You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Things I Wish I Were Told

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

It's a special edition of You'll Hear It today as Open Studio bass guru Bob DeBoo and jazz bass master Reuben Rogers discuss some tips they wish they were told when first starting out.Things I Wish I Were ToldHave a consistent teacher/mentorLearn pianoRecord yourself and listen backPositionsPlay along with recordsBe comfortable playing other bassesInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Welcome to You'll Hear It. Jazz advice for people that want it. This is a bass-centric thing here. We're going to make sure it's a lot different from those other funny guys that do this. You Harris, though. Welcome to the bass takeover. You'll hear it with Ruben Rogers. My name is Bob DeBoo.

We're so glad to be here. Yeah. It's good to see you. How you doing, Rob? See you. Here you, Bob. Yeah. you know so what i forget what our topic is today what is it now we're doing what how do we

so this is a beautiful topic that reuben you brought up um and i think it's great i'm so excited to talk about it it's um for lack of a a more it's a loquacious title things i wish i were told right right right so just like that something you know things i wish i knew the young rubin knew and then i'm really old that's for sure uh or at least was my my My coat tail was pulled a little bit more. Of course, you have to live and learn, you know, accordingly, you know, and you can't get too ahead of yourself. But there's definitely some things that I probably would put in my ear

and or somebody just tapped me on my shoulder to like, you know what? This will help you along. These few things will help you along and you will develop probably a little faster. And, you know, you know, some different music might be able to come out if you just follow some of these things, you know. Yes. Yeah. So we have six things. that fall under that category today.

Yeah, the first one we have listed is to have a consistent mentor or teacher. Right, right, no doubt. I mean, I came up with that mainly because I think that whole thing where bass players or bassists, most bass, especially jazz basses, well, not just jazz basses, but, you know, whatever genre, you know, after you learn to play the bass, you know, a few frets or positions. you have a gig like a week later, right? You know what I mean? It's like that demand for that, you know, that bottom is, is a few are chosen and few people,

few people want to do it, right? So you have a gig right away. And the problem happens a lot of times that we just fall into our, you know, bad habits of learning on the gig. And, you know, sometimes that's good and bad and not really getting back to trying to like really better ourselves as, as musicians, you know, as basses. And I just want to raise that flag to try and keep some consistency, you know,

with your tutelage. You're trying to, a consistent teacher is always great because they can follow your development. And what the mentor part is just also, even if you don't have a bass teacher, someone who, you know, who has, you know, that has, how you can say, has your back almost, you know, or can, you know, has an air, you know, will lend an air. to hear what you have to say and that you trust and you hope you can you know really yeah share your deep thoughts and ask questions right you can ask anything maybe you can hear it here's something honestly back from them too the honesty in this relationship what's your experience with that

i mean with with teaching and did you have a consistent teacher growing up at all i did but never um never that long honestly i had teachers i had uh um mike blanco was one of my first teachers when i was in Texas and he really took me under his wing. You guys know each other yes. And he really, you know, started whipping me into shape when I was in high school and I was really blessed to do that. So I got some great advice from him. But I fell into the same thing that you had just discussed where we end up on gigs and we, you know, like, we've got to, you know, like, we've got a, you know, it's like, okay, I've got, I've got this, you know, like, I'm just going to learn on the stand was my mentality and learn everything. Right. And I think the shift, the shift from a bass teacher

into like a mentor, more having a mentor like somebody that we play with regularly, that really play a bunch with. Or you learn from the stand. Here in St. Louis, a gentleman like that would be like Willie Aiken's great tenor player who's been, you know, a staple in the scene out here and it's seen a whole bunch. And you can learn a lot, a lot about music from folks like that. Yeah. I mean, I was fortunate also even just growing up in St. Thomas having that actually, which was

interesting. I guess I had more of a mentor before I had a bass teacher. You know, his name is Louis Taylor. He was, you know, he actually heard me playing my high school band combo and it was like, hmm, there's

something to this young man. And he went to my school teacher, to my band director who's also a huge mentor of mine and said, can I, can I know this young man's number? or his parents so that I can

see if he can do some gigs. And of course, my parents, I mean, I was a youngster, and I was maybe 14 years or something. My mother, my mother and father like, hell no, we're not going to have a, our young kid in bars and playing these funny

places. And it took a little while. It took a good year, because, you know, I came from a very religious background. But because of Lewis Taylor, that, what you just said, I was able to get on the bandstand right away and learn from from him, you know, he'd be like, you know, this tune. I'm like, no, I don't know any tunes.

