You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - "The Shape of Jazz to Come" – Ornette Coleman

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come (1959) may be the most controversial album in jazz history, and one of the most important.In 1959, a broke musician from Fort Worth, Texas arrived in New York City with a plastic saxophone and a band that didn't play by the rules. And EVERYONE had an opinion about it.Jazz legends hated it. Miles Davis said Ornette was "all screwed up inside." Max Roach punched him in the mouth. Dizzy Gillespie said Ornette's music wasn't even jazz. Meanwhile, Leonard Berstein and John Coltrane celebrated him.So what exactly is The Shape of Jazz to Come, and why was it so radical? Jazz pianists Peter Martin and Adam Maness break down every track, from "Lonely Woman" to "Chronology". They dig into harmolodics, free jazz, and how Ornette shaped everyone from Miles Davis (who eventually came around) to the '80s burnout crew, including Wynton Marsalis, who personally recommended this record to Peter.Dig into The Shape of Jazz to Come with us, and learn why this soft spoken saxophonist inspired both criticism and awe.-------------------------------Start your free Open Studio trial for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs:https://openstudiojazz.com/yhi-------------------------------Related You'll Hear It episodes:Mingus Ah Um: https://youtu.be/XYeRZ0Awui4Giant Steps: https://youtu.be/8umC2yZlPHcKind of Blue: https://youtu.be/ShzSnjP8bSgTime Out: https://youtu.be/-_qPhFSJeQUNina Simone at Town Hall: https://youtu.be/2PDjN5_2y5Q-------------------------------About You'll Hear It:In this popular music series Adam and Peter break down the greatest albums of all time. Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Joni Mitchell, D'Angelo: Jazz is the foundation of the most GENIUS music in recent history. These seasoned jazz pianists bring their deep musical knowledge to every joyful episode to help you hear the hidden qualities that make music AMAZING. You'll never hear music the same way again.-------------------------------Sign up for the You'll Read It newsletter for little known stories about the artists you love:https://youllhearit.com/newsletter-------------------------------0:00:00 - Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come0:01:42 - 1959: A Pivotal Year0:03:06 - Ornette Coleman: The Backstory0:04:44 - Ornette's Earlier Sound0:06:18 - Lore of the Five Spot0:07:00 - "Lonely Woman"0:12:27 - Harmolodics Explained (Charlie Haden + Don Cherry)0:13:27 - "Eventually"0:14:42 - The '80s Jazz Connection (Wynton, Branford, Kirkland)0:17:21 - "Peace"0:23:50 - Ad: Open Studio0:24:57 - Mingus Said THIS About Coleman0:27:47 - "Focus on Sanity"0:29:40 - When Peter Played with Charlie Haden0:32:43 - Don Cherry's Kids: Neneh Cherry + Eagle-Eye Cherry0:34:22 - "Congeniality"0:36:28 - "Chronology"0:37:23 - Technical Technique vs. Artistic Vision0:42:13 - Categories: Desert Island Tracks, Apex Moments0:48:55 - You'll Read It Newsletter + Ambies

Miles Davis thought he was crazy. Dizzy Gillespie said that he had no idea what this music was, but it wasn't jazz. And Max Roach once followed him out of the five-spot and punched him in the face. Ornette Coleman. He was divisive. He was revolutionary.

In 1959, he packed the five-spot in downtown Manhattan with musical royalty clamoring to hear sounds unlike anything they'd heard before. The music that would define the shape of jazz to come. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to The You'll Hear It Podcast. Music Explored.

Explored. Brought today by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJaz.com for, oh, dopio. All of your jazz lesson needs. I'm trying to be fresh, Peter, because this album we're listening to today. Inspired new sounds. I thought I would make some new sounds. That's right. That's right.

1959's The Shape of Jazz to Come. One of the greatest titled records. Maybe the greatest titled record ever. That's a bold statement. That's a bold statement. It's a bold statement. We'll get into the title, actually. We'll get into the title.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, what great stuff here. What a pivotal record. What a pivotal year, 1959. How many times have we said that? I mean, we've said it now. I think this is the fifth album we've done from that year. So we did Time Out.

Wow, we're really old souls, aren't we? We've done Kind of Blue, which, by the way, we're going to be redoing Kind of Blue pretty soon, I think. It's time. It's time for a Re Kind of Blue. We've done Charles Mingus Mingus Ahm. Yeah. And we've done Nina Simone live. At the Town Hall.

At Town Hall. and this will be the fifth album. And Giant Steps, John Culture. Is that? Recorded in 1959. No, but, you know, this is an interesting one. I don't know what your relationship is with The Shape of Jazz to Come.

We actually haven't talked about it. But for me, this is one that hit me at a time in my musical life that was so impactful. I was a very young man when I heard this for the first time. I had literally never heard anything like it, which is, I think, probably how everybody else must have felt in 1959. You know, I mentioned in that intro that Miles Davis wasn't a fan. Miles would eventually come around.

