we go this is amazing by the way and shout out to George Lucas for that what a great suit Freddy's wearing yeah

what's that court Peter he's already breaking it up I eat the text still I don't know that's horrible the Freddyism right there does here

in these D minor sections yeah he's like swirling making the tension happen the emotion what Freddy's doing but it's great we gotta take a break

that's too intense right we gotta take a break this is like a beautiful musical cocaine festival or something So much going on, man. So there's a couple of things I want to back up and just highlight.

First off, some of the chords that Herbie's playing on the D minor sections, it's D minor, right? Yeah, yeah. But he's going all the way up. In the head. What is that? Well, that's the 13th. So he's really like extending up those fours. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, so it's all perfect force. And then that tritone on top, stacking it up. That's beautiful. Because it's very much like, there's a lot of minor 11, and he goes in and out of it. That kind of gives it that tension between that seven, six, 13th, whatever it is. And then what he's doing is rhythmically

is so like, and like he sticks with that a lot on this. The original would be what he's doing. Like, um, tic-tik, peck, d'a-tik, d'a-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-. But I think that original was actually, right right right right out like that yeah so he's adding in you know there's a lot of something and you know Tony Williams kind of hints at that actually even before he plays it like there's a lot of playing around and then when Tony did that that big triplet yeah it was almost just like a hold on a second we're resetting this thing you know yeah and I think you only did it

one time on that solo and just notice like the Herbie's concept like he's going between a couple of different concepts as he's comping he's really just laying down a nice rhythmic foundation if he were like a, you know, guitar player, like he's Nile Rogers or something, just like giving that 16th note. Yeah, like scratching. Exactly.

Totally. And then he's doing some interacting, like interacting with some colors and some textures behind what Freddie's doing. And Freddie is just like, what is happening? Man, he's going for broke just like, I mean,

that the first chorus is kind of restrained in terms of spacing, but the intensity of what he's playing, he's starting out at like 11. I know. It's good. And so it's such a, interesting way of like setting up the solo.

Yeah. Because it's like you're challenging yourself. You're challenging the listener. And I think Herbie certainly, like they're heightening that with like all that really busy comic. There's a lot of trust between them. There's a lot of shared language and history. For sure.

That when you can play that much, you know, and know that that's the way Freddie, like, Freddie's like, oh yeah, this is not a problem. I'm going to play on top of all this. Yeah. And layer, layer all this hip intense stuff right in here with it. What his phrasing is so strong and confident. and intentional, and he sets himself up that it, it, it doesn't, he doesn't need you to help him. We were talking about a spread.

This is, this is all, there's no decaffeonado going on here. No, and then, and then I mentioned, you know, Ron Carter is also like, he's laying down just something like a really big, beautiful sound on the, just in the pocket. And then on that, you can tell they're using that D minor section to really, yeah, A little bit of a release. A little bit of a release. And Ron is doing some like double stops, that kind of thing. You know, foundational, but a little bit, a little,

the only time he gets a little bit looser for like sticking with the line. Tony, too. And it really, it's very effective. So, like, for any young musicians out there, that's how you play the song. Right. That's, like, the groove can stay in the pocket. Right. And then use that third section, that C section to sort of, like, really let things intensify and then release it into the A section.

And what's so great about it is, like, that's, That's really the connection. Like everything else is different, actually, than the way this was originally. And actually, this was almost the exact same band. I believe it was maybe, it wasn't Joe Henderson on the, was it, I know it was Freddie on the original, and maybe George Coleman.

But same rhythm section. Like, the only thing that they're doing the same is the form. Yeah. Like the melody, I mean, yeah, they're playing the melody, but Freddy's playing it differently. The groove is slightly differently. Like every, yeah, the groove and the, you know, the way that they's copping and stuff.

The bass line's pretty much. the same, but like in that D minor section, Ron is stretching it out. But like, that's such a great thing. It's like, no, we're not going to just recreate this thing, even though it's blue note night or whatever. But it's going to be very recognizable, but the energy is different. Well, and notice, and the groove is different. The groove is different. And Herbie's playing differently, as you mentioned. Yeah. So it's also a great lesson for younger musicians or less experienced musicians. Let the music evolve. It doesn't have to be the same as it was in 1965 or whatever. Like let it happen and be with it where it is. Like that articulation on the,

it's a big difference. Like it is a different feeling. But it's, it sets up some kind of other energy with this performance. And it's, I'm loving it. No, it's great. And it really places it for that evening, for that live performance. That's when this music is at its best, I think, is taking this shared language or shared, I mean, like this is such a standard kind of like jam session. It's not even, I guess it's a jam, it's just, it's a standard. It's like everybody knows it, the listeners know it, everybody loves it. You know, around the same time

there was like a kind of hip-hop sample of this, spinoff with one of those European hip-hop whatever. So, I mean, it's like, it's out there. So it's like, okay, what are you going to do when you got the OGs playing it, you know, and it's very much placed during this time in a super exciting way. Let's hear a little more.

Yeah. Crazy. There's something like, wow, you survived that solo? Yeah, well done. Impressive. Now Ron's stretching out a little bit. Huge Tony's kid is in the era. Oh, that's what he...