He's like, well, just watch. Just follow, follow it. You'll hear it. You'll hear it. Yeah. Well, watch that left hand. Exactly. But now, I've been wondering this too.

And, you know, we definitely will get to the next topics too. But as I get older, you know, I've, I've not had a consistent bass teacher. I've studied with people, like here in St. Louis, I've studied with, you know, symphony bassists and really tried to learn that way. but it seems like it's a different situation getting older and having a mentor because now I'm kind of flipping the role a little bit to where I do more teaching. Well, that's the biggest thing, especially in this day and age where it's so much, it's so easy to actually not, it's so easy to have a teacher and whether you like it being in person or, I mean, obviously we're in a pandemic now, but, you know, doing it over Zoom, it's actually a lot easier than it was to get some tutelage from someone. You know what I mean? And you just got to want it.

You know what I mean? I mean, trust me, there's so many things that I've been saying that to myself. I haven't moved my butt to do it what I'm saying right now. But it's in my head. It's in, I want to get back into whatever that is, you know, whatever that's going to be. And I just put just also, I mean, life happens, right? You know, we're fathers. We've got responsibilities.

That's not an excuse, but I'm also talking about, you know, the young who don't have any any responsibility and has, you know, have a little bit more time on their hands and be able to, you know, just to seek out that, you know, that teacher is much more. Absolutely. I think being open to it, too. I heard a great phrase, and I'm going to miss, I'm going to not say it correctly, but you'll find your teacher when you're ready to find your teacher. Or you'll find your mentor, the right mentor when you're prepared to find your right mentor.

Do you know what I mean? Like, so we've got to be ready. We've got to be open to that and searching. And just, yeah, open to it and just something consistent. That's the main thing. Absolutely. Anyway, but let's, moving on to the next topic. Number two.

What, I may ask you the question first. What piano experience do you have? What piano playing experience, you know, away from the bass do you have? What's your history with that? I've not quite done my first solo piano gig yet. I'll put it that way. I really enjoy playing piano. It's great to see, you know, like to have all of these, all of the sounds available,

and you don't have to wear out your hand playing bass all day, and you can hear the harmony, like immediately. I began studying piano when I went to first the University of North Texas, basically because they force you to. You know, you have to, if you're in the jazz studies program, you have to take jazz piano basics course and learning left-hand. shells and learning scales and fingerings and all that stuff. Okay.

And it's, I don't think I would have, you know, I think I would be a completely different basis if I had not delved into the piano and started to hear harmony and really try to like understand like what it is I'm hearing on the piano and see all that happen at once for playing tunes, for changing keys, you know, like doing all sorts of stuff away from the bass. The trick for me was- So would you say? sorry. So the trick for me was, you know, when I get all this stuff down on the piano,

moving that to the bass. You know what I mean? Like really seeing and hearing all that harmony, but then, okay, that's great on the piano, but it needs to come to the base, you know? Exactly. Yep. Yep. I mean, so, I mean, so you have a much different experience. I mean, besides the matter of fact that I was, you know, a lazy bum, when I was in teacher, aside when I was in school at Berkeley, it wasn't really driven home. I did have a piano, a jazz piano course also, but I didn't really get deep.

You know what I mean? I was always trying to run to the base and figure it out out. And I don't feel it was really driven home that we remember you should spend a little bit more time on the base until many years later, many years later, like where I could just sit at the piano. And not just from trying to deal with the bass, trying to take it from the bass, but also compositionally being able to have that orchestra right at your hands and trying to just bobbing, just go through.

It's just a different instrument and just opens your ears up so much more. And, you know, I'm not trying to say we got to be able to play a solo piano gig, but, you know, being able to actually be able to accompany some people, that, you know, a company, at least being able to do that at some, at some, in some capacity, I think it's something that you should be able to strive for. I feel like I haven't done that in so long. I probably am very sad at it right now. But I look forward to try and do more even now.