Oh, yeah. And start making music that kind of sounds a little like this album. You don't know what I'm saying? And be influenced by. Be influenced by. And say nice things later on about. For sure. Yeah, no, it just, I think it just hit everybody like a slap in the face.

And what I do think about this album is it's like there's no tepid reactions to this album. You either have a very positive reaction or a very negative. Most people, I should say. I'm sure that's not true for everybody. But it seems to like really cause some severe opinions. this album. Orna Kulman is interesting as a player. He doesn't have the traditional path, like almost every

other jazz musician we've covered on the show, who starts off playing a lot of sideman work, recording with a lot of people before he does his own thing. He did play in blues and R&B bands around Texas, in the South. Is he from Texas? He's from Fort Worth, Texas. I always think about him as a West Coast guy, but in a way, Texas is...

But the Texas saxophone tradition, you hear that on here. That's so much, so that totally makes sense. Oh, I think, honestly, He was always one step away from jumping up and walking the bar. He's a... He's a blues musician, almost first and foremost. And that is played out on this record, I think. No, but we mentioned the extreme reactions for some of the musicians.

But even back in the day, there's lore that in 1949 on tour in Louisiana, Ornette was booted off the bandstand. He was dragged outside, beaten by an angry mob, and his horn was thrown off a cliff. That seems like a legend more than it does, a fact. But there's all of these stories about him being kicked out of the... of jam sessions, being booted off gigs. He played a little white plastic saxophone. Right. And he had a yellow one on here. He had his own thing that was, you know, for lack of a better word,

very divisive. Yeah. And I think that's the price you pay for being an absolute original. So here's why his path wasn't very traditional, right? Like usually when we do our buildup to these iconic albums, there are all these albums that these artists have played on on other people's names. not true for Ornette Coleman. He didn't do a ton of other stuff before he made Shape of Jazz to Come in 1959. He made an album in 1958

called Something Else. Yeah, that's piano, Peter. Yeah. He made an album in early 1959 called Tomorrow is the Question. No piano on this. This is a great record. That was really good.

You're writing too about, you're mentioning about the 20s, even stylistically, and you hear some of that on the shape of jazz to come. I think it's on chronology. Like the, almost like the, the collective improvisation, or at least the spirit of it, between Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman a la New Orleans.

As in the roots of the music, you just heard it there, a little bit of like implied street beat to the way they're phrasing and stuff, a real connection with the tradition of the music. So in the late 50s, Ornett was living in California. Yep. Which is where he met Charlie Hayden.

and he was working as an elevator operator and a stockroom clerk in L.A. while studying music theory on his lunch breaks. He was hustling. He was hustling. Then John Lewis of the modern jazz quartet heard him, called him the only real new thing in jazz since Charlie Parker, and got him a deal with Atlantic Records.

The album, The Shape of Jazz To Come, was recorded in one day in that very same year, him and his quartet, Don Cherry and Charlie Hayden, added by Billy Higgins, went to New York and started a residency at the five spot. And, you know, the lore goes that there would be Leonard Bernstein there with his ear to Charlie Hayden's F-hole in the bass, like just there checking it out.

And all these music luminaries, Gunther Schuller and all these people there to check out Ornette Coleman. The jazz intelligentsia, you might say? Just even the music intelligentsia, right? The avant-garde intelligentsia. And some of the jazz guys were not super happy about this, like, you know kind of guy who came out of nowhere playing a plastic saxophone sounding

not like anybody else and that's you know where the story of Max Roach getting mad enough to follow him up and try to beat him up basically comes from. Right. But let's hear that first track from The Shape of Jazz Come one of the best opening track

we say this on every album. Well yeah one of the best opening tracks ever. But it's true. Higgins and Hayden come on. Like one one of the great rhythm sections all time. We don't talk about those

two in particular together. 100%. And what? They're 22, 22 years old. Both of them. Or 23. That's Don Cherry on the Cornette. Charlie Hayden on the bass. Billy Higgins on the drums. A little tenor sack-eye, a little Texas tenor vibe there.

Billy Higgins just the engine driving this train, you know what I mean? Woo! You heard that? Ah. You know what I'm saying? It's Texas R&B games. Man, this lonely woman, it's like a jazz standard that no one can play. I've played it.

We played it before, but it's tough to pull off, man. But if you go to a jazz station, you're like, yeah, lonely woman. One, two, one. That's not going to work, right? Right, right. Yeah. Man, Ornette's, like, the personality. Yeah, and like the way these forms work.

Okay, so, man, so much to talk about. So much. I just want to throw one thing out there. The balance of this quartet, even though there's no piano, quibble bit, but like you have Hayden's and Higgins, especially like on this, well there's a couple tracks where they're, of course,

all playing together beautifully, but there's very much like a two-and-two kind of situation, right? So Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry, the way they do, do, bo-boe, like the freedom with which they're stretching, they're playing rebutto,

basically, but they're breathing, they're phrasing, they go in and out of the groove at little places, but they're floating that, and then Hayden is like, not worried about like, it was just four hours, this is that ape, doong, do, and those double stops.

