You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - The State of Music Education

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

Peter and Adam share their thoughts on what they love about the current music education landscape, and what they'd like to see changed about it.Interested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Friday's Open Studio Live Events:1:00 PM - Adam's Daily Guided Practice Session (for Members Only)3:00 PM - Piano Guided Practice Session with Adam on YouTube8:00 PM - Shelter in Place solo piano concert with Peter on YouTubeFor the rest of this week's calendar, follow this linkLet us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Peter. Hey, Adam. What's the state of my attitude right now? Louisiana. Oh. Minnesota. Layed back. Wisconsin.

Oh, a little uptight. Hawaii. Oh, yeah. Mahalo. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear Podcast. Daily music advice and inspiration and information.

Coming at you. Coming at you today, we're sponsored by Open Studio. Go to Open StudioJazz.com. for out your music education needs. And we are talking about music education today. We're talking about the state of music education and how we might make improvements to it. We just got this question.

And maybe you heard yesterday's episode. Yeah. And actually my goal today is for us to delve deep and pull out some gems on this subject. But it's also to turn your scowl into a smile by the end of this episode, if that's possible. No, no, no. You're a little hot under the collar over there, I noticed.

You know, I'm very passionate about this. What we thought we could do was talk about our role and responsibility into it. Instead of just debating what we think should happen, you know, just take a little ownership of it. We run a music education website. You know what I'm saying? The world's leading, the online jazz education. The world's award winning. That's a big claim, but I think it might be true.

Yeah. And I think we could sort of come to an understanding of what we could do to better music education. So what Peter, we were just talking before we went on air, what do we think are the biggest things lacking with sort of beginner players? What are the concepts that they, if they latched onto from the beginning, that would help them?

And are we not doing enough to reiterate that? Like, what are those concepts? Maybe I'll tackle, I mean, there's different, there's different kind of ages and times of life we come in as a beginner. Let me tackle the, like, as a kid part. Okay. Because that, to me, is always the ideal place. Sure.

to make your, at least make your connection with music. I think we all connect with music at a certain point when we're young because you hear it. And to me, you know, I like to think about like what's done well with music education with young people? Like what are the attributes that we see in common with successful and like how do we define success? A lifelong involvement and love and understanding of music. To me, that's success. It's not like, so say if you took like a middle and high school orchestra program, I wouldn't define success from that program by how many professional musicians it produced over the years.

I would define it as how many music lovers it produced over the, like what is the percentage of kids that came through that program that come out loving, in love with music, any kind of music. Totally. You know, to me, that's the thing. And so it's like in doing things, the mistakes come, the errors I think are when you take the joy. that is inherent in music. I mean, this is a beautiful, fun thing.

I mean, we talk about jazz. You talk about funk, hip hop, classical, reggaigiton. I mean, any style you name, even if it's not your cup of tea, there's people that are just passionate about it. This is like, this is great stuff. You know what I'm saying? This is the stuff that, that, like, everybody can agree on. Maybe not what style or artists.

You might be like, well, I love jazz. Well, I like Winton Kelly. Well, I like Dave Bruback or whatever. But I mean in general, it's like there's this unifying force of music and just the beauty that it is. It's just one of the greatest things in the world, I think. I'm biased. I agree. But so anything that separates humans' joy from that to me is an error in music education.

So I know this is kind of big picture and you're going to get into some very important actual issues around this. But I like to frame it with that is just like, you know, don't stamp out the joy. You know what I mean? It's like a little kid learning to walk. That's fun. We take it for granted because we can do it. But when you're first, you know, and you're like, you know, hobbling around and then, you know, the little kids, look, they get excited about it, you know. Yeah.

Well, I'll say with your big picture theme, because I do think that it's, I think it's probably the most important part, like the joy and the big picture stuff. And I think one of the things that we could work on more in music education is a sense of community. You know, the music that we play jazz is a music that's based, it's a social music, right? It is based on community. And so even though right now is a very weird time for community and connection because of the pandemic, you know, one of our goals has been to expand our community and really strengthen the connection. Yeah. Between our members and us and between our members and each other. And I think that's something that as a teacher, we should all take responsibility for to foster connection between our students and themselves and each other, you know, and between us and our students, not just as like a mentor.

mentee relationship, but as just like, you know, elders of a community or learned members of the community that can help direct and guide and show guidance, support, and really instill that joy. That's the joy you're talking about of the music. That's our job to instill.