It can only help us, yeah, for sure. You know, the thought just occurred to me too. We were talking about piano. And I think the same is true of being able to play some drums. Understanding, you know, because we have such a close connection with pianists and guitar players. course. And inside of the rhythm section, understanding how the drums, like what all the instruments are in the instrument of the drum set and how they work and how we fit into that. It's just, I think that's important too. So play some drums too. Yeah. What about number three? All right.

Number three, this is record yourself and listen back to yourself. I think this is one of the best teachers personally for me. And it still kicks me in the butt. Listening back. And, And being... And when you say record yourself, so I'm clear about it. You say record yourself from gigs. I mean, obviously that's not happening now, but record yourself from gigs, record yourself while you practice. What do you do?

Yeah. I think recording myself, particularly when I'm writing something on the base, I'll record myself back and listen. But if I'm, yeah, on a gig. If I'm at a jam session on the phone, I'll press record. on the drive back home, I'll listen to it. You know what I mean? You know, I won't always listen to the whole thing.

But if I listen for my, how, you know, like, do I sound comfortable? Do I sound like what I want to hear, do you know? And taking and not being super, you know, judgmental about it, but listening with open ears, you know, and understanding that that's, you're doing it to understand your own playing a little, my own playing a little bit better. I want to take this. I want to cut this. this is cool right well I think yeah that's I mean that that that's a good way to go about it you know you're saying especially the part where you just said you listen but you probably don't listen to the whole thing because I remember I've gone in and out of different

phases of doing that myself of of recording myself over over the years and I would I was even obsessed to the point of course you know I mean I'm going to through many discs to that's through digital recording on your moon on me up going through it all right so it's like it's it's crazy actually how much i even during this pandemic i was i was uh transferring from minidiscs to to some kind of digital really you were getting the old minidisks out and like putting those on to get good exactly and it was crazy how much how much recorded music i've had i bet you have some gold i want to dig around in that collection yeah I mean, from, I mean, when I used to play with Nicholas Payton and that band, I have countless mini-disc there.

Obviously, I can see when I purchased it, you know what I mean? Because it was a new toy, so I was doing it a lot, you know, with Josh Redmond and stuff. I have some, you know, some gigs with Mulgroom Miller with Benny Green, Jackie McLean, who else, Warhol Grove, even when Marcellus and his group. I have a lot. Anyway, I'm here. But no, it should be so we're coming from different perspectives. You know, I don't have that back on.

So listening back is different from me. But what was interesting is what it has helped me because a lot of that stuff I hadn't listened to for what? For 20 years maybe. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So it actually gave me some perspective from then until now, which is what? was like, whoa. Some was like, wow, I'm so much better.

And some was like, why don't I play like that? Oh, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, from gig to gig group to group, I was like, what did I? Oh, man, am I old? I'm missing something now. What? You sound fresh and hungry and good. But also the biggest part about recording yourself.

You touched on it, not being too hard on yourself. and also realizing it's all a process, you know what I mean? And it could be anything in that recording, in that moment that happened that made you play a certain kind of way. But of course, we're just all looking for some kind of consistency. You know what I mean? And you hope to hear that as you record yourself, just find some, you know, those little things. Okay, that's what you're looking for. The inconsistent parts is like, okay, I can hear that I'm pretty inconsistent in this key.

I'm in, I'm very inconsistent in this position. Whenever I go here, not the things that you sound good on, but the things that there are not that great. You know, that's the biggest part too, right? Because you listen, you're like, oh, I mean, I want to go to my solo. You're right. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, we need to hear that stuff. And, you know, that's, you know, that's the best teacher, I think that there is.

One of the best teachers that there is, for sure. No doubt. Yeah. No doubt. All right, let's move on to the next one. It's positions. Yeah, number four. Positions.