And Higgins is driving, as you said. Like, there's a real, like, tension and balance. Yeah. Between this that is, that I actually would say, if there was piano there, might screw it up. It went hundred percent of one. Because of the way they're playing. They've dissolved the traditional sense of form.

Yeah. That every bebop musician that was coming before them, hard-bop musician, post-bop musician was playing. And even, you know, the same year that this comes out, kind of blue comes out. So what? And everybody talks about, oh, it's like modal jazz. There's only two chords. Right. But compared to this,

that might as well be like a Gershwin too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is really truly dissolving many of the rules of forms and traditional song forms that were put upon the music before this. And a lot of people weren't ready for it. Let me just say this to that, though. That's absolutely agree with what you're saying.

Yet for the listener, I think it feels very, like this doesn't feel like free jazz. I think it does to musicians in a way because we understand like, wow, there's no like form or chart or whatever. But because of the way they play and because of that balance between the quartet with the rhythm section and the horns

and it's so clear when they're going to the soul and coming out and then coming back to the melody, it's so intentional. Yeah. That I think it gives it this feel like a very mysterious and challenging but very edifying listening experience, especially lonely woman. I mean, this is... In 2002,

Charlie Hayden in an interview, a print interview said, Ornett completely turned jazz upside down. There were several innovators in jazz, Lewis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie, B-Bop. And Ornott's band started what we started. I saw it as a new vocabulary. Ornett called it harmelodic.

For instance, if you play Jerome Kerns, all the things you are, you play the melody, then everyone improvises and takes solos. What we do in Ornott's band is create from a composition of his so that after you play the me, you create a new chord structure. That's always different.

It's never the same. It's moving. And here's Don Cherry on that term, harmelotics, which is what they call that sort of formless form. And when we're speaking of harmelotic, we're speaking of melody and harmony. And a good example is when Arnett would write a melody. And we would learn the melody and play it in unison together.

Then he would write harmony to the melody. And as I would be playing in the melody, I would be playing the melody and the harmony that he would write, the harmony itself would become the melody. And the melody that I would be playing would become harmony. Flipping. Yeah. To the actual harmony melody. You can hear that in there.

Isn't that crazy? Oh, it's so great. Yeah. Let's check out the second track, Peter. This is eventually. This is so good. Bebop. So swinging.

Yeah. Oh, hey, pushing. So they're just off of the melody. Everything is off of the melody. It's the most melody-focused music that I think has been up to this point. So there's a line between this way of, especially at this tempo, a direct line I'm going to throw out there. And I wasn't even planning on, I've never really put this together theoretically. Preach, talk about it.

With the burnout style of the 80s, which kind of was a little bit of a flash and then it went away. Although it would show it's, so what we're talking about really, I think, went Marsalis, brand for Marcellus, Kenny Kirkland, Jeff Watts, Kenny Garrett to a certain degree but like that crew and a bunch of other folks I think there's a direct connection between this way of playing

especially on a couple of the tunes off of you now I'm thinking back I know Winton is very up on this record and was at the 80s I remember him never would have guessed that I know a lot of people wouldn't but in fact I remember he was the one who told me like you got check out the shape of it

I was like wow I was surprised that was winning that was winning absolutely so like he was definitely up on this that's below my mind right now but it makes sense It's like you hear that way. And then even the way, like Hayden is playing and being, like way on top of the beat. Like a lot of stuff to Bob Hurst later on Reginald Veal, Charneette Moffitt, a lot of influences there.

But just this approach where it's like there's no chords, right? Like it's coming off the melody. It's coming off whatever you're creating them. With the burnout stuff, they were doing, sometimes there was a form. But sometimes there wasn't. So I got a little chance to play some of that with them over different times. It's very exciting way of playing. But I think it's more connected specifically with this record in some ways,

or as connected as it is with like Herbie Rontoni, which is always like plug nickel during that, which was definitely a little bit of influence from this too, I think. This is what I'm saying. No, you know, Miles Davis comes around, and you can definitely hear some of this. I just think like the entire idea of this, we take it for granted now because it's been around our whole lives.

And even if we, if I, you know, I didn't hear it until I was 22 this album, but I heard people who were influenced by this album. You heard people who were influenced by this album, so it's been amongst our musical culture, our entire existence. And for the people in 1959, this would have been out of outer space. Right. It would have just been coming down from a place of complete, you know, never heard anything to, I mean, in popular jazz.

I'm sure there are people doing this and don't at me in the comments about like, well, actually, and this. Oh, no, they've been weirder stuff in this year before. No, no, no, for sure. But to take, like, the scene by storm. in a way, right? Right. He's gaining, like, national popularity in America on it. And look, a lot of this, like, the way I had it broken down,

it's almost like there's two, like, straight up hard bop, you could call it burnout, but that wasn't coined until later, two bebop, like hard-bop tunes, or free bop, you might want to call it, where they're swinging out hard. Absolutely. And then there's two, like, kind of beautiful, you know, you know, peace and lonely woman. I mean, it's all beautiful, come on.