And I think it comes in like all different forms. I'm just thinking, you know, Christian McBride, because we have the great thing of having his slightly his physical presence in the studio here with this great banner. So I'm always thinking about him. But, you know, Christian I remember did a thing where he invited some younger players,

like in their 20s into his band. And I remember at the time I was kind of like, because I was playing with him a lot. And Christian had like five different bands. And I was like, wow, why is Christian, he's not like an old dude yet. And why is he having these younger guys? And it's kind of a, it's not necessarily a hassle,

but he's got to teach him some stuff and deal with whatever. But it's like he really took on that, like there's all different times when you can take on this responsibility. it's not just when it's an online course or when it's at a university or when you're teaching a young person. Like you say, it's like the elder statesman thing

can come in many different forms at different times. It's not just, you know, Barry Harris showing all of us that are younger than him, which is every pianist at this point. Yeah, absolutely. You know, his hip voicing, there's that

and he's taken, but he's been doing that for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's been speaking out, speaking the truth on the drop two, as we know for a long time. So I think that, you know, it's very inspiring when we see

and when we do take that, on in our own ways to help along to be communal, you know, to spread the love, to, it takes a village and all that. And this is a communal music. And I mean, we're, we're constantly reminded as we speak to each other through plexiglass here. I feel like I'm going to be Ronald Reagan. Tear down this wall. Tear down this plexiglass wall. But that, you know, we have to, I think, be even more vigilant during this time about maintaining the community aspect. I agree, man. Yeah, I think it's really important. Well, so let's get into some kind of nuts and bolts. Maybe for beginners, I think the first thing that for most beginners of

jazz that, at least that I deal with here at open studio, if I had any advice to beginners, it would be to really get out of the page, to get off of the notation. This is what we were talking about with one of our watchers on YouTube buzz. We had a really nice conversation where you said I got a little heated. I just get a little, you know, I get very passionate about this, but I do think that there's not a good balance in our current education system via reading music versus learning by ear. I know you grew up with Suzuki, which is amazing because that's all learning by ear

and a lot of people learn by soul fesge and things like that. And that is, I think, something that is missing. It was missing as an education, music education for me when I was a kid. I was lucky enough to have a really great elementary music teacher who focused on singing a lot, which is really great for your musicality. but even just, you know, as a beginner pianist

and doing things like... You were deep into the page from the beginning on the piano? Well, during, in my formal piano lessons. Now, I came at music. Did you wear a tuxedo? You were your last? Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, you know, when it was, and she was a very sweet lady,

and I don't mean that she was teaching me the way she learned. It's not, not a... Yeah. But this is what I'm saying. The system itself could use some adjusting because, you know, the music that I wanted to play was not on a page, right?

It was, when I was, you know, eight, it was the Beach Boys and the Beatles and pop music. But maybe you got a combination. I'm just thinking because really, I did do Suzuki, but I was also reading music really because I was interested in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with learning.

No, no, but maybe you got, and a lot of us, we maybe got a combination that maybe works in terms of like the so-called formal piano. Yeah. You know, with the technical stuff and learning to read music and these things, fingering. But also that inquisitiveness, as long as nobody stamps that. out. As long as, I hear beach,

try to play something by year for a lot of guys and gals it's like playing in church where you have to kind of just hear the music. There is no score. So it's like you're forced

to, and then that develops you. Like there's all different ways to get there. But ultimately that combination, I think of skills, especially for piano, even more so than reading.

We talk about that. You can pick that up at any time theoretically. But the technical side, if you get a really good foundation from that, from a really good teacher, that can be invaluable.

That can be very valuable. But, If you want to learn, let's say you want to learn voicings, right? Yeah. And you just are going towards books with it as opposed to developing your ears. That's only going to take you so far. You're learning jazz piano voicings out of a book as opposed to trying to hear them or learn from a teacher or a mentor. Yeah.

That can be, I think, counterproductive to actually learning how the music should be played and learning how the voicing should sound. because they weren't passed down via sheet music often. It was developed over time, you know, player to player. So for me, I think trying to learn a music that really wasn't passed down via notation, learning it via notation is a little bit like, you know, learning, like watching a movie from reading a script or something. Right. It's just not the same.

And it's not the most precise because we're kind of using another kind of technology. Right. Or written apparatus and, you know, mode. of documenting sound that was not originally developed for the music that we're actually using it for. I mean, it's been redeveloped a little bit, you know. But because of that, it can lead to, if it at a minimum is combined with a whole lot of listening

and the communal part, like not only listen to recordings, but like listening to actual great players in person, which thankfully exists all over the world now. You can't be like, oh, once I get to New York, I'm gonna start listening. And it's a problem with younger people, I'm saying sometimes now is that they think that they can get everything online. So they're like, oh, well, I'm not going to go out of my way to try to chase down Adam Manus when I go to St. Louis.

Because I've seen all his stuff on YouTube or whatever. Whereas before, it's like you had to go hear you live if you wanted to kind of get what your thing or whatever. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a big part of it. It is. Yeah. But I think a lot of people are aggressive in terms of seeking out that information.