Yeah. Number four. I mean, this is a broad topic. All this comes from, all of this comes from a guy who had some teaching and some tutelage coming up, but also learned a lot from just playing gigs. Right. You know, this is one. And I feel like a lot of our.

listeners who are bass players or whatever I would say I want to say maybe in the 21st centuries not as much I was going to say 50% of the people probably are coming from that like I didn't really I studied but I didn't study it but you know but all of us probably started just jumped got you know just jumped into the fire really quick and I wish I was told to really hone in on you know that my fourth to seventh position you know that right that from that like we're talking about smandle positions right smandle positions sorry yes that that that was the other thing i was going to get at that like knowing the nanny knowing that the smandals knowing i mean people have their own you know

where bob has his thing he goes there all these different schools of of thought but honing what works for you and what you want to use because you know it's that's the most important part too So first of all, I knew very little about the technicality, about positions when I was, you know, really starting to play a lot. I didn't care anything about it to tell you, truth. You know what I mean? Even though I had a teacher tapping my life, you need to know what you knew. But I was like, whatever, I got to make this gig. You don't forget that.

But the more I played, the more I was like, oh, shoot, I need to figure this out and really be fluid. That's what I'm trying to say. be fluid in those positions. Right. Like, really know how to play up, you know, across the strings in between, you know, for bass players, you know, around that D on the G string, right?

To the G, right at thumb position. All the notes going, you know, cross. Down the D-A and E strings as well, right? Like that L.B and C. Yeah. Just stay in there as much as you possibly can and really hone that, that part of the instrument. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so, so, so, so, so important.

I mean, there's, there's, there's a, a great book by Ron Carter, too, that's out not that long ago where he's going through all the positions and he's writing etudes based around it and talking about checking your, it's not coming from the, the crusty old Smandal book or whatever, you know, it's like it's Ron Carter telling us we should be studying our positions. If Ron Carter says it, I'm going to study it. Do you know what I mean? Who wouldn't, who else would know better? And so I think that's a great resource too. Ron Carter has some great publications out. I also have a, I'm going to self-promote just a bit. I just recorded a new course called Where Are the Notes

That'll be coming out in the next couple months. Where we go through all the positions. Yeah, exactly. We go across the E-A-D and G-String. Oh, nice. You know, why y'all don't send me that? It's on the way. That's messed up.

Well, literally somebody had asked where, this is great, Bob, but where are the notes? And I was like, yep, there we go. We need to know. but yeah you know and that's the whole thing too right even even when basses think they don't know they don't know you know know we don't know i don't want to put myself i'm part of the community to you know sometimes we think we know we don't know and especially that muscle memory also right if you don't do it over and over and over and over and over that muscle memory will just start to get weak and yeah and then you have to come back if you the more you do it just like you play in first of how you're you're

high position in that all day learn to be in those positions so that Muslim memory will just be there it'll just become second nature when you're talking about say you're in fifth position when you talk about knowing them better do you literally mean just play in that

position and explore for a long time play scales like find bass lines right melodies yes yes yes yeah yes just dig in just and just dig in I mean even if it's even if it's just playing around I mean I'm just talking about just just exploring the instrument, not even doing anything that's, you know, quote-unquote musical,

even though everything we do, we want to be as musical as possible. But, I mean, just staying there, just figuring it out, you know, if it's uncomfortable or if it's not. For sure. And my intonation in that area, that's hard. And to get those notes to sound good, yeah. Exactly. All right. We got number five, number five, play along with records and learn tunes, learn compositions,

recordings instead of like say a lead sheet so I think playing along with records is is a fantastic thing and I remember hearing that you know a long time ago so it's you know it's but not really doing it not for following through it's kind of the mentality of okay I'm on the gig these cats are playing these changes they're reading this chart yep why would I need to learn you know this person's arrangement so what do you think about what's your same same thing I'm a culprit when I didn't do that a whole lot coming coming up and I definitely have done it more over the years,

especially trying to pick out melodies, actually. I've been trying to definitely, especially this probably one of the things I've been doing more during the pandemic, it's just trying to play more melodies, you know. And I would find myself listening to this one record and be like, I don't know what is that right. Let me go to this other recording. I mean, that's the beauty of having being able to stream from the 70,000.