But then there's sort of hybrids, the other two tunes. But we're going to get into that. check out peace. This might be the most beautiful song on the album. In a way, it's the most traditional song. You know, it's a song song. Yeah, but again. Relatively.

But then it has that. The implied harmony here without having to piano, but you can fill in the ball. It's so great. It doesn't hurt that Charlie Hayden's playing bass on this either. I think it's interesting because Hayden and Higgins are both like master technicians like that brushwork

Hayden man it's so good are there changes on this are there? I don't know I mean they're definitely playing harmonodics but I mean

like they're listening there's a tonal center but when they like when Hayden moves away like there's a give and take there yeah that's the thing man I don't think they're thinking about these as traditional chord changes

I think it's all around there's a form obviously there's a head there's a melody and Charlie Hayden is playing a bass movement that's repeatable on the melody but I don't know if those if you can if you can

extract an entire chord progression from what they're doing I suppose you could should we try it nerd duck no but it's it's really the beginning notice there's no keyboard here today

by the way because there's no no chords because the piano was not invited to the session it was not invited to this party and we want to respect that but no I don't know man you know it's funny too like

you mentioned like no one pulls out lonely woman at the jam session first of all I bet people do depending on how nerdy your jam session is I bet someone does which is weird because actually that's the kind of tune that should be

think about like the complicated tunes To learn how to improvise? Yeah where it's like wait you're gonna do the head you're gonna do like no just everybody listen all you need to do is learn this melody and have great ears in a musical sense So my son Ivan is 13 he's learning how to play the bass right now

and he's learning how to improvise and we're working on like you know the forms like the blues and satin doll and things like that. And then you realized trying to teach a 13-year-old how to improvise, man, this is hard on the blues. It's actually harder than you might think to learn how to improvise. I was like, I bet he could, like, play along a lonely woman and just really get into it in a way that would be like,

just imitate what they're doing. Like, all they're doing is listening to the melody and, I mean, all they're doing. That's just. It's world-class what they're doing. But, like, you could get in there in the spirit of this without having to know a bunch of changes. They all, of course, know how to play changes and everything like that.

But this is more, like, I think, accessible. Yes. For not just, like, players, but listeners, too. Well, it's like the thing, like, they had to know and understand and learn advanced harmony in order to be able to get to the point where they could, like, develop their ears to be able to come and play in this way.

But then they had to a certain degree be able to, like, push all that out of their mind. So it's like, you need to have the openness, the confidence, the ear, training, but then you can't get stuck in that. Like if he hears Hayden go down to the low E, he can't be like, oh, I could put this. Like, he has to just be able to react.

But you also can't just be ignorant and be like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just playing random stuff. Because there's definitely a period. I know we're not supposed to say this. Is this a safe space? Okay. There was a period of free jazz, so-called free jazz, where the action and the intent was just like,

play whatever you want. Don't listen to each other. Now, this, I'm not saying, I'm not trying to disparage any movement or anything. It's not about that. It's just like anything. Just like there's not good bebop players. There's not good blues players.

There's not good free jazz players. But for some reason, because it's free, you could get away with that more, maybe in that arena, right? But when you're bringing all the skills and you're able to sublimate those to a greater purpose of playing some shape of jazz to come type of stuff. And like you hear different,

all of them in a way, like trying to kind of connect and pull things into something they know. I think more with Hayden and Higgins in a way because of the rhythm section. Like there's not this aversion to like, no, we're not going to do a four-four swing. Like, dang, ding, ding, you know,

boom, but then it's like, doong, doong, doong, break it up. But like that groove is always there. So they're not afraid to be in the tradition. Yeah. And even to your point from earlier, even to jump back a couple of decades as well and to make those connections.

So to me, that's all about the freedom, right? The freedom that they're bringing to this. That's free jazz. Hey, Peter. Hey. Since we're talking about how to get to freedom by using the structure, you like that transition? That was good. That was good.

You know, this brings us right back to openstudiojazz.com. If you're interested in learning how to get those fundamental skills to get you to be able to... Yeah, to be able to forget and play shape of jazz to come. Exactly right. You go to Open StudioJazz.com slash YHI and start a 14-day free trial. We deal with this stuff in a bunch of different courses, especially like nuts and bolts music stuff. Like the basics that get you into how to be free, we start talking about like chords, scales, learning tunes,

ideas, narratives, improvisation, improvisation, rhythm, all that stuff. Beginer, intermediate, and advanced. And what's above advanced? Shape of jazz to come. Start your 14-day free trial at open studio jazz.com slash y-h-hi. That's open studio jazz.com slash y-hi for Oh, your jazz lesson needs. Back to the show.

Okay. Let's get away from that rude commercial interruption. Back to us, buddy. You know who put this in a really cool way? Yeah. So Charles Mingus, around the time that this album came out, he did one of those downbeat blindfold tests. Yeah.

Oh, I want to know about this. And you can, I'm going to read this. I'm here for it. I'm going to read this for you because you hear Mingus. Mingus, who's one of the great artists of his time, especially like pushing boundaries, like all the things we're talking about today. He'd made a record in 1959.