What is that? On that D-Mine, I think he did his... The double, triple diminished? Yeah, like a D-flat major over D-minor kind of line. Yeah. Which is such a great, like, you know, from that minor 11 over that six. But it just goes to show you, that section is not about some kind of like... you know, set color.

It's about tension. It's about swirling. It's about creating tension to release it. And I think he went to that. Like, he was doing more like the force comp and because of perhaps the way that Freddie Harbor was soloing. Yeah. Like Joe Henderson is really doing a lot more third base kind of...

Yeah. You know, even like that kind of thing over that D minor. So that's kind of a way to give it a little bit of tension, but a little acknowledgement of that harmonic structure. Yeah, because Freddie was playing pretty outside. Yeah. And especially after the first two choruses. Yeah.

A lot of forced, you know, kind of fourth jumping up and down. Ready to look like, I want to get back in there. Come on, jump you back. Joe, let me back. There is minor 30. You pause that for this second. So this is something that I think is kind of important sometimes just in terms of maybe, you know, ways that we can think about approaching not only this tune, but any kind of pen.

Like this is so pentatonic and blues. like that dualia. You heard Joe Henderson doing that for everybody. But thinking about that as opposed to an F minor pentatonic as an A-flab major pentatonic with the 6th because that's kind of the way he's, I hear it, melodically that Herbie's approaching it, you know. And you could say like, well, no, no, no, I think it's F minor.

Like the main thing is just to sort of start to find two different ways to maybe get to the same point and give approaches for you. You know what I mean? It doesn't really matter what the listener. It's the same notes. right? It's the same notes, exactly, but it's kind of like the structure of how you do it. It doesn't matter how the listener, because most people are thinking

about pentatines, but they hear that sign. It's such a foundational kind of thing. But when I hear that, I kind of, from an analysis standpoint, gravitate more towards that A-flat major. Well, you know, sorry, just to, we didn't get too far, but you know what that does? If you think about it like that

is when you hit that in that D-flat-7, then you can think A-flat minor. Exactly. With major 7. So it turns into nearly like a blues kind of connotation. Totally, totally. And so you've got like dual blues connotation because you still got the flat of fifth

or the minor third. Yeah. What was that though? Herbie being Herbie as he says. So he's hinting already at that D minor before he gets there. Oh, so there he's like D minor. D minor going down a whole step

as opposed to going down a half step there. I think so, yeah. That kind of thing? Oh, yeah. Oh, maybe. Yeah, some. Yeah, I think it's a down a whole step. You gotta get Max Ganes in here.

Yeah, with a minor nine. It's the whole stuff. This guy's really up on the surby stuff. Oh, well, it's so many different opportunities to take it out. So like a lot of those times, well, several of those chorus, you know, he goes when he's on the D flat, and then he hints up to that D minor already. And then he went up to the E flat minor and then came to the E flat minor and then came to. down. So he's on that D flat 7.

And then he hits... Yeah, he's not supposed to be there yet. Sometimes you're right. He is hitting this like... Yeah. ...double diminished, like D flat minor over D. Yep. C-sharp minor, I guess.

Just everybody remember this next part. Don't try to force it in. And I love that. They've kind of abandoned that. They don't really play that that much. Did you ever get to hang with Freddie Hubbard? A little bit, yeah. Stories I can't really.

He seems like it would be a good time. He was a good time. Yeah, he was great. I actually heard him for the first time would have been within a year of this here in St. Louis at St. Louis Community College. Oh, really? A little hall there.

I remember getting a chance to hear him, which was amazing. At Forest Park. Yeah, exactly. And it was, I mean, this period actually kind of mid-80s, I think was one of his strongest periods. Like he had in the 90s, when I heard him, and even like early 2000s, I can't remember exactly when,

I think he passed in mid-2000s. And he had some chops issues at different times. Obviously, such a powerful player, so much technique that, you know, the times when he had some different issues, you really could tell. But his playing was at such a high level that it was still like really, really good.

But in thinking about it, this was one of, I think, his strongest periods. I mean, it was just like, you could just tell. I mean, there was like almost nothing he couldn't play that he was feeling. It's true. There was no technical limitations necessary. And it's just so joyous.

It's so much fun to be a part of, to be on that ride. And what an amazing band. Tony Williams, I love the huge 80s kit. I guess that started in the 70s. Right, right. That big gratch kit, huge drums, huge tombs. Yeah. But, like, he and Herbie, it's funny, drummers and piano players, man.

Yeah. They, you know, the ones that work well together, like, like Kenny Kirkland and Tain and Herbie and Tony. They just have this like otherworldly ability to create tension with each other and just create these colors around the band. It's just like there's certain watching two people have a discussion. Yeah. You know, like even when there's a lot going on.

Between that piano, I mean, you talk about Herbie and Tony. There's just so many different things. Then you go back and you just focus in on that. You're like, wow, you know, and to see these little sparks flying and where did they start? Yeah. And then they start throwing them around. It's great stuff. So yeah, I'm going to go back and kind of see if I can find this complete video.

Maybe it's on YouTube of that whole concert because it was a lot of great great stuff happening. Well, thanks for joining us, everybody. Yeah. We'll be back with more. Until next time, you'll hear it.