Isn't that insane? Services that we have, right? Just put in the name of the song and it's just, you know, I'm like, oh, shit, this is good and bad. So I can go through this, you know, Nat King Cole singing, Billy Holiday, I don't know, Chet Baker. It could be random brand-mal outcome sometimes. I'm like, okay, let me hear this version, you know. And I'm like, whatever, you know, really resonates. me I might go and and and and from time to time of course there would be a lot of there

be arrangements or whatever but I you can you can listen to maybe three or four recordings and they'll have very similar parts or similar core changes or melody you know notes with some inflections then you you you just go you know you gravitate to us what sounds best but you have that that point of reference though too you know you know these different versions and it's not just the one that everybody's drawing from that Maybe is right, maybe is not, which doesn't matter, but you know the different options that are out there and how to, you know, that you could be on the bandstand and this chord could not necessarily always be that chord. Like there's going to be a different, there's going to be a different thing that go on that happens. Early on in the pandemic, I was all about the electric bass.

And for whatever reason, all about like Michael McDonald's. I was like sitting there playing Michael McDonald's melodies like with him singing. I was like loop, loop. Keep forgetting, nod in love. know like whatever just like playing because i was like i want to be able to sing like on the bass when i'm playing these melodies and i was like there you go man it was just fun too you know so play along playing along recordings especially when we're locked in you know in the room by ourselves you know there's music there that's funny i talk about the singing with melody

somebody told me i mean i guess organically just started doing it over many years but uh we don't have unless with boeing of course we don't have the luxury of being able to sustain notes or being able to swell notes or do the same kind of things like, uh, sure. Yeah, yeah. With pittsacado or just a lot of nuances that are horn players or, or, with a breath. Vocalists, yeah, vocalists are able to do.

But I think purposely I've been trying to do that, just see what I can do with pits, just with my left hand or right hand, more and more. and I'm always gravitated towards what, how would a singer go about doing this? Or how could I, you know, articulate it in that way? Even though it's not going to sound the same, we could try and strive to get there somehow.

Yes. You know? Yeah. You know, so that's great that you, you know, so we're coming from the same, I love that. Same skill there. I want to hear you doing that too, man.

And the phrasing of melodies, too. That's something, you can't read that. You can't read that. No. No, that's the magic, right? Beautiful. All right. What else we got here?

Number six. We made it to number six. What's that? All right. So I've got comfortable, being comfortable playing other bases. This is one from you. Yeah. So go first.

You're like, you go. You go. I don't want to talk about it. Well, I mean, it comes from, first of all, being re-spoiled. I started traveling my base from 95, 94-95 is when I started traveling. like consistently I guess with my base and that was the norm then

that was the norm and it continued to be norm I mean I guess until I want to say 9-11 or something like that and but to tell you true it continued to be the norm for me for many years after that only maybe a few years ago did I stop really

traveling my base maybe five years ago only because I was spoiled a lot of folks I would play with that were cool, you know, with paying the overages, or to tell you truth, I got really savvy that I didn't have to. I had status on, you know,

for airlines, this and that, I would find a way to make sure that I didn't have to pay much or it wasn't that much of a hassle. But what also, that did, and I think we all can, you know, accomplish of this, it made me almost dependent

on my instrument, I mean, mentally, you know what I mean? That I didn't feel, as good playing on other people's instrument because I was so consistently playing on my own. So it was a crutch in a way. It was a small crutch. I didn't realize it over the years, but I would, I could feel my, I wouldn't say it was

anxiety, like to sit in on a base, but I knew that I wasn't put my best foot forward if I was playing somebody else's base in the back of, even though it was, it's all here. It's all here, but I was psyching myself out a lot of times. I can relate. You know, here. You know what I mean? And I think that's a very common thing that happens, right? And it shouldn't be that way.

It shouldn't really be that way. Trust in your technique and whatever, what ended up happening for me. Once I stopped, I made a conscious effort that, you know what? I'm not going to break my base anymore. Things just opened up so. I got so much more confident by just doing it. I got so much more confident playing any instrument. And it's funny.