He did. But he really cared about this kind of stuff, about the new, right? And he's taking this blindfold test. And at the end of the blindfold test, he says, you didn't play anything by Ornette Coleman. I'll comment on him anyway. We need more people like that in jazz. Now, I don't care if he doesn't like me.

But anyway, one night, Symphony Sid was playing a whole lot of stuff, and then he put on an Ornette Coleman record. Symphony Sid famously DJ at, what was? the radio station. I think it was nationwide. It was nationwide. Yeah, yeah. Now, he is really an old-fashioned alto player.

He's not as modern as bird. He plays in C and F and G and B-flat only. He does not play in all the keys. So he's not good to go. He doesn't take it to all-trial keys. Basically, you can hit a pedal point C all the time and it'll have some relationship to what he's playing. Right?

Now, aside from the fact that I doubt he can even play a C-scale in hole notes, tied whole notes, a couple of bars apiece in tune. The fact remains that his notes and lines are so fresh. So when Symphony said, Sid played his record,

it made everything else he was playing. Even my own record that he played sound terrible. Wow. I'm not saying everybody's going to have to play like Coleman, but they're going to have to stop copying Bird. Nobody can play Bird right yet but him. Now, what would Fats Navarro and JJ

have played like if they never heard a bird or even Dizzy? Would he still play like Roy Eldridge? Anyway, when they put Coleman's record on, the only record they could have put on behind it would have been Bird. It doesn't matter about the key he's playing in. He's got a percussional sound, like a cat on a whole lot of bongos.

He's brought a thing in. It's not new. I won't say who started it, but whoever started it, people overlooked it. It's not having anything to do with what's around you and being right in your own world. You can't put your finger on what he's doing.

It's like organized, disorganization, or playing wrong, right. And it gets to you emotionally, like a drummer. That's what Coleman means to me. Isn't that unbelievable? I've never heard so much glaze and shade in the same review ever.

But man, my tip of the hat to Charlie Mingus, Charles Bingus, for like putting it all out there and then being open to like, but damn, he played, he's like, he's not very good, but his music is very good. Doesn't it make you want to hang with Charles Mingus? Don't you wish Charles Mingus had a podcast? That would be unbelievable.

That's right. Man. Yeah. Should we do Morgas? That'd be fun. Yeah, for sure. Next up is the penultimate song, Focus on Sanity. Penultimate to the Penultimate. Is this in C? No, but you could put a C pedal to it. I think he wanted the record to be called for Focus on Sanity.

That's right. He wanted this title, Focus on Sanity, to be the name of this record. And Atlantic said, The Shape of Chastick. That's a great day. Focus on sanity? Yeah, I know. Can't say that anymore. Some say that's the swing and rhythm section right there. Oh, my God. So, by the way.

Orna gave him space, too. Go ahead. Listening to this album is like listening to a set. Yeah. This is the point in the set. Yeah. Where would they, they would put this long extended? Right. Base solo. It works really well. Woo. Charlie Hayden.

Was he actually 22 on this? You know what? So many great players are, I'm not going to say 22 is young anymore. It just amazes me for some reason. I was doing great stuff at 22, so I shouldn't be amazed. I was listening to this album I was going to Maybe that's why it hit me so hard That was the age of these guys

When they made it You know what I mean? So Charlie Hayden Charlie Hayden was I actually got a chance To play with them a couple times And mostly Yeah totally Lucky Duck

Early 90s We did a tour In Europe for a while I want to say a couple weeks It might have been like 10 days With the Roy Hargrove Quintet And Charlie Hayden Quartet West

Where we were doing like concerts in these cool little like 300, 400-seat theaters in France, and I think we went to Germany a little bit of Italy, but it was a really fun tour. And for some reason, like Charlie insisted on, like, opening each night. He was just like, no, you guys are young cats. What was his, I don't even want to do his voice, but he had a great, we used to all like, you know.

Just very distinct. Yeah, man, so it was very, you know, that's not a good version of it. Do you have an impression of everyone you played with? Sometimes it seems like that. Sorry, I'm a listener. No, but he was so kind with us. It was Roy Hardrow of Ron Blake, Rodney Whitaker. Oh, my God, what a band.

Greg Hutchinson. Holy smokes. Yeah, it was Roy's band. It's a smoke show of a band. And then Charlie had this great quartet. And they were, Roy and Charlie were both on Verve Records. Yeah. Actually, I think that Charlie was on jitin.

Tell me that Roy and Charlie played a ballad together at some point. Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. I would pay a million dollars to hear that. For sure. Oh, good, because I've got it on my phone. Can I text you that? I mean, you got a jump drive?

No, so basically He would play Cortet West, which was a great band This was one of the great 90s bands They actually have some records that we should do Lawrence Maribel I believe was his name on drums It was all Cortet West

L.A. Cats, you know, Charlie had been out there Ernie Watts on saxophone Sure, sure, sure, sure, you know, from The Tonight Show And I'm, what was his name? I was gonna say Andre Watts on piano It was not Andre Watts, it was I'll remember his name in a minute, great pianist legendary like Hollywood

film composer but also great jazz piano John Williams No no no really really like serious Alan Alan something I'm space on his name Grey Cat Apologies But he would The theme of the band was they would place

Music of like old Hollywood From the 30s and the 40s And like standards but not like all the things you are Like stuff that that Maybe the 40s and 50s I'm not sure But like film noir stuff and it was mad. I can still remember how they sounded.