Good stuff, man. So what's your thing on like, so you're saying you don't sit at home studying, studying, Dan Kenton scores? That's not an activity that you do? No, this is a, that's a whole other thing. I don't, but that's all, you know, no, I've done plenty of score study because I think there's lots to be learned about how to, you know, build a chord with an orchestra or a big band. That's different than listening to a piano voicing.

Again, if you could, if you could transcribe that chord on a big band with your ears, you would also get that information. Right. You would learn something else besides that. You would become, I mean, imagine the greatest musician you've ever met. wouldn't they be able to pick out a chord from a big band by listening to it, not just by reading it on page? Not all the time.

I don't know if Katie Perry does Big Man, but I'm imagining that. Okay, go ahead. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. No, but I do think there's a place, of course, for notation and score study. I'm just not sure if that place is learning about jazz improvisation.

Right. You know, there's so much of jazz improvisation. I mean, you and I both played with the great Willie Aiken's who talk about, like, being generous with his time and forming. really generations of communities around him. He's a great local St. Louis tenor saxophonist who passed away a couple of years ago who really everybody played with him

or came through his band, especially if you were a rhythm section player. Right. And, you know, he would stay things like, you know, he actually would show me some chord voicings. And then I would go on the gig, you know, after he showed it to me and play them. And he would be like, no, don't do that there.

Right. You know, but that's important information to happen. That's like communal side. That's a communal side. Like, yeah, there's a voicing. But it doesn't work. here. It specifically works here or works, you know, like that kind of information can't be, it's hard to translate that from just reading voicing in a book or something. Well, I think that's

what I mentioned at the beginning about Christian McBride, you know, being generous with his time and giving some younger, some of these really good, you know, I know these are great players. He wasn't compromising at all. You're talking about Christian Sands and Ulysses and Zones and great players, Emma Cohen. But, you know, for him, I think he took on that same kind of thing. like he got a lot, Christian got a lot out of, you know, maybe not telling them voicing, but be like, wait, don't play this, you know, you know, that kind of passing down of the information and saw that link how important that is, you know. Yeah.

And I think, you know, Willie Akins, we could talk about, you know, him being one of the finest, I don't know if he ever officially taught in his school or anything, but he's probably one of the best jazz educators in St. Louis. Oh, 100%. You know, think about you and me and, what, Rob Block and Montez and all the different people they came up in that band at different times. And then him mentioned these things. These are some of the most invaluable lessons.

Yeah, absolutely. And he didn't hand you a score to his? He did not hand the score, although he had a suitcase full of lead sheets that I wish I had. Right, right. One other thing I was just thinking about the scores, too, like how you can see. Like, if we think about one of our most prolific composers

of big band in jazz, I mean, probably Duke Ellington, if not Count Basie would come to mind, certainly as one of the top, if not the top one. And if you've ever played, I've played some Duke Gallington transcriptions when I was working with the jazz

at Lincoln Center Orchestra. Hoity tooty. And there is not the kind of information. And look, Duke Gallatin was great at writing and putting that on the page. As good as you can do it for jazz. I mean, he was a master of that. Like he had very advanced techniques

in terms of scoring things. But, you know, if you heard the way that the Duke Allington band played, there was so much that wasn't on the page, not because he didn't know how to play. put it just because it couldn't be put there or he would kind of try to make up different ways to put it whereas i don't know because like a beethoven symphony we don't have a recording from that time so it's hard to ever reference but it seems like that system works better for explaining

that style of music than it does to work for duke allenington style so thankfully we have the recordings you know we have video and you know duke gallington and we have people that we know you know like my parents saw the duke gallington band live you know um so i i think that that that's That's kind of the proof is in the pudding there in terms of how much can really be laid out. I mean, not to say that Duke Gallington scores are great and you can learn a lot about composing and arranging.

But it only gets you so far. It only gets you so far. Whereas, I mean, you can't really make a comparison with Beethoven and a Bach because it only gets you so far there too, but that's as far as you can go. That's as far as you go. Yeah, like to hear a recording of them playing it. Exactly.

To know. Yeah, exactly. What we're missing, you know? Why, you got one? I wish. You got a time machine, brew? I wish. I had a time.

I should go invest in some... You'd like to go back an hour and get back into that conversation again, wouldn't you? No, that was good. That was one of the best discussions. I think we've had. That's right. And I'm glad we had this follow-up episode,

a follow-up episode because it was nice to kind of take some ownership of our role in that education side. Right, which we shirked a little bit. And hey, you know what? Let us know how you want music education to go. I'm curious to hear everybody's thoughts. It's always a great conversation to keep going

because we actually have the power now to shape how it. it might, at least in our own little universe, how it might work. So let us know how you're digging open studio and what we can do to help you. That's right. That's right. So until tomorrow. You'll hear it.