And I would have my colleagues say, like, wow, you know, it's interesting how you, different music comes out when you play different instruments. You know what I mean? You kind of figure out, yes, you figure out the limitations the instrument have or the limitations you have with that particular instrument. You know what I mean? And that's okay. You know how to sculpt the music a certain way, be able to, you stay in your own. lane, you know, you know, and some instruments you'd be like be able to let go a little bit more. And that's all part of it, you know, and I really, I'm happy that I got to that point even so

late in my development, I guess in my career, whatever you say, that I was like, okay, this is, this is another day, here we go, you know, I really make me feel good. And the other thing I do sometimes when I have these base camps, I have, I have, I mean, I haven't done in some years now, but what I would try to have the students do is it's exchange bases at least for a day. Really? Right? Yeah, yeah.

Cool. Like, exchange, you know, if everyone was cool and usually everyone was cool. Or at least not everyone would do it. Some guys would do it. I was like, what is it? Is it cool if you all just exchange, you'll go in your ensembles and play someone else's bass for the day? Because this is a luxury to have all of us here together at once. Let's be uncomfortable for a day.

too. You know, you might, you know what I mean? It's okay, you know, and use that as, you know, fuel to develop that part of, because it is a part, it is a part of our development, be able to play other instruments and be confident on it. Beautiful. I love that. Yeah, and embracing that uncomfortableness, perhaps. Just no. Embrace it. It's a part of it. Yeah. I mean, but we, disclaimer too, we talk about basses, upright bases, and there's some really hard to play upright bases out there. You could be the setup's very, very, drag. Whether the action is super high, super low, notes, you know, all the kinds of things. I'll tell you, I have a couple of embarrassing stories about getting on somebody else's instrument a couple of times.

Early on, that really almost, you know, it most broke me. Oh, no. Like, that kind of thing. Like, people are like, oh, God, we've got to end this song. Oh, no, wow. And I play this instrument. Oh, yeah. What was like the over, like, what was the gist of the story?

Like, what was up with the bass? It was hard to play. It was action, you know, rest in peace was Dwayne Burno's base. You know, great Dwayne Barna, who got on his base, man. And wow, I tried to, so what? They called it. And I was like, they were like, I was like, yeah.

I could not get through it. And basically I had to just hang my head after, you know, everyone basically needed to get off. They ended that song quickly. Oh, man. Oh, man. This is my first, this was my first. this was my first trip my first like get it coming to new york actually i was on my way to berkeley

actually and i stopped in new york and yeah oh wow yeah oh what a scene i was like i was like that's never going to happen to me ever again see i had the one of the first one that comes to my mind is an opposite thing where i got on another basis base and i forget where we were but um i sat in and the action was so low that i you know i was like i'm not used to this i can't get my finger around this. How do you... You couldn't get under... You know, I can't get a sound. I feel like I can't get a sound out of this. Nobody's hearing this, you know? And I was just like, I give up.

What do I do? You know? I've had that happen too. I've had that happen too. That's crazy. But I love it. Get comfortable with other bases. Absolutely. Make music. And that means, you know, even if you don't have someone else's bass, just be cool to sit in on any instrument. Absolutely. Yeah.

When the time comes that you're able to get to jam sessions, I mean, a lot of people do it, but there's a lot of bass, but there's a lot of bass players who are afraid to do it because of that. You know, that's a real thing. They're like, I ain't getting up there on. Yeah. I want to sound good all the time on my experience. Exactly. And from somebody that,

you know, like when I go out somewhere to play a gig, I don't usually have a, I don't bring my bass. I don't bring my base. And you show up and sometimes there's a base available and we're grateful to have it but sometimes it's tough. Right. Sometimes it's not easy to play. But I learned really quickly don't complain about the bass.

Make music. You know, just like, it's just, that's what you get. Make the best of it, enjoy it, you know. Because ain't nobody else care about that. Right. They're like, look, there's a base there to play. We don't care if it's only, what? There's only two strings on there?

We don't care to play, let's go. Make it sound good. Absolutely. I love it. That's a great one, though. Great one. Anyway, well, this has been fun, Bob. Absolutely.

I guess we'll definitely do this some more. Beautiful. If you're cool with that. Absolutely. I love that. Look forward to the next one. Things I wish I were told back earlier on in our careers. Yeah, I love it.

Thanks, Rubin. All right, peace. All right, Bob. Peace.