But Charlie Hayden was just killing it every night. And then he would stay and like listen to us and we would hang and was such a all of them. It was a great experience for me. Alan Broadband. Alan Broadband. Alan Broadband. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah, Charlie Hayden, one of my all-time favorite musicians, honestly. The album that's impacted me the most in the last 10 years of all the albums I've heard is the duo album with him and Hank Jones that I just discovered. that, yeah. Called Steal Away, where they're playing all of these hymns just do, Hank Jones and Charlie Hayden for like the mid-90s. Yeah, that's two of your favorites, I think. It's one of the most gorgeous albums I've ever heard,

and it's been such a huge influence on my playing as a play. Can we add that to the list? Don Cherry, too, Peter. Don Cherry is an important part of this, playing the pocket trumpet, the cornet, and such an interesting player, such an incredible sound. One of my favorite parts of the story of this album and the Don Cherry connection, though,

This is going to seem a little crass, but, you know, Don Cherry had some kids who made music, too. That's right. Did you know that? Well, one of which I knew, the other one I've learned about, so. So he had kids who were musicians, two of which had mega pop hits. Big hits. They were big, I guess you could call them One Hit Wonders. I don't know. Nina was, I think, I don't remember that one record. Nina Cherry, both had huge hits. So here's Nina. And if you don't know the songs, you do know the songs. Here's Nina Cherry. If you're of a certain age. I think this is 89 or 90 maybe. Yeah. So that's Don Cherry's daughter, Ney.

and this is Don Cherry's son, Eagle Eye, in the mid-90s. This was so popular when I was in high school. Sam Ball's loving it. How old is that dude? I just think it's so interesting. I just think it's so interesting after listening to this album and hearing all this amazing avant-garde playing by Don Cherry and his two kids have these huge, like hugely produced pop hits.

All I'm producers. all our staff is getting excited like, oh, you're doing that record? I know, they want to hear the Eagle Eye Cherry. All right, so the last track on the album is Congeniality. Wait, what about chronology? Oh, sorry, the second to last track. The penultimate.

Yeah, excuse me, that's okay. Another hard pop. It is freebop, isn't it? Free bop. That's great. Frop. Frop. Fromm. Eh, I don't know about that.

Oh, it's so playful. Hey. Yeah, I mean, at this time, the way. the way he's phrasing though I could see how people are like nah you know because it's like he's like playing lines it be like baby but it's like baby

it boo do but it like he's going in and out of almost a rabato within the line right oh yeah compared to like bird cannonball sunny sunny trains but is there train without Ornette you know he definitely or at least trained in 65 66

shaped the jazz that would come. Before we get to the categories, there's one more track to check out. This is... This is a short record, by the way. It's like 37 and a half minutes. Here's chronology. What a great song.

I always thought this was rhythm change. I don't know if it is. I felt like it was their take on rhythm change. It's got the vibe. Yeah. There's definitely 32 bar, four. Oh, I don't. He's that 7 bar 7.

7, 8, 7. We're a hard group. Influenced by Don Sherry a bunch. I talk about a percussive player. Yeah. Man, what a great partner with Ornette. Now, am I speaking out of turn if I were to say that Don Cherry and Ornette did not have, like part of I think the balance of this that somehow it works beautifully, Don Cherry and Ornette did not have the technical prowess that Charlie Hayden and Billy Higgins had? You think so?

I think so. That's not saying. But it's not, but it doesn't, like, there's no detriment to the music on this. Like, if I really listen to it. and like Charlie hated Billy Higgins were like master technicians and like just great at their instruments, right? I don't think any of this matters to the listener actually. Like how good is your technique or what? It's like with a painter like certain painters are known for having incredible technique.

Some wouldn't not as much, but the artistic vision and execution can be equal if not greater either way. It's just that when you have a quartet, there's a symmetry there and a balance, you know, that I just think works. Well, I think it depends on where you put value in technique, right? Like, so what do you, what you're calling technique depends on what you put technical value on. Well, no, I'm just talking about basic stuff. Like, kind of like Migos was saying, how I don't think he can play a scale. Yeah. I mean, that's a little harsh.

But the artistic vision of Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman is of the highest order. Oh, yeah. That's the technique. It's like the artistic technique, you know, more than maybe the instrumental technique. Yeah, maybe that's what I'm saying. And there's balance in this. And, I mean, we got a little flack a couple weeks ago when we were comparing like Charlie Parker to punk rock for being underground. and it wasn't, that was definitely like, yeah, Charlie Parker is not in punk rock,

like, compared to punk rock, in that Charlie Parker was a masterful technician, and punk rock musicians didn't give a shit about being... And wore that as a badge of honor. And this is kind of in the middle of that a little bit where it's like, part of the art of this is how different it sounds from all of these flashy technical players that would have been around them at this time. I just think that like... By the way, that's a thing now.

Like, this is a genre, a whole genre of jazz now. Of course. But I just think that the bat, like we shouldn't, like when you have a masterful record like this, a document that stood this test of time and it just has so many different angles to enjoy it from, I think looking at the balance of the players, like if everybody has the level of technique, you know, in terms of the rhythm section that maybe Don Sherry and Ornette Coleman had, maybe this doesn't work, but maybe, you know, Charlie Hayden and I'm oversimplifying, apologies. No.

But Charlie Aiden and. Billy Higgins maybe they're being elevated with the artistic freedom. You know what I mean? Because none of this really matters. It's like what is the output? What is the whole result? And it's one of the greatest. Maybe they got lucky. Maybe Ornette was a genius. It was like, I'm going to get this kind of. But whatever, for whatever

reason it comes out. Like sometimes having all like master technicians on their instrument of band is not fun. You know what I mean? And look, not everyone's going to be a master technician. It's degrees, man. Yeah. And a master. But like the whole thing is like from a quartet, from a trio or duo, anything time you get beyond soul.

a piano, whatever. Okay, can I be honest about this? I actually find the Venn diagrams of people who are master technicians and master artists to be almost two complete separate circles. Like, that's my opinion on this. But, I mean, you know, and really the only person who's linking them up

is kind of Art Tatum. You know what I mean? But even people think he's too flashy and too, there's too much fireworks. People think Oscar Peterson is too technical, right? So it is just a matter of taste. Some people might think that this is, this playing is,

BS because it's not you know Jackie McLean it's not technical it's not it's not biting or whatever it is technical in in certain ways but it's not the obvious ways that like a you know a Charlie Parker is where it's just obvious like holy smokes nobody can do that

you know right right so I and in some ways look Ornette has such a distinctive sound but like if you put it with like sunny Stitts sunny Rollins Coltrane around this time like you could you there's just specific things you could say about the roundness of his tone. Well, I mean, tone is different

because, like, if you have a sound, you're killing it, right? But, I mean, just in terms of, like, finger technique and that kind of thing. I mean, intonation, actually, like, they have a lot of control over intonation and stuff. I'm just talking about, like, here's what makes, this is what makes Bird and Coltrane, I think, in particular,

so special, is that they are technical masters of their instruments. Right. Like, no doubt. Yeah. And they push the art that they were making forward 10 years, both of them. And there's varying degrees of that in all the people that we love and talk about. But I think with those two in particular, and I'm sure everybody has their favorites that they think.

That's what I'm saying. It's a degree of taste with what you like at this kind of stuff. I just think, man, this combination. I love it. I love it too. I mean, not to say that if you took anyone, it's not like, oh, they need each other. No, I'm just saying on this music, the balance of this record is incredible. You know, just for you, this extra track that was added on later is fine.

I was used to the flow of the six tracks. So that's why we're not listening to that one. Let's get to some categories. Okay. So our categories, we have eight categories. Yes. And we'll start with our desert island tracks. If you had one track to take from this album on a desert island, which would it be?

I would say peace. I love peace, but I mean, lonely woman is lovely as well. Peace is a great call. I have lonely woman. I think you can make an argument for either. Apex moments. What's your apex moment? Man, I love Billy Higgins.

We didn't get to it. Billy Higgins solo on focus on sanity at the end. we could maybe just play a little. And then the way, the way they end it, come back with the so-called melody. I mean, it's masterful. This soul. One of the great three drums, jazz drum souls. Really big.

Yeah. And really, you got to get, you know, the whole buildup. We won't get in all that. But, like, where this comes from, it's kind of the apex moment of this track and, like, the whole thing leading up to it is so good. That's amazing. Yeah.

You know what I have for Apex Moment? Here's what I wrote down. I mean, no, I don't. That's not what this album is about. I have that. I really think one of the... You don't like Billy and Sol is that what you're saying? I love Billy Can Sol.

No, I really think one of the striking things listening to this now. And, you know, like I said, this hit me when I was really a younger man. And I don't pull this out as much as I probably do other albums at the moment. But the way that this hit me listening to this week was that, like, you talked about, like, that Witten Band with Tain and Kenny Kirkland and Miles is at the plug-nickel. A lot of those bands have this amazing way that they apex these solos. You know, there are these incredible apex moments. I mean, or we listened to like Stevie last week and the whole album Apex is the final chord.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just incredible. Yeah. What's interesting about this is even though they're doing all this intense stuff and it's so free, it stays at this. They're so relaxed. Yeah. And it's so even.

Even as these things are happening, it is not this like intense build of this. This intense build of this. Now we break it down, this intense build of this. Everything maintains the simmer. I love it about it. That's great. Yeah, and it's like there's ebbs and flows, but there's not peaks in valleys. There's not peaks in valleys.

But there's like curves and swerves. I don't know how to describe it, but that's how I truly feel about it. But what do you got for a bespoke playlist title? I mean, I'm going to just go to the classic well. This is classic 1959. You know? Classic 1950. Yeah, I mean, you could, we've talked about and debated,

but you could just have a playlist of all music from 1959. And it would be jazz from 1959. And it would be quite varied. Yeah. What do you have? I have music that starts a riot. And you could put this with some Stravinsky. You might put this with a little bit of the clash.

You know what I mean? Like put it with a little bit of like, ooh, this is dangerous music. Right. And people are pushing back again. That's not overstated, but I got you. Quibble bits. Quibble bits. Anything you disagree with, even no matter how minute.

I mean, just, I mean, this is a silly one, no piano. That's for selfish reasons. It doesn't need it. I had a similar just. a funny one which is like could have used some chords but that's not true. Harmonetics is great but what about harmony? Yeah, what about a little?

You ever heard of a diminished chord guys? Come on. Snibometer. How snobby is this? This is one, not snobby at all? Do you want me to go first? Do you want to go first on this? I got a 10. You got a 5? This is a classic 5. If this is that, okay, how could this be?

You're saying that this is the snobbiest record of all time? It's one of the snobberiest. Dude, this is on like every top 10 jazz album It's like checking the box. That's the free weird one. Everybody knows it. I'm not going to disagree with you. Even if you say,

when Coleman is a snob, you'd be like free jazz over, shape of jazz to come. This is a very commercially successful. Okay. Am I lying? I think this music, if you don't, like you,

you even said it in the beginning of the show, you can't come into this unseasoned. You have to have listened to a lot of jazz to even understand where this is coming from. Is that what the systemometer measures? Well, that's to me, how I think about it. Yeah, like you.

a lay person who has never heard this music, if this was the first jazz they heard, they'd be like, oh, I don't understand what's going on. I know, but a snob would be like, ah, that's not even his best record. So that's why I said five. But Aunt Linda would not like this record.

Not at all. No. She would get violent. She would start a riot. Is this better? And not a quiet riot. No. Is this better than Kind of Blue?

No. But it's damn good. It's damn good, but I don't prefer it to Kind of Blue. No. Ocuchoan. Oh, think... Hmm. Better than...

It's so stupid this category. Because it's so different than Kind of Blue. It's so ridiculous to even compare them. But are we talking... If I'm just talking about my own personal listening habits, which one of I listen to more in my life? Kind of Blue wins. Yeah, for sure.

Accoutrements. I'm going eight, and I would almost go nine. But this... The topography or the font, I'm not crazy about... Oh, see, for me, that's a feature, not a bug. Well, no, no. I mean, it's so...

I mean, everything and the pictures are great, but to me, that takes away a little bit. It's good, though. I got a nine. I think it's really good. It fits the vibe of the album so well, so that's good. The only reason I don't have a 10 is because I wonder what it would be like if they let Ornette name it focus on sanity.

I know. First of all, I just love his sweater. Yeah, the sweater with the shirt tie. Yeah, and the tie's kind of hidden under the classic combination. By the way, that's an Adam Maness outfit. Ornette, even though, you know, I mean, he's playing this avant-garde music, incredible dresser. Incredibly well dressed his whole life.

Snappy dresser. I mean, I would almost push up to a nine if we're taking the title into the accoutrements. Because this is one of the... I would give the title a 10. Shape of jazz to come. Up next, what do you got?

Oh, free jazz. Perfect. Yeah. Because actually, so this is one thing I would think about. And this is why I almost equivocated on Kind of Blue, better than Kind of Blue.

This kind of music, I remember, like once you get into it and listen to this whole album like I've been doing on the LP the last few days. Yeah. Like, it makes me want more. Like, I can't listen to this and then be like,

oh, let's go listen to Time Out, B. You want more? Like, it seems, yeah, I want to go to free jazz. Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I want to go to Eric Dolfi's Out to Lunch. Out to Lunch. One of my favorite albums of all time, I discovered around the same time I discovered this album.

I love them both. They're like family to me at this point. You know what? I truly love, but I would never listen to after this. I need a Baker's Rapture. I don't know why I'm thinking of that, but we're going to throw that. Coming up next, I don't really know.

Hey, by the way, you know that we have a newsletter? If we had a newsletter, what would we call it from the You'll Hear Podcast? You'll Hear It, You'll Hear It, Diction.com. Snappy. No, it's called You'll Read it, Peter. Oh, you'll read it, of course. Yeah, you're going to get insights and behind the scenes from the show.

Go to you'll read it.com. No. Just click the link in the description to sign up for the newsletter. And yeah. Oh, we have some more notes. Oh, no, that's from the record. Hey, we were nominated for an ambi. I know, we didn't win.

It's an ambi. Is it ambience? We did not win. Shout out to 20,000 Hertz. Yeah, 20,000 Dallas and the crew. Yeah. We were some good people there. I mean, is it?

I watch the, we're going next year. Is this show good? It's pretty good. I don't know. I wish I hadn't had taken an ambient right before I watched the, that kind of threw me off a little bit. Yeah, your text got super dark. All right, till next time.

You'll hear it.